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SR
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:05 am 
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based on some of the posts being made here
it seems that the majority lack proper knowledge of sound and even the people selling and installing dont seem to know either

all these "verses" threads

and which one does sound better

to responses from shitty as "it go clap"
to the extreme technical cut and paste by others who trying to make an impression

this genertaion clearly lacks proper basic knowledge on what sound is really about
and unfortunalty the installers and competitors dont know either and in turn the younger generation is growing up beliving that what they are seeing and hearing is correct when in fact most sound like crap

from bass lines that cant accurately reproduce different bass notes to lack of clearly defined mid bass to screaming mids that are mostly distorted to lack of proper high freq response which are both distorted and cant produce frequencies above 10k


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- Rovin's car audio -
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:27 am 
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like i said numerous times b4:

in these modern times where everybody & their grand mother have access to in home internet so nowadays its so super easy for anybody to sit down home behind ur desk , on ur couch & or even on ur bed & just spend some time reading & educating urself on d basics & more advanced stuff

u dont have to go do a MCEP course or get a degree to learn about this , apart from reading there are also dozens of online car audio forums u can join or just look at what others do so u learn from seeing what they do & look at stuff on youtube too


i think alot of d vs threads are from those who choose not to read\learn & they just want ppl to tell them to use something loud , something to shake out their padna\rival\neighbor , just want others to make a choice for them or hopefully choose whichever 1 they had in mind so sometimes sarcastic responses are from those who see right through it or just simply fed up of seeing typical pioneer vs soundstream or M&M vs rcf type threads so they make a wise alec silly post ... :lol:


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Soundstream_626
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Agreed with Rovin, it`s a choice. But also from those who choose to learn, I think its where they get their learning material. Bad sources like some of the nonsense posted here on this forum and by the filth spewed by the outstallers whose agenda is just to turn a profit.

95 percent of Trinis think Louder = sounds better anyway, so sometimes practicality & logic go out the window.


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silent_riot
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:21 pm 
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You've already answered your question.

Here it is in one sentence: Installers and consumers are not interested in reproducing a musical performance properly, but only concerned with mimicking what they see in local car shows.


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Gladiator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:37 pm 
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I agree with the sentiments expressed here. Not only do these fellas not know about sound reproduction, but they have no idea of the damage they do to their hearing. It is a sensory ability that cannot be regenerated once lost.....

I think the majority of mis-information comes from so called "technicians" and "engineers" that offer advice to the masses, especially the ones who have a product to sell. I personally have tried educating people I know about quality sound and proper reproduction but the efforts are 99% futile, since they are only interested in getting the music to sound as loud as possible.

I am seeing links however with the flooding of crap equipment into the local market from importers that want to make a fast buck and the lack of education of the youth who just want to make noise, and if things go my way, we will be seeing measures being taken to ensure that equipment passes certain safety and performance tests before being sold in Trinidad. The CEA mark is being counterfeited and used to palm off rubbish on non-suspecting consumers.

On the positive side however, the SQ lanes of IASCA and MECA seem to have a new faces and interests and I believe that meets and shows have the potential to educate these youth about sound, its reproduction and listening pleasure...


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nareshseep
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Nah dread boss amp, pioneer champion series and emenence is all ya need

chuss meh.


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- Rovin's car audio -
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Gladiator

dude i hope u have court clothes & bullet proof vest eh cause when u step on some of dem fellers toes they not going to be too pleased about it ... :lol:


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evolution7tt
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:12 pm 
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I think this was/ is pretty evident as seen on 2nr and overheard in various shows.

Honestly, it's fighting a losing battle. The persons who make up the majority of the car audio scene do not WANT to learn the proper way. IASCA had competitor training a couple years back, a handful attended. The ICE club had test and tune events, that was also the same old crowd. Even MECA this year had a test and tune / workshop that was low in attendance.

But go a carshow, and every tom and beharry has an install that, to be honest, is rel mess. I have seen trunks where every single power wire is red, unfused and improperly terminated. I believe that silent riot knows the car in question.

I would refrain from commenting further because it would be offensive to many.


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pimptacular
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:17 pm 
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agreed but at the end of the day it comes down to loud and cheap... and everybody feel they know.. pro audio and trinidad has become synomious with one another.. hence rovin said a while back he would try to sell comps and coax but most people comes in asking for m&m and 18song..

also thats what the newer generation grow up seeing and knowing so what else you expect?


