Thursday, October 30th, 2014



- It is currently Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:11 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours


Jump to:  


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Soundstream_626
 Post subject: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:42 pm 
Offline
Riding on 17's
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:01 pm
Posts: 1348
Location: san juan
with all these recent subwoofer related posts in mind i decided to post this article i got off audiopulse`s site... enjoy

SUBWOOFER MYTHS

# 1 Subwoofers have an RMS rating

Speakers actually have a very complex thermal compression relationship and certainly can not be quantified by just one or two numbers typically called RMS and Program or Peak. Because voice coils in traditional drivers are inherently resistors, any amount of voltage generates some amount of heat which then adversely changes the resistance and properties of the speaker. This is the principle of thermal compression: As the voice coil heats up, the resistance changes and the efficiency and performance of the driver decrease until the point of maximum thermal compression. There are some unique types of materials that have a close to zero temperature coefficient and of course there is also superconducting metals that operate at subzero temperatures with no indications of any sort of resistance. In theory, only these types of materials would have no thermal compression, but they are not employed or very practical yet. Copper and Aluminum are still the two most widely used materials for voice coils. Both copper and aluminum heat up considerably and the resistance changes as a function temperature, and there lies the problem, therefore a discrete RMS scalar value is entirely inappropriate.

Under heavy use, the TSP parameters can shift as much as 35% and in a generally un-favored direction. (higher Qts, lower sensitivity). The common ultra high RMS ratings we see of large and expensive subwoofers are at best marketing ploys to make the driver seem far more worthy than it is, or in fact they are really intended to give the customer an idea of what type of amplifier to buy. The fact is, even the highest “RMS” rated subwoofers in the world in excess of 5 digit figures will begin to compress with far less power than you would ever image, try only a few hundred watts! (no joke!). Now this doesn’t mean you still don’t need lots of power to reach the maximum potential of the driver. As a rule of thumb, the amplifier should be much more capable than what the driver needs on average. For example, quick short bursts will produce huge SPL’s and the voice coil will not have time to heat up as much, but longer term high power use will result in considerable performance regression if not failure from glues giving way due to heat or differences in the thermal expansion of materials around the glues. Under heavy use thermal compression limits begin to play a large part in SPL but most people are oblivious to this concept. It is true that woofers can be used well into their thermal compression state, and typically that is what occurs. As the power increases linearity, the SPL does not increase linearly. This is some form of compression, usually thermally related unless the woofer is beyond or close to xmax. In an ideal non-compression circumstance of either power, BL or otherwise, you can expect a 3dB increase every time the power is doubled. Rarely does this ever occur, in extremely compressed and dangerous states it can be less than 1dB!

As a woofers reaches its very limits, unless failure occurs there will become a point where the resistance of the voice coil is rising faster than the power going into the subwoofer. When the resistance doubles as the power doubles then absolute thermal compression has set in. In practice you can’t actually increase the power from the amplifier because most amplifiers start to produce less power as the resistance increases because almost every car, home and pro audio amplifier is a constant voltage source rather than a constant current source. So in a way this phenomenon is a self limited occurrence that accidentally works to protect the driver. However, running the driver at or near the maximum thermal compression limit will likely result in rapid failure. Ultimately, thermal compression is a very large but unavoidable shortcoming of mass controlled transducers. Likely, compliance controlled transducers, or rather subsonic transducers are not limited by their thermal properties as much, but rather their compliance or linear limits (xmax). It is believed by a few experts in the field that thermal compression plays a much greater role in linearity and distortion than we know of, but it’s rarely discussed.

# 2 More xmax means more SPL

Subwoofer drivers really can be broken down in two categories: “Mass” controlled drivers and “compliance” controlled drivers. Mass controlled drivers tend to have low xmax and high sensitivity. These tend to be punchy and very loud and mostly used in live concerts for sound reinforcement or even car SPL competitions. Compliance controlled subwoofers which tend to be the majority of car audio subwoofers have high xmax, more weight, lower sensitivity, but more SPL in the lower frequency spectrum. Then there are of course hybrid drivers which are basically mixes of the two. Any driver in these categories can sound good or bad, but more important is being able to use the woofer where it performs the best. Using a low xmax woofer for subsonic content is probably not wise, likewise using a high xmax low sensitivity driver for sound reinforcement is not going to be very effective. In truth, there is no best driver and most drivers can overlap these zones with good results. We are not really used to the idea of a two way subwoofer, but as we demand more and more SPL and deeper bass, we may some day find that two different types of subwoofers used together are required to get the full reference SPL effect we all hunger for!

So yes, more specified xmax does mean more SPL but only for lower frequencies. Generally speaking, during lower frequencies, the driver tends to run out of usable throw (beyond xmax) before high thermal compression states occur and mechanical failure is a greater risk. 0-40Hz is primarily mechanical, 40-60 is in between) 60 and up is going to be more thermally limited. 0-20Hz is the subsonic content and in fact there are more efficient methods of producing bass in this spectrum rather than a regular piston based transducer. Surprisingly, even the largest drivers with high xmax and big voice coils can be bottomed out or run past a safe mechanical state with only a few hundred watts if the frequencies are low enough. Without a high pass (subsonic) filter, or in a low tuned system, bottoming out or breaking a driver could be a very real possibility without careful modeling and testing. The difference in displacement from 40Hz to 20Hz or rather half the frequency, or one octave, is quadruple! In the simple large sealed box example, that means if your woofer displacement is 1” peak to peak at 40Hz, you’ll bottom out just about anything in existence by the time you dip below 20Hz without protection.

