TriniTuner.com  |  Latest Event:  

Forums

understanding the qr20 motor

Sunny to Skyline - SR20, CA18, RB20-26, VG30 etc.

Moderator: 3ne2nr Mods

User avatar
smokey1275
I LUV THIS PLACE
Posts: 906
Joined: September 9th, 2005, 8:30 pm
Location: hitting the revlimiter , shifting into 5th

understanding the qr20 motor

Postby smokey1275 » February 10th, 2006, 8:41 pm

At the heart of every great Nissan is a powerful engine. Nissan powerplants are consistently high-quality and brutishly overbuilt, leaving copious headroom for power-hungry tuners. Strong Nissan powerplants are something of a tradition, going back over 30 years to the stout L-series in the 510 and 240Z. In recent years, of course, the SR20DE has been the Nissan tuner's canvas of choice, offering the potential for extraordinary horsepower, despite what might appear to be average performance in stock form. With this strong tradition, the arrival of a new Nissan powerplant is cause for celebration, and just a little trepidation.

1
Experience is the fertile soil in which horsepower is grown, and the SR20DE benefits from 10 years of tuners' trial and error. With the new QR25DE, all that accumulated knowledge is gone. With that in mind, we took an especially close look at the new engine to help jump-start the learning process.

The QR25DE was designed to eventually replace both the SR20DE and the KA24DE used in the Altima. To succeed in this dual role, it had to be light and powerful like the SR20, and fuel efficient and torquey like the KA24DE.

Lightness was achieved by using a thin-wall die-cast aluminum block. Both the SR20 and KA24 were sand cast, which essentially means an engine-block-shaped cavity is carved out of sand before molten aluminum (or iron in the case of the KA24) is poured into the hole. Sand blanks used to form complex internal structures like the water jackets are then washed out, leaving the completed part.

2
Sand is not a very precise material, so sand-cast parts have to be made extra thick to allow for shifting of the blanks. Sand casting's big advantage is it can be trapped in place and then washed out, allowing tremendous flexibility for making strange shapes. Die casting means the block is formed by pouring molten aluminum into a metal die. The die is far more precise, allowing for a thinner final product, but since the die has to be pulled off as a solid piece, the water jackets have to be open on top. The end result is an open deck design like most modern Honda and Toyota engines.

Open deck blocks are lighter, offer better cylinder temperature control, and because the cylinders don't warp when the head bolts are torqued, they are easier to bore perfectly round. The downside is they can be fragile when pushed far beyond their design limit. Excessive cylinder pressure can cause the bores to shift ,or in the worst case, crack. The solution is to weld in an insert that connects the top of the bores with the external block structure, or to integrate that structure into a new cylinder liner. While there are many advantages, the open-deck design of the QR25 may make truly extreme performance one step more difficult.

3
The net result of this thin-wall construction, however, is light weight. Despite its larger displacement, the new enigne is 13 percent lighter than the SR20DE and over 20 percent lighter than the KA24DE. Compact construction means it's also 30mm shorter than the SR20.

The 2488cc of displacement is achieved with a relatively small 89mm bore and a huge 100mm stroke. For reference, the SR20 uses an 86mm bore and 86mm stroke, and Subaru's 2,457cc EJ25 uses a huge 99.5mm bore and a much shorter 79mm stroke. The relatively small combustion chamber from the 89mm bore makes emissions control easier, and the long stroke helps achieve the torque goals. The connecting rod is 163mm long, giving a 1.63:1 rod/stroke ratio.

4
Looking closely at the piston in photo #1, you can see the gap between the first and second compression rings is very big. The oil control ring and the second compression ring are both in the conventional location, but the top compression ring has been moved higher to reduce the volume of gasses trapped between the cylinder wall and the piston above the top ring--a common source of hydrocarbon emissions. This does make the ring land (the piston material above the first ring) thinner and possibly less resistant to the pounding of detonation. That's just one more reason to tune carefully when you turbocharge.

