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Duane 3NE 2NR
 Post subject: The Religion Discussion
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:51 am 
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Red Fraction wrote:
man + logic / God = fail
Man + faith * God = pass

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Jussaying

so you are saying do not use logic?


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AdamB
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:33 am 
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MG Man wrote:
dnoah wrote:
AdamB wrote:
An analogy can be examined - how was the first man, Adam (not AdamB) created? GOD created and moulded him with HIS (GOD's) HANDS. How then did he, Adam, come to life? Was not a spirit (the soul) breathed (or however it was put) into him? Did this spirit emanate FROM GOD? If YES, then can we say that Adam is also the SON of GOD. If not, then the spirit came FROM GOD, belonging to HIM, but not a part of HIM. So, therefore Adam is also NOT GOD, just like Jesus!! Is MY logic making sense here?


watch nah,i never think of it this way and your logic making sense
ah wish ah could of add to it but u said it all and there is no one that can refute this



buh ent adamb say god have no form?
whey he get hads from to mold he lil mudman?




The Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’ has reviewed the translation of the Fatwa request as well as the reply published in the monthly Madinah Magazine issued from Dacca in Bengalese, fifth issue, 35th year, August 1999, corresponding to Rabi` II, 1420. The question submitted by a member of the Bengalese community in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia states: We used to believe that Allah exists everywhere and that He is Imageless. However, here in Saudi Arabia in a cooperation bureau a Bengalese translator delivered a lecture in which he stated that Allah (may He be Exalted) does not exist everywhere and that He is described as having a Hand, an Eye, and other Attributes. He further claimed that anyone who does not believe as such is a disbeliever. My question is: What is your opinion in this regard? Please explain it in the light of the Qur’an and Sunnah.

The reply(in Madinah Magazine) from Decca was as follows: Anyone who believes in such claims is either intensely ignorant, mad, or even a member of a deviant sect. Actually, Allah (may He be Exalted) is Imageless and exists everywhere and in everything and His Omnipotence encompasses all things. Moreover, Allah (may He be Exalted) has been described as such in many Ayahs as well as in many Hadith. Therefore, you should pay no attention to such nonsense so that you may not corrupt your Iman. This was the end of the reply.

Reply by Permanent Committee of Scholars:-
This reply is groundless and opposes the Qur’an, Sunnah, Ijma’, and sound ‘Aqidah as it indicates belief in Hulul (a Sufi term meaning indwelling) which means that Allah dwells everywhere even in dirty places (Exalted be He far above any such thing). The reply also involves denying some of Allah’s Attributes wherewith He has described Himself and His Messenger (peace be upon him) has described Him, i.e. being High above His Creatures, rising over His ‘Arsh (Throne), being Distinct from His Creation, and being Incomparable in any respect to His Creatures. It also involves denying the fact that Allah is described as having a Hand, a Foot, a Leg, a Face, two Hands, two Eyes, and other Attributes related to His Self and Actions as proved by the Qur’an and Sunnah.
Allah (may He be Exalted) says: (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2: 255) And He is the Most High, the Most Great. He (may He be Exalted) also says:(Surah Al-Mulk, 67: 16-17) Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allýh), will not cause the earth to sink with you, and then it should quake? Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allýh), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Do not you trust me though I am the trustworthy person of the One in the Heavens?” Moreover, Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah TaýHa, 20: 5) The Most Gracious (Allýh) rose over (Istawý) the (Mighty) Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). The same fact is stressed in seven places in the Qur’an.

Furthermore, He (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Rahman, 55: 27) And the Face of your Lord full of Majesty and Honour will remain forever. He (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Qasas, 28: 88) Everything will perish except His Face.

Addressing Iblis (Satan), Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Sad, 38: 75) What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. He (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Ma’idah, 5: 64) Nay, both His Hands are widely outstretched.

In the same regard, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The people will be thrown into the Fire and it will keep on saying, ýIs there any more?ý until the Lord of the worlds puts His Foot over it.” According to another narration of the Hadith, he (peace be upon him) said: …His Foot over it, whereupon its different sides will come close to each other, and it will say: Enough! Enough!”

To the same effect, Allah (may He be Exalted) says to Musa (Moses – peace be upon him):(Surah TaýHa, 20: 39) In order that you may be brought up under My Eye. Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Qamar, 54: 14) Floating under Our Eyes. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Your Lord is not one-eyed.”

In the same context, Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Qalam, 68: 42) (Remember) the Day when the Shin shall be laid bare (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) and they shall be called to prostrate themselves (to Allýh), but they (hypocrites, and those who pray to show off or to gain good reputation) shall not be able to do so. The Prophet (peace be upon him) interpreted the Ayah to mean that Allah (may He be Exalted) will uncover His Shin on the Day of Resurrection whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him out of reverence and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but they will not be able to do so.

In the same context, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I saw my Lord (may He be Glorified and Exalted) in the best ýýýý Soorah (form).”[1] He also said: “Allah created Adam in the ýýýý Soorah(Image) of The Most Beneficent.”[2] This is in addition to many Nusus (Islamic texts from the Qurýan or the Sunnah) including Allah’s Attributes.

Ahl-ul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah (those adhering to the Sunnah and the Muslim main body) believe in these Attributes and confirm their indications without Tashbih (comparison) or Tamthil (likening Allah’s Attributes to those of His Creation). Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Shura, 42: 11) There is nothing like Him; and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.

The Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’ in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia after stating such facts, deems it obligatory for the editor-in-chief of the monthly Madinah Magazine issued from Dacca, Bangladesh, Shaykh Muhiy Al-Din Khan, to publish this Fatwa and demand the person who replied to the Fatwa request to retract his allegations and declare his retraction in the same magazine. In fact, it is virtuous to admit the truth, which is the goal of the believers. Admitting the truth guides the people to the truth and distracts them from falsehood. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If anyone calls others to follow right guidance, his reward will be equivalent to those who follow him (in righteousness) until the Day of Resurrection without their reward being diminished in any respect, and if anyone invites others to follow error, the sin will be equivalent to that of the people who follow him (in sinfulness) until the Day of Resurrection without their sins being diminished in any respect.”