Often times when people want more SPL, they really need higher sensitivity in the form of higher BL product or less moving mass, rather than more xmax because 50-60Hz is really what they are after. This is a very sensual frequency range for humans and much of the bass in music content exists in that frequency domain.

# 3 Subwoofers are fast / slow

More appropriately labeled Damping or Ringing, these concepts are really reciprocals of one another have nothing to do with speed, tightness, “boomieness” or any other misused and inappropriate term for subwoofers. Subwoofers, or rather bass drivers, all move at the same frequency when instructed to via an input single. The difference is really about the Q alignment of the system. There are many famous Q alignments which produce various frequency responses, but beyond the complex mathematics is a fundamental principal of force and acceleration and the driver will respond to a sinusoidal wave at various accelerations depending on the moving mass and force that the voice coil and motor generate on the cone. Therefore any driver can be faster or slower depending simply on the voltage! It makes little sense to call any driver faster or slower.

Damping or Ringing is really what we’re after and the amount of either is really a function of system volume along with the electro-mechanical damping factor of the driver. For example, in a sealed box system, as the volume of the cabinet becomes small, the internal pressures increase when the driver pushes in and out. This pressure is a force which, not nearly as strong as the electromotive damping force, works in the opposite direction. Contrary to intuition, higher internal pressure (which we tend to associate with tightness or stiffness) decreases damping and promotes ringing at one particular frequency (Fc in the case of a sealed box). The pressure from the air inside the box works against the driver’s natural damping factor of 1/(Qts). When the pressure becomes large relative to the motor’s damping factor, the driver will ring more and cause a peak in SPL at the given resonate frequency (Fc). This tends to be somewhere around 40-60Hz in a given sealed box, but could be outside that range under abnormal circumstances. This peak is ill desired and is accountable to the proclaimed “boomy” sounding subwoofers which tend to lack clarity, good transit response and dynamics. However some people prefer some ringing because it provides a natural boost in a very audible frequency band. Likewise, in a larger box, the Q will decrease and the ringing and SPL around that frequency will too, but the low end will open up and you’ll have more deep bass. This tends to sound better and more controlled.

On the flip side, over dampened drivers tend to have poor low frequency response and require equalization to boost the low frequencies. They tend to work better in vented boxes where their larger motor force factor (BL^2/Re) is put to good use with a resonator which then makes the low end much more efficient with its increased displacement. Likewise, drivers with high Qts will work better in sealed boxes and should be exempt from being used in a ported system without careful consideration. When high Q drivers are used in a vented system they will ring at the tuning frequency of the box (Fb in this case) and the “boomy” problem is considerably worse.

# 4 Ported boxes don’t sound as good as sealed

In most cases this is strictly a result of linear response vs non-linear response and it could go both ways. 4th order systems or “vented” boxes tend to be far more particular to volume, port size and length and the driver TPS’s rather than sealed systems. Misalignments are therefore amplified and greatly affect the frequency response. Often times in car audio, ported boxes are not tuned low enough, or the volume is too large and there is a large peak in the frequency response from literately too much sensitivity or SPL at a very narrow frequency band. The other issue is if the driver does not have enough BL or has too high of a Qts and becomes under damped at resonance. This again leads to drastic peaks at the resonating frequency; however in this case, the driver will be peaky there regardless of content and it will sound ultimately less dynamic and very bottom heavy. However, a well designed vented box may have considerably lower distortion and higher dynamics than a sealed box because of the added SPL gained from the port without increasing the active driver displacement requirements. Sealed systems evoke the most non-linear driver behavior to reach any given SPL, so in fact, they could be the worst sounding system if your SPL demands are considerable. It is important to model a ported design or ask the manufacture for a recommendation. It is also critical to include a high pass filter on the active driver in a ported box for protection.

# 5 Subwoofers care what they play

Your subwoofer driver does not have a conscience, and it does not perform better with one type of music over another. It’s just a driver. Good subwoofer systems will play all types of music or movie material very well. A bad subwoofer system may have a null or peak in the frequency response that may benefit some material over others but essentially this non-linear behavior is not ideal. It is true that movies have lower frequency content and perhaps more dynamic bass than music, especially with the recent compressed CD’s of the last 10 or so years, but a good system can be used for movies and music alike if it is indeed a “good” system.

It is also true that it tends to be more important to emphasize subsonic frequencies in the home theater environment versus the music environment where there is simply less emphasis on subsonic inaudible material. As a tradeoff, you can align a system to be more efficient above 30Hz or so. This trade off reduces the bandwidth but increases the SPL. Careful consideration should be taken to insure linear response is still maintained. It is very easy to have peaky bass with low Q drivers in high tuned ported systems. This is approaching the concept of basic SPL vehicles which use low Q, highly sensitive drivers tuned very high for very narrow but ferociously peaky response. Such systems are not very ideal for listing to music material of any kind. If you want your system louder, then it is better to add a second driver, more volume and more amplification, rather than tuning higher. It is important to understand that getting more SPL without compromise is never very cheap!

