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rcadiz
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Good day ALL,

Before i start allow me to state a few things for the record.
This post is NOT intended as:
- a Diss to TTASA
- my grab for any sort of power
- any politically influenced intentions
- anything negative for motorsport

This post IS intended as:
- entirely healthy for the future of local motorsport
- a discussion that could potentially raise many topics that need mass opinion
- a source of information for those who 'now reach'

TTASA elections we hear are carded for some time in mid-July and it occurred to me that there is a lot more to it than simply electing a new Executive. To be more precise any AGM and/or elections that determine the Executive of this Country's National Governing Body (NGB) for motorsport has to be taken very seriously.

Have a read on some of the glaring issues that face anyone on the new Executive (just from my opinion):

The truth is we are now in 2012, and where are we as a Motorsporting Power:
- No real Drags/Circuit since Wallerfield - Campden is a temporary fix but nothing close to a sustainable plan for the future. It is barely an outlet for local drag racing to say that there is racing, but we are no closer to attracting the likes of Sheldon, Big Daddy, Ryan Garcia, Kanick, among many other sub-6 to 7 second cars, etc.
- Karting is done in a Carpark and any true progress is severely hampered by way too many factors to list here.
- Rally is ongoing and has reached a regionally acceptable level, however any true progress to rival that of Barbados is very far from reality. Any hope of reaching 40+ competitors for Rally Trinidad is held back by many obstacles - too many to list.
- Dexterity, Time Attack, Motorcross - These although not considered mainstream motorsports provide great entry level to the street/race car owner who is testing the waters. These face the same 'car park' restriction as Karting.

The age old chant for DEMOCRACY - The TTRC and all of our partner organizations - CARS, TTKA, ARA, TTMF, TORMATT - have echoed the call for a DEMOCRATIC reform of the National Governing Body for Motorsport in Trinidad and Tobago. This we believe is the only way to truly move forward. It is a tried and proven formula for all organizations, and with an equal and democratic structure, all groups will be fairly represented no matter if you are the big Club today or the struggling Club of tomorrow. However with no ability to vote, even affiliation with TTASA does not give you a vote, all our opinions and suggestions are really just good for 'ole talk' (pardon the pun on this forum). The fact is we are all repeatedly told that joining TTASA as members is simply NOT allowed, which means that we have to sit and watch as elections will happen and we will simply be updated as to who the new Executive is.
1. How can we say we have a NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY for Motorsport, when it seems to be more of a PRIVATE GOVERNING BODY - many of the true stakeholders in Trinidad and Tobago are simply not permitted to vote - despite our best efforts. Again affiliation does NOT give you a vote.
2. Is any elected President a true representation of the mass collective opinion?

3. Where there are so many people who have alternative views on the way forward, and on some issues when the masses have a polar opposite view of the way forward, can we really call motorsports a democratic group?


The Old way of thinking needs to change - 40 years of Motorsport history is something we hear all too often, and while it is enlightening to listen to the stories forever told by the Motorsport elders, the fact is it has little bearing on the sport of today, and the whole new way that sport internationally has gone. We cannot manage sport with 1980's thinking, and while the motorsporting population back then could have functioned with all disciplines under 1 roof, today the reality is quite different. There is too much work for 1 organization to take responsibility for every major motorsport discipline. We have been told many a time that TTASA will not get involved in the operational aspect of your discipline, yet we see the opposite happening when the TTASA executive are in charge of promoting and running the Drag Racing in Campden. Interesting as it also begs the question, if the TTRC and TTKA were to affiliate would we have to step aside and let the TTASA Executive run our major events too? The problem is that all the questions that we have about the formation and scope of the Motorsport General Council will not be answered unless we sign and affiliate to TTASA - that is to say we have to sign and affiliate before we know what we are signing and affiliating to. This is easy for groups who have just started and have not yet put on major events, but it is more complex and takes a different approach for groups that have been doing major Championship Series for way longer than the present TTASA Executive has even been in effect.

