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Lance
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 9:18 am 
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Hi Guys,

I've recently gotten very interested in the electronic side of the EJ20 platform. I've started this thread so that we can have discussions related to engine management and tuning (specific to the EJ20 ECU logic, although EVOs are somewhat similar). This is not going to be a thread to provide complete tuning knowledge nor do I recommend persons to start messing with your ECU Parameters. Professional Tuners are there for a reason.

Its merely meant to provide general knowledge on ECU tuning and how mechanical modifications might affect your vehicle and what map amendments might be needed. I have quite a bit of resources that I've come across and I'll share it later. I'm very new to this as well.

Tuning used to be like a black box for me, intimidating and complex. But once you open it up you realize its all physics and logic. In the end it helps you to understand your vehicle better.

Its a thread for us all to learn. So share what you think is useful and feel free to ask questions.


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16 cycles
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 3:46 pm 
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probably the only thread where i can say 'I AM 16 ....' and it'd make sense in more ways than one....


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 3:49 pm 
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^yup.....16 is the way to go :D


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Lance
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:10 am 
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This is the tuning guide that first got me started.

It was complied by some of the contributors from the Romraider forum.

Its a read even if you're not specifically interested in tuning. It can help you understand how your ECU logic works and ultimately help you diagnose issues that you might have or probably might encounter as you upgrade.

It's located here: https://sites.google.com/site/asubienew ... de/ver-1-0


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Lance
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:12 am 
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This video is VERY useful in understanding boost control on the Subaru. It's for the COBB platform but pretty much the same logic for traditional opensource.



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Lance
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:14 am 
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Attachment:
ImageUploadedByTriniTuner1431616464.200288.jpg
ImageUploadedByTriniTuner1431616464.200288.jpg [ 72.44 KiB | Viewed 1461 times ]


Bought this a few days ago for logging and stuff.


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phaze
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:36 am 
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interesting.....are you gonna attempt in the future tuning your on your own, or have attempted it already?


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Lance
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 10:20 am 
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I haven't tuned my vehicle on my own yet.

Initially, I just wanted to understand the technical logic behind tuning. To better understand how my car operates.

Many people think the ECU is a black box and way beyond the technical skillset of the average enthusiast. I don't think it is.

For now I'm just interested in learning (the reason for this thread). But who knows, I might try to tune my own vehicle soon.


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Pirate
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 11:02 am 
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Location: All bout d place...i probably lost!!!
^^^ well if u need a test car for log comparisons, I have one lined up!
Always wanted to get it logged.


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Lance
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 12:48 pm 
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Doing and occasional log is important I think.

Even if you can do one they you should at least pull a learning view.


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Ted_v2
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 4:52 pm 
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i have a question, as you all know the older models subaru (sf5/gc8) doesn't allow open source tuning, can a later model ecu be swapped in? as in something that can be re tuned? or a management/piggyback would have to be used?


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 5:01 pm 
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i have a friend who rewired a gdb ecu into his gc8 to tune it than going with the powerfc option


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Lance
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 5:47 pm 
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What is the scope of the power FC? if it full management or quasi?

A used FC in the UK is relatively cheap (about £350). Its plug and play and If it can offer more than a piggyback then I'd go that way instead.

Far less headache.

If you're going with a GD swap, you might also want to verify if the GD harness and ECU can integrate with all the the GC sensors and engine hardware. It might be a case where you have to change some of that too. I can't say though.


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JJ16
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:09 pm 
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Firstly, which I think you know...but may be confusing for a reader who is unaware... a PowerFC is a standalone management....

I won't say far less headache at all....in the shortrun sure....but generally no...

As for the GD Swap, you can do a conversion to use a GD ECU on a GC8, it has been done, i've seen the entire process stage by stage. It is also better to do so, as it is as if you are more or less upgrading certain items in your car.

So Ted_v2 if you can find a powerFC and you want to use that, it would be simple enough...the difficult part would be finding it.. or finding a good one with a commander...

If you prefer to swap another harness in your car, that can also be done, only by ONE person as far as I am aware locally...which allows open source tuning after as well as many other features not found in the PowerFC and a few other managements.


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Lance
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:21 pm 
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If anyone is interested in logging and Learning View then I recommend this cable:

http://www.amazon.com/Diagnostics-OBDII ... VAG+subaru

I used it for many years to make sure my motor was in good health. It won't flash though.


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:28 pm 
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What software can I use to log or view a learning view


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Pirate
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:29 pm 
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^^^ bought a cable like that and can't seem to get it to connect. Tried various COM ports and configurations.
:cry:


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Lance
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:33 pm 
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Romraider for Logging:

http://www.romraider.com/

Learning view is actually the software's name. Very Handy. It basically pulls the "learned" or compensation values that the ECU makes to keep your vehicle safe or inline with the predefined map. It puts it in a very convenient table.