May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!

Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’ consisting of
Shaykh Abdul Azeez aal-shaykh
Shaykh Abdullah al-Ghudayyan
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan
Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd

Footnotes:-
[1]Reported in Musnad Ahmed, Sunan at-Tirmidhi & others.
[2]Reported in Asma wa Sifaat of al-Bayhaqee, Al-Kabeer of at-Tabarani, Al-Sifaat of Daraqtuni, At-Tawheed of Ibn Khuzaymah & others

Shaykh Yahya al-Hajuri hafidhahullah mentioned in his refutation of Dr. Zakir Naik pg 21 that Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (rahmatullah alaihi) said: “Whoever denies the ýýýý (Soorah i.e. Image for Allah) then he is Jahmee (the denier of Allah’s attributes) and the reason is based on the ahadeeth quoted above

Source : http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessag ... Topic=9638


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AdamB
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:36 am 
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Q 4: “Allaah created Adam in His own image”. Does this mean that all the characteristics of Adam are also Divine?

A: It is authentically reported from the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him)in the Two Sahih (authentic) Books of Hadith (i.e. Al-Bukhari and Muslim)that he (peace be upon him) said: “Allah created Adam in His own image.” In a narration by Ahmad and some scholars of Hadith, the same Hadith reads: “in the image of Al-Rahman (the Most Merciful)“. In the first Hadith, the pronoun refers to Allah.

Some scholars like Ahmad (may Allah be merciful with him), Ishaq ibn Rahawayh and the Imams of the Salaf (righteous predecessors) said: “We have to accept the Hadith in a way befitting Allah without Tashbih (comparison), Tamthil (likening Allah’s Attributes to those of His Creation) or Ta`til (denial of Allah’s Attributes). It does not necessarily mean that His Image (may He be Glorified) is like the image of human beings. Similarly, attributing a face, hand, fingers, feet, leg, anger, and the like attributes does not entail that Allah’s Attributes are like those of the human beings. He (may He be Glorified) is described as what He tells about Himself and what His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) said in a way befitting Him, without being in similitude with any of His Creatures. Allah (may He be Glorified and Exalted) says:Surah Al-Shura, 42: 11 There is nothing like Him; and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer. We have to accept this in the way that the Messenger intended without Takyif (questioning Allah’s Attributes) or Tamthil.

The meaning – Allah knows best – is that He created Adam in His Image with a face and ability to hear, speak, see and do whatever he wants. It is not necessarily that the image is the same. This is a general rule according to the Ahl-ul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah (those adhering to the Sunnah and the Muslim main body), meaning that the Ayahs (Qur’anic verses) and Hadiths speaking about Divine Attributes should be accepted as true without Tahrif (distortion of the meaning), Takyif, Tamthil or Ta`til. They confirm His Names and Attributes without Tamthil and exalt Him above being similar to His Creatures without Ta`til, contrary to those who commit Bid`ah (innovation in religion) of Al-Mu`attilah (deniers of Allah’s Attributes) and Mushabihah (those who liken Allah’s Attributes to those of His creation). The hearing, seeing and knowledge of the creature is never like those of Allah (may He be Glorified and Exalted), for none of His creatures can be compared to Him. Indeed, there is nothing like Him, for the Attributes of Allah are perfect and infinite, with no shortcomings. As for the attributes of the creatures, they are finite and imperfect.

May Allah grant us success!

Ibn Baz Fatwas


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AdamB
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:44 am 
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Red Fraction wrote:
The intention of GOD was to make man a people who would commit sins, so that by seeking GOD's forgiveness and asking for HIM to accept our repentance


Adamb......... That extract above from your post is most misleading and is an attack on Gods character. How can you say God intent was to make man who would commit sin??

That's like saying God destroys and kills smh.
I really wish you would desist from making God out to be a selfish tyrant who revels in seeing humans suffer.

Red Fraction,
I went through this discussion before. You are the one attacking GOD's character by claiming that HE created us to NOT SIN but we humans somehow have broken away from the nature in which GOD has created us, so that we can commit sin.
Look you have your theology, and if you don't apply logic to it or accept it even though it makes no sense, then that's your choice. GOD created us with an intellect and the ability to choose the path to our destiny.


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AdamB
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:03 am 
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[quote="turbohead
bro no offense but i think you should really expand and get proofs from credible ulema with permission in their education from the teachers that lead straight back to the pinnacle foundation of islam... these youtube sheiks you dealing wit that read a book and deducing from there own capacity is not in rank with the likes of Shayk abdul qadir jalani, Imam ahmad raza khan, Imam ghazali, may Allah bless their souls... for they were jus a few of the leading ulema that set the pace for us in islam, if you could find any "maulana" that could refute our ulema of the present times like Shayk habib ali jifri, Imam khalid hussain, Shayk ninowi, Shayk yacoubi and countless others i would consider taking your ruthless claims on, you fellas should stick to wat yuh good at and leave which doesnt concern you when you go with half truths and inuendos.... i pm'ed you so that i wouldnt have to deal wit you on the forum but yuh pushing yuh luck and making an ass out of yourself.. if you choose to follow the likes of abdul wahab of najd then i suggest you dont dive into topics that you dont know about.[/quote]
My dear brother in Islam,
I will repeat this from the above post on Allah having a form/not being imageless:
In fact, it is virtuous to admit the truth, which is the goal of the believers. Admitting the truth guides the people to the truth and distracts them from falsehood. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If anyone calls others to follow right guidance, his reward will be equivalent to those who follow him (in righteousness) until the Day of Resurrection without their reward being diminished in any respect, and if anyone invites others to follow error, the sin will be equivalent to that of the people who follow him (in sinfulness) until the Day of Resurrection without their sins being diminished in any respect.”

May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!


If you were living isolated with only the Quran and the books of Hadith, please tell me how the path you would take to worship your LORD would lead to Sufism / Mysticism?

Ask yourself this question: Did our prophet Muhammad, Abu bakr as-siddique, Umar, Uthman and 'Ali follow the path of Sufism?