The Ministry of Sport and FIA
I have been asked this more times than i would like to admit but for the greater good of the 'new comers'
- IF THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO COLLECTIVELY THINK DIFFERENT, WHY DOESN'T THE MSYA, OR FIA DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?
Excellent question so here is the short answer - The MSYA appointed the NSO/now NGB to TTASA many years ago and the MSYA policy has long been, if you are unhappy with the way they run it, vote a new Executive. FIA takes the same approach, get involved, and voice your opinions, and if the masses really want it a change, then it will happen. I assume everyone reading picks up on the major issue here - to get involved, you need to be a member - and well there is not much hope of that. TTASA are choosing their members carefully and mainly suggesting that you affiliate with a sporting Club rather than join as a voting member. So there is your answer. Reform is needed for any of this to take on any real change. I have met many of the region's FIA reps, and they all advise the same Democratic way forward, which is fine when they are in Trinidad, but when they get on the plane, nothing takes ever takes effect, because the real power to change lies with the NGB/ASN. DO NOT expect the MSYA or the FIA to come in and change anything. Worse yet, what would that say to all of us if that were required, are we that close to a bunch of school children that we need the Principal to come in and appoint a new Student Body President?

MSYA Call for Unity
The MSYA has long called for unity in Motorsport. TTASA says all are together and the President was on TV recently saying he was 'not sure what the TTRC problem with affiliation was' and 'thought that Anil Roberts was 'misinformed'. Most can see that there is no real unity at the top. Like it or not, the affiliates on the General Council seemingly do not have any serious weight, cannot vote, and do not at this time put on a Championship Motorsport Series of any form (car racing that is). All of the racing (Campden) takes place under the direct control of TTASA, and then on the outside of the Council. So unless there is some major reform from our NGB, we will all be limited in our growth.

The 'ONCE I GET A TRACK, I GOOD' mentality
This is simply an ignorant, and very selfish way of looking at it. Small mercies people. Trinidad and Tobago has much more potential for government and private sector investment and yet is so far behind our regional peers of Jamaica, Barbados, and Guyana. Motorsport needs to be considered much more highly than a bloody piece of asphalt. It is a major sporting industry which needs huge amounts of time, effort, and resources to develop. It is not about the 'I just want to race' and 'boy vote he yes, he get we Campden'.

Does Rallying NEED TTASA?
This is another question i get repeatedly. The answer is 2-fold.
NO - We don't need TTASA to have a Rally, close a road, import a car, and for the most part, the TTRC like many other Clubs operates completely independent of our ASN (due to the democracy issue). However we deal with the MSYA directly and continue to host one of the best Gravel Rally Series in the Caribbean without them.
YES - Without unity our future is limited - duty free concessions that our Caribbean neighbours benefit from, Rally cars need to be licensed - no car older than 6 years can be imported and registered (Evo IX barely cuts it) - i.e. no historic cars - escorts, starlets, etc. FIA Competition licenses for regional events, I could go on.
The answer should not be that we need TTASA, the answer should be that WE NEED UNITY, that is the first step.

These are just the tip of the iceberg of questions that remain unanswered. Please again consider seriously:

With the elections for the National Governing Body for Motorsport in Trinidad and Tobago looming:
1. Does anybody know any details on the upcoming TTASA AGM? (If this is in fact a big secret - should it be as it seriously affects all of us?)
2. Who is going up for President / other posts?
3. How many are allowed to vote?
4. Is any real Reform planned? Up to today the TTRC does not know of any such intention.
5. How many of the Motorsport General Council can actually vote?
6. Has the General Council been made part of the Constitution or is it one of those things that can be scrapped with the wave of a hand from the President? - What power do they really have on major issues?

Folks I humbly ask that you do not respond with silly responses of TTASA this and that. Hopefully we can engage some proper dialogue. Although this is a 'free speech' forum, i will ask Duane to continue monitor this for any form of slander, libel comments toward any person - these will be deleted at the discretion of the moderator. The elections are coming up soon, and we need to start acting like we actually give a sh^t about the sport that is bigger than all of us. I have quite a lot of experience with the last few years of discussions with other motorsporting groups, MSYA, FIA, and even TTASA, and i will do my best to answer any questions in as completely unbiased manner as possible, so feel free.


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V2NR 3.0
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Horse this is really a well put together statement.

Good Read


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Mini
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:47 pm 
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Good read Robbie. You covered every point quite well.

I'd like to ask though. Since TTASA is the NGB, shouldn't they publish the notice of elections well before it's held?

Also shouldn't the constitution with regards to how many can vote, etc be available to the public? It must be published somewhere.


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THE_FUGITIVES
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Can we protest ? where when? >probably the next meet? or is that not a good thing?


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Mini,

To answer your questions to the best of my knowledge.

Everything to do with TTASA organization rules and regulations is supposed to be governed 100% by their constitution. This holds for any Club and/or public entity, especially those registered with the MSYA. Despite many requests however we have only ever been sent the part of their constitution that deals specifically with 'affiliate clubs'.

