The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

Kind words and forgiving of faults are better than Sadaqah (CHARITY) followed by injury. And Allah is Rich (Free of all needs) and He is Most-Forbearing.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #263)

O you who believe! Do not render in vain your Sadaqah (CHARITY) by reminders of your generosity or by injury, like him who spends his wealth to be seen of men, and he does not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day. His likeness is the likeness of a smooth rock on which is a little dust; on it falls heavy rain which leaves it bare. They are not able to do anything with what they have earned. And Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #264)

And if the debtor is in a hard time (has no money), then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay, but if you remit it by way of CHARITY, that is better for you if you did but know.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #280)

And We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of CHARITY, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers - of a lesser degree).
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #45)

Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) to 'Ibadi (My slaves) who have believed, that they should perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat ), and spend in CHARITY out of the sustenance We have given them, secretly and openly, before the coming of a Day on which there will be neither mutual bargaining nor befriending.
( سورة إبراهيم , Ibrahim, Chapter #14, Verse #31)

And that which you give in gift (to others), in order that it may increase (your wealth by expecting to get a better one in return) from other people's property, has no increase with Allah; but that which you give in Zakat (sadaqa - CHARITY etc.) seeking Allah's Countenance, then those, they shall have manifold increase.
( سورة الروم , Ar-Room, Chapter #30, Verse #39)

Those who are misers and enjoin upon people miserliness - (Allah is not in need of their CHARITY). And whosoever turns away (from Faith - Allah's Monotheism), then Allah is Rich (Free of all needs), Worthy of all praise.
( سورة الحديد , Al-Hadid, Chapter #57, Verse #24)

And spend (in CHARITY) of that with which We have provided you before death comes to one of you, and he says: "My Lord! If only You would give me respite for a little while (i.e. return to the worldly life), then I should give Sadaqah (i.e. Zakat ) of my wealth, and be among the righteous [i.e. perform Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) and other good deeds].
( سورة المنافقون , Al-Munafiqoon, Chapter #63, Verse #10)

Verily, your Lord knows that you do stand (to pray at night) a little less than two thirds of the night, or half the night, or a third of the night, and also a party of those with you. And Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that you are unable to pray the whole night, so He has turned to you (in mercy). So, recite you of the Qur'an as much as may be easy for you. He knows that there will be some among you sick, others travelling through the land, seeking of Allah's Bounty, yet others fighting in Allah's Cause. So recite as much of the Qur'an as may be easy (for you), and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat ) and give Zakat, and lend to Allah a goodly loan. And whatever good you send before you for yourselves (i.e. Nawafil non-obligatory acts of worship: prayers, CHARITY, fasting, Hajj and 'Umrah), you will certainly find it with Allah, better and greater in reward. And seek Forgiveness of Allah. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most-Merciful .
( سورة المزمل , Al-Muzzammil, Chapter #73, Verse #20)

[AdamB]

ok im just trying to understand this but im getting more confused

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(john 1:1)

after that this happoned

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
can you agree about who Jesus really is now?

so acording to the bible: god transformed in to jesus or did he create jesus???
then if jesus was created that would mean he is not god or 1 out of 3 or part of god

can someone help me out here???

it is very true to say that if Jesus was created he is not God but Jesus is the logos (the word ) that existed with God from the beginning, begotten not made...... He then added humanity to himself

dspike also said


"The Son,
Eternally begotten of the Father,
Begotten, not made.
Of one in being with the Father
Through Him, all things were made..."
"The Holy Spirit,
proceeds from the Father and the Son..."

There is more that can (and should be) explained, but I will stop at this point for your feedback... and for certain others to lob their rotten fruit...

_________________
Big red rice-eater
Post subject: Re: The Religion Discussion
Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:07 am

but from what i understand and know,the word "Begotten" has been remove by most high ranking scholars of Christianity because they believe it was fabricated
for example u will not find that word in the following bibles: New International Version,New Living Translation,English Standard Version,International Standard Version and alot more
anyway the point im makeing is this,we all believe god has no beginning or end, so that would mean god was there before the beginning and if so, it is right to say that everything in and after the beginning was created or made which leads up to, if jesus was created that would mean he is not god or 1 out of 3 or part of god

i would like to know ya'll thoughts on this

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Please note, these are not the words of Jesus. They are the words of John (or whoever wrote them). Acknowledged by every erudite Christian scholar of the Bible as being the words of another Jew, Philo of Alexandria, who had written them even before John and Jesus were born And Phil claimed no divine inspiration for them. No matter what mystical meaning that Philo had woven around these words (which our John has plagiarised) we will accept them for what they are worth.