# 6 Sealed box can take more power than ported

There is some truth to this, and some myth, but as far as the thermal limits of the driver are concerned, it can’t take more power one way or another. However, in a sealed box the driver will require more power to reach the same SPL as the frequency range lowers. A ported system is simply more efficient so it wont need as much power to reach the same SPL. Based on the mechanical limits of a driver, different frequencies can take different power loads. At higher frequencies, driver can be pushed hard and won’t necessarily be in a mechanical-risk state. However the driver tends to be in a higher thermal compression state and could be thermally at risk. This is true for both ported and sealed boxes. However, for lower frequencies, the sealed box also acts as a filter in a way because the internal air pressure prevents the driver from over excursion. In a sealed box, the compliance of the suspension system almost always forgoes that of the air spring system unless the box is very large. In a vented box, there is no pressure to protect the driver and furthermore, when the system unloads below resonance, the active driver’s excursion increases exponentially and a high pass (subsonic) filter is critical to prevent mechanical failure.

# 7 Sensitivity does not matter for subwoofers

Sensitivity is indeed very important for subwoofers. Not all frequencies are limited by xmax. In fact, most of the bass frequencies for music are really limited by sensitivity or more accurately BL product and moving mass, but not by maximum driver displacement. Higher sensitivity means more SPL and ultimately better performance especially for upper bass punch or kick such as a “kick drum” which resonates at 63Hz. In fact, all good SPL competition drivers need to have high sensitivity not xmax!

There are several standards for sensitivity. SPL at 2.83 volts or SPL at one watt. The SPL at one watt is the more accurate number as 2.83 volts could correlate to more than 1 watt which would not be relatively appropriate to go by. Also sensitivity is a function of, in part, the driver’s cone area which is never quite explicit and could be exaggerated slightly. Ultimately as engineers, we do strive for high sensitivity because not all bass resides in subsonic domain and many good sounding subwoofers are in fact good because they have great sensitivity and not necessarily high xmax.

# 8 Smaller drivers sound better than bigger drivers

One of the biggest myths about woofers is that 8’s and 10’s are “tighter” and “cleaner” than 15’s or 18’s. Nothing is further from the truth. What tends to happen is that the smaller drivers have lower Q’s because manufactures tend to put large cones on smaller motors to increase SPL and sensitivity but not BL product. Well unless the motor can compensate for the extra mass it has to push, then the Qts will not be the same as the smaller drivers and ultimately the driver may not be suited for the same kinds of alignments and could ring too much and compromise the perceived sound quality. Having said that, high Qts drivers are not any less “tight” or “musical” than well dampened drivers, it’s just they require larger boxes and less internal pressure to prevent ringing. Ultimately there becomes a point where a driver really should be used in an infinite baffle where its actual Qts and Fs becomes the system Qtc and Fc. As enclosure volume decreases, Qtc increases and it will take a driver with a low Qts to make for an average Q system. So in conclusion, the only reason to use a smaller bass driver is for space, weight and potentially power considerations, but likewise, it is inappropriate to try and fit a larger driver into a space smaller than it is ideal for.

# 9 I can compare two drivers using the same box

What you will find is primarily how different TSP’s work in different boxes. And the differences usually observed are of course differences in TPS’s with a given system, rather than performance. The best way to compare two drivers is to make two different systems based on the driver itself and ensure that the frequency responses are linear to the range you desire, and then compare those two systems in terms of dynamic headroom, SPL and distortion. Simply saying one system is “louder” or “deeper” in the same box is inappropriate. In one case it could be a something as simple as an under dampened driver ringing a lot more than an over dampened one at resonance causing a larger peak in low frequencies throughout. It does not mean it’s louder or deeper or better outright, it is simply non-linear, and all bets are off. Proper enclosure deigns and/or EQ should be used for any system.

#10 cone material affects the sound

For low frequencies, the cone on a driver makes no difference in the sound whatsoever. The only possible affect it could have is in the case of a metal cone or very stiff composite cone that resonates at a high frequencies and buzzes. However this frequency would be up around 1000 to 2000Hz: Well beyond a bass driver’s usable limits.

Various cone materials are used for various purposes. Some cones, such as composite core with fiberglass or carbon fiber skins are extremely light and very stiff, especially when pressed with epoxy. Other cones such as aluminum provide excellent thermal cooling to decrease voice coil operating temperatures when the heat is conducted though the (if possible) conductive former. The cones job is to push air, not break, and ideally not be too heavy (easier said that done). But they don’t change the tone, pitch or timbre of a subwoofer system whatsoever. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably hearing differences in the motor distortion, likely related to BL, compliance or other non-linear distortions not relating to the cone.

#11 bigger magnet means more magnetic force

The motor is essentially the steel and magnets on the bottom of the driver. Its job to create a magnetic circuit that has an air gap where flux lines cross in one direction so that a coil can rest in this field and carry current which then produces a force up and down and moves the piston to create SPL. The force that this motor creates is dependent on the amount of power or rather current inside the conductor F = B*L*I. So we need a more intuitive understanding of how a motor affects a driver’s performance without considering how much current it receives. This is the simple concept of “force factor”. Larger motors will ideally have higher force factors, but this number not only affected by the motor, its affected by the voice coil size, length, distance to the motor (gap) and conductive martial used too. The end result is in fact the BL squared divided by Re (resistance of the vc). This is literally Newtons squared per watt and is called the force factor. The higher the number, the more efficient the motor voice coil combination is and the more performance you get out of the motor.