As far as a published voting list. This might be pushing it, besides some people may not like their names published publicly anyway. However being a National Organization, and given that there's so much at stake with this particular election, if it were me i would make it a point to be as transparent as possible in order to win back the confidence of the motorsport public who have had much to call into question - as many of the various forum discussions would show you.

People need to have faith, trust, and confidence going forward. This is difficult when for the most part, TTASA has played their cards close to their chest when it comes to major decisions that affect the masses.


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:10 pm 
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THE_FUGITIVES wrote:
Can we protest ? where when? >probably the next meet? or is that not a good thing?


A protest is difficult/ ill advised for a few reasons:
1. Only members and invited guests can attend a Club meeting so non-members certainly won't be allowed in the meeting.
2. Protesting won't do much good because you can say all you want, its their decision to listen to you or not.
3. Things may get heated and the last thing we want is any sort of confrontation.

The reason i have posted this is to show people that there is a lot at stake with this particular AGM. As far as i can tell, unless you get the voting members of TTASA to make some informed decisions on a democratic future, motorsport is going to continue to hang in the balance.

The MSYA and FIA are not about to remove anyone, so get that thought out of your head. The motorsport public has to handle this one. if you agree with the present TTASA executive then cool, if you think there is need for a change then vote the other way, but at least make an informed decision. One would hope that all of the motorsporting public, i.e. the true stakeholders would have a say in how we are governed, but until there is major reform then we have to depend on the TTASA members to make the change for us.


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janfar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:08 am 
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As I had discussed with a few guys, isn't 'virtually' impossible to have the right to vote within the TTASA? AFAIK you must be a member of TTASA, and in order to be a member you must be recommended by a current member which basically in my mind is like voter padding.

That said, is it not already a lost cause as the current members would have already been carefully selected in order to have the desired results? Not a true democracy in my mind.

I am open to corrections.


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:46 am 
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'Janfar' essentially this is why we have been pushing for a major re-think of how our NGB/ASN is structured. I have tried to join myself as i am sure other people who feel the same way. We were all given the same story - 'We are not encouraging membership at this time, we encourage you to join any one of our affiliates' this from almost all the Executive.

Obviously no Club wants to be taken over, but when most applications are turned down in this manner then it begs a lot of questions of why the fear in new membership. TTASA Exec has forever maintained that they want everyone to work together, however for this to truly happen, there needs to be an equal share of the decision making among all the disciplines. A little thing called democracy.

All of the competitive motorsport organizations have been told to become affiliates, with no voting rights, except at Council level which is below the TTASA Exec. And we essentially have to accept who the TTASA membership votes for. And the TTASA voting membership is a minority of the active motorsport competitive community. So when you look at it the TTASA membership have more rights than the rest of us. Is this acceptable?


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janfar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:52 am 
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Definitely unacceptable on all accounts. So the issue now is actually getting a democratic election. The way it should work is:

Affiliate clubs are recognized (one per dicipline) and their leaders selected>
All affiliate clubs put up their nomination for who should be on the NGB (Board of representatives)

The Board then selects the TTASA executive.

My question has been for the last few years: how do we get this democratically elected executive body. If what TTASA is doing is deemed wrong, can it not be brought to the attention of the FIA/ MSYA? Of course I believe you guys have done this already but to no avail.

Do drastic measures now need to be put in place??? Picketing TTASA drags? Making the greater public, not just the enthusiasts, aware of the situation via the media.

What do the greater heads, such as yourself, recommend we do as a group, as a country?

Remember Egypt!!!


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:00 am 
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'Janfar'

Discussions about a democratic Federation is not anything new. Firstly and foremost this is how even the FIA is run - One country - one vote. USA for example carries the same weight as Barbados, doesn't matter how big or how small.

I was part of a group that included all of the competitive groups which were not part of TTASA. We got together and met week in and week out since as far back as early 2008. We involved the then TTASA management, trustees, honorary members, long standing members, basically everyone we could consult with.

July 2010 - A proposal was drafted to adopt the a Federation style setup for top level governance of Motorsport. 4 signatures (2 from the collective Competitive Organizations, and 2 from TTASA - Pres, and VP) were on the document. We followed the Constitution of the Barbados Motor Federation - BMF closely, and it was for the most part an excellent start to true democracy. There were some admitted flaws in the implementation that we realized after but it was certainly a step in the right direction.

September 2010 - TTASA AGM/Elections happened and the Executive changed. Our first meeting with all parties at the MSYA level the Federation document was brought up. The existing TTASA Executive said that it was completely unconstitutional and did not have the support of the TTASA membership. At the time we could have challenged it legally, as it was a legally binding signature, however we thought it best to begin mediation talks to try to come up with another working solution with the new management. 2 YEARS later and the talks have completely broken down.

