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Soundstream_626
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:40 pm 
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I hope this is not considered spamming, but its for educational purposes, before "custom sub builders" sucker you out of your money again. This is from David Moore, Founder and former Half owner of RE Audio. He and Scott Atwell engineered all RE subs ( SX, XXX HC MX, Destroyer etc) before the US Amps buyout:

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I'm getting more and more ridiculous requests all of a sudden. This is seeming to be becoming somewhat of a problem, not for just us, but other companies that I deal with and talk to often.

We're getting a lot of service requests asking for average subwoofers to be built to handle absolutely insane amounts of power. While we're able to build some very very high powered subwoofers out of existing motors and frames, we are not magicians.

A standard "large" subwoofer with a 3" voice coil is NOT going to handle 3500+ watts reliably on a daily basis for most users! While there are some situations, and some users where this may be SOMEWHAT possible, 98% of the time, it's NOT going to happen.

A basic rule of thumb is as follows:
Most large 3" coil subwoofers can be built to handle anywhere from 0-2500w rms. These types of subs are like the RE MT, DD 9500, fi btl, IA Death Penalty, Nightshade, ETC. In some cases, we can build them to handle around 3000w rms.

Most smaller to medium sized 3" coil subs are going to meet their limits at around 1500-1800w rms. These subs are things like the DD 3500, RE SX, RD Alpha, etc.

VERY large 4" coil subwoofers can be built to handle up to 3500-4000w rms. These are the SS XXX, TC 5400/4HP, TRF, etc.

These higher power handling numbers DO come at a cost though. People ask me for a DD 9500 that handles 3500w rms and "kills on the lows". Guess what? It's not happening!!

By stuffing more spiders into the assembly to handle the extreme power and control excursion of the assembly, you're killing the low end capability of the subwoofer. You're making it greatly LESS sensitive, requiring even more power to get good output from it. Why would anyone want a sub that plays like crap from 40hz and down, just to pour 1000w extra into it and get the same peak output that they would have gotten with a looser suspension and les power?

Basically... when you ask me to do such a build, you're just running in circles. You want the sub to handle more power than it "really" can, and by us doing what we have to do to ensure that you don't destroy it in 5 seconds, you create a subwoofer that performs the same or worse on 3000w than it would have with 2500w or less.

Have you ever really thought about the performance gain from 2500w to 3500w? How much extra output do you think that you will get? In the real world, less than 1db.

This problem is happening because huge amplifiers are getting cheap, and it seems that just because people can run out and buy a 4000w amp, they think that a single subwoofer is going to reliably handle it. News flash... it cant!

While we want to honor your requests for extreme subwoofers, we still want you to be happy with what we end up building for you. Please keep this thread in mind when you send us a request to build your subwoofer.

We'll build anything that you want us to, but we CANNOT warranty a subwoofer with burned leads, ripped parts, burned or damaged voice coils, etc. These are all common failures when using subwoofers with too much power.

I'll be linking far fetched requests to this thread as a response, so if you post in here, make sure it's something helpful. Any silly responses will be deleted.

Thanks guys!
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-David Moore


Take SR`s advice use multiple subs for the kind of output you looking for.


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silent_riot
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Redesign your enclosure, ensure you have midbasses that can actually play midbass, and get the system tuned by someone sensible.


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- Rovin's car audio -
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:49 pm 
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nice article SS626


u notice i asked about voltage 1st since i suspected that batt bank is too small & probably stock alt being used too

about this whole 5k \ 7k \ 10k bisnis on 1 sub for long playing is exaggerating , all who doing this in carshow only using that amt of power for 45seconds & picking\choosing their songs very wisely , songs with a long intro , high bass & intervals in d bass , enclosure tuned high too like near 50hz

ppl shud know too music is dynamic meaning peaks & dips so d amp is not putting out d maximum wrms rating at all times unless u running a constant sinewave ...


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noyztoyz
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:13 pm 
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I still disagree that even for 45 secs the sub takes the amt of power they say it does. I did testing on a lot of out winiing competition vehicles so I know.


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- Rovin's car audio -
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:57 pm 
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its possible that even with a big amp it still doesnt really mean d sub getting X amt of power

forgot to mention above about box rise\Independence rise , in layman's term d type of box will result in impedance rise so actually in spite of having a rated 10k @ 1ohm amp d amp may actually be seeing a high load like 2\3\4ohms so d sub still not "getting" d "maximum amt" of amp power

those who actually know what they doing account for this too ...


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smr_fingers
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:46 pm 
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shiva listen to noyztoyz rovin roach and sr what they say is correct...

i think the box should be retuned to play more lows and get some 10z for the midbass u want...

noway that amp delivering 4k constantly with ur current and remember is a daily car u wanna park up n buss man ears for hours....u dont wanna play 2 songs and then your coil smelling

build suited box for sub and get an amp to power the sub u have with some headroom (what i would have done)

i think using two subs will put u in a similar position because u dont have proper current for the amp to deliver clean power anyway

if u make a bigger batt bank however u can use the amp on two or 3 suited subs for daily


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shotcaller
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:41 am 
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Great advice guys and thank you soundstream_626 for that article...really opened my eyes


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noyztoyz
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:07 am 
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The poster said before 'cusrom sub builders sucker you out of your money's

The hardest 2 single 15s right now are custom subs
the hardest double 15 right now is custom subs

And the mass quantities of xxx15s that Steve's were able to sell out, mass quantities of dd95s that Rrr was able to sell, the Orion hcca15s, some of the larger ground zeros, massive csx treos .. all these big power subs,

Who winning categories with them right now?


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noyztoyz
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:10 am 
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I don't disagree with the article by Moore above, its right, but it is not complete, it is not able to answer my question above.


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Soundstream_626
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:16 pm 
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The sucker you out of your money part comes when I have seen on one occasion in the classifieds a sub was being sold buy " sub builder x " and said the sub was built to take 10 000 rms. On another occasion, another " custom sub builder" said his custom sub can take 7k rms.

How was the builder able to ascertain these ratings? Its not that hard to get a motor and assemble soft parts and make a sub. In my electronics class regular Joes like me did it in one shot. How do you know however, if you have set the coil depth correctly? or what the change in characteristic of the sub was obtained by using a thicker or longer coil?

A few guys have woofer testers, which arent hard to get; its around 100 USD, but I`m pretty sure when the sub is built, whatever parameters it ends up having are kept. No matter if its for better or worse. Why? Because the new coil can " take more power" and in the end, that one point is what those custom sub builders in Trinidad sell their creations on. POWER HANDLING


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meccalli
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:16 pm 
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now, i've never handled anything over 1.5k (in car), but if i recall, and correct me if i'm wrong -can't apocalypses take 5k daily?? I rem superstany over on roe who ran 2 18's on 8 ext 2000d's.I believe the feature install is still on there.


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nervewrecker
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:29 pm 
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You guys familiar with the frank? (the frankenwoofer) :idea:





powered by an atomic 5k:





There is now the Lvl 6 and neo's so wrt the argument in here....yea, there are subs that will take your 4kw and smile.


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-Roach-
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:38 pm 
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Dan There's Only A Few Level 6 In The World... And I Believe They Are Rated 3000rms/6000watts Peak.... The Level 5's Are Rated 2500rms...

WRT Frank... That Sub Get More Licks Than Ah Blind Man Playing All Fours.... They Put That Shitload Of Power On The Sub For "Testing The Limits" Not Music.... Sure There Are Subs That Can Take 5000rms... But For How Long?... :|


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nervewrecker
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:46 pm 
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He said his voltage is not up to 14.4v so there is no way he is getting that full 4kw out of that amp. Frank took a lot of abuse for a mere 2500watt sub and lived. With his voltage, I am pretty sure a 2500watt sub will manage fine.
Music is dynamic so there is no way any sub is going to see that 4kw anyways, i'd say 2/3 of the rated power output from an amp can be safely used for sizing a sub.


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noyztoyz
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Soundstream_626 wrote:
The sucker you out of your money part comes when I have seen on one occasion in the classifieds a sub was being sold buy " sub builder x " and said the sub was built to take 10 000 rms. On another occasion, another " custom sub builder" said his custom sub can take 7k rms.

How was the builder able to ascertain these ratings? Its not that hard to get a motor and assemble soft parts and make a sub. In my electronics class regular Joes like me did it in one shot. How do you know however, if you have set the coil depth correctly? or what the change in characteristic of the sub was obtained by using a thicker or longer coil?

A few guys have woofer testers, which arent hard to get; its around 100 USD, but I`m pretty sure when the sub is built, whatever parameters it ends up having are kept. No matter if its for better or worse. Why? Because the new coil can " take more power" and in the end, that one point is what those custom sub builders in Trinidad sell their creations on. POWER HANDLING


ok i agree with this

basis of sub modification is this
i think subs can be modified to increase the sound output from it (and thereby power handling), but it is at users risk, there are advantages to this eg. higher power handling and sound and pressure levels attained on certain frequencies - which may be desirable to users, and lower handling on certain frequencies which the user might not care about

BUT a company wont do this and sell it, they would prefer build an all round sub
cuz they cant give warranty on the modified one due to it able to be easily damaged by a dumb user
no company would like calls day and night about their products failing, or seeing forums plastered with complaints all over


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nervewrecker
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:16 pm 
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refer to my post there.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=440110


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noyztoyz
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:35 pm 
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u ^^

becasue a man make a video name 5k playing a sub, it means the named sub handling 5k comfortably?

wtb a 40k amp and a 12 inch zebra then
and then put a video on youtube, for u to interpret


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nervewrecker
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:13 pm 
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noyztoyz wrote:
u ^^

becasue a man make a video name 5k playing a sub, it means the named sub handling 5k comfortably?

wtb a 40k amp and a 12 inch zebra then
and then put a video on youtube, for u to interpret


You saw the condition of frank? After all that abuse he lived, so what I was saying is that 5kw didnt kill a 2500 watt sub and this guys amp does 3200watts at 2 ohms at 14.4v so I am pretty sure a 2500 watt sub will take his 3200watts of dynamic power with his electrical system that isnt up to par.
I am also pretty sure a good 2000 watt sub will do fine as well and I am pretty sure subs like the lvl 6 and neo prototype like I mentioned will hold up on 4kw of dynamic power (although I highly doubt he will be buying those).


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-Roach-
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:38 am 
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nervewrecker wrote:
You saw the condition of frank? After all that abuse he lived

Thats Just The Thing... NOBODY Would Want To Spend $4000-$5000 On A Sub For It To Look Like That After Taking 4000rms+.... They Used Frank For TESTING THE LIMITS... Lol... He Was Never Able To Play Music (For Long)... The Point Of This Thread Is That The OP Is Looking For A Sub That Can TAKE 4000RMS ON MUSIC... Not Burp.... Which To Me Is Impossible... :lol:


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agabriel
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:23 am 
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ok so OP if you can get a sub 15 inch company rated 5000 rms but cost about $9000 and weighs about 120 pounds would you buy it??


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agabriel
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:27 am 
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cause to me dat wudnt make much sense jus so u cud drive around and say u have a 5000rms sub


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-Roach-
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:46 am 
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Honestly I'd Take SR's Advice And Invest In Multiple Subs.... More Cone Area... Also You Can Properly Power Them With That MA Audio Amp.... 4 RE SX 10's... Each Rated 1000rms I Believe... And You On!...


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meccalli
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 9:04 am 
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http://www.realmofexcursion.com/feature ... index.html
here it is, in the forums when asked, he recommended 6-7k daily per.


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kurpal_v2
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 9:53 pm 
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agabriel wrote:
ok so OP if you can get a sub 15 inch company rated 5000 rms but cost about $9000 and weighs about 120 pounds would you buy it??




Not really eh, with $9000 you could get pretty decent neo sub that would handle a bit of power


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SR
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:03 pm 
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noyztoyz wrote:
The poster said before 'cusrom sub builders sucker you out of your money's

The hardest 2 single 15s right now are custom subs
the hardest double 15 right now is custom subs

And the mass quantities of xxx15s that Steve's were able to sell out, mass quantities of dd95s that Rrr was able to sell, the Orion hcca15s, some of the larger ground zeros, massive csx treos .. all these big power subs,

Who winning categories with them right now?



whoever walks with the biggest crowd.............

bring them under the meter and prove it


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shotcaller
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:33 pm 
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considering using 2 15s once it can fit and the new enclosure will be tuned around 36hz


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smr_fingers
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:37 am 
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what 15s u considering?


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carfreak1024
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:59 pm 
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SR wrote:
noyztoyz wrote:
The poster said before 'cusrom sub builders sucker you out of your money's

The hardest 2 single 15s right now are custom subs
the hardest double 15 right now is custom subs

And the mass quantities of xxx15s that Steve's were able to sell out, mass quantities of dd95s that Rrr was able to sell, the Orion hcca15s, some of the larger ground zeros, massive csx treos .. all these big power subs,

Who winning categories with them right now?



whoever walks with the biggest crowd.............

bring them under the meter and prove it


i've been hearing this under the meter thing, and to me it makes a bit of sense and none at all. Sure it will level the playing field as no crowd is making the decision but rather an honest machine. However different vehicles with different boxes peak differently. For example i heard a tuner's system consisting of 2 DC level 3s and he made 140+db i believe sealed up on the dash and believe me it was loud sealed up, and when he opened his doors to demo it for me it sounded no where near as loud. On the other hand in my car when my car was sealed up it sounded moderately loud and when the doors were open it was like a tornado in there way louder. So in the type of competition where people competing for "gallery" i think sealed up on the dash doesn't make much sense!

Now if you talking about meca style where the meter is outside the vehicle and yuh physically replace the crowd with the meter then that is a GREAT IDEA!

Just in case some of you wondering about box rise, ever wonder why you see so many people wiring their subs to .5 and their amps are rated at 1 ohm stable, doesn't mean their amps are stronger than the average joe's, it just means that they are able to run that load due to their configuration of sub, box, amp, and even the car!

And what noyztoyz saying is true, fellas out their in comp rarely run 4k to one sub. And he does have the equipment to test this as well as the connections in the music industry to test the winning competition vehicles out there. If its one guy out there who knows a bit of physics when it comes to gallery music and actually has the resources and willingness to scientifically get answers to the questions that present themselves in an install, its him! What other powerseller do you know clamps your amp and gives you a tested power output before you leave? ummmm none!

And when they do rebuild subs to take more power it sometimes DOES work, i've seen it myself and the car can actually play some DECENT lows, and is insanely LOUD. Companies away have begun to make advances in sub design and use some simple clever techniques to keep subs alive while under heavy loads, one of those comps is sundown audio, they now stick and stitch all of the suspensions to the cones to make the joint stronger, and tooled all their baskets to allow for way more excursion than the motor and soft parts are able to achieve, hence no bottoming out and seperation at the neckpoint. This ain't no sales pitch here, but i am sure that the NS V3s can handle 4k clamped from the factory even with its 3" vc.

But VCs have really gotten better in terms of power handling in recent times! if you wanna know what a RE VC looks like after being hit with a 15krms amp, go check kaizen. The sub suffered a mechanical failure but the VC was perfect after the assault, not saying the sub saw 15k, but the vehicle was using an 18volt charging system and sufficient batteries, so you can be sure it was ALOT of power.


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-Roach-
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:13 am 
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SR wrote:
noyztoyz wrote:
The poster said before 'cusrom sub builders sucker you out of your money's

The hardest 2 single 15s right now are custom subs
the hardest double 15 right now is custom subs

And the mass quantities of xxx15s that Steve's were able to sell out, mass quantities of dd95s that Rrr was able to sell, the Orion hcca15s, some of the larger ground zeros, massive csx treos .. all these big power subs,

Who winning categories with them right now?



whoever walks with the biggest crowd.............

bring them under the meter and prove it

Not Really Making Sense Going "Under The Meter"... Check Wisemen 2 12" Pickup... Them RIPPIN Up The Meter... But When Last You Ever Hear Them Winning The Judged Category?....


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LOUD AND CLEAR AUDIO
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:20 am 
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have a MK2 COIL to sell if anyone mounting up a monster -- 15'' ie also ROCKFORD POWER SERIES MAGNET AND FRAME


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