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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:59 pm 
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Are they as weak as tuners claim?

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In the case of making EJ motors last, it boils down to proper ECU tuning by a reputable tuner who clearly understands the logic of the ECU and its interaction with the engine, along with regular maintenance and using quality fluids in the car.

Read more: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_11 ... z2zNNx01WU


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shottah_crew
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:32 pm 
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EJ16 driver on the inside for this one....


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:45 pm 
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there are a lot of mechanics and tuners who say the engine is weak and has to be forged....yet there are a lot of STI's rolling around with upwards of 300hp on stock internals...


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Tile Expression Ltd.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:47 pm 
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300hp is ok for stock sti engine and internals...

But anything above that is risky...please keep in mind a lot of 300hp sti movin around...also A lot of them have rebuilt engines...


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:49 pm 
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im guessing, like the other thread, you commented without reading


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:06 pm 
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Boost Controller Basics

A boost controller is a device that bleeds or interrupts charge air away from the wastegate. As charge air is diverted away from the wastegate, boost can be substantially or significantly increased over the wastegates predetermined pressure.

Boost controllers come in two designs: Manual (mechanical) or Electronic

Comparisons

EBC (Electronic Boost Controller)

How it works:

An EBC is a closed loop system which works by sensing pressure via an internal or external pressure (MAP) sensor. The EBC unit then sees the pressure signal and then allows the 12V boost solenoid or stepper motor to open and close, through the desired duty cycle or gain, by pulse width modulations. The opening and closing of the solenoid or stepper motor happens quickly in milliseconds, allowing fast changing conditions to achieve target boost. EBCs can be set up for interrupt or bleed, depending on the type of wastegate used. All these steps and other features to get the system working takes time for the controller to react, and the result you get is very smooth and controlled stable boost. The average price EBCs are about $300-$600, some even higher depending on the manufacturer.


Pros
-Closed loop boost control
-Smooth, controlled boost
-Warning and overboost features
-Learning or fuzzy logic features (adjusts to weather changes)
-Throttle, RPM, or gear based control
-In-cabin control
-Offers top notch EWG manipulation

Cons
-Not as fast as an MBC
-Installation requires a very experienced mechanic
-Boost solenoid or stepper motor can possibly fail shut or open
-Harder to adjust (not for noobs)
-Requires more tuning time
-Will not cure an improperly sized wastegate/turbo combo operation
-Prone to spiking, overboosting, and blowing up motors if adjusted wrong
-Expensive






MBC ( Manual Boost Controller)

How it works:

MBCs, ball and spring type in particular, uses more of a direct closed-loop approach. All it is, is a boost body with two ports, housing a ball and spring, and a turning knob for adjustments. One port connects to a boost source (compressor housing, charge pipe, or intake manifold) and the other to the wastegate. The MBC knob is turned to the desired boost pressure and interrupts the boost signal by blocking it with the ball and spring. When the ball and spring is overcome at the desired boost level, it let's it go to the wastegate, allowing it to open and regulate desired boost. The result is direct, fast spooling, and controlled stable boost. The average price of well built MBCs go from $70-$160.


Pros
-Closed loop boost control
-Fast acting, controlled boost
-Installation requires a minimum experienced mechanic (I hope...)
-In-cabin control (Hallman Evolution addition only)
-Easier to adjust (one knob, small increments of "+" or "-")
-Requires less tuning time
-Offers great EWG manipulation
-Very affordable

Cons
-No warning and overboost features
-No learning or fuzzy logic features (does not adjust to weather changes)
-No throttle (Part Throttle Full Boost prone), RPM, or gear based control
-No cabin control (except Hallman Evolution addition)
-Will not cure an improperly sized wastegate/turbo combo operation
-Prone to spiking, overboosting, and blowing up motors if adjusted wrong



http://www.rs25.com/forums/f7/t134797-mbc-vs-ebc.html





Quote:
How Subaru's Factory Boost Control System Works

https://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en-us ... stem-Works


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Tile Expression Ltd.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:12 pm 
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Aaron 2NR wrote:
im guessing, like the other thread, you commented without reading


Firstly

Your comment was that mechanics say engine internals weak point are 300hp

I simply validated that point, because I have seen a lot of sti men destroy their engine by running over 300hp on a daily driven car.

Next..what other thread I comment on without reading???


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:18 pm 
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majority of the article, the feedback is the engines fail prematurely because

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A majority of engine failures are caused by uneducated tuners who don't understand how the vehicle and its engine work, along with not knowing the consequences of using low-quality parts to handle their horsepower expectations

Read more: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_11 ... z2zRaSQo7q


Quote:
Quirt Crawford Of Crawford Performance

300 whp: To obtain this horsepower level, the EJ motor only requires an upgraded intercooler, larger sized fuel injectors, and a retune of the ECU-no internal engine modifications are required. We highly recommend the use of an air/oil separator (AOS) on any turbocharged EJ motor to eliminate oil from coating both the intake tract and the inside of the intercooler, which causes a reduction in cooling efficiency that can cause detonation.