Again the MSYA and FIA are there to advise and facilitate. Unless there is a reason for forced intervention, illegal behaviour for example, and even in that case only the individuals will be punished, not the entire organization, there is not much that can be done from these bodies.

Much of our drag racing public who races under TTASA have been subject to many years of no track. There is a track to race on now but many of these competitors are not voting members, and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter how they feel. I am not going to try to tell someone to not go and race because i know the answer. I am not about to go and lead a movement to picket TTASA drags or try to get the racers to boycott it either. My personal opinion is the same racers who complain bitterly on the forums after every event and then forget their grouse when the next event comes around, have to realize the real issues and decide for themselves what they want.


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janfar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:33 am 
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From what I have read on the FIA website about country organizations and clubs, non-democratic selection of members is considered illegal and as such should warrant some form of intervention. Is it now too late to legally pursue the Federation document?

I honestly dont expect much to come from the MSYA because [slander removed]. But is there not a way to petition the FIA to have them intervene on the situation because as far as I can see the non-affiliates have had far more successful events and that in itself is a reason for intervention.

People need to be made aware that what they are accepting is not only mediocre, but substandard for a country with natural resources and raw untapped talent. What people need to realise is that we were able to produce Sheldon wihout a proper facility. Imagine what would happen if we had the full backing of the government and the FIA affiliate... we might be able to produce the next Senna or Schumacher. People need to be aware that a sacrifice for a greater good is necessary sometimes... but alas we are a country of 'whaever yes'.

Beyond that, I support any endeavour toward the betterment of motorsport in T&T... even if it means getting a little dirty for the greater good.


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SR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:32 pm 
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isnt ttasa's internal elections always kept hush hush
as from thier pt off view and thier own articles of association it does not concern the general public or non members or members who do not have a say within the organisation


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Computerman
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Mini wrote:
I'd like to ask though. Since TTASA is the NGB, shouldn't they publish the notice of elections well before it's held?

Also shouldn't the constitution with regards to how many can vote, etc be available to the public? It must be published somewhere.
No. TTASA is not a public organisation. Only the members need be informed of such.

rcadiz wrote:
Everything to do with TTASA organization rules and regulations is supposed to be governed 100% by their constitution.
As far as I am aware that is precisely how they operate. :!:

rcadiz wrote:
This holds for any Club and/or public entity, especially those registered with the MSYA. Despite many requests however we have only ever been sent the part of their constitution that deals specifically with 'affiliate clubs'.
Did you try to request this information from an 'affiliate club'? Surely they should know! :?

rcadiz wrote:
As far as a published voting list. This might be pushing it, besides some people may not like their names published publicly anyway. However being a National Organization, and given that there's so much at stake with this particular election, if it were me i would make it a point to be as transparent as possible in order to win back the confidence of the motorsport public who have had much to call into question - as many of the various forum discussions would show you.
TTASA is not a 'National Organisation'. It is a 'National Governing Body'! "If it were me" is a pointless argument when referring to the modus operandi of TTASA.

rcadiz wrote:
People need to have faith, trust, and confidence going forward. This is difficult when for the most part, TTASA has played their cards close to their chest when it comes to major decisions that affect the masses.
I always thought they kept their cards next to a different part of their anatomy, but I defer to your wisdom on such matters.

rcadiz wrote:
Folks I humbly ask that you do not respond with silly responses of TTASA this and that.
:roll: My bad.



SR wrote:
isnt ttasa's internal elections always kept hush hush
as from thier pt off view and thier own articles of association it does not concern the general public or non members or members who do not have a say within the organisation
Quite right. Not all members have voting rights.


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:22 pm 
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At the end of it the issue of TTASA having elections within their own organization is one thing. We cannot stand outside the fence and complain about what happens in the party. They are well within their right to conduct elections at an AGM and publish the elected officers afterward without anyone on the outside objecting.

THE PROBLEM lies where you have a lot of very active people within motorsport who have been told that they cannot join TTASA for a variety of reasons, and that 'they are not encouraging membership'. How can this be allowed? Call it what you will, but an NGB that is 'not encouraging membership' IS a major problem. Membership made up of individuals who are successfully running Rally, Karting, and a range of other motorsports should be a good thing? You telling me that we (TTRC) run the most successful Gravel Rally Championship Series in the Caribbean Region, but we are not good enough to have a say in how motorsport is governed in Trinidad and Tobago. The same goes for Karting, Dex, Drag and Wine, Motorcross, etc etc etc.........