A four cylinder this big will tend to have obnoxious secondary vibrations. To eliminate this, the QR25 is fitted with twin, counterrotating balance shafts mounted in the top of the oil pan directly under cylinder #1. The balance shafts, shown in photo #2, spin at twice the speed of the crankshaft, but this, in itself, does not limit the safe rpm limit of the engine. The balance shafts themselves would be safe spinning past 20,000 rpm, according to the QR25's lead engineer, Shunichi Inamijima. The rest of the engine may fly apart, but the balance shafts would be fine.

5
The crankshaft, in standard Nissan practice, is forged for maximum strength and micropolished to minimize friction. Instead of a main bearing bridge like most SR20s use, the block is split at the crank centerline and the five main bearings are incorporated into the bottom half of the crankcase. This has become fairly common practice, and is generally considered to be the most rigid way to construct the crankcase. The number 1, 3, and 5 main bearing caps are iron, while number 2 and 4 are aluminum. The iron caps are cast in place in the aluminum lower crankcase.

Up top, air enters through a drive-by-wire throttle body, shown in photo #3. Instead of a throttle cable, there is simply a sensor on the gas pedal and a small motor on the throttle plate. Between them is the computer, and like many drive-by-wire systems, there is no direct relationship between your foot position and the throttle position. Push down 50 percent on the pedal, for instance, and the ECU will open the throttle the appropriate amount to give you 50 percent of the torque available. That may mean a 30 percent throttle opening, or it may mean 80 percent, but you'll never know.

6
Interestingly, although the rev limiter could be implemented by simply having the ECU close the throttle (as Porsche does), that was deemed too smooth, so the rev limiter is done conventionally, by shutting down the fuel injectors.

Being drive-by-wire in itself doesn't make it any harder to reprogram the ECU, but it does make the consequences of tripping over the wrong bit much bigger. Since the ECU is completely new, it will probably take a few years for anyone to crack it.

The intake manifold is a thin-wall aluminum casting and is equipped with dual intake runners. A longer one for low-rpm use and a shorter one that opens up at high rpm. The switchover happens at around 5000 rpm--surprisingly high, considering the low redline.

7
In photo #4, the intake runner appears to get narrower as it approaches the cylinder head. This is just an optical illusion created by the way this display engine was opened. The runner cross section actually remains fairly constant.

The fuel injectors are now a conventional top-feed design but the fuel rail, shown in photo #5 is somewhat unique for its rectangular cross section. The long, flat, unsupported wall of the fuel rail is designed to be slightly flexible so it can act as a pulsation damper. Previous Nissan enignes had to use a separate pulsation damper mounted to a round fuel rail.

The fuel system is returnless, like most new cars, to lower the temperatures of the fuel in the tank and minimize evaporative emissions. Fuel pressure does not vary with manifold pressure as it did with the old engines; instead, it is now fixed at about 50 psi. This means no tuning simple turbo systems with rising rate fuel pressure regulators... sorry.

8
For ignition, the antiquated distributors of the SR20 and KA24 are finally gone, replaced with a compact coil on each spark plug, as shown in photo #6. No more pretty spark plug wires, no more ignition upgrades, no more easy horsepower by advancing the distributor. The 32-tooth crank position sensor now used to reference the ignition timing is built into the back of the crankshaft to help shorten the engine by a few millimeters. It is not adjustable.

A lot of work went into minimizing friction in the valvetrain in an effort to maximize fuel efficiency. Minimizing valvetrain mass allows the valve springs to be lighter, which reduces the amount of power wasted opening valves. To achieve minimum valvetrain mass, a direct-acting cam-on-bucket design is used. (See photo #7.) Unlike most direct acting valvetrains, there is no valve shim for adjusting valve lash. Instead, the entire bucket is available in different thicknesses when valve adjutments need to be made. Elininating the shim further reduces valvetrain mass. Valve adjustment isn't likely to be necessary during the normal service life of the engine because of the very light valve springs, but changing cams will likely require valve springs and a more complex adjustment procedure than the hydraulically adjusted SR20, or the screw-adjusted Honda engines.

