Universal Basic Income benefits for T&T?

[Dohplaydat]

Let's say the government introduced UBI, and now every citizen over 18 gets say $3000 a month.

Assuming we could afford this and I believe we can as we can simultaneously cut many other social programs and subsides.

We'd perhaps stop lots of petty crime and gang recruitment.

Single mothers would benefit significantly.

People's well being would be better as they can quit stressful jobs.

Families would have more to spend for kids helping their education.

Private sector economy would boom as well as VAT collection.

Struggling artists, musicians and other creative endeavours would boom as well as they now have a support structure.

Incentive to work would not be reduced because let's be real 3000k/mo is poor AF and men would still need more money to attract women.

Negatives I can see would be inflation and spike in substance abuse.

Discuss.

[DMan7]

You had me at $3000 per month. Where do I sign up?

[hover11]

Well you pointed out the inflation however I thinking along the terms of hyperinflation, a bag of rice would be quickly 300, flour 500 that's too much money circulating in the economy and our money has little value as is already. We are not a welfare state , we can't just print money and create value like the US

[Redman]

Let's say the government introduced UBS, and now every citizen over 18 gets say $3000 a month.

Assuming we could afford this and I believe we can as we can simultaneously cut many other social programs and subsides.

We'd perhaps stop lots of petty crime and gang recruitment.

Single mothers would benefit significantly.

People's well being would be better as they can quit stressful jobs.

Families would have more to spend for kids helping their education.

Private sector economy would boom as well as VAT collection.

Struggling artists, musicians and other creative endeavours would boom as well as they now have a support structure.

Incentive to work would not be reduced because let's be real 3000k/mo is poor AF and men would still need more money to attract women.

Negatives I can see would be inflation and spike in substance abuse.

Discuss.

Aren't we just switching one social program for another..with less requirements?

I think this will drive some wage inflation..at the min wage bracket...that is challenging to those businesses...

If there is a means test that we can figure out.
..I think it should not be universal.

Last thing we need is another program that cost $4 to deliver $1 to the target recipient.

[hover11]

Who paying t to fund this programme though , more shaft for the taxpayers I guess

[DMan7]

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

[Dohplaydat]

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

You think we can't afford it? We actually can

[DMan7]

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

You think we can't afford it? We actually can

We probably can but we won't be able to sustain it for a long period of time. As usual we gonna eventually run out of money or corruption ensues. Look what has happened with NIS.

[hover11]

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

You think we can't afford it? We actually can

The government owing public servants and statutory authorities workers backpay and increased salaries as most currently on 2013 salaries and you talking about giving ppl free money how that making any sense?It's not a matter of if they can afford it, it's a poor allocation of funds and a slap in the face for taxpayers this will just encourage unproductive habits in the population.

[alfa]

This sounds like socialism which has failed in every corner of the world. It will create a dependency syndrome and encourage even less productivity. You mentioned people can quit more stressful jobs but then who will do said jobs. Who will pick up trash if the garbage man can get 3000 to do nothing?

[Dohplaydat]

Let's say the government introduced UBS, and now every citizen over 18 gets say $3000 a month.

Assuming we could afford this and I believe we can as we can simultaneously cut many other social programs and subsides.

We'd perhaps stop lots of petty crime and gang recruitment.

Single mothers would benefit significantly.

People's well being would be better as they can quit stressful jobs.

Families would have more to spend for kids helping their education.

Private sector economy would boom as well as VAT collection.

Struggling artists, musicians and other creative endeavours would boom as well as they now have a support structure.

Incentive to work would not be reduced because let's be real 3000k/mo is poor AF and men would still need more money to attract women.

Negatives I can see would be inflation and spike in substance abuse.

Discuss.

Aren't we just switching one social program for another..with less requirements?

I think this will drive some wage inflation..at the min wage bracket...that is challenging to those businesses...

If there is a means test that we can figure out.
..I think it should not be universal.

Last thing we need is another program that cost $4 to deliver $1 to the target recipient.