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AdamB
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:06 am 
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d spike wrote:
sMASH wrote:
i can't believe i did not hit the 'enter' button.
so far the person of the son, or the word is to god like a reflection is to an object. it does not exist without its originator.
am i with u so far?

Yes, quite right.
Just remember, that the image is perfect itself, so it is no mere "reflection".


AdamB wrote:
Who created the mirror that has the power to duplicate GOD

AdamB wrote:
Why not is the mirror also a god?

I explained it was but an analogy. Do you have no idea what "idea" or "concept" means?
The "image" is a way of explaining the self-concept of God.

AdamB wrote:
and where does this sequence of "assumptions" come from?

It's called 'Theology', my dear uneducated friend. Perhaps if you would care to attempt looking it up in ANY encyclopaedia, or even "google" it, you would easily get an answer.

AdamB wrote:
I have asked dspike but no answers as yet! Ah talking 'bout source of knowledge nah cause it surely ain't logical!

Be wary in exposing your ignorance in public. It will only lead to embarrassment. This "sequence of assumptions" is older than Islam, and has been accepted by scholars for centuries. Use your brain. This obviously means you just need to peruse the writings of theologians who lived before 600 A.D., and discussed the Trinity.
If you are not even capable of recognizing or researching with this extremely narrowed field, then I doubt you will be capable of discussing this matter at the level these goodly gentlemen did.

AdamB wrote:
Spikey, the name/s of the relevant Christian scholar/s and link to their works / documents / website.

For more than a thousand years these gentlemen and their writings were well-respected, even revered, in the educated world.
It is not my fault that you don't know of them, or that you might wrongly interpret their essays - which have been understood and debated by learned folk for hundreds of years...

If you don't care for Bach or Beethoven's music, it just means you never educated your taste... not that their music is old-fashioned.

Blah blah blah!!! No references = no basis = misguidance


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brams112
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:16 am 
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how this gone from religion enlightment to bashing others?seems like the people who does walk the road in here too


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ABA Trading LTD
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:32 am 
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lol @ muslims fighting muslims , men saying they know for SURE what God intention was then another saying the other being offensive.

Kix yes

At the end of the day, how do ANY of you know ANYTHING for sure about a event/person/God/alien that happened thousands of years ago?

Think of it this way, in a group of 20 people today, If i tell a story to the first one and its passed on and on and on, by the time it reach the 20th person, that story has stuff taken out and added in. It isn't the original story.


You really think that stuff that supposedly happened thousands of years ago and has been written down,translated,modified to suit certain situations, translated again, carried across continents can be relied upon to say you know anything FOR SURE? or it's a FACT?

Unless there's a glowing gold book in the sky that speaks the word of God loud enough everyday and performs miracles for all those who go near it then even the first Koran or Bible or Bhagavad Gita's can't be trusted.

All the original texts have what the original author decide to put,with his opinion and twists on things.


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ABA Trading LTD
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:27 am 
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sMASH
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:36 am 
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AdamB wrote:
Red Fraction wrote:
The intention of GOD was to make man a people who would commit sins, so that by seeking GOD's forgiveness and asking for HIM to accept our repentance


Adamb......... That extract above from your post is most misleading and is an attack on Gods character. How can you say God intent was to make man who would commit sin??

That's like saying God destroys and kills smh.
I really wish you would desist from making God out to be a selfish tyrant who revels in seeing humans suffer.

Red Fraction,
I went through this discussion before. You are the one attacking GOD's character by claiming that HE created us to NOT SIN but we humans somehow have broken away from the nature in which GOD has created us, so that we can commit sin.
Look you have your theology, and if you don't apply logic to it or accept it even though it makes no sense, then that's your choice. GOD created us with an intellect and the ability to choose the path to our destiny.

god created us with the ability to choose between good and bad. the scenario in the garden of eden was there to actualize our selves. if there was no options, then we cannot use our ability to choose. if we cannot choose then we would not need to use our intellect and it is of no use having it or even granting it.
the 'original sin' is supported by the writings where it is said that the forbidden tree had importance and powers. the only importance it had was that it was the set used to create a scenario where man can choose to disobey. the only power it had was it was there.
if god did not create the avenue to choose then we would have been good little humans, tending the garden, enjoying the bounties... with no disobedience. but we did choose, and are not good little people, but intelligent people, we can watch the world and figure out a path.
we can also figure out a way back if we take a path not worthwhile treading.

so, having many different beliefs about god, the world, or even a non-belief in god, are just different paths. the onus is on u to use what u have to make the best decision. your falter would be if u start in something and continue in it with out considering if it is the best.

i am not saying that god should be cruel and tyrannical. i am also not saying that he should be loving and wanting us to come back to him. what i am saying, is that he is above all those concepts we recognize. but he is fair, just, and those things are demonstrated when having to judge.

islam subtly gives great importance to the aspect of god as being the judge. it stresses on the day of judgement. it also says that the power to forgive and punish is his alone, the reasons he punishes or forgives are his to decide. allah know best.

so when people criticize god for being loving when the children die in africa out of mere starvation or simple illnesses and they suffer, it amounts to their trials and our trials. what would we do with what we have. it is easy for him to give them food, as he has done with mary mother of jesus. but that is not the point, what do we do?

the child would die, and suffer.
but the more u have, the more accountable u are. and on the day of judgement, god would be just, and be fair. every one would get what they deserve



that is, of course, if u believe in a god.


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AdamB
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:21 am 
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that is, of course, if u believe in a god.

Take note ABA Trading,
If you don't believe in a god, that's a choice too. A choice for which whoever chooses it will endure the consequences.

Crossdrilled,
So, what happen no one else gives charity? Are you satisfied with the answer?
BTW Mosque halls are also used for free for weddings and other events, that's charity too.


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Duane 3NE 2NR
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:33 am 
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I'm trying to understand all sides here

God created man with free will, but then gave strict guidelines on how to live and if you don't follow it, you go to hell for eternal damnation.

correct?