The cam lobes themselves are also extremely narrow (much like Toyota's high-efficiency 1ZZ-FE engine) to minimize friction, and the base circle is narrower still.

9
The relatively small cam wiping pad offered by a direct acting valvetrain limits how aggressive the cam profile can be. By comparison, the larger pad available on a rocker arm like those in the SR20 or any Honda engine allow higher specific output.

It is the light valve springs, not the long stroke, that are responsible for the low, 6100 rpm redline. (By the time the engine reaches production, the redline may be raised to 6500 rpm, and could be as high as 7000 rpm if Inamijima gets his way.)

VTC variable cam timing is used on the intake cam. (The activator cam on the front of the engine can be seen in photo #8.) At the current state of development, the intake cam can be advanced or retarded over a 37 degree window, though the range of adjustment may change with the final engine calibration. Because valve overlap can be used to control internal exhaust gas recirculation, no EGR valve is used. That simplifies the engine and keeps the intake manifold free from flow-clogging soot.

Finally, the exhaust manifold. No surprises here, the catalytic converter is nestled up close to the engine to ensure that it reaches operating temperature as quickly as possible. Making the best of a bad situation, Nissan uses a tubular, stainless-steel 4-into-1 header to feed this close-coupled cat. The manifold looks about as good as it can, given the circumstances.

The Verdict
Most of the points we noticed on the engine seemed negative, from a pure performance standpoint, but we still come away encouraged.

Weaknesses like the thin ring lands and open block deck are only important at extremely high specific outputs. The point that is easily lost about the QR25 is that it is HUGE. Two and a half liters is a lot of displacement, and you don't have to lean on it very hard to get big power. Stock output is 180 hp at 5800 rpm, and word from inside Nissan is there is at least 10, and possibly as much as 20 hp bound up in a restrictive exhaust system.

Beyond simple intake and exhaust mods, a light-pressure turbocharger or supercharger seems to be the obvious route for horsepower. Camshafts will be expensive because of the requirement for valve springs and different buckets to maintain proper lash adjustment. Five psi of boost on top of 2.5 liters, however, should make a lot more power and shouldn't cost any more than they would on any other engine. What do you know; maybe the V8 boys had a point about displacement.

User avatar
Picasso
3ne2nr Toppa Toppa
Posts: 5013
Joined: April 28th, 2005, 8:24 am
Location: In a Big Body old car

Postby Picasso » February 11th, 2006, 8:24 am

Ah boi smokes yuh understand y I for this engine meng. This is the future fellas deal wih it longs stroke with insane N/A power :mrgreen:

User avatar
smokey1275
I LUV THIS PLACE
Posts: 906
Joined: September 9th, 2005, 8:30 pm
Location: hitting the revlimiter , shifting into 5th

Postby smokey1275 » February 11th, 2006, 9:34 pm

BOY PICASSO YOU DONE KNOW :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

villain
Riding on 16's
Posts: 1243
Joined: June 25th, 2005, 10:55 pm
Contact:

Postby villain » February 11th, 2006, 10:56 pm

smokey that engine is the one comin in the xtrail or the new model primeras?
(on a next note wagon and i hearin a hissin sound coming from the vehicle, it more pronounced going up hill...dunno what it is ...what advice u have?)..

User avatar
wagonrunner
TriniTuner 24-7
Posts: 13496
Joined: May 18th, 2004, 9:38 am
Location: Distancing myself from those who want to raid the barn but eh want to plant the corn.
Contact:

Postby wagonrunner » February 11th, 2006, 11:03 pm

smokey1275,
could you also leave the link to the article? so we may get even more info, as well as the pics which were omitted?