Learning view: http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic2772.html


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Lance
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:33 pm 
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Pirate wrote:
^^^ bought a cable like that and can't seem to get it to connect. Tried various COM ports and configurations.
:cry:


What OS are you working with? It used to give me hell on Win 7. Works perfect on XP though.


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Lance
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:39 pm 
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Pirate wrote:
^^^ bought a cable like that and can't seem to get it to connect. Tried various COM ports and configurations.
:cry:



I made this post some time ago on scoobytnt about a device I manipulated to act as a logger. I pasted the entire post below in case anyone wants to try it:


Thought I should post this up for anyone interested.

Background- My PC's battery crapped out which made it very difficult to do LV's and impossible to do any logs.

For sometime now I have been looking for a replacement. My initial plan was to get a used PC off ebay (one that ran xp) since xp ran best with the VAG logging cable.

A few weeks ago I came across the Benq S6 on an Ebay Closeout (70US Shipped!!!). The Device is a mini/handheld PC running a 800mhz atom processor. However, it comes from the factory with a linux based system installed (Not Compatible with LV or Romraider!)

This is where it got interesting:

In the earlier days, the Chinese/Taiwanese version of the device ran Windows XP so I knew there were drivers out there for the device. It stop shipping with XP due to licensing fees etc and only a few batches were shipped out.


I took the risk I bought the device- link here- http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-BenQ-S6-Int ... 484635e56e

After Weeks of searching I finally found the drivers and a compatible bios to run the install.

After a Bios reflash, a windows xp install and driver install, this is what I have:


Attachment:
IMG00019-20120726-0615.jpg
IMG00019-20120726-0615.jpg [ 76.07 KiB | Viewed 1245 times ]


A glove compartment device that I can use to Log my car. the device can literally fit in your pocket and runs pretty well on XP.

Catch - The Hard Drive is only 2GB. You will have to do a few things to get XP, .NET and Java to fit comfortably. Reducing allocation for System restore etc. Other than that, the system runs well.

Not sure how much more the ebay seller has but this is def. a good buy.

My skybox took 70TT to ship/clear it (they classified it as a PC).

so all in all - 520TT for a nice logging machine. I'm pretty sure it can flash as well, but I won't risk it If i were you. Plus the screen is pretty small to edit/tweak maps.

Anyone wanting the software/instructions can hit me up.


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16 cycles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:32 am 
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punchin NOS

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tune was in in 07/08 - a good few years ago...

Image

sorry if the resolution is poor....

vf30 + ej207 forged block +meth conservative tune...

was using a coolingmist kit (S-HSV valve courtesy W2J) to keep the ron and IATs respectable...

thoroughly enjoyed driving that machine...


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Lance
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:19 pm 
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Thanks for sharing this bro,

I have some questions, providing you can remember. Its been some time it seems.

At WOT what a/f were you hitting (primarily above 6K)? The reason I ask is that your target a/f ratio is a bit low (around 10.50). Were you hitting this?

Generally, a lot of tuners seem to mess with this table in order to get the output they want on the wideband. IMHO I don't think this is the proper way to do it. Your Target should always be your target. You shouldn't have to set your target a/f to 13 in order to hit 11 because you run meth (not referring to your map btw). These adjustments should probably be made in via maf scaling and not manipulation of target a/f.

I have a similar question regarding the target boost. Do you remember if you were able to hit 21psi at 3300rpm on WOT? That kind of spool seems highly unlikely (my old TDO4 probably couldn't do that). From my readings, your target boost should be reflective of the capability of your setup. Otherwise your ecu will go mad trying to hit a target that it mechanically cannot achieve.

This is not to discredit your tune BTW. These are just minor points I brought up so that we can drive the discussion forward. I'm pretty sure the car was safe and responsive.

Do you by chance have the Timing table?

Thanks again for sharing.


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16 cycles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:42 pm 
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punchin NOS

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Lance wrote:

At WOT what a/f were you hitting (primarily above 6K)? The reason I ask is that your target a/f ratio is a bit low (around 10.50). Were you hitting this?


think the 10.5 is more suited to a 50/50 wami mix when tuning....

Quote:
Per AEM’s tuning guide, “Using a 50/50 mix of water/methanol is recommended for the best combination of air charge cooling and detonation control. With conservative boost and timing, establish a base AFR that is one point higher than your final target AFR. For example, if your final target AFR with water/methanol injection is 11.0:1, set your base AFR to 12.0:1. Once the base AFR has been set, start injecting water/methanol and adjust the injection flow rate to achieve your final target AFR. For example, if before injection your base AFR is 12.0:1 and then during injection your AFR drops to 10.5:1, reduce the water/methanol flow rate until your final target AFR is reached.”


http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/en ... ction-101/

^i no way am a tuner - just what made sense to me....

Quote:
Generally, a lot of tuners seem to mess with this table in order to get the output they want on the wideband. IMHO I don't think this is the proper way to do it. Your Target should always be your target. You shouldn't have to set your target a/f to 13 in order to hit 11 because you run meth (not referring to your map btw). These adjustments should probably be made in via maf scaling and not manipulation of target a/f.