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sMASH
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:55 pm 
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all this links back to the purpose of life. consider it from religion, it would be to serve god. consider it from atheists, it would be just to go on, as u are here already.

what do u do? that depends on u. u may choose to fleck every thing and do what u want how u want. u may choose to be a priest and be celibate (at least with mature females).

why should an atheist be good and kind and pay taxes? there is the law of the land which would stop u from doing bad and continue doing it. his fun would be short lived. but if there was no law or system preventing u from doing any thing wrong or bad, then why can't u go and thief the neighbor farrari and drive round the place? or not, why can't u, but why should u be kind and good.

why doesn't an atheist slap down a person and take what they have to improve their own standing and enjoyment? would they feel bad and remorse for being unjust to another human? but why feel bad at all? is it a bio-mechanical fail safe to over ride the animal instincts of self sustenance in order to ensure the propagation of the species, at the level of the individual?
emotions and sympathy and all that are in every one to a varying degrees. so it is there. why and to what end, who knows, but it is there. u feel icky when doing something bad to other people.
u have restrictions built into your brain, which works a little differently with every one.

absolute freedom is impossible, at least for us.

why give freedom if you are meant to choose a path any way, or u have compelling urges to go to a specific path?
eternal damnation may not be as eternal nor as damning as one might have initially noticed.
why put us here if only to damn us, most of us.
that links with the question of why are we here.

we are told in islam that ultimate judgement lies with god alone. so, although we have been provided laws to live by, which seems more like guidelines in some regards, the ultimate determinant of what we do is still undetermined. we have guidelines and still it does not breed surety, every thing still has to be weighed in context.

to create us to damn us, doesn't seem fair, as well as puts no purpose to the other galaxies in the universe


Last edited by sMASH on Wed May 30, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AdamB
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:36 pm 
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ABA Trading LTD wrote:
lol @ muslims fighting muslims , men saying they know for SURE what God intention was then another saying the other being offensive.
Even muslims have gone astray. GOD does not say in the Quran that muslims go to Paradise but rather "believers", there is a big difference.

At the end of the day, how do ANY of you know ANYTHING for sure about a event/person/God/alien that happened thousands of years ago?
How do you know that it didn't?

Think of it this way, in a group of 20 people today, If i tell a story to the first one and its passed on and on and on, by the time it reach the 20th person, that story has stuff taken out and added in. It isn't the original story.
Please research the preservation of the Quran in Arabic, any two on the face of the Earth are identical. The entire Quran is memorized word for word, letter for letter by millions of muslims. There are scholars whose works of explaining the Quran are also documented.

Also, the actions, approvals, disapprovals, commands/instructions and prohibitions FROM THE MOUTH OF OUR PROPHET AND witnessed by his Companions are recorded and memorized also by scholars of hadith. Each hadith has a text and full chain of narrators until it was recorded / memorized by Imams who collected them. The men who passed on the hadith one to another had to have trustworthy character, with good history of memory, precision, practising the religion and known for not telling lies or other immoral practises. There are books written on the biographical evaluation of these men call Ilm-ul-Rijaal (Knowledge of the men of hadith). There are categories of hadith and nomenclature. http://abdurrahman.org/sunnah/thescienc ... thmsa.html
The Science of Hadith
In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate the Most Merciful
We have, Without doubt, sent down the message: and we will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (Qur'an 15:9)

The promise made by Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other.

Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) preserved the Sunnah by enabling the companions and those after them to memorize, write down and pass on the statements of the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam), and the descriptions of his way, as well as to continue the blessings of practicing the Sunnah.

Later, as the purity of the knowledge of the Sunnah became threatened, Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) caused the Muslim Ummah to produce individuals with exceptional memory skills and analytical expertise, who travelled tirelessly to collect thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of prophetic wisdom from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the large number of Ulama (scholars), the companions and those who followed their way. All of this was achieved through precise attention to the words narrated, and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of hadith.

The methodology of the expert scholars of hadith in assessing the narrations and sorting out the genuine from the mistaken and fabricated, for ms the subject matter of the science of hadith. In this article a brief discussion is given of the terminology and classifications of hadith.

Components of Hadith
A hadith is composed of three parts (see the figure [below]):

<!--[if !vml]--> <!--[endif]-->

Matn (text), isnad (chain of reporters), and taraf (the part, or the beginning sentence, of the text which refers to the sayings, actions or characteristics of the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam), or his concurrence with others action). The authenticity of the hadith depends on the reliability of its reporters, and the linkage among them.

Classifications of Hadith
A number of classifications of hadith have been made. Five of these classifications are shown in the figure [below], and are briefly described subsequently.

<!--[if !vml]--> <!--[endif]-->

According to the reference to a particular authority
Four types of hadith can be identified.
Qudsi - Divine; a revelation from Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala); relayed with the words of the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam).
Marfu - elevated; a narration from the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam), e.g. I heard the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam) saying ...
Mauquf- stopped: a narration from a companion only, e.g., we were commanded to ...
Maqtu' - severed: a narration from a successor.
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According to the links of Isnad - interrupted or uninterrupted
Six categories can be identified.
Musnad - supported: a hadith which is reported by a traditionalist, based on what he learned from his teacher at a time of life suitable for learning; similarly - in turn - for each teacher until the isnad reaches a well known companion, who in turn, reports from the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam).
Mutassil - continuous: a hadith with an uninterrupted isnad which goes back only to a companion or successor.
Mursal - hurried: if the link between the successor and the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam) is missing, e.g. when a successor says "The Prophet said...".
Munqati - broken: is a hadith whose link anywhere before the successor (i.e., closer to the traditionalist recording the hadith) is missing.
Mu'adal - perplexing: is a hadith whose reporter omits two or more consecutive reporters in the isnad.
Mu'allaq - hanging: is a hadith whose reporter omits the whole isnad and quotes the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam) directly (i.e., the link is missing at the beginning).


According to the number of reporters involved in each stage of Isnad
Five categories of hadith can be identified:
Mutawatir - Consecutive: is a hadith which is reported by such a large number of people that they cannot be expected to agree upon a lie, all of them together.
Ahad - isolated: is a hadith which is narrated by people whose number does not reach that of the mutawatir.
It is further classified into:
Mash'hur - famous: hadith reported by more than two reporters.
Aziz - rare, strong: at any stage in the isnad, only two reporters are found to narrate the hadith.
Gharib - strange: At some stage of the Isnad, only one reporter is found relating it.