User avatar
smokey1275
I LUV THIS PLACE
Posts: 906
Joined: September 9th, 2005, 8:30 pm
Location: hitting the revlimiter , shifting into 5th

Postby smokey1275 » February 12th, 2006, 8:21 am

no worries , more ison the way , to answer villan , the xtrail comes with the last generation neo vvl form the sr20 series of motor , some primeras have the qr20, but the de not the vvl as the one in this article . some xtarils also come with the vq25de

User avatar
Picasso
3ne2nr Toppa Toppa
Posts: 5013
Joined: April 28th, 2005, 8:24 am
Location: In a Big Body old car

Postby Picasso » February 12th, 2006, 8:46 am

^^ Correction Xtrails come with the QR20DE brodda smokey special models come the the QR25DE and the lovely unicorn SR20VET

User avatar
cinco
TriniTuner 24-7
Posts: 18211
Joined: January 6th, 2006, 3:21 pm
Location: Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?
Contact:

Postby cinco » February 12th, 2006, 11:42 am

this comin in the american spec sentra se-r ent?

User avatar
redsupra101
2NRholic
Posts: 1574
Joined: February 27th, 2004, 2:26 am
Location: \
Contact:

Postby redsupra101 » February 12th, 2006, 8:06 pm

^ correcto

User avatar
Picasso
3ne2nr Toppa Toppa
Posts: 5013
Joined: April 28th, 2005, 8:24 am
Location: In a Big Body old car

Postby Picasso » February 13th, 2006, 10:12 am

this comin in the american spec sentra se-r ent?


They come with the QR25DE with CVTC. Check my thread on " God Bless THe QR" you will see what this 2.5l is capable of

User avatar
Cooper
3NE2NR Diesel Boyz
Posts: 1516
Joined: July 28th, 2003, 7:47 am

Postby Cooper » February 13th, 2006, 2:26 pm

wagonrunner wrote:smokey1275,
could you also leave the link to the article? so we may get even more info, as well as the pics which were omitted?



check it here...
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/ ... nersguide/

(pictures are kinda small though)

One thing I'm not comfortable about with these new engines are the drive-by-wire systems. No physical connection from the gas pedal to the throttle....my brother's wingroad has it with a QG-16...to me it feels weird.

User avatar
allblacks
3NE 2NR for life
Posts: 205
Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:35 pm
Location: South

Postby allblacks » February 13th, 2006, 3:14 pm

I can attest to this ,the QR 25 is a great engine....real low end torque and good overall power range...

User avatar
wagonrunner
TriniTuner 24-7
Posts: 13496
Joined: May 18th, 2004, 9:38 am
Location: Distancing myself from those who want to raid the barn but eh want to plant the corn.
Contact:

Postby wagonrunner » February 13th, 2006, 9:10 pm

copper,

thanks man.

k.c.151
Chronic TriniTuner
Posts: 507
Joined: May 5th, 2005, 9:47 pm
Location: Check Google Earth...
Contact:

Postby k.c.151 » February 15th, 2006, 11:11 pm

excellent read dey hoss.... :wink: :wink: :wink:

User avatar
Picasso
3ne2nr Toppa Toppa
Posts: 5013
Joined: April 28th, 2005, 8:24 am
Location: In a Big Body old car

Postby Picasso » February 16th, 2006, 2:28 pm

QR20DET :twisted: take a read this engine reving up to 9k

http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=145741&page=2

loromo
3NE 2NR for life
Posts: 133
Joined: March 14th, 2006, 12:35 pm

qr 20 engine

Postby loromo » April 27th, 2006, 12:40 pm

thanks for that useful info.What I need to know, what type of shocks and platinum or irridium spark plugs they use? Any help?

Temptrol
Ricer
Posts: 27
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 11:40 am

Postby Temptrol » February 4th, 2008, 2:30 pm

my qg ignition rattling real bad. can anyone help?

User avatar
hong kong phooey
punchin NOS
Posts: 2970
Joined: July 10th, 2006, 8:37 am
Location: ah lorse

Postby hong kong phooey » September 13th, 2009, 11:52 pm

what is the spark plug gapping for the qr20de engine

User avatar
Anil_Sooknanan
30 pounds of Boost
Posts: 2677
Joined: November 16th, 2006, 8:28 pm
Location: Freeport
Contact:

Postby Anil_Sooknanan » September 16th, 2009, 9:03 pm

anyone got or have a link for the any vehicle that came with this engine? wanna find the wire to connect the tacho without a tach adapter

User avatar
THE SYNDICATE
punchin NOS
Posts: 3885
Joined: February 13th, 2007, 9:13 am
Location: Progress Breeds Hate...