400 whp: There are no internal engine modifications needed at this power level. The car would need a larger turbo, intercooler, fuel injectors, fuel pump, AOS, and retune of the ECU.

500 whp: At his point, we suggest replacing the OE rods with a set of stronger, aftermarket forged rods, along with forged pistons, head studs, and the external components listed under 400 whp.

500+ whp: The same engine components are needed in the 500-whp package but you will probably need a larger turbo, and of course, proper tuning.



Read more: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_11 ... z2zRamdQlS


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kjaglal76v2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:56 pm 
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its a fact these engines weak when compared to its rival- the 4G63


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Ted_v2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:05 pm 
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300 hp on a sti engine is no kinda abuse .
300 hp on a Wrx engine is pretty much a sweet spot.
Subaru engines are well built and I would prefer it over a 4g63t.

The idea of the interchangeable ej engines and trans are awesome.

One day I'll have a fully modded legacy. Ej257 swap. Sti 6 speed. Brembos.


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:19 pm 
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kjaglal76v2 wrote:
its a fact these engines weak when compared to its rival- the 4G63


And this is why I thought the discussion is necessary. Most break because of mechanical failure or errors with the tune which lead to failure.

A lot of locals especially remove the ebcs which controls the boost and install a manual controller. The solenoid therefore cannot control and maintain proper boost levels. The ecu cannot correct any boost spikes which cause failure in many cases.

I have personally seen a few local cars over 300hp on stock internals, mine included.


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kjaglal76v2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:27 pm 
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great info, i would admit that i didnt kno abt all those highlighted practices locals engage in.

another thing i noticed when compared to the 4G63 is that is costs alot more to make power on the EJ motor!!


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:31 pm 
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You sure....my setup is simple bolt ons and methanol with a good safe tune and im at 333hp with 393ftlb torque


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Ted_v2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:33 pm 
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You can also easily order new complete blocks. Dunno if mitsubushi has that now. Seeing that the evolution series has ended


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kjaglal76v2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:37 pm 
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Aaron 2NR wrote:
You sure....my setup is simple bolt ons and methanol with a good safe tune and im at 333hp with 393ftlb torque


yes very sure abt that

nice figures there, but is yur car a daily & how much miles u rack up on yur setup?


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:54 pm 
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Since the new tune about 2000km....since meth installed about 10k....

Car is mainly for track use but I use it during the week as well...mid band tune amd not high rpm power....hit max boost mid band and then bleed off....thats why its was handle to produce so much torque....


Anyways back to topic

I saw a guy with an evo 8 upgraded fp red and making 308hp...according to him..bess tune lol


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kjaglal76v2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:09 pm 
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2000km is still new, oil change intervals are longer, again dais some.nice figures, but longevity is d name of the game & only time would tell


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:10 pm 
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Men break engine on the dyno lol

Again an engine could be mechanically sound and built like a rock but a poor tune would blow it up in no time


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russian777
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:11 pm 
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Aaron 2NR wrote:
kjaglal76v2 wrote:
its a fact these engines weak when compared to its rival- the 4G63


And this is why I thought the discussion is necessary. Most break because of mechanical failure or errors with the tune which lead to failure.

A lot of locals especially remove the ebcs which controls the boost and install a manual controller. The solenoid therefore cannot control and maintain proper boost levels. The ecu cannot correct any boost spikes which cause failure in many cases.

I have personally seen a few local cars over 300hp on stock internals, mine included.


These hp figures are quoted for NEW fresh blocks and primarly EJ25 , not like the local ones with have 80-120k on them (wear and tear on internals) . And yes it is true that the tune n mechanical errors would cause it to break but which engine wouldn't.

Ive the the turbo xs mbc hold down 36 psi with ewg , hallman mbc put down 28psi iwg. The ecu cannot compensate for boost spike but the tuner can put in place knock correction in the event.

. And theres more than a couple wrx's locally putting down 320+ whp / 350+tq bone stock , not to mention sti's , without using any fancy race gas or meth mixture , just pump and regular 50/50. All using mbc.


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russian777
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Aaron 2NR wrote:
Men break engine on the dyno lol

Again an engine could be mechanically sound and built like a rock but a poor tune would blow it up in no time


This , we can agree on. But you are forgetting the break in procedure which was instructed and a multitude of other factors such as oiling/cooling


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:20 pm 
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agreed and i aint disputing it either...main point of the article and topic is men are fast to say the EJ engines are weak and cannot take power but other tuners are saying the total opposite....their main point is an engine is as safe as it is tuned/ mechanically sound and as long as the both work in harmony, a stock engine can product significant amount of power....

you often hear a lot of locals knocking mechanics and tuners but a lot of people buy knock off parts thinking they are genuine and a tuner would tune based on the assumptions that such parts are genuine and can take the power....likewise a lot of tuners push the engine more than the mechanicals can support and then boom....

at the same time this is not to say do not forge an engine...if the plan is to make high hp etc then by all means....