Universal means universal.

Inflation is a concern, but let's be real, its overall a good thing once it's not out of control. Perhaps it can be done on a phased basis, like first year 18 to 30, next year 30 to 40 and so on.

Or start smaller, 3k too much? Perhaps go with 2k or whatever minimum wage works out to be monthly.

I don't think it will decentivize minimum wage work, in fact it have the opposite effect as combine UBI + easy minimum wage work and you could be making 5-6k a month.

[DMan7]

How about universal basic income for people who has contributed at least 20+ years work within the country? That way older people can finally leave jobs where younger people has a chance to get those positions. We've seen people hold onto jobs well into their retirement age and getting all these retirement benefits and yet younger people can't get jobs.

[hover11]

Let's say the government introduced UBS, and now every citizen over 18 gets say $3000 a month.

Assuming we could afford this and I believe we can as we can simultaneously cut many other social programs and subsides.

We'd perhaps stop lots of petty crime and gang recruitment.

Single mothers would benefit significantly.

People's well being would be better as they can quit stressful jobs.

Families would have more to spend for kids helping their education.

Private sector economy would boom as well as VAT collection.

Struggling artists, musicians and other creative endeavours would boom as well as they now have a support structure.

Incentive to work would not be reduced because let's be real 3000k/mo is poor AF and men would still need more money to attract women.

Negatives I can see would be inflation and spike in substance abuse.

Discuss.

Aren't we just switching one social program for another..with less requirements?

I think this will drive some wage inflation..at the min wage bracket...that is challenging to those businesses...

If there is a means test that we can figure out.
..I think it should not be universal.

Last thing we need is another program that cost $4 to deliver $1 to the target recipient.

Universal means universal.

Inflation is a concern, but let's be real, its overall a good thing once it's not out of control. Perhaps it can be done on a phased basis, like first year 18 to 30, next year 30 to 40 and so on.

Or start smaller, 3k too much? Perhaps go with 2k or whatever minimum wage works out to be monthly.

I don't think it will decentivize minimum wage work, in fact it have the opposite effect as combine UBS + easy minimum wage work and you could be making 5-6k a month.

Right and that 5 or 6000 would have little to no value as everyone else on the bottom of the spectrum would be on recieving basically the same every month. Demand and supply would kick in thus driving the prices of goods through the roof and we in a worse position than where we started. Giving away free money to a population is never a good idea because it's never really free someone is paying for it maybe not the current generation but the ones thereafter

[hover11]

Let's say the government introduced UBS, and now every citizen over 18 gets say $3000 a month.

Assuming we could afford this and I believe we can as we can simultaneously cut many other social programs and subsides.

We'd perhaps stop lots of petty crime and gang recruitment.

Single mothers would benefit significantly.

People's well being would be better as they can quit stressful jobs.

Families would have more to spend for kids helping their education.

Private sector economy would boom as well as VAT collection.

Struggling artists, musicians and other creative endeavours would boom as well as they now have a support structure.

Incentive to work would not be reduced because let's be real 3000k/mo is poor AF and men would still need more money to attract women.

Negatives I can see would be inflation and spike in substance abuse.

Discuss.

Aren't we just switching one social program for another..with less requirements?

I think this will drive some wage inflation..at the min wage bracket...that is challenging to those businesses...

If there is a means test that we can figure out.
..I think it should not be universal.

Last thing we need is another program that cost $4 to deliver $1 to the target recipient.

Universal means universal.

Inflation is a concern, but let's be real, its overall a good thing once it's not out of control. Perhaps it can be done on a phased basis, like first year 18 to 30, next year 30 to 40 and so on.

Or start smaller, 3k too much? Perhaps go with 2k or whatever minimum wage works out to be monthly.

I don't think it will decentivize minimum wage work, in fact it have the opposite effect as combine UBS + easy minimum wage work and you could be making 5-6k a month.