BL, one of the many TS parameters you are probably somewhat familiar with. It is literally the magnetic field “B” crossed with the conductor length “L.” L does not in fact depend on the number of turns on the voice coil, but rather the actual cross section area of the coil itself which is inside the gap. While force factor is entirely important for any high performance driver, one should also consider the moving mass. A 600 horse power engine in a semi truck is pretty typical, but in a sports car it’s certainly something to gloat about. Together, the force factor, moving mass and the piston area account for sensitivity. This number is very important even for subwoofers, especially for frequencies above ~60Hz.

#12 Double bass kick, only good sounding drivers can do it

We have all heard that only good “SQ” drivers can do double bass kick because they have good transient response or something to that extent. This is really nothing more than linear frequency response and lack of ring. If high Q subwoofers are in small boxes or if low Q subwoofers are in large ported boxes, the frequency response of the system will likely be greatly non-linear. This non-linear response compromises relative SPL and can drown out certain sounds and frequencies. Room acoustics can also do the same thing. The same subwoofer may sound completely different in another room simply because there could be poor coupling and non-linear frequency response as a result of standing waves and peaks in the response curve. A peak at 80Hz may make for a rather anemic 60Hz response, and while 60Hz appears to be the problem, it’s actually from the nonlinear response else where! The bottom line is “double bass kicks” are usually not a function of the driver or driver’s performance but rather the system design, linear frequency and room equalization.

Often times people associate double bass as something to do with speed and only good drivers are fast. Believe it or not, even the largest and heaviest drivers, have no problem producing low frequencies, even 300Hz is a relatively slow long wavelength with a slow impulse time. Subwoofers are in fact MUCH faster than you would expect. Bottom line is, the lack of double bass, within the working limits of a driver, is not a problem with the driver so much as it is probably a problem with the system design, room and/or EQ settings.

#13 Transient response is better with sealed boxes

The fact is “transient response” is truly misleading and probably entirely unimportant at least for low frequency response. What people hear is really a function of the linear frequency response and distortion. It is often accepted that transient is a function of timing, but our ability to hear differences of a few milliseconds of low frequencies is quite negligible which is why the low frequency group delay of a 4th order system is quite unimportant next to the sensitivity advantages provided. Transient does not exclusively depend on sealed or ported designs, high Q, low Q, in fact, even drivers with high inductance don’t outright suffer from “transient response” insofar as we can physically distinguish certain sporadic behaviors because within their working range, they may be very efficient and dynamic. The fact is, what makes bass indeed bass, are long wavelengths that take considerable time to pass our ears. The perception of transient is really a function of perceived sound quality and there is really not appropriate example for good “transient response”. We as humans hear two things, distortion and SPL, and in the end that’s really want matters. What does improve “transient” response or perceived quality is usually more headroom, more drivers (usually larger boxes depending on the Qts of the driver), better efficiency and ultra low distortion within the prescribed limits of the system or drivers within the system. Sealed systems in fact don’t offer better transient response no more than ported even with their lower group delay tendencies, at least to human ears!

#14 It’s a bigger driver, then I need a bigger amp

Often times larger drivers require less amplification, that’s sort of the idea. The concept of bigger woofers need more power is not always true and plays right into the ever progressing misconception of car audio. What you should consider is the efficiency of the subwoofer. Efficiency will literally tell you how much acoustic output you will get given an amount of power (assuming linear limits of course). If the driver is bigger, has a larger motor and has a higher sensitivity, there is no mystery about it, you are going to get more SPL with the same amplifier provided the impedance is similar and the amplifier can produce high voltage at impedance peaks when the driver naturally draws very little current for a narrow range. If a driver is more efficient and has a larger voice coil, well you just got your cake and you can now eat it. Not only will it be louder, but it will have less thermal compression and ultimately more sound provided all else is equal (but such is not usually not the case). It’s often difficult to make voice coils larger and increase sensitivity too. This usually requires very large motors and expense. Sensitivity is most easily achieved by weight reduction usually from the cone surround and voice coil. Sensitivity is often a trade off of xmax and thermal compression limits.

However there are many larger drivers that don’t have ultra high sensitivity. A good pro audio subwoofer may have 6 to 10dB higher sensitivity over an average high excursion car audio subwoofer. That advantage makes them very capable with quite a bit less power at least for their frequency range which is usually above 40Hz. Likewise, SPL drivers ironically enough don’t need much power either! Let me repeat. True SPL drivers ironically enough don’t need much power! That’s because they are used in the higher frequency domain not limited by displacement and generally have great sensitivity numbers. They need this in order to get the excursion and ultimately SPL they need to win contests. High sensitivity and lots of power means lots of SPL provided the driver is still reasonably linear and does not physically break of course. Note: Strictly for SPL contest, drivers are normally burped at Fc (system resonance) which is the point of maximum current draw and minimum active driver displacement which is why excessive power must be used. Do not confuse that requirement with the much lower power requirements for sound reproduction outside that single SPL frequency. It’s important you know the TSP’s of the driver you buy, otherwise it could be the wrong driver for you! Who buys a car without knowing the horsepower? Just because a driver big and the manufacture claims pie in the sky RMS numbers doesn’t mean a thing!