GREEK NOT HEBREW
Since the manuscripts of the 27 Books of the New Testament are in Greek, a Christian sect has produced its own version and has even changed the name of this selection of 27 Books to "CHRISTIAN GREEK SCRIPTURES"! I asked the Reverend whether he knew Greek? "Yes," he said, He had studied Greek for 5 years before qualification . I asked him what was the Greek Word for "GOD" the first time it occurs in the quotation - "and the Word was with God"? He kept staring, but didn't answer. So I said, the word was HOTHEOS, which literally means "THE GOD". Since the Europen (in cluding the North American) has evolved a system of using capital letter to start a proper noun and small letters for common nouns, we would accept his giving a capital "G" for God; in other words HOTHEOS is rendered "the god" which in turn is rendered - God.

"Now tell me, what is the Greek word for God in the second occurrence in your quotation - "and the Word was God"? The Reverend still kept silent. Not that he did not know Greek, or that he had lied - But, he knew more than that, the game was up. I said the word was TONTHEOS, which means "a god".

According to your own system of translating you aught to have spelt this word God a second time with a small "g" i.e. god, and not God with a capital "G"; in other words TONTHEOS is rendered "a god". Both of these, "god" or "a god" are correct.

I told the Reverend "But in 2 Corinthians 4:4 you have dishonestly reversed your system by using a small "g" when spelling GOD - "(and the devil is) the god of this world." The Greek word for "the god" is HOTHEOS the same as in John 1:1. "Why have you not been consistent in your translation?" "If Paul was inspired (?) to write hotheos - the God for the Devil, why begrudge him that capital 'G'?"

And in the Old Testament, the Lord said unto Moses, "See, I have made thee a god to Pharoach"(Exodus 7:1). "Why do you use a small "g" for "GOD" when referring to Moses instead of a capital "G" as you do for a mere word - 'WORD' - "and the Word was God."?

"Why do you do this? Why do you play fast and loose with the Word of - God ?" I asked the reverend. He said, "I didn't do it." I said, "I know, but I am talking about the vested interests of Christianity,who are hell bent to deify Christ, by using capital letters here and small letters there, to deceive the unwary masses who think that every letter, every comma and full stop and the capital and small letters were dictated by God."

by Ahmad Deedat

[turbohead]

My Christian friends,
Can you identify which branch of christianity you subscribe to?

http://islamic-invitation.com/images/all-christian.jpg

AdamB which Islamic sect do you subscribe to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sc ... d_branches

bro once yuh follow a imam of school of thought in islam you are a sunni, but dont be 2 or 3 at teh same time. follow one so that you would not confuse yourself, in trinidad majority follow the imam Hanafi school of thought.
the shia, kadiani, ahmadiyyah and all other are deviated sects and considered out the fold of islam...

wrt sufism it is the spiritual aspect of islam and whereby one cannot be a sufi and not be a sunni... it is a higher attained spiritual essence in islam through the controlled chain of order and permissions in spiritual aspects...

[AdamB]

My Christian friends,
Can you identify which branch of christianity you subscribe to?

http://islamic-invitation.com/images/all-christian.jpg

AdamB which Islamic sect do you subscribe to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sc ... d_branches

bro once yuh follow a imam of school of thought in islam you are a sunni, but dont be 2 or 3 at teh same time. follow one so that you would not confuse yourself, in trinidad majority follow the imam Hanafi school of thought.
the shia, kadiani, ahmadiyyah and all other are deviated sects and considered out the fold of islam...

wrt sufism it is the spiritual aspect of islam and whereby one cannot be a sufi and not be a sunni... it is a higher attained spiritual essence in islam through the controlled chain of order and permissions in spiritual aspects...

My dear brother in Islam,
I call upon you to educate yourself concerning the truth and reality of Sufism, that it is not from the Sunnah of the messenger of Allah, neither is it from his companions. If it was, they would have been the foremost to practise it and establish it in the deen. However, this is certainly not the case. May Allah, the Most High, guide you to see the truth of this matter with clarity, that it is a Bid'ah, an innovation in Islam.
Please check out the following as well as the links to documents / books written on this important subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... OHmw2GqrFc

Sufism is not from Islam
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (hafithahuAllah)
Translated by Rasheed ibn Estes ibn Estes Barbee
Presented to you by Markaz Tawheed was-Sunnah in Durham, NC
http://mtws.posterous.com

Questioner:

What is the ruling in Islam concerning Sufism?

Shaykh Fawzan:

Sufism, there is no Sufism in Islam, this is an innovation. Sufism is an innovation, it is not from Islam.

Thus it is upon those who have fallen into Sufism to repent to Allah the Exalted.

And it is upon them to return to the Sunnah.

And it is upon them to return to that which the pious predecessors were upon from uprightness and firmness upon the Deen of Allah and following the Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah are upon him, and following the rightly guided successors.

This is the pure unadulterated methodology.