Right and that 5 or 6000 would have little to no value as everyone else on the bottom of the spectrum would be on recieving basically the same every month. Demand and supply would kick in thus driving the prices of goods through the roof and we in a worse position than where we started. Giving away free money to a population is never a good idea because it's never really free someone is paying for it maybe not the current generation but the ones thereafter.

[Redman]

Let's say the government introduced UBS, and now every citizen over 18 gets say $3000 a month.

Assuming we could afford this and I believe we can as we can simultaneously cut many other social programs and subsides.

We'd perhaps stop lots of petty crime and gang recruitment.

Single mothers would benefit significantly.

People's well being would be better as they can quit stressful jobs.

Families would have more to spend for kids helping their education.

Private sector economy would boom as well as VAT collection.

Struggling artists, musicians and other creative endeavours would boom as well as they now have a support structure.

Incentive to work would not be reduced because let's be real 3000k/mo is poor AF and men would still need more money to attract women.

Negatives I can see would be inflation and spike in substance abuse.

Discuss.

Aren't we just switching one social program for another..with less requirements?

I think this will drive some wage inflation..at the min wage bracket...that is challenging to those businesses...

If there is a means test that we can figure out.
..I think it should not be universal.

Last thing we need is another program that cost $4 to deliver $1 to the target recipient.

Universal means universal.

Inflation is a concern, but let's be real, its overall a good thing once it's not out of control. Perhaps it can be done on a phased basis, like first year 18 to 30, next year 30 to 40 and so on.

Or start smaller, 3k too much? Perhaps go with 2k or whatever minimum wage works out to be monthly.

I don't think it will decentivize minimum wage work, in fact it have the opposite effect as combine UBS + easy minimum wage work and you could be making 5-6k a month.

Universal means 4B a month.

1300,000 x3000.

Aka 48B a year.

What we getting for that?

[Dizzy28]

We have been running budget deficits since 2011. The government has been borrowing to pay recurrent expenditure. We cannot afford this.

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

You think we can't afford it? We actually can

[hover11]

We have been running budget deficits since 2011. The government has been borrowing to pay recurrent expenditure. We cannot afford this.

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

You think we can't afford it? We actually can

IMG_20210829_132955.jpg

Can you factor in trinidad Debt in there as well with the recently taken loans from China included for them to see , the position this country is in

[Dizzy28]

We have been running budget deficits since 2011. The government has been borrowing to pay recurrent expenditure. We cannot afford this.

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

You think we can't afford it? We actually can

Can you factor in trinidad Debt in there as well with the recently taken loans from China included for them to see , the position this country is in

Total debt outstanding had doubled in ten years.

[Dizzy28]

But If Daran say we could afford it with no evidence to back up his claim I guess we can afford it!!

[hover11]

We have been running budget deficits since 2011. The government has been borrowing to pay recurrent expenditure. We cannot afford this.

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

You think we can't afford it? We actually can

IMG_20210829_132955.jpg

Can you factor in trinidad Debt in there as well with the recently taken loans from China included for them to see , the position this country is in

Total debt outstanding had doubled in ten years.

Screenshot_2021-08-29-13-41-30-824_com.android.chrome.jpg

My God

[j.o.e]

Terrible idea. National productivity would fall and those actually willing to work will suffer with inflation.
Simple example, why would I rent my apartment for less that 3k ? Regardless of square foot I know you can afford that at the very least. Just give me your allowance.

[The_Honourable]

UBI sounds good but it depends mainly on the financial position and productivity of a country. T&T not in a good position in both of those categories.

For T&T, UBI is possible but the money have to come from somewhere. For UBI, are we willing to give up the "freebies" we already have? Free Primary and Secondary education? Free healthcare? Free services for pensioners? What about low cost WASA, and T&TEC rates? Subsidies? Incentives?

What about raising taxes to furthur support UBI? for example raising VAT from 12.5 to 25% or above and apply across all products and services? We ready for that?