#15 Neodymium will lose its strength with heat

Of course it will, and so will ceramic motors too, but the fact is, under even extreme operating conditions, it’s not likely the motor will ever reach these temperatures. There is just too much steel to absorb the heat from the voice coil in almost any practical case. In practice, gradual demagnetization due to use simply does not occur. We have been making high power neodymium based drivers for many years now and we have never once measured a discernible number from heat.

While Neodymium is nearly 10 times as strong as a similar sized ceramic magnets, it can cost up to 50 times too which is almost exclusively why it is not used often. Also, traditional overhung motors, which account for more than 95% of all car audio designs, can get everything they need out of a ceramic magnet assembly and stronger neodymium would be perhaps unnecessary. If we could use neo more, we would, but because it’s a patented martial, it’s just not economically practical for most designs. Furthermore, in order the magnetize neodymium, A magnetizer with over twice as much power and energy needs to be used. Many manufactures lack the capabilities of even magnetizing neodymium, so it becomes impractical to not only use it, but to manufacture.

#16 Its all about maximum displacement

A DIY’er favorite statistic, displacement / dollars. If you’re considering any bass above 40Hz then throw it out the door right now. Often times people assume that simply because one or more drivers have more maximum displacement over another type of woofer, than they will ultimately be the better performer(s). In many cases this is true, but it’s not true in general. Displacement alone does not guarantee SPL. In fact, SPL depends on not only displacement, but frequency range, sensitivity, box size, and BL product too. This is simply a matter of converting energy into acoustic sound pressure level and different devices work more efficiently than others for different frequency ranges. For subwoofers, it is generally accepted that BL product is the dominate factor that accounts for much of the performance or rather system efficiency, especially in a bass reflex or more complex system where there is a lot of air mass to displace. But keep in mind, depending on the type of system, size, frequency range, power and thermal limits, there may be even more critical and dependent variables that determine the overall performance of a system. None the less, high displacement is usually a good indicator that the subwoofer can excel in deep bass SPL. Of course there are other factors to consider depending on the system of system.


Last edited by Soundstream_626 on Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
Top
 Profile  
 
jeff
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:29 pm 
Offline
Riding on 18's
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Posts: 1739
good read there man :o


Top
 Profile  
 
SR
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:50 pm 
Offline
Chief Cook & Instigator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:11 pm
Posts: 12382
stickiefied :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
- Rovin's car audio -
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:52 pm 
Offline
3NE 2NR Power Seller
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:30 pm
Posts: 8054
Location: Chaguanas... authorised DD dealer
u wouldnt believe me when i was going to post this same thing last week & probably felt sleepy & forget to post it ......i love how simple they put it without using too much big terminology ........ :fadein:


Top
 Profile  
 
jeff
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:21 pm 
Offline
Riding on 18's
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Posts: 1739
yea i like how they state pros and cons of the thieles values and how they differentiate between the benefits in different freq ranges...wrt sensitivity bl q etc ie high spl bass and low sq bass..


Top
 Profile  
 
Advil
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:27 am 
Offline
Riding on 16's
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:20 pm
Posts: 1273
Location: searching for an avatar that will not offend the idiots
Quote:
# 2 More xmax means more SPL
will be read tomorrow


Top
 Profile  
 
Loprofile PC
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:33 pm 
Offline
3NE 2NR Power Seller
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:39 pm
Posts: 0
Location: On another Delivery!
nice and simple, jus saved the page for future reference.... thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
katastrophic
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:04 pm 
Offline
Trinituner Peong
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:40 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Missing de Swift...
that was longer than ah harry potter book :faint:


Soundstream_626, good read there, well explained


Top
 Profile  
 
southside connections
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:52 pm 
Offline
punchin NOS

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:18 am
Posts: 2933
really well explained myths dere now peeps have ah better understanding about subs


Top
 Profile  
 
SQBOY
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:39 am 
Offline
Ricer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:25 pm
Posts: 19
Location: at the G Spot
NICE VERY NICE !!!


Top
 Profile  
 
~Vēġó~
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:19 am 
Offline
3NE 2NR Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:18 am
Posts: 45504
Location: Being the Change that I want to See
VEry Informative!!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
RadeonHD
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:59 am 
Offline
Chronic TriniTuner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:53 pm
Posts: 577
Very nice


Top
 Profile  
 
viking1705
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:08 pm 
Offline
3NE2NR is my LIFE
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:12 pm
Posts: 727
well that clears up alot of questions i used to have..nice post man


Top
 Profile  
 
reynold1
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:43 pm 
Offline
Street 2NR

Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:35 pm
Posts: 59
very nice, thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
SUBnGIN
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:18 pm 
Offline
Riding on 13's
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:28 pm
Posts: 8
So many good ideas, but can some one tell me what sizes of sealed box i should use to make a sub woofer to be perfect? :) ( I think it will be made from wood square form ) :?:


Top
 Profile  
 
gt4tified
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:02 am 
Offline
punchin NOS
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 3:17 pm
Posts: 4359
Location: in de garaqe!
Good read, thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
Mosaic
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:30 am 
Offline
3NE 2NR for life

Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:06 pm
Posts: 229
This is QUITE wrong:

>> As a woofers reaches its very limits, unless failure occurs there will become a point where the resistance of the voice coil is rising faster than the power going into the subwoofer. When the resistance doubles as the power doubles then absolute thermal compression has set in. In practice you can’t actually increase the power from the amplifier because most amplifiers start to produce less power as the resistance increases because almost every car, home and pro audio amplifier is a constant voltage source rather than a constant current source. So in a way this phenomenon is a self limited occurrence that accidentally works to protect the driver.<<

Resistance DROPS due to heating. Therefore this article is written by some kinda dotish people. The REVERSE is true- AMPLIFIER LOADING INCREASES as the woofer coils get hot and drop in ohms.