According to the nature of the text and isnad
Munkar - denounced: is a hadith which is reported by a weak narrator, and whose narration goes against another authentic hadith.
Mudraj - interpolated: an addition by a reporter to the text of the hadith being narrated.


According to the reliability and memory of the reporters
This provides the final verdict on a hadith - four categories can be identified:
Sahih - sound. Imam Al-shafi'i states the following requiremetts for a hadith, which is not mutawatir, to be acceptable "each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthtul in his narrating, to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and to report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning".
Hasan - good: is the one where its source is known and its reporters are unambiguous.
Da'if - weak: a hadith which fails to reach the status of hasan. Usually, the weakness is: a) one of discontinuity in the isnad, in which case the hadith could be - according to the nature of the discontinuity - munqati (broken), mu'allaq (hanging), mu'dal (perplexing), or mursal (hurried), or b) one of the reporters having a disparaged character, such as due to his telling lies, excessive mistakes, opposition to the narration of more reliable sources, involvement in innovation, or ambiguity surrounding his person.
Maudu' - fabricated or forged: is a hadith whose text goes against the established norms of the Prophet's sayings, or its reporters include a liar. Fabricated hadith are also recognized by external evidence related to a discrepancy found in the dates or times of a particular incident.

Check out a brief history of the SCIENCE OF HADITH : http://abdurrahman.org/sunnah/briefhist ... adith.html

I don't blame you for thinking this way because you have not seen this type of preservation and accuracy in any other religion, so you assume that all religions are the same. SO NOT TRUE!! GOD knows that there are people like you and Duane (OK and MG, Crossdrilled, Humes, dspike, dnoah, bluefete, Megadoc1, Red Fraction, brams112, and others) who would question every single thing before acceptance, that is why HE has set out this system to preserve HIS RELIGION FOR OUR TIME.


You really think that stuff that supposedly happened thousands of years ago and has been written down,translated,modified to suit certain situations, translated again, carried across continents can be relied upon to say you know anything FOR SURE? or it's a FACT?
This hasn't happened to the Quran and Hadith.

Unless there's a glowing gold book in the sky that speaks the word of God loud enough everyday and performs miracles for all those who go near it then even the first Koran or Bible or Bhagavad Gita's can't be trusted.
I refer to what I have posted above on Quran and hadith.

All the original texts have what the original author decide to put,with his opinion and twists on things.
The Quran is unaltered. The hadith have been classified as sound, good, weak and fabricated. The weak and fabricated are rejected if it (the weak) opposes other established sound and good hadith. Only the sound hadith are used in matters of creed.

I humbly ask you to review the above OBJECTIVELY to see if with this system that it is possible to preserve the revelation of GOD and instructions from his Messenger/prophet. Thereafter, I ask you to bear witness to it, TO ONE GOD, TO MUHAMMAD BEING THE TRUE AND LAST MESSENGER OF GOD,
TO ALL OF THE PROPHETS BEING EQUAL,
TO GETTING TO KNOW YOUR LORD,
TO OBEDIENCE TO GOD,
TO ENJOINING GOOD AND FORBIDDING EVIL,
TO GOOD ACTION AND CHARACTER,
TO PREPARE YOURSELF FOR MEETING YOUR LORD,
TO ENTER INTO PARADISE (BY THE MERCY OF GOD) GOD WILLING,
TO FULFILLING THE PURPOSE OF YOUR EXISTENCE.


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AdamB
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:56 pm 
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turbohead wrote:
wrt sufism it is the spiritual aspect of islam and whereby one cannot be a sufi and not be a sunni... it is a higher attained spiritual essence in islam through the controlled chain of order and permissions in spiritual aspects...

There is no SPIRITUAL ASPECT of Islam except what has caused some to go astray and be self-deluded away from the truth. The TRUTH that Islam is based on knowledge and logic / reasoning based on that knowledge.
This "spirituality" stems from men wanting to be "above others". All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. (Exerp from The prophet's Last Sermon)

What is the basis of this "CONTROLLED CHAIN OF ORDER"?

Who grants "PERMISSIONS in spiritual aspects"?

If the Messenger did not deliver these to us, then did he failed in his mission? Or have they perfected the religion of Islam better than Allah (subhaanahu wa ta'alaa) did? Be my witness, O ALLAH, that I have conveyed your message to your people. (also from the last sermon)

Certainly these are NOT FROM THE RELIGION OF ISLAM!!

MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON US ALL AND GUIDE US TO THE TRUTH!


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megadoc1
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:
I'm trying to understand all sides here

God created man with free will, but then gave strict guidelines on how to live and if you don't follow it, you go to hell for eternal damnation.

correct?
no, God created us with free will to love. the "strict" guidelines on how to live, were given to a people who's hearts were hardened,it was also a way God chose to show them how much they fall short of holiness... now all of that has been taking care of at the cross, where one receives a new heart and walks in righteousness as he believes
Quote:


The Existence of Evil
evil is a result of God’s love. There are different beings, creatures and species on the earth: worms, bacteria, dogs and humans etc. The privilege of being a human is having the capacity to exhibit true love which must be a free choice to be truly called love. So God created us like him – it is the only way love can be exhibited - for God is love. Being like God means we have freewill and we can choose God or No God. This choice allows for the existence of evil. Could not the Almighty God find another way to do this? The answer is yes but then we will all be robots. God made us like Him because that is the only way love can be shown. There is only one way to be like God.


What about suffering in the world?
God could instantly stop suffering on the earth. However it will mean forcing His will on humanity. God could rule the earth like Superman. He can use His omniscience and His omnipresence and instantly stop evil wherever it happens on the earth. Humanity would be subject to Him in every way and the earth would be a beautiful place. However, we will then stop being human. So God in His eternal wisdom has chosen to rule the earth through His love – it is only then that His nature would be manifest in us.

What does Jesus teach?
Jesus is a real historical figure whose impact on the world was significant ...