The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings are upon him said:

This nation will divide into seventy three sects all of them will be in the fire except one. They said: Who are they oh Messenger of Allah? He replied: Those who are upon what I and my companions are upon.

Thus there is no safety and security except by following the Minhaj of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings are upon, him and his companions.

And Sufism is not from the Minhaj of the Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah are upon him, and it is not from the Minhaj of his companions, and it is not from the Minhaj of the virtuous generations; rather it is something newly invented in Islam.

And it (Sufism) contains a great deal of deviations; some of which contains grave worship and shirk with Allah the Exalted and belief in the dead.

Thus Sufism also contains polytheism.


http://abdurrahman.org/innovation/meean ... ufism.html
http://abdurrahman.org/innovation/Sufis ... opment.pdf
http://abdurrahman.org/innovation/there ... sufism.pdf

[dnoah]

An analogy can be examined - how was the first man, Adam (not AdamB) created? GOD created and moulded him with HIS (GOD's) HANDS. How then did he, Adam, come to life? Was not a spirit (the soul) breathed (or however it was put) into him? Did this spirit emanate FROM GOD? If YES, then can we say that Adam is also the SON of GOD. If not, then the spirit came FROM GOD, belonging to HIM, but not a part of HIM. So, therefore Adam is also NOT GOD, just like Jesus!! Is MY logic making sense here?

watch nah,i never think of it this way and your logic making sense
ah wish ah could of add to it but u said it all and there is no one that can refute this

[sMASH]

i can't believe i did not hit the 'enter' button.
so far the person of the son, or the word is to god like a reflection is to an object. it does not exist without its originator. it is the 'love' of god embodied...

am i with u so far?

[AdamB]

i can't believe i did not hit the 'enter' button.
so far the person of the son, or the word is to god like a reflection is to an object. it does not exist without its originator. it is the 'love' of god embodied...

am i with u so far?

Who created the mirror that has the power to duplicate GOD and where does this sequence of "assumptions" come from? I have asked dspike but no answers as yet! Ah talking 'bout source of knowledge nah cause it surely ain't logical! Spikey, the name/s of the relevant Christian scholar/s and link to their works / documents / website. If I try to do it myself, I may select the wrong interpretation, but as Duane put it the burden of proof is on the one making the claim!

Why not is the mirror also a god?

[MG Man]

An analogy can be examined - how was the first man, Adam (not AdamB) created? GOD created and moulded him with HIS (GOD's) HANDS. How then did he, Adam, come to life? Was not a spirit (the soul) breathed (or however it was put) into him? Did this spirit emanate FROM GOD? If YES, then can we say that Adam is also the SON of GOD. If not, then the spirit came FROM GOD, belonging to HIM, but not a part of HIM. So, therefore Adam is also NOT GOD, just like Jesus!! Is MY logic making sense here?

watch nah,i never think of it this way and your logic making sense
ah wish ah could of add to it but u said it all and there is no one that can refute this

buh ent adamb say god have no form?
whey he get hads from to mold he lil mudman?

[RBphoto]

An analogy can be examined - how was the first man, Adam (not AdamB) created? GOD created and moulded him with HIS (GOD's) HANDS. How then did he, Adam, come to life? Was not a spirit (the soul) breathed (or however it was put) into him? Did this spirit emanate FROM GOD? If YES, then can we say that Adam is also the SON of GOD. If not, then the spirit came FROM GOD, belonging to HIM, but not a part of HIM. So, therefore Adam is also NOT GOD, just like Jesus!! Is MY logic making sense here?

watch nah,i never think of it this way and your logic making sense
ah wish ah could of add to it but u said it all and there is no one that can refute this

buh ent adamb say god have no form?
whey he get hads from to mold he lil mudman?

So it is safe to say that Allah touched Adam's penis and rolled up his nuts..... does that make him gay? Jussayin....

[16 cycles]

creationism vs evolution argument wasn't many pages ago?

[MG Man]

I not debating that.............I jus wanna know how allah formed man with his own hands, when adamb say allah haz no form.........and drillos raised an intriguing queestion re rollation of teh penola

[sMASH]

i can't believe i did not hit the 'enter' button.
so far the person of the son, or the word is to god like a reflection is to an object. it does not exist without its originator. it is the 'love' of god embodied...

am i with u so far?

Who created the mirror that has the power to duplicate GOD and where does this sequence of "assumptions" come from? I have asked dspike but no answers as yet! Ah talking 'bout source of knowledge nah cause it surely ain't logical! Spikey, the name/s of the relevant Christian scholar/s and link to their works / documents / website. If I try to do it myself, I may select the wrong interpretation, but as Duane put it the burden of proof is on the one making the claim!