Hope u guys realise that this article is not based in accuracy.
:evil:


Top
 Profile  
 
ChristianRD
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:12 pm 
Offline
3NE2NR is my LIFE
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:32 pm
Posts: 779
^^^ BS


Top
 Profile  
 
infinite_RPM
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:34 pm 
Offline
Trinituner Peong

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:31 pm
Posts: 439
Mosaic wrote:
This is QUITE wrong:

>> As a woofers reaches its very limits, unless failure occurs there will become a point where the resistance of the voice coil is rising faster than the power going into the subwoofer. When the resistance doubles as the power doubles then absolute thermal compression has set in. In practice you can’t actually increase the power from the amplifier because most amplifiers start to produce less power as the resistance increases because almost every car, home and pro audio amplifier is a constant voltage source rather than a constant current source. So in a way this phenomenon is a self limited occurrence that accidentally works to protect the driver.<<

Resistance DROPS due to heating. Therefore this article is written by some kinda dotish people. The REVERSE is true- AMPLIFIER LOADING INCREASES as the woofer coils get hot and drop in ohms.

Hope u guys realise that this article is not based in accuracy.
:evil:


http://stereophile.com/reference/1106hot/


Top
 Profile  
 
Brian Steele
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:39 pm 
Offline
Chronic TriniTuner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:37 pm
Posts: 596
Mosaic wrote:
Resistance DROPS due to heating.


Not on this planet :)


Top
 Profile  
 
Brian Steele
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:16 pm 
Offline
Chronic TriniTuner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:37 pm
Posts: 596
[quote="Soundstream_626"]# 3 Subwoofers are fast / slow
More appropriately labeled Damping or Ringing, these concepts are really reciprocals of one another have nothing to do with speed, tightness, “boomienessâ€


Top
 Profile  
 
theblitz
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:46 am 
Offline
Chronic TriniTuner
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:57 pm
Posts: 596
Location: South Trinidad
what happened to the article? not seeing all of it


Top
 Profile  
 
ek4ever
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:52 am 
Offline
Riding on 18's
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:51 am
Posts: 1787
Location: Spot of Pain
This is probably why Image Dynamics gave a range for their subs rather than absolute values.....good read.


Top
 Profile  
 
sMASH
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:47 pm 
Offline
punchin NOS
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:30 am
Posts: 4947
Brian Steele wrote:
Mosaic wrote:
Resistance DROPS due to heating.


Not on this planet :)

ummm.... not in this dimension


Top
 Profile  
 
infinite_RPM
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:44 pm 
Offline
Trinituner Peong

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:31 pm
Posts: 439
theblitz wrote:
what happened to the article? not seeing all of it


x2


Top
 Profile  
 
Soundstream_626
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:18 pm 
Offline
Riding on 17's
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:01 pm
Posts: 1348
Location: san juan
guys the full article is back up. i got it off google`s cache of audiopulse`s old site

ill throw in this too

Subwoofers Explained

It’s important to choose the right driver for the right application so that the your expectations are met with the acoustic performance of the working system. Audiopulse offers subwoofer solutions for every single customer for just about every single type of application. Our commitment as a company is to design, build and provide the ideal reference acoustic driver for any application at any price. As a consumer, it is important that you convey your goals with your local installer or audio technician and explain what you want so it gets done right the first time. In almost every case, you’ll want a system that is loud, sounds great and does not fail! If you need technical advice beyond most expertise levels, Audiopulse technicians, coached and trained by our own acoustic engineers, will be glad to assist you in your design.

The main objective when designing a subwoofer system is to have a linear response curve. This response curve is a direct result of the drivers parameters, box volume, system type (sealed, ported etc) and EQ involved, and ultimately it is a complex matching game with these variables. In terms of enclosures, the Q or (Qb) is a factor that describes the mechanical and electrical circuits of the driver and enclosure combination which controls the net resonance(s) of the spring-mass components of the system and ultimately directly affects the net frequency response. It is important to consider the effects that the driver and box have on each other when you want to control the frequency response of the system. There are two basic types of alignments, assisted and unassisted. Unassisted alignments means no EQ (equalization) is involved and assisted means EQ filters are involved which also have their own associated Q factor that implement changes to the frequency response. In most cases, you’ll want to archive a linear response if at all possible but it is typically impossible to have a perfectly linear response without EQ; however, we can come close, which is why its critical to fit the right driver in the right box because low frequency EQ is typically not practiced with much accuracy in caraudio.