How do his teachings play out as we look for meaning in life? Jesus message is simple – Love God and love one another as He loves us.
Jesus teaches that no one is good, no not one. He says we have all sinned and fallen short of God’s standard for perfection. He says we are all lost, hence the name Jesus means “Saviour”. Jesus came for a people who could not save themselves.

What are the claims of Jesus?

1. We have all sinned

We were born with a sin nature which makes sinning natural to us. As a result, teachings etc. can do little to help us. It is like a dog – it is his nature to bark and chase cars. If we are trying to get a dog to stop doing that – we will need to bring out the old chain and tie the dog up or lock it in a kennel. I guess it will bark even more. Religion is generally an attempt to tie up a dog. “Thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not steal” are essentially chains to keep us from sinning. Religion tends to fail because humanity’s problem is in our nature and sinful heart. All “thou shall not’s” do is prove that we are sinners.

2. Jesus answer – A New Nature

Jesus’ answer is a new nature – being born again in the spirit. Jesus was not born of the seed of a man therefore He didn’t carry the sin nature but He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. His promise is if someone receives Him He will give them a New Nature. Just like how we sin naturally with the “old nature”; with the “new nature” we naturally do good. So Jesus calls us righteous, holy and perfected forever – it is His gift to us. We do not lose it by sinning and because we have this new nature we don’t want to sin. It is an incorruptible nature.

This is why a Christian believes he is already made perfect by Jesus Christ. We are tri-une beings like God – we are spirits that possess a soul and live in a body. When someone receives Jesus, they receive a new spiritual nature that is perfect, holy and righteous forever.

It is the reason that when Jesus was on the earth, He said a new commandment I give you but it is really the same commandments before addressed to a new nature. His commandment is “thou shall love”. Jesus has untied all the “nots” in “thou shall not.”





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d spike
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ABA Trading LTD wrote:
All the original texts have what the original author decide to put,with his opinion and twists on things.

Well put. Unfortunately, any fundamentalist (someone who takes his scripture literally, believes Adam really existed, Noah really floated his boat, etc.) HAS to believe that the scribbles he snarls over are EXACTLY the same as they were when Moses/Jesus/Prophet/hairy-looking-guy-on-street-corner wrote/uttered them... and will not even consider the human aspect of the humans who, in putting pen to paper (stylus to tablet?), would have had an opinion, or lacked knowledge of all the facts involved in the topic they choose to write about. One must always consider the culture and the era out of which the specific scripture arose.


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turbohead
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Quote:
AdamB wrote:
[quote="turbohead
bro no offense but i think you should really expand and get proofs from credible ulema with permission in their education from the teachers that lead straight back to the pinnacle foundation of islam... these youtube sheiks you dealing wit that read a book and deducing from there own capacity is not in rank with the likes of Shayk abdul qadir jalani, Imam ahmad raza khan, Imam ghazali, may Allah bless their souls... for they were jus a few of the leading ulema that set the pace for us in islam, if you could find any "maulana" that could refute our ulema of the present times like Shayk habib ali jifri, Imam khalid hussain, Shayk ninowi, Shayk yacoubi and countless others i would consider taking your ruthless claims on, you fellas should stick to wat yuh good at and leave which doesnt concern you when you go with half truths and inuendos.... i pm'ed you so that i wouldnt have to deal wit you on the forum but yuh pushing yuh luck and making an ass out of yourself.. if you choose to follow the likes of abdul wahab of najd then i suggest you dont dive into topics that you dont know about.

My dear brother in Islam,
I will repeat this from the above post on Allah having a form/not being imageless:
In fact, it is virtuous to admit the truth, which is the goal of the believers. Admitting the truth guides the people to the truth and distracts them from falsehood. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If anyone calls others to follow right guidance, his reward will be equivalent to those who follow him (in righteousness) until the Day of Resurrection without their reward being diminished in any respect, and if anyone invites others to follow error, the sin will be equivalent to that of the people who follow him (in sinfulness) until the Day of Resurrection without their sins being diminished in any respect.”

May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!


If you were living isolated with only the Quran and the books of Hadith, please tell me how the path you would take to worship your LORD would lead to Sufism / Mysticism?

Ask yourself this question: Did our prophet Muhammad, Abu bakr as-siddique, Umar, Uthman and 'Ali follow the path of Sufism?
[/quote]


first tings first, bro arabic isnt my local tongue and i cant interpret it, that is one flaw, if you want to propose a proper case do so with real circumstances, neone who is living isolated with no means of communications wit any outsiders if one day received a car package wit books wit words he cant understand would jus leave it be and probably use it as firewood.

i cannot do justice of explaining the sweetness of tasawuf to you, but it has a lot to do with hadith jibraeel... ponder on that for a while and when you ready 2 be a lil educated i will put you on to some1 for guidance.

as for the word bidah which i widely used by the salafi and wahabi movements to justify that wat we sunnis do is shirk you need to understand the concept first of the word bidah...
anything that came after the prophet is a bidah, one of the greatest bidah was teh compilation of the Quran which you read today....in the time of abu bakr(RA) when it was proposed to do so it was frowned upon because the Rasool(saws) didnt do it. do your research and then condemn bro


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AdamB
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:58 am 
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turbohead wrote:
Quote:
AdamB wrote:
[quote="turbohead
bro no offense but i think you should really expand and get proofs from credible ulema with permission in their education from the teachers that lead straight back to the pinnacle foundation of islam... these youtube sheiks you dealing wit that read a book and deducing from there own capacity is not in rank with the likes of Shayk abdul qadir jalani, Imam ahmad raza khan, Imam ghazali, may Allah bless their souls... for they were jus a few of the leading ulema that set the pace for us in islam, if you could find any "maulana" that could refute our ulema of the present times like Shayk habib ali jifri Refutation of Habib Ali al Jifiri – Sheikh Fawzaan

Question :
What is your opinion on Habib Ali ul Jifiri ? Is he from Ahl Al Sunnah Wa Al Jaamah ? We have heard many people state that listening to him is fine. So please clarify for us his creed because their has been a great affliction caused by this man.

