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[TEAM ADT]

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[gt4tified]

Hmmm....interesting observation. When we had the dealership for Community, no one was interested in horn loaded cabinets despite the compact size offered....all whom we approached with the exception of the Queen's Park Oval were being swayed by flying an virtual array systems.

Anyway, we're talking home audio here. If you could post some pics of what you've seen it might make for a better picture, since room size, design and decor are all significant contributing factors.

Also, are you speaking strictly to self-designed and custom built enclosures or off-the-shelf items?

[meccalli]

Horns for the most part are very impractical due to their size in most situations. However, a well designed one along with proper enclosure materials, sufficient size and matched drivers will be efficient across a large bandwidth without the resonant quirks associated with horns*. You probably saw alot of fullrange drivers in horns due to the need for their bass to be emphasized to match their top end. rear loaded horns are pretty much that, a coupling chamber for the rear wave, a throat, the exponential horn and the mouth.

[silent_riot]

I believe pugboy has experience with this...maybe he can share some input.

The advantages of a rear loaded horn for hi-fi (eg. using Fostex and Lowther drivers) would be the ability to use a single driver to cover the audible spectrum. This means that electronically, things are simpler.. no crossover and less passive components in the signal chain. This preserves the integrity of the signal.

Another advantage is coherency from a single driver...being a point source, imaging would be unmatched.

Another advantage is efficiency (of both the driver and the enclosure configuration). Less power is needed, that "live sound" dynamics are achieved.

[TEAM ADT]

Hello,

Well to be quite honest, I wasen't speaking about the fostex/lowther drivers.Were're talking about full on pro audio based equipment.

Here's a picture-




Thanks all,
Team ADT

[TEAM ADT]

Another picture I've found-

[TEAM ADT]

More pictures again-

[nervewrecker]

dosent brian have a thread concerning this already?

[TEAM ADT]

Hello,

I don't know lyndon, much discussion is needed before I go ahead with this project, alot of research has gone into this for the last couple weeks, and I just wanted the opinion of the good ole folks of trinituner's sq group.

We're looking at sound, not efficiency in this case.I'm building these for my personal listening in my office, and also as a possible demo for customers who require a reference point to what sound should sound like.

So from further research, I modeled a couple of different speakers in a couple different enclosures.It's very possible to retain a flat response from forty hertz to five hundred hertz, but with very moderate efficiency.High efficiency can be attained, but with a very limited pass band.

The woofer chosen is the eminence delta 12A.

Who would like to see a 3d model of our intended twelve inch driver horns?

[nervewrecker]

Im not 100% strict SQ but I like stuff that sounds pretty good. May I ask why from 40hz though?

[TEAM ADT]

Hello,

The 40hz is within the +/- 3db point of the entire response curve, if I stack them both together or build double versions , I can get down to 28hz @ -8db, given room gain can help me, the efficiency should go up a bit.

I'm shooting for a range of 35hz to 800hz +/- 6db per cabinet, with my intended +/- 3db points being 40hz to 500hz.

It would seem to me that I don't need much lower, or higher as there would be multiple elements in play here.To help smoothen out response I'm looking at crossover points at either 6 or 12db per slop, bessel alignment, so there's no peaks and audible losses in the crossover point.We're going with a simple passive crossover though, with attenuation controls for the mid and high.

Thanks,
Team ADT

[nervewrecker]

From 28hz still seems like you targeting more of the gallery crew and not so much the SQ.

To me the prupose of a Sub is to handle the subsonics and to some extent the infrasonics. A lot of the stuff I have demoed in SQ vehicles have the ability to handle below 30hz down into the infrasonic range with authority.
Here you are using one single driver to cover quite a broad area of the spectrum but do not have the ability to reproduce the lower end. Dont you need a pretty large room or open area to use these types of enclosures btw? I think I read somwhere that they do not work well in an area where there isnt enough air to load the throat or something so (making them impractical for in car use as well).

[- Rovin's car audio -]

dont know much about HT stuff but man those enclosures look big\ugly - i wud never put something like that in my house

just asking eh - is all that really necessary ?

why not keep it simple with basic sealed or pipe\areoported type enclosures ?

such as : ....

[TEAM ADT]

From 28hz still seems like you targeting more of the gallery crew and not so much the SQ.

To me the prupose of a Sub is to handle the subsonics and to some extent the infrasonics. A lot of the stuff I have demoed in SQ vehicles have the ability to handle below 30hz down into the infrasonic range with authority.
Here you are using one single driver to cover quite a broad area of the spectrum but do not have the ability to reproduce the lower end. Dont you need a pretty large room or open area to use these types of enclosures btw? I think I read somwhere that they do not work well in an area where there isnt enough air to load the throat or something so (making them impractical for in car use as well).

Hello,
You are correct, that is the purpose of a sub-woofer, the other question, what is audible about bass that goes under 30hz? I can agree to certain points, but I've been trying something a bit different in recent times.I can agree sub-bass is needed, but how much?, not alot in my experience.From actual listening, songs rarely have notes under that.

Perception can be physicaly there, you don't so much as hear these, but rather feel them, nothing a tactile transducer can't handle (aka bass shaker).Impression of the sound is the majority, if you can hear the tone, then you mind tells you others are there, thus you believe it, but even a simple suggestion while listening can make one think they hear and you can have selective hearing based on this.

Psyco-acoustics play a very large part of any sq base system.Your eyes ears and mind work one in one there, your ears hear one thing, but you see another, while your mind thinks something different.

A very good example would be the bose demonstrations.They chose the music they want you to hear, then make small suggestions while playing, but your eyes see something different, hence they always sound good to the average consumer.

Iasca judges, remember the blackout of head unit screens, windshield blocking and a few more interpretations of some cars?


I would explain a bit further, but in about 1/2 hr, have to go pick up kids.See you in a bit.I look forward to the responses !!!!

Thanks
Team ADT

[TEAM ADT]

I'm back,

Just for reference, they can work in very limited spaces, there are different size factors to suit different placement(corner,open floor ect).

I'm going to start this project this weekend, I'll post build pics as I can.

Thanks,
Team ADT

[gt4tified]

I think a better design for compact horn loaded bass cabinets for indoor usage would be Cerwin Vega's folded horn sub, known commonly as the mini-earthquake.

[silent_riot]

If those are the speakers, then the only advantage I can see is efficiency.
It boils down to the same technical aspects of pro audio vs hi fi speakers: efficiency, bandwidth, dispersion, required processing, ideal enclosure sizes.

[meccalli]

I've heard a few fullrange horns, not so much bass horns. If i were to state pros, it would be efficiency and LIVE sound- apart from the coloring the type of wood imparts is the way acoustic impedance in horns work due to a throat that provides a sort of *constant flow, restricting rarefactions back into the radiating area contrasted to other designs,, very dynamic for what its worth. Horns just make things louder by simple nature.

[Brian Steele]

Rear-loaded horns usually have some phase issues going on where the output of the horn crosses the output of the driver. It's not something I would consider for an SQ high-output system. If you want SQ, have a look around for the "Unity" horn design from Thomas Danley, and also look at Geddes' work in improving the midrange output of front-loaded horns. Pretty interesting stuff.

[TEAM ADT]

Hello,

I was looking into the unity horn work, and I've built a couple synergy horns a while back.I must admit, they are great, but not to nice on size though.

I'm still contemplating a few other designs, I got too much free time lol

Thanks for your input guys,
Team ADT