Why not is the mirror also a god?

i am not in a debating mode right now. i was involved in most of this thread's 'debates'. right now, i just want to know what others think. i know what i think already. i on just plain ole 'get to know your neighbor scenes'.

think about it like history on school. i not goin to change any of it, i just want to learn what went on. if it say is so, then that is what they say.

[AdamB]

Please point out where I said that Allah had no form.
If I did I apologize, for I certainly made a mistake or was temporarily insane or expressed it in a manner that led you to this misguided inference. I said we only say about Allah that which HE had informed us about HIMSELF.
Allah has a form and is not "here, there and everywhere". I am not on my computer, so will post the proof later. That's how I operate / how Islam has been established - ON EVIDENCE. No wishy washy farfetched hypotheses!

[Chimera]

So it is safe to say that Allah touched Adam's penis and rolled up his nuts..... does that make him gay? Jussayin....

[RBphoto]

Please point out where I said that Allah had no form.

So you sayin he have real forms den... *1wink*

[turbohead]

My Christian friends,
Can you identify which branch of christianity you subscribe to?

http://islamic-invitation.com/images/all-christian.jpg

AdamB which Islamic sect do you subscribe to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sc ... d_branches

bro once yuh follow a imam of school of thought in islam you are a sunni, but dont be 2 or 3 at teh same time. follow one so that you would not confuse yourself, in trinidad majority follow the imam Hanafi school of thought.
the shia, kadiani, ahmadiyyah and all other are deviated sects and considered out the fold of islam...

wrt sufism it is the spiritual aspect of islam and whereby one cannot be a sufi and not be a sunni... it is a higher attained spiritual essence in islam through the controlled chain of order and permissions in spiritual aspects...

My dear brother in Islam,
I call upon you to educate yourself concerning the truth and reality of Sufism, that it is not from the Sunnah of the messenger of Allah, neither is it from his companions. If it was, they would have been the foremost to practise it and establish it in the deen. However, this is certainly not the case. May Allah, the Most High, guide you to see the truth of this matter with clarity, that it is a Bid'ah, an innovation in Islam.
Please check out the following as well as the links to documents / books written on this important subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... OHmw2GqrFc

Sufism is not from Islam
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (hafithahuAllah)
Translated by Rasheed ibn Estes ibn Estes Barbee
Presented to you by Markaz Tawheed was-Sunnah in Durham, NC
http://mtws.posterous.com

Questioner:

What is the ruling in Islam concerning Sufism?

Shaykh Fawzan:

Sufism, there is no Sufism in Islam, this is an innovation. Sufism is an innovation, it is not from Islam.

Thus it is upon those who have fallen into Sufism to repent to Allah the Exalted.

And it is upon them to return to the Sunnah.

And it is upon them to return to that which the pious predecessors were upon from uprightness and firmness upon the Deen of Allah and following the Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah are upon him, and following the rightly guided successors.

This is the pure unadulterated methodology.

The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings are upon him said:

This nation will divide into seventy three sects all of them will be in the fire except one. They said: Who are they oh Messenger of Allah? He replied: Those who are upon what I and my companions are upon.

Thus there is no safety and security except by following the Minhaj of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings are upon, him and his companions.

And Sufism is not from the Minhaj of the Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah are upon him, and it is not from the Minhaj of his companions, and it is not from the Minhaj of the virtuous generations; rather it is something newly invented in Islam.

And it (Sufism) contains a great deal of deviations; some of which contains grave worship and shirk with Allah the Exalted and belief in the dead.

Thus Sufism also contains polytheism.


http://abdurrahman.org/innovation/meean ... ufism.html
http://abdurrahman.org/innovation/Sufis ... opment.pdf
http://abdurrahman.org/innovation/there ... sufism.pdf

bro no offense but i think you should really expand and get proofs from credible ulema with permission in their education from the teachers that lead straight back to the pinnacle foundation of islam... these youtube sheiks you dealing wit that read a book and deducing from there own capacity is not in rank with the likes of Shayk abdul qadir jalani, Imam ahmad raza khan, Imam ghazali, may Allah bless their souls... for they were jus a few of the leading ulema that set the pace for us in islam, if you could find any "maulana" that could refute our ulema of the present times like Shayk habib ali jifri, Imam khalid hussain, Shayk ninowi, Shayk yacoubi and countless others i would consider taking your ruthless claims on, you fellas should stick to wat yuh good at and leave which doesnt concern you when you go with half truths and inuendos.... i pm'ed you so that i wouldnt have to deal wit you on the forum but yuh pushing yuh luck and making an ass out of yourself.. if you choose to follow the likes of abdul wahab of najd then i suggest you dont dive into topics that you dont know about.