Sheikh Fawzaan :
The mans audio recordings and books will judge for itself. The man is an innovator. A babbler. He calls to worship the graves and souls. He is a babbler. His audio recordings are available. In his own words, he mocks Ahl AlSunnah and Ahl Al-Tawheed (Family Of Monotheism). He mocks them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1OfxstgZx4

Refutation of Habib Ali al Jifiri – Sheikh al Raajahee

Question:
A questioner from the UAE asks, many people have taken up the issue of warning against him or defending him in regards to Habib Ali al Jifri. So what is your advice ? And if he is to be warned against – than is this considered from the forbidden type of backbiting ?

Sheikh AbdelAziz al Raajhee :
What we see is that Habib Ali Al Jifri is a sufi (soofee) and the sufis are ash’aris. He praises them – promotes pantheism “wihdet al wujuud” and the likes of it (them). Likewise he endorses shirk (polytheism), and the seeking intercession (supplication) from / on the dead. He is a babbler, qaaburee (grave worshiper), sufi, ash’ari. This isn’t considered backbiting, rather it is mere advice. Warning against the evil doers, innovators, and the ones that mislead. This isn’t backbiting, rather this is advice. He is a babbler. There is no doubt that he is a babbler. We have heard his words on an audio recording of him, we have found that he endorses the call of the qaaburiyyah (grave worshipers) and seeking intercession from the Prophet. He attributes baseless matters to the Companions – he negates the hadiths. He is a babbler, sufi, qaaburee, ash’ari.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5TJjsSAzk
, Imam khalid hussain, Shayk ninowi, Shayk yacoubi and countless others i would consider taking your ruthless claims on, you fellas should stick to wat yuh good at and leave which doesnt concern you when you go with half truths and inuendos.... i pm'ed you so that i wouldnt have to deal wit you on the forum but yuh pushing yuh luck and making an ass out of yourself.. if you choose to follow the likes of abdul wahab of najd then i suggest you dont dive into topics that you dont know about.

My dear brother in Islam,
I will repeat this from the above post on Allah having a form/not being imageless:
In fact, it is virtuous to admit the truth, which is the goal of the believers. Admitting the truth guides the people to the truth and distracts them from falsehood. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If anyone calls others to follow right guidance, his reward will be equivalent to those who follow him (in righteousness) until the Day of Resurrection without their reward being diminished in any respect, and if anyone invites others to follow error, the sin will be equivalent to that of the people who follow him (in sinfulness) until the Day of Resurrection without their sins being diminished in any respect.”

May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!


If you were living isolated with only the Quran and the books of Hadith, please tell me how the path you would take to worship your LORD would lead to Sufism / Mysticism?

Ask yourself this question: Did our prophet Muhammad, Abu bakr as-siddique, Umar, Uthman and 'Ali follow the path of Sufism?



first tings first, bro arabic isnt my local tongue and i cant interpret it, that is one flaw, if you want to propose a proper case do so with real circumstances, neone who is living isolated with no means of communications wit any outsiders if one day received a car package wit books wit words he cant understand would jus leave it be and probably use it as firewood. then why don't you educate yourself in the Arabic language instead of blindly following those "gurus" who are misleading you?

i cannot do justice of explaining the sweetness of tasawuf to you, but it has a lot to do with hadith jibraeel...Please send me or post your explanation of hadith Jibreel that supports "TASAWUF" ponder on that for a while and when you ready 2 be a lil educated i will put you on to some1 for guidance.I am ah lil educated and doh need to be led astray. I have posted above on one of your beloved shaykhs.

as for the word bidah which i widely used by the salafi and wahabi movements to justify that wat we sunnis do is shirk you need to understand the concept first of the word bidah...bid'ah means innovation, which is acceptable in all matters except that of creed and worship.
Shaykh Muhammad Nasiruddeen Albaani said:
Coming closer to Allaah Ta’ala cannot be done except with what Allaah has legislated.

From Anas bin Malik who said: I was sitting with Ubayy and Abu Talha, and we had just eaten meat and bread, then I called for water to make Wudu. Ubayy and Abu Talha said to me: ‘Why are you making Wudu?’

Anas said: ‘Because of this food we just ate.’

They said: ‘Do you make Wudu because of good things (food)?! One who was better than you(the Messenger -sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam-), did not make Wudu after eating.’

[Collected by Ahmad, & Albaani said its Isnad is Jayyid]

Shaykh Muhammad Nasiruddeen Albaani commented:

‘This Athar (narration) indicates that the Companions would reject coming closer to Allaah- Ta’ala- with an action which the Messenger of Allaah -sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam- did not legislate whether with statements or actions, as for Anas being concerned with making Wudu for eating meat, then perhaps the saying of the Messenger -sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam- reached him: ‘Make Wudu for that meat which has been cooked on fire’, and it did not reach him that it had been abrogated and Allaah knows best.’

[From: Mishkat 1\107 #329]
that came after the prophet is a bidah, one of the greatest bidah was teh compilation of the Quran which you read today....in the time of abu bakr(RA) when it was proposed to do so it was frowned upon because the Rasool(saws) didnt do it. Verily one of the characteristics of those who deviate is that they frown upon the Companions and what they have done, what they stood for, what they implemented. May Allah guide you back to the straight path.do your research and then condemn bro[/quote]
Assalaamu 'alaikum, See my comments above.


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ABA Trading LTD
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:32 am 
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AdamB
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:40 am 
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ABA, what's your point?
Looks like a muslim beard to me!!


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AdamB
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:50 am 
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d spike wrote:
ABA Trading LTD wrote:
All the original texts have what the original author decide to put,with his opinion and twists on things.

Well put. Unfortunately, any fundamentalist (someone who takes his scripture literally, believes Adam really existed, Noah really floated his boat, etc.) HAS to believe that the scribbles he snarls over are EXACTLY the same as they were when Moses/Jesus/Prophet/hairy-looking-guy-on-street-corner wrote/uttered them... and will not even consider the human aspect of the humans who, in putting pen to paper (stylus to tablet?), would have had an opinion, or lacked knowledge of all the facts involved in the topic they choose to write about. One must always consider the culture and the era out of which the specific scripture arose.