What is wrong with this picture?


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link
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:49 pm 
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Mr. Cadiz & others

I try to encourage people to think about the subjects I post about, so I will not 'put food in the plate, give you a knife & fork...and then feed you as well here either.
That being said...I will make just two points & leave you all to ponder your thoughts :

1/ Mr. cadiz was specifically advised by BOTH the NACAM President & Vice president that 'the only way to enjoy the benefits of the FIA was to 'join' TTASA (as the T&T FIA ASN).If you don't become affiliated you get nothing...'
.
2/ Mr. David Abdullah is now OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT 'bleating' when he should have been 'inside' bleating'. AT LEAST THEN, HE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN HIS VOICE HEARD & be able to effect change !!
.
as the advertisment goes....'don't be on the outside bleating....get affiliated'
.
Best regards


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Austin_Power
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:05 pm 
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with that statement from link , GOOD BYE T&T MOTORSPORT!!!!


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:38 pm 
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link wrote:
Mr. Cadiz & others

I try to encourage people to think about the subjects I post about, so I will not 'put food in the plate, give you a knife & fork...and then feed you as well here either.
That being said...I will make just two points & leave you all to ponder your thoughts :

1/ Mr. cadiz was specifically advised by BOTH the NACAM President & Vice president that 'the only way to enjoy the benefits of the FIA was to 'join' TTASA (as the T&T FIA ASN).If you don't become affiliated you get nothing...'
.
2/ Mr. David Abdullah is now OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT 'bleating' when he should have been 'inside' bleating'. AT LEAST THEN, HE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN HIS VOICE HEARD & be able to effect change !!
.
as the advertisment goes....'don't be on the outside bleating....get affiliated'
.
Best regards


Link i thank you for your contribution, and in the absence of actually answering what i had asked in pure hope in the first post, i will answer your comments:
1. Let me make this explicitly clear, I was advised to join TTASA by NACAM, FIA, and the MSYA, however when myself, the TTRC President and many others who have been in the same conversation explained that we were not allowed to join TTASA in any voting capacity, each of those parties (FIA/NACAM/MSYA) expressed pure wonderment at why not. Obviously you can't change from the outside, but if you are inside and have to sit with your finger on your lips on a little chair in the corner, how do you expect us to make a change.
2. Actually I recall Mr. Abdullah having a vote in the Senate, and i don't think you nor i are at liberty to discuss this seeing as though we have no idea what really happened.

So everyone is absolutely clear on this issue. We have been advised many times and even encouraged in 1 on 1 meetings with NACAM officials to join TTASA, however joining with no voting rights will accomplish little if anything, and i can tell you that NACAM and FIA do NOT agree with this structure. Link as your are aware Mr. Ali met with NACAM Vice President Mr. Krausz and the TTRC President without you and all of this was discussed. Mr. Krausz again advised to join TTASA but then listened and subsequently advised Mr. Ali to separate Competition from Recreation which was a problem with TTASA's Motorsport General Council, as well as to move toward the Federation status much like how FIA is structured. Not sure if Mr. Ali explained this to you.

When the Motorsport Council was being setup, I personally arranged getting all the Competitive groups to come to a meeting, however Mr. Ali wanted us to sign and affiliate without giving us any details on what we would be signing to other than a 1-page snippet of the affiliation section of the TTASA Constitution. Would any of you simply sign to be an affiliate without a proper sit down and full dialogue. We politely declined affiliation on the grounds that democracy was literally non-existent.

So folks while LINK is partially correct he has left out some key details of the conversation.

Link the rumor is that you are running for President as well, is this true?


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janfar
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:26 am 
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So Link... How can I become a member of TTASA, one who has enough rights to make an input into who should lead the future of Motorsports in Trinidad and Tobago, because I strongly believe that these key positions are a matter of public selection and not just to be kept in an elite selection. If it continues like this we would have to change the position from president to Emir or Emperor or something.


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SR
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:55 am 
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you cant
thats how ttasa polices are setup unless you are going along with what the "old farts" want you have no say or support and you just have to "go with the flow" till they think you have become just like them and then maybe you can voice your opinion form the chair in the corner


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:34 am 
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Quote:
^its true...however there are many members who have issues VOTING for a XXXX and a XXXX and a XXX person such as XXXX....