[d spike]

An analogy can be examined - how was the first man, Adam (not AdamB) created? GOD created and moulded him with HIS (GOD's) HANDS. How then did he, Adam, come to life? Was not a spirit (the soul) breathed (or however it was put) into him? Did this spirit emanate FROM GOD? If YES, then can we say that Adam is also the SON of GOD. If not, then the spirit came FROM GOD, belonging to HIM, but not a part of HIM. So, therefore Adam is also NOT GOD, just like Jesus!! Is MY logic making sense here?

watch nah,i never think of it this way and your logic making sense
ah wish ah could of add to it but u said it all and there is no one that can refute this

dnoah, there is nothing to refute here. AdamB's premise is based on God creating the object being discussed. Adam, like all men, are PART of God's Creation. He is a Creature.
Christians believe that Jesus IS God - not a part of God's Creation.
AdamB's argument does not apply to Christian beliefs. His argument is based on the Islamic belief that Jesus was not God.
His argument is just the same as those who thought the world was flat, and rightly considered sailing towards the horizon as dangerous as one could sail over the edge.

[dnoah]

buh ent adamb say god have no form?
whey he get hads from to mold he lil mudman?

well i know that question was not directed at me but i would just like to share my views on what i know and what i believe on the forms of god

we all know that god loves us but we can't say what he love with or if he has a heart
we all know that god see us but we don't know what he see with
we all know that god can give or take but what can we say about his hands

what im saying is, god did not inform us so we don't know and no one has the right to make thing up about god because u would be lieing on god

i will list some forms of god that people believe in and worship
1)god came in the form of burning bushes to moses
2)god came in the form of a bird when jesus got baptize
3)god came in the form of a man to die for our sins
4) also in the form of a spirt and alot more

so how come no one worships fire or a bird? is it because forms of god are not to be worship or people just choose which form's they like. maybe there are form of god
but
everyone know's there is only one god,so its time we forget about the forms and worship the one and only god

Malachi 3:6 I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

[d spike]

i can't believe i did not hit the 'enter' button.
so far the person of the son, or the word is to god like a reflection is to an object. it does not exist without its originator.
am i with u so far?

Yes, quite right.
Just remember, that the image is perfect itself, so it is no mere "reflection".

Who created the mirror that has the power to duplicate GOD

Why not is the mirror also a god?

I explained it was but an analogy. Do you have no idea what "idea" or "concept" means?
The "image" is a way of explaining the self-concept of God.

and where does this sequence of "assumptions" come from?

It's called 'Theology', my dear uneducated friend. Perhaps if you would care to attempt looking it up in ANY encyclopaedia, or even "google" it, you would easily get an answer.

I have asked dspike but no answers as yet! Ah talking 'bout source of knowledge nah cause it surely ain't logical!

Be wary in exposing your ignorance in public. It will only lead to embarrassment. This "sequence of assumptions" is older than Islam, and has been accepted by scholars for centuries. Use your brain. This obviously means you just need to peruse the writings of theologians who lived before 600 A.D., and discussed the Trinity.
If you are not even capable of recognizing or researching with this extremely narrowed field, then I doubt you will be capable of discussing this matter at the level these goodly gentlemen did.

Spikey, the name/s of the relevant Christian scholar/s and link to their works / documents / website.

For more than a thousand years these gentlemen and their writings were well-respected, even revered, in the educated world.
It is not my fault that you don't know of them, or that you might wrongly interpret their essays - which have been understood and debated by learned folk for hundreds of years...

If you don't care for Bach or Beethoven's music, it just means you never educated your taste... not that their music is old-fashioned.

[Red Fraction]

^ just trying to understand what you posted... why do you think God wants us to repent?

Umm God wants us to repent and turn to him because he wants to save us. When Adam sinned and God came looking for him in the garden, it's not that he didnt know where he was. he was referring spiritually to Adam when he said "Adam where art thou
" meaning where are you in relation to me? Where is your innocence? Where is your spirit Adam?

He wants us to come back to him so he can save us and restore to us what Adam had before he sinned.

[Red Fraction]

The intention of GOD was to make man a people who would commit sins, so that by seeking GOD's forgiveness and asking for HIM to accept our repentance


Adamb......... That extract above from your post is most misleading and is an attack on Gods character. How can you say God intent was to make man who would commit sin??

That's like saying God destroys and kills smh.
I really wish you would desist from making God out to be a selfish tyrant who revels in seeing humans suffer.

[Red Fraction]

man + logic / God = fail
Man + faith * God = pass

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Jussaying

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

man + logic / God = fail
Man + faith * God = pass

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Jussaying

so you are saying do not use logic?

[AdamB]

An analogy can be examined - how was the first man, Adam (not AdamB) created? GOD created and moulded him with HIS (GOD's) HANDS. How then did he, Adam, come to life? Was not a spirit (the soul) breathed (or however it was put) into him? Did this spirit emanate FROM GOD? If YES, then can we say that Adam is also the SON of GOD. If not, then the spirit came FROM GOD, belonging to HIM, but not a part of HIM. So, therefore Adam is also NOT GOD, just like Jesus!! Is MY logic making sense here?

watch nah,i never think of it this way and your logic making sense
ah wish ah could of add to it but u said it all and there is no one that can refute this

buh ent adamb say god have no form?
whey he get hads from to mold he lil mudman?

The Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’ has reviewed the translation of the Fatwa request as well as the reply published in the monthly Madinah Magazine issued from Dacca in Bengalese, fifth issue, 35th year, August 1999, corresponding to Rabi` II, 1420. The question submitted by a member of the Bengalese community in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia states: We used to believe that Allah exists everywhere and that He is Imageless. However, here in Saudi Arabia in a cooperation bureau a Bengalese translator delivered a lecture in which he stated that Allah (may He be Exalted) does not exist everywhere and that He is described as having a Hand, an Eye, and other Attributes. He further claimed that anyone who does not believe as such is a disbeliever. My question is: What is your opinion in this regard? Please explain it in the light of the Qur’an and Sunnah.

The reply(in Madinah Magazine) from Decca was as follows: Anyone who believes in such claims is either intensely ignorant, mad, or even a member of a deviant sect. Actually, Allah (may He be Exalted) is Imageless and exists everywhere and in everything and His Omnipotence encompasses all things. Moreover, Allah (may He be Exalted) has been described as such in many Ayahs as well as in many Hadith. Therefore, you should pay no attention to such nonsense so that you may not corrupt your Iman. This was the end of the reply.

Reply by Permanent Committee of Scholars:-
This reply is groundless and opposes the Qur’an, Sunnah, Ijma’, and sound ‘Aqidah as it indicates belief in Hulul (a Sufi term meaning indwelling) which means that Allah dwells everywhere even in dirty places (Exalted be He far above any such thing). The reply also involves denying some of Allah’s Attributes wherewith He has described Himself and His Messenger (peace be upon him) has described Him, i.e. being High above His Creatures, rising over His ‘Arsh (Throne), being Distinct from His Creation, and being Incomparable in any respect to His Creatures. It also involves denying the fact that Allah is described as having a Hand, a Foot, a Leg, a Face, two Hands, two Eyes, and other Attributes related to His Self and Actions as proved by the Qur’an and Sunnah.
Allah (may He be Exalted) says: (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2: 255) And He is the Most High, the Most Great. He (may He be Exalted) also says:(Surah Al-Mulk, 67: 16-17) Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allýh), will not cause the earth to sink with you, and then it should quake? Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allýh), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Do not you trust me though I am the trustworthy person of the One in the Heavens?” Moreover, Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah TaýHa, 20: 5) The Most Gracious (Allýh) rose over (Istawý) the (Mighty) Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). The same fact is stressed in seven places in the Qur’an.

Furthermore, He (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Rahman, 55: 27) And the Face of your Lord full of Majesty and Honour will remain forever. He (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Qasas, 28: 88) Everything will perish except His Face.

Addressing Iblis (Satan), Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Sad, 38: 75) What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. He (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Ma’idah, 5: 64) Nay, both His Hands are widely outstretched.

In the same regard, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The people will be thrown into the Fire and it will keep on saying, ýIs there any more?ý until the Lord of the worlds puts His Foot over it.” According to another narration of the Hadith, he (peace be upon him) said: …His Foot over it, whereupon its different sides will come close to each other, and it will say: Enough! Enough!”

To the same effect, Allah (may He be Exalted) says to Musa (Moses – peace be upon him):(Surah TaýHa, 20: 39) In order that you may be brought up under My Eye. Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Qamar, 54: 14) Floating under Our Eyes. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Your Lord is not one-eyed.”

In the same context, Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Qalam, 68: 42) (Remember) the Day when the Shin shall be laid bare (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) and they shall be called to prostrate themselves (to Allýh), but they (hypocrites, and those who pray to show off or to gain good reputation) shall not be able to do so. The Prophet (peace be upon him) interpreted the Ayah to mean that Allah (may He be Exalted) will uncover His Shin on the Day of Resurrection whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him out of reverence and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but they will not be able to do so.

In the same context, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I saw my Lord (may He be Glorified and Exalted) in the best ýýýý Soorah (form).”[1] He also said: “Allah created Adam in the ýýýý Soorah(Image) of The Most Beneficent.”[2] This is in addition to many Nusus (Islamic texts from the Qurýan or the Sunnah) including Allah’s Attributes.

Ahl-ul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah (those adhering to the Sunnah and the Muslim main body) believe in these Attributes and confirm their indications without Tashbih (comparison) or Tamthil (likening Allah’s Attributes to those of His Creation). Allah (may He be Exalted) says:(Surah Al-Shura, 42: 11) There is nothing like Him; and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.

The Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’ in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia after stating such facts, deems it obligatory for the editor-in-chief of the monthly Madinah Magazine issued from Dacca, Bangladesh, Shaykh Muhiy Al-Din Khan, to publish this Fatwa and demand the person who replied to the Fatwa request to retract his allegations and declare his retraction in the same magazine. In fact, it is virtuous to admit the truth, which is the goal of the believers. Admitting the truth guides the people to the truth and distracts them from falsehood. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If anyone calls others to follow right guidance, his reward will be equivalent to those who follow him (in righteousness) until the Day of Resurrection without their reward being diminished in any respect, and if anyone invites others to follow error, the sin will be equivalent to that of the people who follow him (in sinfulness) until the Day of Resurrection without their sins being diminished in any respect.”

May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!

Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’ consisting of
Shaykh Abdul Azeez aal-shaykh
Shaykh Abdullah al-Ghudayyan
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan
Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd

Footnotes:-
[1]Reported in Musnad Ahmed, Sunan at-Tirmidhi & others.
[2]Reported in Asma wa Sifaat of al-Bayhaqee, Al-Kabeer of at-Tabarani, Al-Sifaat of Daraqtuni, At-Tawheed of Ibn Khuzaymah & others

Shaykh Yahya al-Hajuri hafidhahullah mentioned in his refutation of Dr. Zakir Naik pg 21 that Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (rahmatullah alaihi) said: “Whoever denies the ýýýý (Soorah i.e. Image for Allah) then he is Jahmee (the denier of Allah’s attributes) and the reason is based on the ahadeeth quoted above

Source : http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessag ... Topic=9638

[AdamB]

Q 4: “Allaah created Adam in His own image”. Does this mean that all the characteristics of Adam are also Divine?

A: It is authentically reported from the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him)in the Two Sahih (authentic) Books of Hadith (i.e. Al-Bukhari and Muslim)that he (peace be upon him) said: “Allah created Adam in His own image.” In a narration by Ahmad and some scholars of Hadith, the same Hadith reads: “in the image of Al-Rahman (the Most Merciful)“. In the first Hadith, the pronoun refers to Allah.

Some scholars like Ahmad (may Allah be merciful with him), Ishaq ibn Rahawayh and the Imams of the Salaf (righteous predecessors) said: “We have to accept the Hadith in a way befitting Allah without Tashbih (comparison), Tamthil (likening Allah’s Attributes to those of His Creation) or Ta`til (denial of Allah’s Attributes). It does not necessarily mean that His Image (may He be Glorified) is like the image of human beings. Similarly, attributing a face, hand, fingers, feet, leg, anger, and the like attributes does not entail that Allah’s Attributes are like those of the human beings. He (may He be Glorified) is described as what He tells about Himself and what His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) said in a way befitting Him, without being in similitude with any of His Creatures. Allah (may He be Glorified and Exalted) says:Surah Al-Shura, 42: 11 There is nothing like Him; and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer. We have to accept this in the way that the Messenger intended without Takyif (questioning Allah’s Attributes) or Tamthil.

The meaning – Allah knows best – is that He created Adam in His Image with a face and ability to hear, speak, see and do whatever he wants. It is not necessarily that the image is the same. This is a general rule according to the Ahl-ul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah (those adhering to the Sunnah and the Muslim main body), meaning that the Ayahs (Qur’anic verses) and Hadiths speaking about Divine Attributes should be accepted as true without Tahrif (distortion of the meaning), Takyif, Tamthil or Ta`til. They confirm His Names and Attributes without Tamthil and exalt Him above being similar to His Creatures without Ta`til, contrary to those who commit Bid`ah (innovation in religion) of Al-Mu`attilah (deniers of Allah’s Attributes) and Mushabihah (those who liken Allah’s Attributes to those of His creation). The hearing, seeing and knowledge of the creature is never like those of Allah (may He be Glorified and Exalted), for none of His creatures can be compared to Him. Indeed, there is nothing like Him, for the Attributes of Allah are perfect and infinite, with no shortcomings. As for the attributes of the creatures, they are finite and imperfect.

May Allah grant us success!

Ibn Baz Fatwas

[AdamB]

The intention of GOD was to make man a people who would commit sins, so that by seeking GOD's forgiveness and asking for HIM to accept our repentance


Adamb......... That extract above from your post is most misleading and is an attack on Gods character. How can you say God intent was to make man who would commit sin??

That's like saying God destroys and kills smh.
I really wish you would desist from making God out to be a selfish tyrant who revels in seeing humans suffer.

Red Fraction,
I went through this discussion before. You are the one attacking GOD's character by claiming that HE created us to NOT SIN but we humans somehow have broken away from the nature in which GOD has created us, so that we can commit sin.
Look you have your theology, and if you don't apply logic to it or accept it even though it makes no sense, then that's your choice. GOD created us with an intellect and the ability to choose the path to our destiny.

[AdamB]

[quote="turbohead
bro no offense but i think you should really expand and get proofs from credible ulema with permission in their education from the teachers that lead straight back to the pinnacle foundation of islam... these youtube sheiks you dealing wit that read a book and deducing from there own capacity is not in rank with the likes of Shayk abdul qadir jalani, Imam ahmad raza khan, Imam ghazali, may Allah bless their souls... for they were jus a few of the leading ulema that set the pace for us in islam, if you could find any "maulana" that could refute our ulema of the present times like Shayk habib ali jifri, Imam khalid hussain, Shayk ninowi, Shayk yacoubi and countless others i would consider taking your ruthless claims on, you fellas should stick to wat yuh good at and leave which doesnt concern you when you go with half truths and inuendos.... i pm'ed you so that i wouldnt have to deal wit you on the forum but yuh pushing yuh luck and making an ass out of yourself.. if you choose to follow the likes of abdul wahab of najd then i suggest you dont dive into topics that you dont know about.[/quote]
My dear brother in Islam,
I will repeat this from the above post on Allah having a form/not being imageless:
In fact, it is virtuous to admit the truth, which is the goal of the believers. Admitting the truth guides the people to the truth and distracts them from falsehood. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If anyone calls others to follow right guidance, his reward will be equivalent to those who follow him (in righteousness) until the Day of Resurrection without their reward being diminished in any respect, and if anyone invites others to follow error, the sin will be equivalent to that of the people who follow him (in sinfulness) until the Day of Resurrection without their sins being diminished in any respect.”

May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!

If you were living isolated with only the Quran and the books of Hadith, please tell me how the path you would take to worship your LORD would lead to Sufism / Mysticism?

Ask yourself this question: Did our prophet Muhammad, Abu bakr as-siddique, Umar, Uthman and 'Ali follow the path of Sufism?

[AdamB]

i can't believe i did not hit the 'enter' button.
so far the person of the son, or the word is to god like a reflection is to an object. it does not exist without its originator.
am i with u so far?

Yes, quite right.
Just remember, that the image is perfect itself, so it is no mere "reflection".

Who created the mirror that has the power to duplicate GOD

Why not is the mirror also a god?

I explained it was but an analogy. Do you have no idea what "idea" or "concept" means?
The "image" is a way of explaining the self-concept of God.

and where does this sequence of "assumptions" come from?

It's called 'Theology', my dear uneducated friend. Perhaps if you would care to attempt looking it up in ANY encyclopaedia, or even "google" it, you would easily get an answer.

I have asked dspike but no answers as yet! Ah talking 'bout source of knowledge nah cause it surely ain't logical!

Be wary in exposing your ignorance in public. It will only lead to embarrassment. This "sequence of assumptions" is older than Islam, and has been accepted by scholars for centuries. Use your brain. This obviously means you just need to peruse the writings of theologians who lived before 600 A.D., and discussed the Trinity.
If you are not even capable of recognizing or researching with this extremely narrowed field, then I doubt you will be capable of discussing this matter at the level these goodly gentlemen did.

Spikey, the name/s of the relevant Christian scholar/s and link to their works / documents / website.

For more than a thousand years these gentlemen and their writings were well-respected, even revered, in the educated world.
It is not my fault that you don't know of them, or that you might wrongly interpret their essays - which have been understood and debated by learned folk for hundreds of years...

If you don't care for Bach or Beethoven's music, it just means you never educated your taste... not that their music is old-fashioned.

Blah blah blah!!! No references = no basis = misguidance

[brams112]

how this gone from religion enlightment to bashing others?seems like the people who does walk the road in here too

[Chimera]

lol @ muslims fighting muslims , men saying they know for SURE what God intention was then another saying the other being offensive.

Kix yes

At the end of the day, how do ANY of you know ANYTHING for sure about a event/person/God/alien that happened thousands of years ago?

Think of it this way, in a group of 20 people today, If i tell a story to the first one and its passed on and on and on, by the time it reach the 20th person, that story has stuff taken out and added in. It isn't the original story.


You really think that stuff that supposedly happened thousands of years ago and has been written down,translated,modified to suit certain situations, translated again, carried across continents can be relied upon to say you know anything FOR SURE? or it's a FACT?

Unless there's a glowing gold book in the sky that speaks the word of God loud enough everyday and performs miracles for all those who go near it then even the first Koran or Bible or Bhagavad Gita's can't be trusted.

All the original texts have what the original author decide to put,with his opinion and twists on things.