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russian777
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Aaron 2NR wrote:
agreed and i aint disputing it either...main point of the article and topic is men are fast to say the EJ engines are weak and cannot take power but other tuners are saying the total opposite....their main point is an engine is as safe as it is tuned/ mechanically sound and as long as the both work in harmony, a stock engine can product significant amount of power....

you often hear a lot of locals knocking mechanics and tuners but a lot of people buy knock off parts thinking they are genuine and a tuner would tune based on the assumptions that such parts are genuine and can take the power....likewise a lot of tuners push the engine more than the mechanicals can support and then boom....

at the same time this is not to say do not forge an engine...if the plan is to make high hp etc then by all means....


x2 right through , very strong , high tq blocks. Too much "horror" stories going around giving people wrong impressions of the unique nature of the boxer. Most people tune it wrong , use wrong oils , run super etc etc the list goes on.

Daily driving vs track use is another factor , constant day in day out with hot weather + possibility of poor quality pump gas is significant wear and tear . Vs a day of hard run using race or high meth mixture.

Unfortunately , when/if it reaches that 100,000 km mark its always a good idea to begin considering a rebuild, I'm sure most factory engines would be heading this way as well.


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russian777
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:54 pm 
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kjaglal76v2 wrote:
great info, i would admit that i didnt kno abt all those highlighted practices locals engage in.

another thing i noticed when compared to the 4G63 is that is costs alot more to make power on the EJ motor!!


as he said , simple bolt on and correct tunes , well over 300 comfortable. Again too much people locally struggling to get up numbers , simply because of poor tuning.


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kjaglal76v2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:01 pm 
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russian777 wrote:
kjaglal76v2 wrote:
great info, i would admit that i didnt kno abt all those highlighted practices locals engage in.

another thing i noticed when compared to the 4G63 is that is costs alot more to make power on the EJ motor!!


as he said , simple bolt on and correct tunes , well over 300 comfortable. Again too much people locally struggling to get up numbers , simply because of poor tuning.


ahmmmm ok

so sti owners struggle wid a tune while evo owners flourish?


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:04 pm 
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Q: There's been much discussion that the newer Subarus are difficult to tune. Is it true that the '07-to-current Subarus require tuning with every aftermarket component installed or risk a potential loss in horsepower?

A: It's not the engine that is more difficult to tune, it is the ECU that has gotten more complex on the newer cars. As long as the tuner understands the functions and logic of the ECU, the newer cars are no more or less difficult to tune than the older cars. Ideally you'd always want a custom tune to be performed with the exact combo of parts that are going to be run for the foreseeable future.

Subaru Ej Series Automaster Amr
Unfortunately, Subaru chose an unfortunate ECU tuning strategy in more recent years (mostly '07 and newer) for Federal emissions compliance. Basically there is a long delay in the switchover from closed to open loop operation that forces the car to run very lean fueling even as load/boost rises. At that point, knocking/pinging/detonation is almost unavoidable and the resulting concussive pressure wave will crack the piston ring lands. In large part, this is what has caused some people to believe that the EJ motors are weak, but the underlying cause is actually in the ECU tuning.



Read more: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_11 ... z2zUDEKSza



there are a lot of people locally that give themselves the title of tuners but are experimenting with ppl cars....

also a lot of ppl knock ecutek because its a more conservative tune to protect the engine that high hp figures...


when i was on the dyno a while back, a guy was begging a tuner to up the boost and the tuner kept telling him no because the engine will blow after some time....a lot of tuners just give in to owners request instead of standing their ground when they know the engine cannot take anymore .....

i even witnessed a guy brought his daddy to get back his money because he wanted 400+ hp when he tuner told him he is not willing to take the engine above 350



lets not turn this post into a evo vs subaru one please


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Tile Expression Ltd.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:27 pm 
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Your comment about ecutek is very wrong

I will agree that ecutek is a great tune, but the concept of locking ecu is what most pole don't like, Especially if you decide to go with another tuner later on.

While a lot of subaru guys still like ecutek, the ones who knock ecutek is not because of the "safety" issue..it's mainly because of a couple reasons, the price, locking the ecu, and even if you do decide to go ecutek, the availability of your tuner and getting your ecu unlocked is a problem.


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russian777
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:40 pm 
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Tile Expression Ltd. wrote:
the availability of your tuner and getting your ecu unlocked is a problem.


yeap , you have alot of run around , and some people end up buying a new ecu becuase they cant get in contact , or when they do , they are not provided with a reflashed base map to go home. Hard to imagine , after paying close to 6-7K for a "tune"


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kjaglal76v2
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:53 pm 
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consumer getting lock outta he own ECU? :? :?


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Ted_v2
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Lol


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:13 pm 
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like everywhere in the world, tuners get blamed once an engine break lol.... i believe ecutek policy is the lock the ecu to prevent anyone from making modifications and ultimately blame them for it. also their tuners are registered and licensed so proprietary rights....


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