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nervewrecker
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:47 pm 
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*throws on flame suit*

Whats wrong with pro audio speakers? (well besides the obvious that it wasnt designed for the 'in car' environment).

If used properly they can sound pretty ok in a car. Aren't some of these same speakers systems used in 'DJ' systems and sound good? I believe its all in improper use.

I am bearing in mind you may not be able to achieve the same outcome as some of the competition true SQ vehicles but for a daily system that wants to get loud or a cross breed between daily & park and play one can get a pretty ok sounding system.

To me, its all about lack of knowledge about the products and how to use them as well as not knowing what a proper system should sound like.
Yes I am speaking from experience as I am one who started off with the belief that the ideal sound system was a pair of eminence, boss chaos 1000 watt 4 channel, a pair of pioneer 12", power acoustik pwm 20 and a pioneer head unit (dosent matter, as long as its a pioneer head unit). From taking the time to get some demos of the SQ systems out here I heard what I liked and further research into some of these systems revealed they can get pretty loud and still be clean sounding.
I say start from forgetting what every 'installer' at the side of the road has to say and do your own research, see what you like. If cockroach beating up in kilm pan sound is what you like then you have issues.


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ruffneck_12
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:57 pm 
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It's not an excuse to have a lack of knowledge these days with so much available on the internet

I got interested in audio around form 3 and I read every single article I could have gotten online
Read every possible thread in this forum
researched every single term I was unfamiliar with
read manuals for products I never owned/never will own
site hopped like hell
joined multiple forums
I actually tried to find port length by manually crunching the formula, doubt anyone wanna go thru all that stress


And I still er know everything yet

If it wasnt for bcae1.com , rovin, SR and others, I would be one of the ignorants :? Thank you

all ppl want nowadays is just handouts, dey dont like to work for anything
Just wanna know which one better, and not know why its better
============

btw, random question what will happen if you play some satanic death metal at a car show?


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SQ Audio
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:02 am 
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I have had experiences dealing with customers/ car audio enthusiasts who rightfully justify one of the primary reasons for using pro audio in cars. This reason is simply that speakers that are designed specifically for automotive use are simply not loud/ efficient enough. Not withstanding the fact that we may want our clients to appreciate better than average tonality/ staging etc we must acknowledge that Trinidadians are a dynamic party people. We want to be able to casually go on a Sunday evening drive and listen to our fine components, then stop off by a friend and use the very same vehicle as a dj setup at a bar b q lime.Customers who listened to my personal vehicle that is built as an average sq vehicle often then want the best of both worlds. The solution is simple...components in front and pro audio in the back with an adjustable fader on the preamp/hu. The customer can now appreciate better fine audio in car and also have his bang out session when necessary. I think that integrating pro-audio into car audio is not a bad idea based on the practicality of the system to its owner. I think that this method is one way of educating individuals, who may not be sq oriented, into the sweet world of sq.


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SR
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:16 am 
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this topic has nothing to do with chocie of speakers used aka one using pro audio speakers

its about the correct sound

so if one uses pro audio then do it right not halfway

keep discussion to the topic

poor education and lack of knowledge


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Brian Steele
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:08 am 
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SR wrote:
based on some of the posts being made here
it seems that the majority lack proper knowledge of sound and even the people selling and installing dont seem to know either


I'd say that the amount of knowledge has increased a little (year ago, I heard of a certain fellah who popped the dustcap off his sub and poured glue in because he thought that the cone was "moving too much"). But there's still a way to go. Too much focus on equipment, and not how best to use it. And unfortunately the "it's expensive so it must be good" approach to audio equipment remains the same.

A good discussion might be if the ready and easy access to the Internet that we enjoy these days has improved the level of knowledge or made it worse.


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hi rollaz
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:10 am 
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I don't think it's lack of knowledge or poor education, this day and age tom,dick and harry have music and it's a competition between each other, even youth with bicycle competing with each other for who is the loudest.
As one man change he system, the next guy change too, money build up again they change again, if you is the lucky installer to do the job well go with it, customer is always right and if you try to tell them something else they find someone else to do the job how they want.


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Gladiator
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:20 am 
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Another factor is the current mainstream genre of music and the recording/editing used. The "music" nowadays (Rap, Pop, Hip Hop, etc) are mixed without much dynamic range and focused on loudness more than anything. They mix in exaggerated bass notes and piercing high and mids... therefore reproduction in high quality does not matter.

Most SQ men I know listed to more 80's music, classical Jazz, Classic Rock, even classic Reggae.


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SQ Audio
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:35 pm 
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while the majority of customers do lack knowledge and education about the correct sound, education and knowledge about car audio is not something that everyone will set aside time to do research on. Customers are more receptive towards an installer going through the details of car audio and pro audio with them face to face rather than they have to go and do the research themselves. Wrt doing pro audio right and not half way, i am still of the opinion that you can kill two birds with one stone within an affordable budget. By introducing them to a simple 2 way component system up front, this essentially, raises their awareness to a better level of tonality etc. and hence educates the customer about the correct sound.


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- Rovin's car audio -
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:29 pm 
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now this thread is not about a sq vs gallery thing , each system has its purpose & place


hi rollaz wrote:
I don't think it's lack of knowledge or poor education, this day and age tom,dick and harry have music and it's a competition between each other, even youth with bicycle competing with each other for who is the loudest.
As one man change he system, the next guy change too, money build up again they change again, if you is the lucky installer to do the job well go with it, customer is always right and if you try to tell them something else they find someone else to do the job how they want.


^^^
some valid points there , in my store i have hear ppl ranging from adults to youths talking about these lil village or friendly padna against padna friday\saturday night sunday afternoon bangout sessions & they want to know what baseline , mids\highs or amp combo will bang out d reigning ranking man who has equipment x,y,z so they asking for LOUD equipment as their main concern , bear in mind they not asking anything freq range bandwidth or quality

these lil youths watching their elders going down this road & they at a young age blindly following , youths around 12yr old have come into my store asking for rcf or 18sound & pwm20 because that is what they hear d older guys & friends talking about & u can sense they actually know little about d equipment but that is what they want & they buying it too .... these young guys saving up their daily school allowance to buy music equipment even if to put it on a bicycle , wheel barrow , cart , under their house or in their bedroom so d blaring loud music thing starting up from a early age


that is also true about installers sometimes have to do what customers want , if d customer bring a 880prs deck , pwm20 & a boss cross & insist they want it installed together even though u explain to them well u either do it or refuse to do d job & that person simply goes right down d road to some other guy who will hook it up with no questions asked


on another note , there really are alot of ppl\customers who u can tell they not too much into car audio so they know very little & as a store owner u often have to keep explaining stuff to ppl - i already have plans to put up a board on 1 of d walls with some basic info on it like ohms , sub wiring configuration , freq bandwidth , size of wire & fuse recommendations etc ...


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nervewrecker
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:20 pm 
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Lets not turn it into a vs thread please. I like both systems anyways.


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SQ Audio
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:22 pm 
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Agreed.


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GVTrini07
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:32 am 
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- If you have not heard better, how do you know it sounds terrible?
- Lack of interest to read, search, understand and make your own assessment
- Lack of people directing you properly when asking (what they term as the stupid, answered already, here we go again) questions.
- Taking the stupid (only available) advise, cause your not getting any answers to above.
- "Looking at the Jones" Well he running this and running that, so that is what I want! No knowledge on prep, install and tuning.
- Frequency? Wah is dat?
- Model? Wah is dat? Well ah have ah Eminence and ah 18 Sounds, Dai wah yuh talking bout?
- Midbass? Wah is dat? Ent meh 6NDXXX does play that?

Then there are the people who are just ingnorant and think your talking bull, cause they uncle, fada nenen telling them, boy wah chipid ness you doing. Ent ah tell yuh all yuh need is this n dat and yuh good!

- Culture. Something which is most difficult to change, once it gets a footing. It will take triple the time, perseverance and dedication to clean up the mess which has been allowed to be created. (Yes Created).


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meccalli
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:12 am 
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I think i can consider myself a part of the new generation at my age, but i have to agree that most* of teh guys i see are concerned with getting loud at the expense of every and anything else. When i put together a system for a friend of mine, i bought the 7ch amp from rovin, threw in polk db coaxes and a w1. The system was well balanced, economical and sounded great..also plenty loud for inside. Not that i'm against comp cars or spl guys, but *think* for once when you put together something. I've personally grown so disinterested in car audio now, i've cut it off completely and focused on my house system where i can enjoy some Diana Krall and Pink Floyd the way its supposed to be.


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shake d livin wake d dead
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:49 am 
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viewtopic.php?f=3&t=413302&hilit=louder
reminds me of this thread and the weird responses


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evolution7tt
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:39 am 
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Honestly, I don't see anything strange about those replies you got. They are quite valid for the question put forward.


