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MG Man
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:10 pm 
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wagonrunner wrote:
even more engine braking would have been applied by the downshift.



depends.............if you downshift at the right time, there should be no engine braking
If you downshift and upon releasing the clutch the gear holds you back, it means you downshifted too early.


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wagonrunner
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:14 pm 
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while on the brake, off the clutch pedal, is the engine rpm rising or falling?


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MG Man
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:23 pm 
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depends


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rjaggs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:14 am 
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rise initially, then fall


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wagonrunner
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:47 am 
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:lol:
so for some car's its a matter of working the gas and brake pedal together to go faster then?
or is it i got a defective setup?

when i go from gas to brake, my engine rpm stops rising, and since we're talking hard brakes here, the engine rpm starts falling.

I was under the impression the brake slows the rotation of the wheel. since the engine and wheel rotate at a ratio dictated by the gearbox, when the wheels slow, so does the engine rpm, seeing they're connected by the clutch.

will see if i can pass in the garage when i have some time to bouff my mechanic for this bogus setup, and have both of try to correct this problem.


I am definitely curious to know though what causes the rpm to rise when the brake is firmly depressed and the car is in a gear.


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BANzai Rastafarai
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:26 pm 
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^^ you drive an AD Wagon. You Argument is invalid.


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X2
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:30 pm 
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chris1388 wrote:
Kevin this way probably is smoother but I find that hard to do in dex when I am running up to a corner and braking as late as possible....that is my driving style. That's why I heel and toe downshift at dex because the point where the wheels don't have load from the engine on it i.e when you go to neutral.....the car speeds ups when you trying to slow down more hence putting more stress on ur brakes and risk of overshooting the corner.



Where you refer to 'speed up'... I think you are comparing how fast the car rolls when it's in neutral versus with the gear engaged. (engine braking).

wagonrunner wrote:
he had me wondering if he goes into the corner with both brake and clutch depressed..
if the racing adage of "you're either accelerating or braking" is used.
From the time you go on the brake, you should have already dropped the gear, and come off the clutch before you come off the brake to go back on the gas.

so what extra brake stress? even more engine braking would have been applied by the downshift.



The driving style you describing means you come off the gas early, gear down, brake, gas ? What's the purpose of downshifting before braking ? To ensure you don't upset the car after braking ?

If so, the heel/toe method approaches it from a different angle.... clutching in/down shifting/braking/rev match at the same time so you slow, shift, blip all in the same time frame. This allows you to enter the corner at the fastest rate of travel while scrubbing off minimal speed. But IMO, it's a technique meant for the absolute fastest transition... if done at lower speeds, it's a bit risky and wasteful in many cases.

But it's a bit out of context as heel/toe cannot be used but in certain types of corners.


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wagonrunner
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:01 pm 
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X2 wrote:
wagonrunner wrote:
he had me wondering if he goes into the corner with both brake and clutch depressed..
if the racing adage of "you're either accelerating or braking" is used.
From the time you go on the brake, you should have already dropped the gear, and come off the clutch before you come off the brake to go back on the gas.
The driving style you describing means you come off the gas early, gear down, brake, gas ? What's the purpose of downshifting before braking ? To ensure you don't upset the car after braking ?

If so, the heel/toe method approaches it from a different angle.... clutching in/down shifting/braking/rev match at the same time so you slow, shift, blip all in the same time frame. This allows you to enter the corner at the fastest rate of travel while scrubbing off minimal speed. But IMO, it's a technique meant for the absolute fastest transition... if done at lower speeds, it's a bit risky and wasteful in many cases.

But it's a bit out of context as heel/toe cannot be used but in certain types of corners.

I was simplifying whats done in a race. accelerating or braking.
Both don't occur at the same time.
I'm not saying every time you mash brake you gear down.

I'm saying at a corner where your exit speed, would give you greater acceleration in a lower gear. It should be selected before you exit the corner.
Since braking and accelerating do no co-exist at the same time, and you have stopped accelerating since you mashed the brake already, that's a good time to downshift once you're in your speed / rpm range., because you will want that lower gears acceleration when you do come off the brake and go back on the gas.

I do maintain free-wheeling, while braking is rubbish. you call it balance, i call it control.
a free-wheeling car, and a car in a gear react very differently to any modulation of brake or gas especially in a corner.