Other scriptures have been changed / "corrected" by man. Not so the Quran and Hadith. There is real, physical, objective evidence to support this.
Accept the truth / facts or continue to spin "top in mud". Again, the free choice is yours!


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AdamB
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:06 pm 
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megadoc1 wrote:
Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:
I'm trying to understand all sides here

God created man with free will, but then gave strict guidelines on how to live and if you don't follow it, you go to hell for eternal damnation.

correct?
no, God created us with free will to love. the "strict" guidelines on how to live, were given to a people who's hearts were hardened,it was also a way God chose to show them how much they fall short of holiness... now all of that has been taking care of at the cross, where one receives a new heart and walks in righteousness as he believes
Quote:


Wasn't the People of the Book in the Old Testament given strict guidelines? Didn't Jesus say that he did not come to change the Law or the Scripture BUT to fulfill it?

There were always "strict guidelines" and will always have except for what man has changed due to his desires wanting to relax these.

THE MUSLIM VIEW:

It's simple...OBEY GOD and DON'T DISOBEY HIM.

Pertaining to going to hell for eternal damnation:
Everyone will be judged by GOD, his good deeds compared to his bad deeds.

Those believers whose good deeds outweigh the bad deeds will enter Paradise by the Mercy of GOD.

Some believers due to their bad deeds outweighing their good deeds will spend some time in hell as long as GOD wills but will be taken out and allowed to enter Paradise. Hence Islam stresses on performing good deeds and if one does a bad deed, to repent and followup with good deeds. This is how the good deeds erase the bad deeds.

There will be some (maybe few) believers who will be allowed entry in Paradise WITHOUT RECKONING / JUDGMENT. These are those who said "there is no god but the ONE TRUE GOD" Seeking in it GOD's FACE.This means (on the most basic level) that they were sincere and acted upon their belief without lapse.

Believers are those who believe in GOD and HIS ONENESS AND DID NOT ASSOCIATE PARTNERS TO HIM IN WORSHIP.

But those who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations) and treat them with arrogance, they are the dwellers of the (hell) Fire, they will abide therein forever.
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #36)

Verily, the Mujrimun (criminals, sinners, disbelievers) will be in the torment of hell to abide therein forever.
( سورة الزخرف , Az-Zukhruf, Chapter #43, Verse #74)
Read about it from the Quran: http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_disp ... tor=5&mac=


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d spike
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:39 pm 
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brams112 wrote:
how this gone from religion enlightment to bashing others?

This is ALWAYS the case when fanatics attempt to discuss an aspect of religion outside their "faith bubble" and above their intelligence capacity. From the time they are losing their grip in the debate, they start insulting and deriding the religion of their "opponent". Hence the reason why I decline to state my "religion"... it drives them crazy as they have no idea in which direction to start pelting stones!

AdamB wrote:
Other scriptures have been changed / "corrected" by man.

And what proof do you have of this? Because they were translated????? Please...
Let me guess... this was taught to you by the same quacks who claim "Christians call Jesus the Spirit of Allah"?
While I agree that the WORDS have changed, the general meaning of the passages haven't... but why does this bother you so much?
If you wish to proclaim Islam as being a great religion, go ahead.
However, attempting to deride other religions in order to make yours look good is CHILDISH and PUERILE.

I might point out to you that scripture, ALL scripture, was written by men. Being inspired by God to write passages was never a case of God snatching away someone's pencil saying, "Hold on, lemme write dis t'ing."


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d spike
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:48 pm 
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AdamB wrote:
ABA, what's your point?

...that this icon of Jesus looks remarkably like Haile Selassie, duh :roll: ...

AdamB wrote:
Looks like a muslim beard to me!!

Beards have religion??? :shock:


AdamB, I'm still wondering where you read that I am the "godfather of Christianity"... that nonsensical remark must have had ol' megadoc rolling on the floor...
I don't suppose you have "googled" Trinity theology yet, huh?


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ABA Trading LTD
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d spike wrote:

I might point out to you that scripture, ALL scripture, was written by men. Being inspired by God to write passages was never a case of God snatching away someone's pencil saying, "Hold on, lemme write dis t'ing."



daz d thing spike, dem muslim real dred

them Koran come straight from Allah with the angel Gabreel/Gabriel.

daz before it had amazon prime and Ebooks n DHL/skybox na....angels use to deliver yuh books


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turbohead
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adam you clearly are a hardcore and i would choose not to debate on those issues wit you. you clearly dont hav the concept of taqleed and being mujtahid, you seem to know alot and bro i am but a humble man seeking knowledge and i choose the way of ahlul sunnah wa jammah... the shaykhs of ahlul sunnah wa jammah have clear ijazah on their knowledge wit clear chain of proof...


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d spike
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 9:51 pm 
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300 pages long... and the truest thing ever said within these pages is:
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Hear O Israel...
Jesus saves...
Mohammed is THE prophet...
R'amen...
WHO CARES?????

We do, individually. Yet we live as part of a collective society, interacting with each other.
We have to learn to live WITH each other, not just next to each other.
Learning how we each interact with our concept of the divine, and more importantly, identifying similarities in how we each approach that concept, can only help us appreciate other religions, appreciate a different approach to a previously accepted concept, appreciate the differences, and thus accept each other WITH our differences - rather than DESPITE our differences.

We each are charged with finding our way in the best way we know.
How a boat sails depends heavily on how it is built.
How much beam it has, where the mast is stepped, the rake of the mast, the type of sail... all these (and more) will affect how close to the wind it will sail, how well it will tack, how it will run...

To expect, or demand, that other people sail their craft the way you do yours can lead to catastrophe. You sail yours the way it sails best due to its build. Each other craft will do the same.
(I might point out that blowing another craft out of the water because it does not handle or sail the way yours does, doesn't help either!)


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d spike
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Duane 3NE 2NR
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Posts: 13175
Location: T&T
We all have an appetite. However if I eat solely based on another man's appetite, I will surely feel sick.


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