With our financial position atm, to have UBI you have to give up most of out current social programs and subsidies plus adjust our taxes upwards to further support it. Knowing out culture, we will want UBI plus all those programs then blame the government whoever that may be for not finding the money to financially support both. If we do shift from social programs to the UBI model, the argument will be made that UBI will be spent on services that were once "free" for example primary and secondary school education which will lead to the "but the ubi money not enough" argument and how much it should be. Knowing trinis, they will always want a raise and politicians will gladly do so especially when elections come around, which would be politically smart but economically dumb.

Then we have the question, should the rich get UBI? If no, it's not UBI.

[Dohplaydat]

Ok, good discussion so far, but let's think about something here:

1. What would you prefer?

- Maintaining existing subsidies? Teritary education, gas, electricity, water, URP/CEPEP and god knows what (remove everything except health)

OR

- $3000 extra a month for every citizen over 18?

There are many net social benefits to UBI and in every trial study done (abliet in first world countries) there was a net increase in both employment and life satisfaction. Now whether than happens here in T&T remains questionable at best given our general lack of ambition.

[hover11]

Ok, good discussion so far, but let's think about something here:

1. What would you prefer?

- Maintaining existing subsidies? Teritary education, gas, electricity, water, URP/CEPEP and god knows what (remove everything except health)

OR

- $3000 extra a month for every citizen over 18?

There are many net social benefits to UBI and in every trial study done (abliet in first world countries) there was a net increase in both employment and life satisfaction. Now whether than happens here in T&T remains questionable at best given our general lack of ambition.

That 3000 per month is not feasible for many reasons. Fraud is one, we all know of ghost gangs in URP ,WASA other public entities, what makes you think this would be immune to such. This is a pie in the sky theory it will quickly fall apart, we would become similar to Jamaica or even Venezuela where our money has no value and a devaluation would happen faster than we can accommodate. Why would ppl who work CEPEP and URP /corporations, continue to work when I making more money at the end of the month for basically doing nothing but existing, labour would fall. Better you keep the subsidies while they also harm the economy, because the government has to endure the cost to buffer such , it helps everyone who deserves it and allows for management of the economy.

[viedcht]

This is essentially a business model, and it will not work if applied. Not here. Not with the Incompetence abound.

[DMan7]

Does all the free services and subsidies that citizens get adds up to $3000 per month. Free services / subsidies I'm referring to are health, education, gas, electricity, water, roads.

[The_Honourable]

How do you propose UBI be implemented in T&T? Increase taxes? Reduce social programs? Rich and poor getting a check? UBI according to tiers? How much?

I'm asking because many have UBI in mind but have different ways to implement and fund such which is understandable as we dealing with diverse populations, cultures, beliefs, finances, etc.

[Dohplaydat]

How do you propose UBI be implemented in T&T? Increase taxes? Reduce social programs? Rich and poor getting a check? UBI according to tiers? How much?

I'm asking because many have UBI in mind but have different ways to implement and fund such which is understandable as we dealing with diverse populations, cultures, beliefs, finances, etc.

Tell me what you think is best for Trinidad

[Dohplaydat]

Does all the free services and subsidies that citizens get adds up to $3000 per month. Free services / subsidies I'm referring to are health, education, gas, electricity, water, roads.

No probably not, maybe $1.5k perhaps... anyone care to offer an estimate?

But then that's just subsidies, there can be other forms of expenditure that can be reduced or cut. Basically, we can afford it without drastic increase in taxes, though I would increase VAT to 20% to easily recoup some of this money.

Now there are some UBI means tests or UBI reduction if your salary is high, those need to be thought out more.

Some say UBI is socialism, however not quite it's actually a capitalist dream given that your just put so much more money out there. Business will thrive afterwards, and new businesses will start forming as they have a support base and now a richer market.

[VexXx Dogg]

We have been running budget deficits since 2011. The government has been borrowing to pay recurrent expenditure. We cannot afford this.

This. We can no longer afford universal free tertiary education, but UBI entering the discussion?