Postby THE SYNDICATE » September 17th, 2009, 6:52 am

good read pardna :|

User avatar
Anil_Sooknanan
30 pounds of Boost
Posts: 2677
Joined: November 16th, 2006, 8:28 pm
Location: Freeport
Contact:

Postby Anil_Sooknanan » September 17th, 2009, 9:49 pm

Anil_Sooknanan wrote:anyone got or have a link for the any vehicle that came with this engine? wanna find the wire to connect the tacho without a tach adapter

User avatar
megadoc1
punchin NOS
Posts: 3261
Joined: January 9th, 2006, 7:33 pm
Location: advancing the kingdom of heaven

Postby megadoc1 » September 17th, 2009, 10:20 pm

Anil_Sooknanan wrote:anyone got or have a link for the any vehicle that came with this engine? wanna find the wire to connect the tacho without a tach adapter
i think the tacho is communicated via CAN bus

User avatar
Anil_Sooknanan
30 pounds of Boost
Posts: 2677
Joined: November 16th, 2006, 8:28 pm
Location: Freeport
Contact:

Postby Anil_Sooknanan » September 17th, 2009, 11:02 pm

megadoc1,do you know how to wire it up on the QG's? Or QR?

User avatar
megadoc1
punchin NOS
Posts: 3261
Joined: January 9th, 2006, 7:33 pm
Location: advancing the kingdom of heaven

Postby megadoc1 » September 17th, 2009, 11:35 pm

not really because they need to be " translated"
but if you connect an original tacho from the y10 wingroad to the speed signal wire that communicates with the TCM (transmission control module), it works
this is what i did with the yd22 , it should be the same for the qgs

when i get time i will try to steal the signal directly of the cam or crank sensor
by triggering a transistor

but i am not setup for that yet , when i do i will let u know

User avatar
Seeker
I LUV THIS PLACE
Posts: 972
Joined: April 16th, 2009, 3:29 pm
Location: Chaguanas

Postby Seeker » September 18th, 2009, 10:13 am

I wonder if qr20 could fit in my ride lol :mrgreen:

User avatar
QG
punchin NOS
Posts: 3545
Joined: July 18th, 2006, 9:56 pm
Location: South

Postby QG » September 18th, 2009, 3:19 pm

B15?

Yes!!

User avatar
QG
punchin NOS
Posts: 3545
Joined: July 18th, 2006, 9:56 pm
Location: South

Postby QG » September 18th, 2009, 3:30 pm

Anil_Sooknanan,

http://forums.trinituner.com/forums/vie ... p?t=211403


It have the US Sentras that came with QRs...I know it's foreign, but it may be of some use lol.

User avatar
Anil_Sooknanan
30 pounds of Boost
Posts: 2677
Joined: November 16th, 2006, 8:28 pm
Location: Freeport
Contact:

Postby Anil_Sooknanan » September 18th, 2009, 7:09 pm

megadoc1, i could wire the tacho on the QG's there is a connector off the ecu just to drive the tacho.QG, thanks for the link but i already found that site.

User avatar
yakuza
I LUV THIS PLACE
Posts: 954
Joined: June 13th, 2007, 1:46 pm

Postby yakuza » September 18th, 2009, 8:33 pm

megadoc1, how d YD22 wukin? thinkin bout puttin one in ah AD, gas price killin meh.

User avatar
megadoc1
punchin NOS
Posts: 3261
Joined: January 9th, 2006, 7:33 pm
Location: advancing the kingdom of heaven

Postby megadoc1 » September 18th, 2009, 11:42 pm

Anil_Sooknanan, i know about the connector off the ecu on the qg but the qr i will have too look at it again
yakuza,yd22 wuking best,little bugs here and there but its great

Advertisement

Return to “NISSAN”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests