The comprehensive 4age thread

[TURBOT]

fellas
whe we could do to the engine to boost hp? it done have the free flow exhaust and intake setup we gonna work on the cai
ne maintainance tips as well
someone was tellin me clean the tb's

[Sully]

Larger injectors and an engine management unit. That could help.

[blu-rolla]

laziness boy. try ah Yahoo! search. have MANY sites.

while yuh doin dat see if it have any way you could adjust the VVT cut in (similar to honda's VTEC controlers).

cleaning out any imperfections from the whole intake system is a good option.
it have plenty 'machine shop' stuff yuh could do that most local 2ners seem to find iz below them. prefer to buy US aftermarket stuff for the same gains.

[Sully]

while yuh doin dat see if it have any way you could adjust the VVT cut in (similar to honda's VTEC controlers).

Replace with a Haltec ecu. You can adjust the VVT cut in point.

[Strauss]

laziness boy. try ah Yahoo! search. have MANY sites.

while yuh doin dat see if it have any way you could adjust the VVT cut in (similar to honda's VTEC controlers).

I thought you only need to adjust the VVT when you are running boost? If the engine is not modded in that regard, how can u do a better job than what the Toyota engineers spent years perfecting?

[blu-rolla]

same reason they use VTEC controllers to make it kick in earlier. it aint always for boost applications.
the manufacturers tune for everyday drivers. but ah could be wrong.
anyway, I only suggested he do the search because I aint gonna do the research..... I only deal with 16 valvers .

[cdmg]

Somebody answer the man nah. I want to know too.

[cdmg]

What about cams?

[blu-rolla]

What about cams?

engine still needs to 'Breathe' better first. yuh wouldn't turbo yuh car first on a 1inch exhaust. simple mods first.

hear what.....GOOGLE.COM.

[Strauss]

What about cams?

Full racing cams? You wanna drive that every day?
Semi-racing? Hmmm if u going thru that expense... might as well turbo and done

[TURBOT]

i hear these motors could take up to 7 psi stk everything
what you all know about that?
d only thing i really see goin wrong there is that with our lame gas would have to retard timin plenty and loss power

[TURBOT]

compression is like 11.5 : 1 or something?

[Sully]

11:1 compression.

[TURBOT]

aight the 4 tb's will be cleaned this weekend
would see if it free's up some ponies
SULLY what plugs are you using and who else has the black top??

[Mitsu power]

^^ there arent much <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=hp&v=56">hp</a> gains u can do with this engine the 20v blacktop is by itself a all motor engine .. the only thing is turbo his ass which will be hard because u have the c/r , 4tb, and the vvl to deal with ... the most i heard is guys using wilder cams and twicking ecu .. porting the engines spoils the head flow but cleaning to head is a wort wild venture (removing cast filings ) another upgrade is the 1.8 block i thing its a 7afe and the 4age20v head ... theres the also a debate that the 4age20v <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=silver&v=56">silver</a> head is of a better <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=design&v=56">design</a> than the black top head so the porting of the <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=silver&v=56">silver</a> head to the size of the black head and using that will yeild better <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=hp&v=56">hp</a> ...

[TURBOT]

u mean vvt not vvl

[blu-rolla]

or VVTLi if yuh want to get technical.

[Sully]

or VVTLi if yuh want to get technical.

wrong again. The 20 valve blacktop only had VVT, not even VVTi.

[blu-rolla]

dat iz why iz best I stick with 16 valve.

[Sully]

The older 4AGEs (16valve) didn't have VVT. I assume you're refering to the new generation of engines.

[daNdAdDa]

mitsu power is the only person to hit it almost directly on the head

turboin that engine will lead to much more trouble than it is worth....there is a blitz kit for that engine with stage one costin $6000 U.S.D. and stage 2 being about $1500 U.S.D.

the point he made about using the 7a block is very accurate and also VERY expensive.....it will be able to handle about 7 psi and would be a 1800 c.c. engine and supposidly kix ass.....it has not been done many times and is kinda iffi.....

the point about the ST( silver top) being of a better engineering than the black top is totally wrong....the black top is a newer engine and toyota tried to get rid of some of the problems of the silver top in that black top.....

so basically....yuh stuck wid what u have......

[TURBOT]

SULLY what plugs are you using??

[NickJr.]

Let me give you all something to read.

The 20-Valve 4AGE replaced the 4AGZE Supercharged engines. Just like the early and late 16 Valve 4Ges, they also underwent revisions. The Silver Top was introduced in the Corolla AE101 (1992), and the Black Top in the Corolla AE111 (1997). Both engines used Toyota’s version of Variable cam timing- VVT. Bore and stroke remained as in the original 1st and 2nd Generation 4AGEs (early) big port (TVIS) and (late) small port (non-TVIS). Similarly compression was upped in the later models. The blocks are identical to the late model AE92 generation blocks (and naturally the SC blocks too).

MODIFYING THE 4AG / 4AGZE

Block: The 4AG block is a free revving and strong bottom end. A stock block will survive in excess of 350 HP if air-charged in the 8000 RPM range, or 250 HP in the 10000RPM range. The 2nd generation blocks with oil squirters should be the minimum considered. The connecting rods are also beefier, similar to the 4AGZ. The 1st generation block had smaller wrist pins and rod journals, which should be fine for milder tunes. For serious competition the rods should be replaced.

Stroking the crankshaft to a maximum 81mm will keep the RPM capability intact. Bores can be brought out to 83mm, but try to keep it under 82.5mm. There is no need for the Formula Atlantic crankshaft. Reject blocks that will need 83mm to clean up, for sure there is head damage also.

Stay away from the 7AF to 7AG conversion since the crank is not forged and the flywheel bolts are too small, with no provision available to upgrade. The rods are potential failures also when subjected to real 4AG RPM operation. It is an exercise in creativity but a total sidestep for any real performance-oriented application. If you like the torque of the 7AF, use the complete engine.

Cylinder Head: There are some issues about the Formula Atlantic head. The Formula Atlantic head is a modified 4AG head- port and polished with the valve adjusters changed to the under-the-bucket shim arrangement (similar to the 2TG and 18RG). The valves and springs are different too. This modification is required when running camshafts with high lift and/or long duration (above 300). For street purposes there is no advantage converting to this adjustment method or preparing the head to Atlantic specifications. The port and chamber modifications will decrease performance- short of preparing the complete engine to Formula Atlantic specifications, which will render the package totally unstreetable.

There is very minimal head preparation needed, aside from match porting and polishing the runners. Porting the heads on this 16 valve Twin Cam more often decreases the air velocity- resulting in poorer throttle response. Despite others claim of a 20HP or more increase- on modified heads alone, this is simply impossible without camshaft or pistons changed. Toyota has casted and machined all their 4 valve heads to very close and accurate tolerances for street (and rally) use.

Camshaft choices for stock EFI systems and pistons should be limited to less than 265 duration. Upgraded blocks with pistons of at least 10.5:1 compression may use up to 288. It is recommended to convert to under-the-bucket shims for durations over 300 (with corresponding higher compression pistons). Installing high duration cams on the stock set-up will cause the shims to fall-off and instant result in instant engine seizure. As always stay away from reground cams with non-factory lobe centers, you will have problems getting the correct adjustment shims.

On the 4AGZ intake manifold- the #1 runner, which is dog-legged, must be filled and recontoured. This is a simple procedure that must be done. Be sure to frequently check the supercharger oil also. Many units have died because of oil starvation.

The 5 valve head is Toyota's bonus to the 4AG after the 4AGZE went away. With the additional valve and independent throttle bodies- the 4AG 20 valve is a unique head design. This head unfortunately has many proprietary pieces and the only way to do a conversion to a 5 valve is only with a complete engine. The distributor position may be a problem in RWD installations. (Note: There are 2 versions of the 5-valve engine, see related information under Japanese engines).

Supercharger / Turbo Upgrade- The preparation for the turbo set-up is to lower the compression. The 4AG / 4AGZ that will see boosts in excess of 10 psi should be set-up with forged pistons. Blocks with the oil squirters must be used as these come with the better rods. For boosts higher than 18 psi, the rods have to be replaced. Oil cooler is mandatory, and for all applications a bigger radiator is a good investment. Use the 4AGZ injectors and fuel pressure regulator for turbo conversions of the normally aspirated 4AG. 550cc injectors are available for serious boost / engine outputs. The fuel pump can be replaced with the Supra Turbo pump, a direct bolt-in.

Fuel System- If at all possible avoid using the dual side-draft carbs. The cost for the carbs / manifold plus ignition conversion will come close to a new fuel injection system. The EFI system will be adequate for minor tuning. 4AG/Z EFI systems use either an AFM (air flow meter) or MAP (manifold air pressure). The AFM model is actually preferred since it will allow the user some adjustability for modified cams; there is no compensation available with MAP sensors. There is no advantage to converting to a MAP sensor, the idea of loss HP due to the AFM restriction is not true.

Ignition System: Even 4AGZs equipped with DFI (direct fire ignition), will see a performance increase with an ignition amplifier. This is one of very few Toyota ignitions that are marginal. Colder plugs must be used with any upgrade. For carburetor equipped 4AGs the distributor has to supplemented with a timing controller, MSD 6A, and a coil.

Have fun reading it. It's alot to take in but... these guys know their stuff

[NickJr.]

Oh one more thing

Some Recommended Set-ups:

For Stock configuration- Overhauling the 4AG is straightforward. Machine Shop experience in rebuilding the head is a must. Bores should be kept at the maximum 83mm. If available newer rods with the bigger wrist pin must be used- with the later model high compression pistons. Clean up the ports and EGR passages at the same time. Verify crank pin sizes since there are differences.

For Modified configuration- Use the 2nd generation blocks. The smaller port heads (non-TVIS) heads have better air velocity, specially important when using carburetors. Depending on the EFI system used, choose the mildest cam available- you will have better results. Adjustable cam pulleys will ensure accurate timing and cylinder pressure tuning. Forged high compression pistons are reasonably priced and are a good upgrade. Modifying to a late model head will require fabrication of a new intake layout for RWD. The throttle body can also be enlarged to maximize air intake.

The 4AGZE conversion for normally aspirated models will need the correct power steering pump, air conditioning compressor, and alternator. This pieces are unique to this application- and the proper bracket is also a must. The top mounted intercooler will fit under the normally aspirated MR2 hood and will need a hood scoop on FWD Corollas (but a front mount intercooler is still the best set-up. The bigger (14 psi) crank pulley is a must.

There are as many tuning theories as there are tuning shops. The most important step in preparing an engine is to finalize the exact set-up before buying any part. Displacement increase that does not affect the bore / stroke ratio, to the detriment of RPM potential will give the engine the edge. The stock 16 valve head has undergone a lot of development time in terms of cam configuration- unlike a displacement increase (done properly), a wrong camshaft choice will result in a completely unsatisfactory set-up.

For Racing configuration- The preparation of any engine in sanctioned Motorsport events are tightly regulated. Know the rules before starting. FIA Group A or N parts homologated for use in these engines are available. Any serious preparation will start by converting the valve adjustment to the racing type (TRD) under-the bucket shims. This will allow the use of any camshaft combination. Formula Atlantic spec con-rods may be used with the correct piston (19mm). For supercharged or turbo applications stay with the 20mm pins. Lightened flywheels are available, to ensure the fastest throttle response. Cylinder port and chamber configuration approaching Formula Atlantic specs can be used- but never the full Atlantic spec if the engine is not going into a formula chassis or dune buggy. (The 5-valve engine, used in Japan's Formula Toyota, is also supported with tuning parts.)

[Mitsu power]

^^^ as i said there is a debate on the swaping of the heads if its better or worst .. but to me the swaping of the 7a block isnt wort it because u loss all the goodies that trd did in the 4age block .. but there the issue that if u use the supercharge block 4agze u will get u will get the decompression u want and all u have to do is worry about timing and fuel (head ache ) unless u put in apressure switch and extra injectors and when u lean out the injector fire and is gas u pumping for so ..(high gas bill) or a ems that can handel the vvt , 4tb , and boost (which in it self is a pressure to tune )or u get a piggy back system .. all and all the money u spend to get this engine work and performing will be alot not to mention a guy in a 4agze with a turbo and nos that cost 1/2 of what u spend own your ass ... so i say nos his ass and consider yourself luck to own a piece of racing history

[TURBOT]

hehehehe i like how yuh talk
keep it na and put ah damn big wet shot in he arse
big as in like 50 or a lil more if it could handle it
some octane booster
a lil retard of the timing
yuh good to embarass men

[cdmg]

I was thinking of moving to the 3sgte as an upgrade to my 20 valve as my target is 200 to 250Hp. The more I think about it thogh, I would like to build up the 20 valve. It may cost less that the 3sgte convesrsion and is something I could accomplish over time.
First thing I want to do is to make sure that it is running the best it can stock and then start to mod from there. I find though that info on modding this engine is very scarce as people prefer to work withy the 16 valve 4age or the 4agze. Believe me, I have been doing the research for a long time now. My main plan was to turbo it and I even recently found one on the Net which I posted in another thread on this forum. But it is real pressure to get anybody to tell you exactly how to do it. The hard thing is that I already have access to a T2 turbocharger which should be able to give the the 7psi or so that I am looking for but no one to give guidance.
This is why I think that I will try to go the NA route as that is wahat the engine was designed for and it should be easier to find guidance where this is concerned.

CG.

[Sully]

TURBOT, Not sure about the plugs right now. I still don't have the car. Work started on it yesterday.

[Raziel]

The BlackTop is a pain and expensive to up the power, besides the usual small mod, small gain options you really can only go

1. N/A = Head job, Camshaft and valve spring change, possible 1800cc conversion. Good Site to check

http://www.tedcomponents.com/4ag.htm

2. Turbo = Blitz or custom job

Both routes are very expensive, to get the blacktop above 200Bhp (the blitz kit claims 300!) is going to cost over TT$25,000, more like TT$40,000 if it's the Blitz kit.

Alternate options, buy a 4A-GZE and swap the supercharger for a turbo, or switch to the 3S-GTE

The Engine swap will actually be a lot cheaper than making big HP out of the Blacktop.

[NickJr.]

cdmg, if it's the 3SGTE you are talking about modding here is some stuff I found on it

MODIFYING THE 3SGE / 3SGTE

Block: There are two different blocks- turbo and non-turbo. The basic difference is that on the turbo block, the oil passages for the turbo unit is pre-plumbed and piston oil coolers are present. There is no strength difference. The later generation blocks have better connecting rods (rods were similar on NA and Turbo of the same generation). Early generation conrods are marginal if mega horsepower build up is anticipated. As a minimum upgrade 1st generation rod bolts to ARP units. Even in disassembly some rod bolts would snap! For any extended performance upgrades go to Carillo Rods. (See other notes for RWD conversion).

These blocks are lightweight but structurally stable. There is no perceived torsional weakness even under very high boost and RPM levels. The crankshaft is also very robust. Chamfering the oil holes will help reduce friction and guarantee good oil supply. Oil supply insufficiency has killed more engines than boost! There are casting provisions for installing piston oil coolers on the NA blocks. A competent machine shop should be able to tap into the oil galleys with no problems. The oil feed bolt and squirter is now available separately.

The latest generation blocks can be identified by an aluminum block / oil pan extension. The oil filter is relocated low in the front. The timing components are all different from the previous 2 generations. We support parts for these engines.