....many a time XXXX was given $ to deposit into TTASA's account, and days upon weeks passed and the $ would still not have been deposited. He would then use some of this $ for his personal use with the intent of paying it back. (reason for all the late deposits) .....he was warned, and CONTINUED to do this....

along with the personal sale of 'bands' to enter the drag events on numerous occasions...

...XXXX keeps informing the public of TTASA's current "bad name" yet he is the one contributing MOST towards it....technically the man is very smart....however.... there's not ONE SOUL on ttasa's members list that can stand his arrogant attitude.... even an individual expressed his feelings when XXXX was on the receiving end of a SLAP at one of the TTASAs events....

...oh well... XXXX...good luck buddie...but if u make president.... :lol: imma attend EVERY TTASA event just to watch u get slapped...AGAIN! :rofl:


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Folks as i had asked before please keep the slander and accusations out of this discussion. By all means start another 'ole talk' post. As far as we know Link was only accused of Financial Impropriety by some of the TTASA membership. He was not found guilty by any internal or external authority, so let's do the right thing and assume his innocence until tangible evidence suggests otherwise. As far as his physical activity at TTASA drags, i am sure its embarrassing enough already, so leave it for the rum shop talk.

So back to the elections. I have been reliably informed that 2 candidates have submitted their nomination for President:
- Mr. Ali - current President
- Mr. Sampath - current V.President

In addition, Mr. Sampath has filed or attempted to file a Motion of No Confidence against Mr. Ali. Strange - so you telling me that Link has sat in the VP chair for 2 years, and has made no major attempt to do something different to Ali or make a stand against what was being done, yet now a NC Motion is filed. And if upheld it means that Link would be the only candidate for the Presidency.

Again we see that there seems to be more emphasis placed on strategizing an election on technicalities, rather than actually making an attempt to win on merit. The NC Motion was apparently thrown out on the basis that it lacked any real substance. So obviously Link and Ali are not seeing eye to eye, and whoever wins, the other is going to be thrown out. Sadly no talk of fixing the major problems of motorsport has come up, and 'how to win' the election seems to be the order of the day.

Here we go folks, Ali vs Link.


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copper_shot
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:02 am 
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rcadiz wrote:

Here we go folks, Ali vs Link.



choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil


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drinker41
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:02 pm 
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I have a question, I know it was stated above that regular people are not allowed to join ttasa..... Was there any reason as to why people are not allowed to join?
Or why they are not given any voting rights?
How are nominations made can a person with no voting rights be nominated? .....

Sorry thats more than one question but i have been around drag racing since i was a little boy and from since that time ive heard people quarrel about ttasa and "owe ttasa doing sheit again"


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SR
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:30 pm 
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to be more correct its

Ali & Ali vs Link

one Ali has files on TTASA for years on how some TTASA members have not been forthcoming with finances within TTASA some are still in TTASA others have moved on


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copper_shot
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:50 pm 
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also TTASA has plans/discussions about bringing back old members from the past that were "dismissed/banned" for misconduct (stealing etc).




another step backward...


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:24 pm 
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In my last 4 years of meetings, research, and discussion with trying to conceptualize the best way forward, this is what i have been told concerning the structure of TTASA and by contrast what the rest of us support. Hopefully i am clear.

How the Competitive Groups see it (TTRC, TTKA, CARS, ASA, TTMF, TORMATT)
Step 1 - Identify the disciplines that exist in TnT - Drags, Circuit, Rally, Karting, Dex/Time Attack, Moto-cross, and most recently Drifting
Step 2 - Identify the key persons/organizations involved who have the best track record of events/overall performance
Step 3 - Select the best organizations per discipline, and Get 2 members from each organization to form a Motorsport Federation which will be the top level of governance. The top level of motorsport only has member organizations NOT individuals. The individual members vote the executives in and then the executives vote for the representative at Federation level. This way the most democratic representation per discipline is chosen.
Step 4 - Have a representative on the Federation for the Recreational Bodies (Car Shows, Promotional organizations, Recreational competitions, etc) as this is a very large aspect of motorsport and should maintain strong ties with Competition, but not form a voting part of a Sporting Governing Body.
Step 5 - Set up an Appeal Court within the Federation to deal with all 'squabbles' in order to avoid always resorting to the legal way.

You get the picture and it is clear to see that democracy is very present with the Federation setup. TTASA will be the name of the Federation, and the individual members of TTASA will assimilate into any of the competitive disciplines that they so desire - more than 1 if they wish. The TTASA Federation will then elect the best suited President or ASN Representative who will be the one to represent our country at FIA/NACAM level.