Matching an amp with a driver is also an important step of the process, however it’s important to know that, except for resistive matching, amplifiers are impartial to drivers! You can use any amp for any driver provided it will be enough power to reach the drivers maximum performance and the amplifier does not distort (clip) or overheat. Ideally you should match the amplifier performance to the driver’s displacement and thermal capabilities. Having an amplifier that is too powerful for the driver is really not an issue, however without consideration, it can be easy to overdrive the woofer and cause damage. Drivers do usually warn you in the way of distortion when too much is too much! Matching the amplifier to the driver is really a matter of minimizing your economic expense without sacrificing any performance. Likewise, it’s unwise to use an amplifier that is not able to driver the subwoofer to its maximum ability within the frequency range of the system. In this case, clipping could occur which will account for unwanted distortion. In more cases than not, clipping distortion is confused with driver distortion. Under powering a subwoofer will never cause damage to the driver even if the amplifier is clipping. Unless the single has a very high voltage and the subwoofer is beyond its limits, then failure could occur regardless of clipping. Remember, clipping does not hurt drivers, but too much power can, clipped or unclipped for that matter.

No matter what you listen to or how you listen to it, what you really want true linear response and ideally unlimited dynamic sound pressure levels with no distortion. That is the end game for you, us, and everyone in-between! It’s called “reference.” If it’s just loud, then it just loud, and if it’s not very loud, good sounding or not, it’s probably unimpressive. Reference is what we’re after and reference is what Audiopulse delivers. We do 100% of the engineering in-house and build our own drivers on site in the USA and back each with a full lifetime warranty.


Sealed Systems

Sealed systems have several advantages, they are typically the smallest type of system you can build, easiest, have the least group delay (change of phase with respect to frequency), naturally protect the driver at lower frequencies, have a tame 2nd order roll-off characteristic, and they are the least temperamental when it comes it linear response. While all this sounds lovely, they also have one big shortcoming: They are the least efficient system, especially for low frequencies, so they can quite easily have the most non-linear distortion because the driver(s) has to rely exclusively on their own linear displacement to produce SPL for the entire spectrum. Compared to un-EQ’ed sealed systems, 4th order (vented) systems can have upwards of 6 to 9dB more SPL at tuning (usually below 40Hz) which translates in a 2 to 3 fold advantage. At higher frequencies, sealed sysetms and ported systems with the same driver and power produce similar SPL levels.

Sealed systems are often considered ideal if your purpose is “SQ” (Sound quality). This is probably the wrong reason to do a sealed system. Sealed systems should be used if space is a consideration or if the driver you’re using has a high Qts (above 0.5) then it probably should only be used in a sealed box to prevent unwanted ringing at Fb. Low Qts drivers don’t often benefit from being used in a sealed box and can quite literally be anemic in the low end response because of the high electromotive damping factor. EQ boosts are necessary to bring up the low end response if the driver’s Qts is too low. Higher Qts drivers tend to balance nicely in a sealed box and can have great low end response without Eq in the right volume. If the drivers Qts is high, larger volumes are needed otherwise ringing could occur, while low Qts drivers generally need a only small sealed box, but will still require EQ. If your goal is a very small sealed box, you’ll likely still need to use a low Qts driver and then EQ it.


4th Order Ported Systems

Ported, or rather 4th order vented systems, are commonly stereotyped to have poorer sound quality then that of sealed systems. While this is far more myth than fact, it is true, that improperly ported systems are can devastate the frequency response, and while the driver may be producing very low distortion, the response curve can sound atrocious and affect the sound quality of the system. The fact is, ported systems are much more efficient than sealed systems and therefore can product more SPL with lower distortion especially in the lower frequencies. For full range bass, blind A/B tests suggest that ported systems (especially when passive radiators are used) are preferred to sealed systems and this is attributed to their dynamic headroom or rather ability to play louder with less distortion.

Not all mfr recommend enclosure specs are idea either. If you’re very serious about making your 4th order system linear, than proper modeling using accurate TS parameters will give you very good insight as to what you can expect from your system. We recommend that the ported box be made slightly larger than what you model unless the program accounts for non-linear thermal compression where BL lowers as a function of heat. Also remember that increasing the volume decreases tuning, so adjust for that if you need to by changing the port dimensions.

Port tuning is a function of the driver, the port dimensions and the box volume. Yes, we said driver! However the driver’s affect on the tuning is very slight and we can omit that safely and simply make tuning a function of purely the box and port dimensions. Longer ports and/or larger boxes decrease tuning, while the smaller boxes or shorter ports increase tuning. It is important that the port area is suffice the driver. High BL drivers with large cones and lots of power behind them needs lots of port area, while a lesser driver may not need quite as much. It can be difficult to fit ports in certain types of boxes with certain types of drivers at least if you’re attempting to maintain linear response so again, modeling software is critical. Multiple ports work the same as one port. It is simply a construction convenience; however, it is ideal to have the least amount of friction in a port so heavy flaring on both ends is ideal as well as using one port over more than one port to decrease the surface area of the port walls.