Stroking the engine to 5S specifications is a possibility. Although the 3SG bore / stroke is already optimized for performance, the additional 200cc of the 5S combined with a G head will provide a noticeable increase in torque. This will however require new pistons. Ultimate HP output will be limited by the weaker crank design. Definitely not for turbo applications.

Cylinder Head: Like all Toyota G type 16 valve heads, only minor porting is required. Except for early All Trac heads (ST165), all heads can use the aftermarket cams. On the older ST165 All Tracs, you will need to modify the lifter or valve because they will bottom up. Always check the cam manufacturers suggestion specially if the lift is more than 7.5mm and duration is over 288! Convert to- shim-under-the bucket, valve adjustment if the car will see serious competition use. There is no advantage going bigger valves, unless they have to be replaced anyway. If the heads need to be resurfaced because of warpage- do not exceed 1mm cut. If it needs to be heated to straighten out- replace the head. The head has to be surfaced to a mirror finish if a metal head gasket is being used.

The 2nd generation (small port) head is advisable on a ground-up engine preparation. This head will flow better than the old TVIS type head- for turbo applications or individual throttle body installations (and carbs too!). The 3rd generation head, when available, is very hard to get and expensive, but still cheaper than buying the shim adjustment conversion package. We have some available. The 4th generation is almost impossible to set-up because all the electronic functions are electrically related to the ECU- meaning drivetrain, suspension controls, and steering inputs are first processed. Short of a stand-alone fuel injection, it cannot be modified. If you have to ask how- please do not even begin.

Rear Wheel Drive: The 2000cc 3SG is a good choice for RWD conversion. We can supply the engine brackets, oil pick-up, oil pan, flywheel, clutch set, and other related pieces to install in a RWD vehicle. There is a choice of either T-type (Corolla) or W-type (Celica) transmissions. Unless necessary, use the W type transmission. The T-type transmission is marginal when engine output in excess of 180 hp is expected.

The non-turbo block has provisions for the L & R engine brackets. The turbo block will need further modification to use (there is no provision for the engine bracket on the turbo side). Whether the planned application is turbo or non turbo- the NA block offers more flexibility because of the present engine bracket bosses. Piston oil coolers can be retrofitted on the block. Another advantage is that the oil cooler can be relocated away from the area where the factory turbo normally hang. After-market turbos cannot use the original factory turbo plumbing anyway.

Depending on the install, the water pipe routing will also need to be reconfigured (similar to the 4AG transverse going into a RWD application). The distributor will also need to be configured, or the firewall modified to clear it. A stand-alone Fuel injection set-up, with ignition capability is the preferred way to go. This way the ignition timing can be derived from a crank trigger, bypassing the distributor problem.

As mentioned earlier, oil delivery is crucial. Although the original transverse oil pan can be used, the pick-up and baffling is completely wrong. You have to get the correct RWD pan and oil pick-up, or risk losing the engine due to oiling problems. The late model engines have a higher output oil pump.

Turbo Upgrade: The 3SGTE in both the All-Trac (GT4, overseas) and MR2 have numerous after-market turbo upgrades available. The factory turbo is able to run boosts up to 14 psi (1 bar). Trying to boost above this is ill-advised. In order of importance- the exhaust, intercooler, boost controller, ignition, fuel computer, turbo, vein pressure converter, injectors are the steps in upgrading. For anything over 12 psi sustained, a new block with forged pistons is necessary. Adjusting compression ratio for a non-turbo being upgraded to turbo, by the head gasket is not recommended. The availability of metal head gaskets in various thickness and composition is more to compensate for the milling of the head and block, and slight adjustments in compression.

The most usable turbo upgrade is based on the factory CT26 stock turbo. We were the first company to do this and maintain proprietary specifications. Some companies also perform factory turbo based upgrades, but ........... There are numerous other aftermarket single turbo set-ups, but they are not as streetable, and for daily drivers become truly intolerable.