TTASA VIEW
Every 2 years the individual membership of TTASA votes for the typical Executive Struture - Pres, VP, Sec, Treasurer, etc. The President automatically assumes the role of the ASN Representative internationally. Then there is the Board of Trustees who don't have the operational control but are advisers in larger matters, and usually are made up of past Executive members.

TTASA Executive - Board of Trustees
then......
Individual Members
then......
Motorsport General Council

The Motorsport General Council is made up of a number of Affiliates who have NO voting rights unless they are also individual members of TTASA. At the moment we know them to be TTUNDRA, Horizon Motorsport, TTRA, TTNSA, V8 Car Club, i think also Mini Club, and a few Biker Clubs.
Intentions of the MGC
- To meet once a month and be the driving force of Motorsport on the ground level while TTASA remains the FIA/NACAM adviser and facilitator of Motorsport at top level


PROBLEMS WITH THE MGC Structure:
- TTASA Executive is ultimately in charge of you as none of the 'affiliates' have any voting rights
- No true control as TTASA has veto power on all decisions
- One of the major problems is that there is an obvious abundance of recreational organizations, and those who claim to be competitive were born our of driver associations and have never actually put on an event far less hosted a championship series.
- Any Club can join once a relatively easy criteria is fulfilled - minimum membership, a constitution etc
- Even though they have no true power, the voting is completely skewed based on who the members are. For example, we were told that there are already 2 Rally Clubs, so that would mean TTRC would be number 3. If there are 3 Rally Clubs, 1 Karting Club, 4 Drag Racing Clubs, then there will obviously be an unfair weight toward the Discipline with the most representation
- With 2 reps per Club on the MGC, the meetings get very large in number, have you ever tried to have a productive meeting with 25 people in it for example, hmmm......thought so.

TTASA has the sporting authority from FIA, and the NGB status from MSYA. So they have the power to do everything. Old members who now Rally were told that because their membership lapsed that they were removed from the TTASA membership, without any written notice, and were refused renewal. HOWEVER, it is quite obvious that TTASA will re-instate old members at their discretion.

At the end of the day the simple truth is that TTASA does not have the majority support of the true motorsport stakeholders, however their position is protected by a closely monitored membership that essentially enables them to keep the control shared amongst a few selected individuals.


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Computerman
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:46 pm 
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rcadiz wrote:
Then there is the Board of Trustees who don't have the operational control but are advisers in larger matters, and usually are made up of past Executive members.
Appointment to the Board of Trustees is a lifetime appointment. Although the Board of Trustees do not manage the day to day operations they have the power to remove the Executive and appoint an interim Executive. This is to protect the TTASA structure and maintain the status quo.

rcadiz wrote:
At the end of the day the simple truth is that TTASA does not have the majority support of the true motorsport stakeholders, however their position is protected by a closely monitored membership that essentially enables them to keep the control shared amongst a few selected individuals.
TTASA, as an organisation, was never structured to be an all encompasing representative body.

Although MSYA might say publicly that they want unity, they are quite satisfied with the way things are (status quo), as they have one less sporting body to worry about / allocate funds to.

As far as FIA are concerned, they are not!

This is the true reality which we face, but some prefer 'The Matrix!'


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THE_FUGITIVES
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:18 pm 
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rcadiz wrote:
In my last 4 years of meetings, research, and discussion with trying to conceptualize the best way forward, this is what i have been told concerning the structure of TTASA and by contrast what the rest of us support. Hopefully i am clear.

[b]How the Competitive Groups see it (TTRC, TTKA, CARS, ASA, TTMF, TORMATT)

Step 1 - Identify the disciplines that exist in TnT - Drags, Circuit, Rally, Karting, Dex/Time Attack, Moto-cross, and most recently Drifting
Step 2 - Identify the key persons/organizations involved who have the best track record of events/overall performance
Step 3 - Select the best organizations per discipline, and Get 2 members from each organization to form a Motorsport Federation which will be the top level of governance. The top level of motorsport only has member organizations NOT individuals. The individual members vote the executives in and then the executives vote for the representative at Federation level. This way the most democratic representation per discipline is chosen.
Step 4 - Have a representative on the Federation for the Recreational Bodies (Car Shows, Promotional organizations, Recreational competitions, etc) as this is a very large aspect of motorsport and should maintain strong ties with Competition, but not form a voting part of a Sporting Governing Body.
Step 5 - Set up an Appeal Court within the Federation to deal with all 'squabbles' in order to avoid always resorting to the legal way.