In a 4th order vented system, the driver does indeed roll off at 24dB per octave after tuning as the driver and port resonator’s energy cancel each other out as the system unloads. At tuning the port produces nearly all of the SPL of the system for a very short frequency range. As frequencies go higher, the active driver does more and more of the job. Because the system is vented, there is no air pressure to protect the driver as the port unloads. Also, unlike sealed systems, the driver’s excursion exponentially increases below tuning, so unless the driver is filtered, then mechanical damage can quite easily occur with surprisingly little power. This filter is often called a subsonic filter and should be set at or just below the tuning frequency so that the active drivers physically excursion reaches two maximum peaks, one before and one just after tuning. At tuning (Fc) the active driver will nearly stand still and the port does all the work. This is also the point where the system pulls the most current and power so if the amplifier is not up to the job, clipping is usually heard at Fc first.


4th Order Passive Radiator Systems

If you did not read “ported systems”, go ahead and read that then come back here. Passive systems are very similar to ported systems. They are a 4th order system, have a steep roll off below tuning, gain lots of low end sensitivity from the resonator and require approximately the same internal air volume. The difference is, ports are literally replaced with passive radiators. Now there is not easy conversion, but there are several key differences that could make PR systems ideal. PR systems don’t outright suffer from port turbulence or port resonance. These two distortion mechanisms can compromise sound quality in a ported system especially if you can hear the port! You’ll not likely be able to hear a passive radiator unless its suspension is compressing at Fc.

Passive radiators should ideally be used in pairs of 2 with a single active but this is not always necessary. Because they are resonated by the active driver and have a lot more mass and a lower resonate frequency they tend to have more momentum and move further which is why pairs are often used to maintain linearity and decrease potential compression. Audiopulse VMP’s are high excursion passive radiators and can be used on a 1 to 1 ratio with an active driver. Using one active with one passive or two passive one side of the baffle has a distinct advantage if the subwoofer is coupled or bolted to the vehicle. The subwoofer can convert the momentum of the passive to car and behave like an LFE bass shaker. If the passive are mass balanced then the subwoofer will not behave this way, either way the caustic energy would be relatively the same. The Audiopulse VMP also has another distinct advantage: It can be returned without rebuilding the box my simply loading or unloading hte mass washers. Adding mass to a passive radiator is analogous to increasing the length of a port. Adjusting tuning for maximum SPL or maximum low end extension is now possible.



Other Systems

The 4th order bandpass boxes are not a system we recommend for car audio. They have limited SPL and very limited bandwidth. In practice a well executed 4th order bandpass box will only be as loud as a sealed box, but with a smaller working frequency range especially in the higher frequencies. A better approach is to attempt a 6th order system where both the front and rear chambers are either vented or use passive radiators. You can then vent between those chambers to create an 8th order system, but these more elaborate types of systems are very complex and may not offer practical benefits over a typical 4th order vented box for full range bass. Horned systems or transmission line systems can also be used to increase efficiency and SPL. But these boxes tend to be very large and also difficult to design.


Top
 Profile  
 
Brian Steele
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:18 am 
Offline
Chronic TriniTuner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:37 pm
Posts: 596
Soundstream_626 wrote:
The 4th order bandpass boxes are not a system we recommend for car audio. They have limited SPL and very limited bandwidth. In practice a well executed 4th order bandpass box will only be as loud as a sealed box, but with a smaller working frequency range especially in the higher frequencies.


Actually one of the better car audio subs I designed for my use was a 4th order BP system. I basically designed it for 3dB gain across the passband and accepted a little passband ripple for a wider passband. Worked quite well.

These days, with all the high Xmax drivers available and cheap amplifier power, it's difficult to justify going with anything more than a good sealed box, unless you're looking for maximum output from as few drivers as possible, and you don't mind giving up the space to do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
my850csi
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:16 am 
Offline
Riding on 13's

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:01 am
Posts: 1
I use VERITAS transformers loading my rockford TD4001 to a constant 1 ohm load and increacing voltage to a set of Jl 12w7's to prevent impedence changing. Is there thoughts on this set up?


Top
 Profile  
 
[EMIN∃M]
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:28 pm 
Offline
Street 2NR
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 11:41 pm
Posts: 84
niceeeeeee


Top
 Profile  
 
Mikey1
 Post subject: Re: SUBWOOFER MYTHS
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:51 pm 
Offline
Riding on 13's

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:00 pm
Posts: 1
Great read man !


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours


Who is online

Registered users: $h0Ck@, 323tuner, 4 Eyes, aka, alexmusicdoctor, badstyles16, biggie, Bing [Bot], blacklight, bobby6killer, Breeds, Captain Awesome, chippy, deadstuntman, desert punk, discreetCamper, dougla_boy, drunkenscorpion, dyna9275, embryo, emerson, Exabot [Bot], Flyboy, fras, freshlexus2006, fstech, Google [Bot], gtiracer, hyperdude, InnovaTrends, J@v3D, jam526, JesuEric, JOSIE, jus kewl, Khaleem's Technology, kingp!n1, kjaglal76v2, knight, LalChun, LEGION, livewire, marcusrcr, marvocs3, Omenie, Pamela, PapaC, Patman, paulylambie, rallyracer, rohan1992, romey76, rudeboiray4, ryansk, sassi, searchingone, sheldon king, shivab, shotta 20, shougie, SINGHAUTO, skunk7, smoha'd2674, SNR, streetlifestyle, Streetwise Performance, strykr, teems1, toyotajumbie, trent, troublemaker, turbofowl, turboturnsmeon2, vegabass, videsht, whiteboi, wlturbo16psi, Yahoo [Bot], yasirmohammed, zagie


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
3NE-2NR