GVTrini07 wrote:
- If you have not heard better, how do you know it sounds terrible?

No knowledge on prep, install and tuning.


- Culture. Something which is most difficult to change, once it gets a footing. It will take triple the time, perseverance and dedication to clean up the mess which has been allowed to be created.


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shake d livin wake d dead
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:57 am 
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evolution7tt wrote:
Honestly, I don't see anything strange about those replies you got. They are quite valid for the question put forward.


GVTrini07 wrote:
- If you have not heard better, how do you know it sounds terrible?

No knowledge on prep, install and tuning.


- Culture. Something which is most difficult to change, once it gets a footing. It will take triple the time, perseverance and dedication to clean up the mess which has been allowed to be created.


the louder=better :? why?


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nigel1977
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Last time I brought this up was abt 5 years ago.

Guess what. Its a lot worse now.

"Outstallers" outnumber Installers 30 to 1.

Dont know the difference...then you know which side of the fence you are standing on.


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OffshoreMarketing
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:55 pm 
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i would say some do but alot dont...recently met up wit a guy who owns his own audio installation store wont call names but cud not do the simple math to wire up four subs...if you ask me thats basic information when starting to learn about car audio ...series and parallel...if u cant even guess properly here then i don't think u wanna talk about proper freq response tuning etc...


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SR
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:12 pm 
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and there in lies one of the major problems

everyone is an installer..................or sales person n car audio

all looking for a quick buck but havent a clue to the basics and all get defensive when you try to correct them

the other problem is the consumer is always looking for a good deal and expect eveyone knows what they are doing and man can easily be fooled by the installer/sales rattling off some technical jargon that even they dont know what it means but makes the consumer belive that they do

sadly i keep saying it many of them are here on this website preying on unsuspecting consumers


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- Rovin's car audio -
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:31 pm 
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GVTrini07 - those are some good solids points u made there

some of them do not even know that there is such a thing as stereo , midbass or low freq bass in music & some of them anytime they see + & - terminals on speaker\s they just connect all + together & all d - together & when d amp tripping off or burnt they brakesing & doing like is d amp fault not them or just willy nilly turning up ever settings on d deck\preamp\processor\amp


having a booming loud system is very popular with youths coming up so "car audio installation shops" opening all over as much as chinese food places

anybody who can hook up a deck or amp & assemble some mdf to make a box opening shop in every village & they get customers who live nearby too since they located right there down road , ppl who new into it & dont know better going by these shops & whatever equipment recommended & how its installed d customer say they got a pro to do it so they gone home thinking they got it done right & its sounding good but if somebody who knows better sees it & takes a listen will wonder


on d other hand - even if u buy ur music from a reputable shop & gone by a reputable installer that still doesnt always necessarily mean u going to get it installed properly

i have heard some true stories of ppl who bought equipment costing over a 100k gone by big name installers who charging big $ too & doing real mess with d same good equipment & when d owner hears how somebody else with a system costing d same or less $ sounding better than their's get real turned off from d car audio scene & even drop out of it totally since they thought they spend so much $$$ & went by xyz good installer & end up still get something that shud have been sounding better than what it is

as a consumer u shud make it ur right to do some reading & research b4 u go into any store to buy anything or have it hooked up & not just take d seller's\installers word wholesale .... :|


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nemesis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:47 pm 
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In a word. Yes.
I believe people do lack "proper" knowledge. While I do agree that the internet is great for learning about things it spawns some major problems :
1. Everyone thinks they are an expert.
2. Many believe everything works exactly as it does in theory. Though many times it will, or at least get you very close, when aiming for proper sound, you need to know what that sound is. As mentioned above, how do you know better if you never heard better?

If anyone disagrees with that, pick a competition and someone that knows nothing about it, give them all the literature you can find, and see if they win everything hands down every time. Will not happen. Might get closer than the completely uneducated, but won't actually happen.
This is where making the effort to learn matters. Need to attend competitions, learn what makes a difference, what works, what doesn't, what it sounds like when it's right etc. Don't even have to actually compete to start learning. Just have to put in some extra effort.

But in the end, all that matters to most people is who is louder outside the rum shop or at the beach etc. And the known solution to that is add more of whatever you can find and fit in the car.
The problem isn't just the lack of knowledge, that can be fixed. It's the lack of wanting that knowledge that's the real problem.


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