You get the picture and it is clear to see that democracy is very present with the Federation setup. TTASA will be the name of the Federation, and the individual members of TTASA will assimilate into any of the competitive disciplines that they so desire - more than 1 if they wish. The TTASA Federation will then elect the best suited President or ASN Representative who will be the one to represent our country at FIA/NACAM level.
[/b]

TTASA VIEW
Every 2 years the individual membership of TTASA votes for the typical Executive Struture - Pres, VP, Sec, Treasurer, etc. The President automatically assumes the role of the ASN Representative internationally. Then there is the Board of Trustees who don't have the operational control but are advisers in larger matters, and usually are made up of past Executive members.

TTASA Executive - Board of Trustees
then......
Individual Members
then......
Motorsport General Council

The Motorsport General Council is made up of a number of Affiliates who have NO voting rights unless they are also individual members of TTASA. At the moment we know them to be TTUNDRA, Horizon Motorsport, TTRA, TTNSA, V8 Car Club, i think also Mini Club, and a few Biker Clubs.
Intentions of the MGC
- To meet once a month and be the driving force of Motorsport on the ground level while TTASA remains the FIA/NACAM adviser and facilitator of Motorsport at top level


PROBLEMS WITH THE MGC Structure:
- TTASA Executive is ultimately in charge of you as none of the 'affiliates' have any voting rights
- No true control as TTASA has veto power on all decisions
- One of the major problems is that there is an obvious abundance of recreational organizations, and those who claim to be competitive were born our of driver associations and have never actually put on an event far less hosted a championship series.
- Any Club can join once a relatively easy criteria is fulfilled - minimum membership, a constitution etc
- Even though they have no true power, the voting is completely skewed based on who the members are. For example, we were told that there are already 2 Rally Clubs, so that would mean TTRC would be number 3. If there are 3 Rally Clubs, 1 Karting Club, 4 Drag Racing Clubs, then there will obviously be an unfair weight toward the Discipline with the most representation
- With 2 reps per Club on the MGC, the meetings get very large in number, have you ever tried to have a productive meeting with 25 people in it for example, hmmm......thought so.

TTASA has the sporting authority from FIA, and the NGB status from MSYA. So they have the power to do everything. Old members who now Rally were told that because their membership lapsed that they were removed from the TTASA membership, without any written notice, and were refused renewal. HOWEVER, it is quite obvious that TTASA will re-instate old members at their discretion.

At the end of the day the simple truth is that TTASA does not have the majority support of the true motorsport stakeholders, however their position is protected by a closely monitored membership that essentially enables them to keep the control shared amongst a few selected individuals.


RCADIZ is Godlike !!!! Lots of Good things rcadiz , why cant it be like thats , that sounds soo nice , thats what ''TTASA'' really supposed to be man wayyy , so TRUE.


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rcadiz
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:30 pm 
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Please understand that the structure that we have proposed a few years running is nothing new. We took the example of the very successful Barbados Motor Federation (BMF gladly provided us with their constitution) - for those of you who don't know:
BMF - Up to the year 2000, the Barbados Rally Club (BRC) had the ASN and in similar fashion to TnT now, there were many other groups begging for change. The change was done and in the morning Barbados had a Federation. The BRC did the unselfish act of sharing the ASN authority and moving to a democratic structure. Should i also mention that Barbados is
- home to one of the largest Rallies in the WORLD,
- soon to be home to an FIA certified Circuit Track part paid for by FIA
- have recently started drags and drifting which form equal part of the BMF even though Rally is by far the largest sport by contrast

The BMF structure was modeled after many other FIA ASN organizations, ACCUS - USA, CAMS - Australia, MSA - UK.

But the powers that be locally are trying to maintain a structure that does NOT exist or and work anywhere else in the world. This is what we are trying desperately to change.


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THE_FUGITIVES
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Why Cant They Realize that its over , especially that statement that if you dont Jump on their ship , you will lose out , Sooner Or Later if they do make the wrong choice and these points are advertised to the ones that dont know , the support and participation to their events will drop drastically if not completely.


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Computerman
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:37 pm 
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THE_FUGITIVES wrote:
Why Cant They Realize that its over , especially that statement that if you dont Jump on their ship , you will lose out , Sooner Or Later if they do make the wrong choice and these points are advertised to the ones that dont know , the support and participation to their events will drop drastically if not completely.
It's not over, far from it! "The wrong choice" was made many times in the past and ppl were aware of it. The 'support' they have will not drop anytime soon. There are still many, many ppl with the attitude 'me eh care, once I have a place to race.'


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