^sense - helps if you have a wideband to help - we used an innovative at the time -iirc

Quote:
I have a similar question regarding the target boost. Do you remember if you were able to hit 21psi at 3300rpm on WOT? That kind of spool seems highly unlikely (my old TDO4 probably couldn't do that). From my readings, your target boost should be reflective of the capability of your setup. Otherwise your ecu will go mad trying to hit a target that it mechanically cannot achieve.


Image

that was the final tune on the car - the log posted before was iteration 14 of 21.....so it may have been values in cells to iterate to reach to the final map above....which is to my driving style....peak power later down in the rpm range....useful torque curve...


that said, the graph shows benefits of tuning as you can see undulations in the 6/21 (blue) that was partly resolved by using a perrin ebcs and dyno time....

no worries at any criticisms - good or bad...keep it coming...all here to learn....


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Lance
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:46 pm 
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I believe that Perrin actually has a similar tuning strategy to the one you posted. To be honest that also makes a lot of sense.

I'll try to see if I can find some more information to support my idea of how these things should be tuned for.

Having looked at your graph I think that the tuner might have been a bit too optimistic regarding the target boost table. But I think it's something that occurs fairly often.

That graph actually looks very similar to my old tune. Similar power on similar mods.


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belalegosi
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:08 pm 
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JJ16 wrote:
As for the GD Swap, you can do a conversion to use a GD ECU on a GC8, it has been done, i've seen the entire process stage by stage. It is also better to do so, as it is as if you are more or less upgrading certain items in your car.


A full GD engine and dash harness along with the ECU would be the way to go in a GC8.
I'm tuning a friend's GC8 that did the swap (including dash) and its been pretty much pain free tuning wise. As much as I prefer standalones, a factory reflash is ALWAYS easier to learn on.



Lance wrote:
Generally, a lot of tuners seem to mess with this table in order to get the output they want on the wideband. IMHO I don't think this is the proper way to do it. Your Target should always be your target. You shouldn't have to set your target a/f to 13 in order to hit 11 because you run meth (not referring to your map btw). These adjustments should probably be made in via maf scaling and not manipulation of target a/f.


If you are paying someone to tune like that then you have a problem.
Also mid 10s isnt bad really. Not all setups are the same and some would prefer a slightly riched mixture. The old setup on my forester liked the mid 10s for AFRs. Albeit the tune was super conservative but still enough to break the input shaft on the auto :lol: :lol: :lol:

16 cycles wrote:
was using a coolingmist kit (S-HSV valve courtesy W2J) to keep the ron and IATs respectable...


IAT is independent of the cooling mist. I think you're referring to the cylinder temps :)



For budget tuning, get a Tactrix Cable and download ECU Flash. But be aware it has its drawbacks. You get what you pay for. I hate using romraider.
My preference is the Accessport. A bit pricier but so much more convenient.


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Lance
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:00 am 
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10.5 with the cooling benefits of meth injection might be a bit too conservative in many regards, providing you aren't running a shitload of timing. With my current tune, my Wrx seemed to like 11-11.1 relatively well.

Regarding the Cobb platform. I don't think they support JDM ECU definitions.


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belalegosi
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:18 pm 
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Lance wrote:
10.5 with the cooling benefits of meth injection might be a bit too conservative in many regards, providing you aren't running a shitload of timing. With my current tune, my Wrx seemed to like 11-11.1 relatively well.

Regarding the Cobb platform. I don't think they support JDM ECU definitions.


Yea, I don't run meth/water injection on my Forester. It's easy to speculate what would be best.

Also, you're right Cobb doesn't support JDM. I guess that's why I never had to tune any Acessports in TnT haha


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Lance
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:25 pm 
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belalegosi wrote:
Lance wrote:
10.5 with the cooling benefits of meth injection might be a bit too conservative in many regards, providing you aren't running a shitload of timing. With my current tune, my Wrx seemed to like 11-11.1 relatively well.

Regarding the Cobb platform. I don't think they support JDM ECU definitions.


Yea, I don't run meth/water injection on my Forester. It's easy to speculate what would be best.

Also, you're right Cobb doesn't support JDM. I guess that's why I never had to tune any Acessports in TnT haha


I think they could if they wanted to though. I remember years ago they were talks about the Cusco and Prova Accessport for the JDM. It was even launched. Didn't seem to pick up and it looks like Cusco and Prova probably dropped it.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/japan-trip-part-two-cusco/
http://www.prova.co.jp/products/electro ... 0qmqe.html


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Aaron 2NR
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:05 pm 
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I wish I could have used it as a live view tho lol...


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Lance
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:45 pm 
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Aaron 2NR wrote:
I wish I could have used it as a live view tho lol...


I have an idea for live data that I'm going to try out as soon as I get back home. I'm working with the guys at Audiophile Trading to work out the fabrication details.


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