So my next questions should be. let's say a 90km in. 45-60km out, narrowing turn............ do you do your gear change before the apex, or after the apex?
and are you on your brake before the apex, or after the apex?

with all the above said, i must admit it pertains mainly to my FWD experiences. My downshift points in RWD are a lot closer to the apex (still prior), than in a FWD.


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pete
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Only time I ever have to gear down at dex is through a slowwww hairpin. I have no idea what you guys are talking about :(


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wagonrunner
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:03 pm 
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pete wrote:
Only time I ever have to gear down at dex is through a slowwww hairpin. I have no idea what you guys are talking about :(

:mrgreen: thanks for reminding me to email vishnu some courses. maybe you'll get an idea what we mean. :twisted:


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foots
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:11 pm 
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chris1388 wrote:
foots wrote:
Nice thread. I woulda rel like to learn to heel toe downshift without blowing my gearbox.

I have a question i hope cud be answered too. Does a single clutch rev-matched downshift put any more strain on the gearbox than a double clutch rev-matched downshift?


To go back to 1st gear while in motion with the ignis you must learn to do this. If you come to the driving school I will explain it more to you, but the key with that is practice.....and not on the roads :lol: you will need an empty car park or something. But yes you do need to understand what you are doing before you attempt else you probably may damage the box.


Well I all but give up on double clutching into first with the ignis, the revs always drop too low and the car lurches. I yet to heel toe into first (true I frighten).....I go make sure I there on the 26th so I cud learn some tings man.


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MG Man
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:47 pm 
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ok this is how I approach it..........
I do all my braking before a corner, in a straight line (were possible)
My entry speed is the speed I carry into the corner, and the same speed I carry past the apex, ie no acceleration or deceleration once I enter the corner, just one constant
Once past the apex, as the car begins to straighten out of the corner, I begin unwinding the lock and begin accelerating, using the same gear I entered the corner with
Sometimes I will trail brake into the apex, but again no gear changing in the bend (don't wanna disengage the clutch while cornering, this upsets front / rear weight balance)

While braking, I do all my downshifting using the double clutch / heel and toe technique
In principle, when u release the clutch after a downshift, the revs should be exactly matched to the speed, ie the gear should not 'hold back' or induce engine braking, which slows the car and upsets the balance. The throttle blip ensures that when I release the clutch, I'm back in the powerband.........I blib in neutral with clutch released, to match engine and gearbox speed cuz my cars are old and it helps the gearchange, plus I like doing it


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chris1388
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:17 am 
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foots wrote:
chris1388 wrote:
foots wrote:
Nice thread. I woulda rel like to learn to heel toe downshift without blowing my gearbox.

I have a question i hope cud be answered too. Does a single clutch rev-matched downshift put any more strain on the gearbox than a double clutch rev-matched downshift?


To go back to 1st gear while in motion with the ignis you must learn to do this. If you come to the driving school I will explain it more to you, but the key with that is practice.....and not on the roads :lol: you will need an empty car park or something. But yes you do need to understand what you are doing before you attempt else you probably may damage the box.


Well I all but give up on double clutching into first with the ignis, the revs always drop too low and the car lurches. I yet to heel toe into first (true I frighten).....I go make sure I there on the 26th so I cud learn some tings man.


wha you mean the revs drop too low and it lurches? I will show you when I meet you.


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MG Man
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:54 pm 
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foots wrote:
Well I all but give up on double clutching into first with the ignis, the revs always drop too low and the car lurches. I yet to heel toe into first (true I frighten).....I go make sure I there on the 26th so I cud learn some tings man.



heel and toe double clutch downshifts take practice..u can't learn it in a few track days..........took me a few months of daily practice with the MG to get the whole thing down to a seamless half second

I started out doing it slowly during daily driving, every time I downshifted, gradually working on speed of the shift. The biggest challenge for me was blipping the throttle without inadvertently blipping the brake at the same time, especially during competition. The best technique for me in the MG was to roll my foot onto the gas pedal while on the brake, rather than use my heel. The pedals were close enough to allow that


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chris1388
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:16 pm 
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^^ good advice kevin that is what I do as well...i don't use my heel either


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