Greetings tuners,

I'm looking to learn about engine management. Bought a couple reference books, but now i need hardware to practice with. Keep in mind, my priority is to gain experience. The engine will be n/a, no major mods.
The car is a CK4 Lancer - 4G92. Is an SDM lancer, but exactly like the local ones.

Ideally, I want something that can interface with a laptop so I can see what goin on. Extra wiring is not a problem, I can do that myself. From my reading, it seems that I am looking for a piggyback ecu. I need something that will serve my needs for now, but can be used if/when I decide to upgrade.

I saw ecus from haltech, aem, greddy and several other manufacturers. But, I like the greddy e-manage ultimate.

What are your thoughts tuners?

Avin.

Okay, I now look at the supported engines for the e-manage ultimate. No 4G92

What can i use?

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The laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. - Cesare Beccaria (1764)

if you want to get into it seriously, then forget piggy-back units. the emange and afc are all piggy back.

haltech, aem, power fc are all fully programmable stand-alone units that don't rely on the stock pre-programmed ecu. you have to come up with your own fuel and timing maps, and this is where learning and experience will come in.

there's a big difference between applying a correction to an existing map (piggy back) than having full control and dictating exactly how much fuel and how much timing you want at a particular load point.

generic stand-alone systems like haltech, autronic, motec, etc have a steeper learning curve because you have to also tell it what type of ignition system you have, how many cylinders, ignition dwell time, injector lag time, etc.

car-specific stand-alone systems (aem, power fc) generally only need adjustments to the fuel and timing curves to have a properly performing engine.

a wideband oxygen sensor will also be your best friend.

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For Sale:
Altezza BEAMS 3S-GE head and block

^^ I hear yuh.

From what you say, the best bet for starters would be a car specific stand alone system then. So i'd have a little head start with the settings.

What about user friendliness?

_________________
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. - Cesare Beccaria (1764)

Some ppl prefer to start in the deep end, but if you can find a car specific system for your application, then by all means go for it.

as far as user friendliness, it's a lot like any other software. The programmers would have their own idea of how things should be done, and it'll be reflected in the interface. You can download demos for most of the standalone units to get an idea of what changes you can make etc. and how.

The good thing about universal standalone systems is that you can use it on just about any engine so e.g. you could go in the 'boo and haggle with them over the engine that came without ecu, airflow meter or harness. All you really need with a universal ecu is the head and block.

_________________
For Sale:
Altezza BEAMS 3S-GE head and block

Arite then.

From personal experience, what brand do you recommend?

_________________
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. - Cesare Beccaria (1764)

aye man, if u want to learn about programming computers for engines, first u gotta understand how an engine works and all the dynamics of the engine your working on to achieve best results.........

2nd-ly as dry said, forget piggy-back sheit!! throw it away....
if your doing engine management, your doing engine management....STAND ALONE..!!!

in my opinion Microtech LT series management is one of the best deals on the market....it can be tuned with the hand controller and laptop....it uses all your original sensors
i've just installed one into my ride, dont let those MO-FOs out there chain you up and rape you with price to install, it aint hard at all!!
im now fiddling with the tuning, its really interesting and alot to learn if ur gonna learn it yourself....a lot of road testing...
i need a friking dyno!!!
Microtech has proven to be an extremely good management system, alot of pros use it....!!
it comes with a base map to suite your engine so once installed u can drive it and tune it yourself, it comes with a manual, DAR!!!
and it is very friendly......
error codes, alot of data, logs.......all kinda sheit!!!
and it definitely works man hahaha, dumb B16A V-TECs......dont know what happens when a laser flys past'em....its fun!!!

Haltech e6k an the new e6x are really good as well, sometimes it rquires sensors to be changed on the engine, 'sometimes' depending on the application..
i believe the e6x comes with a few more options over the Microtech LT8, but both can program with the same outcomes....and well u dont get a hand controller with any haltech ecus....u have to use a laptop....!!!
i dont know if the haltech comes pre-programmed and i dont know how easy they r to use......!!!

autoronic, DTA, MoTec, autronic are all excellent but amm, they cost a sheit load and i would only buy one if i had the money to and was building a serious all out race car.........
sheit the cheapest MoTec M4 clubman series cost 12,000TTD......a Microtech w/Hand controller - 7175TTD
i think the Haltech E6X is 7500

anyway my choise would either be the Microtech LT8s or LT10s....practically the same thing........or the Haltech E6X...

^^ Interesting stuff man.

I've never heard about Microtech......I have to do some research.
Who sells this though?

_________________
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. - Cesare Beccaria (1764)

Dry, I could be wrong (you more the ECU man than me), but some of the newer piggy back systems have almost as much control as the stand alones. e.g. the same E-manage ultimate has abilities to adjust most things, load multiple maps, control ignition by individual plugs, etc.

Obviously the stand alone controls all, but I wouldn't discount all the piggy backs. Also he should probably pick a system that allows him to download prebuilt setups so he doesn't have to setup everything from scratch.

this is some really good info

will be following this thread fo a while

There's a limit to how much control it has, and their concept of control is one of correcting the base map of the stock computer.

So e.g. you're setting the timing map at 4000 rpm and 10psi boost:
for a piggy back like the emanage, you'll enter "-5" in the appropriate cell -- retard 5 degrees

In a standalone system, you'd specify "28", which means use 28* timing.

In other words, piggy back is relative programming, stand along is absolute. In terms of just getting up and running, the piggy back is the better choice, since 90% of the work was already done by the factory ecu engineers.

For learning about engine systems and EFI in general, as seems to be his intention, a stand-alone is the only way to go.

_________________
For Sale:
Altezza BEAMS 3S-GE head and block

You hit the nail on the head there.

I can see that the learning curve will be steep though.

But, assuming that I dont get a vehicle specific stand alone system, then how do i develop base tuning parameters. Some of them are obvious, but what about the maps?

_________________
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. - Cesare Beccaria (1764)

try to get a dump from the stock ecu. some people burn their own maps into the stock ecu, and they need to know what they're changing. they'll most likely have the memory space mapped out, which could easily be translated into the aftermarket ecu.

most of the ecu's will have a base map by request for your particular engine. it'll at least be enough to get the car started and moving.

you'll need to first read up on the theory of engine management in general, so you'll know what needs changing. the screen letting you change "trigger angle" won't make sense until you have an idea about what it does and what role it plays in the entire system.

just remember that all an ecu basically does is read what rotation the crank is at, and fire fuel and spark at the appropriate time in the appropriate quantity. the most basic setup will tell it how to read the angle, and how to fire the spark/injectors.

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For Sale:
Altezza BEAMS 3S-GE head and block

I hear you.

Right now I am in the process of reading and understanding the theory.

How do you get a dump from the stock ecu?

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The laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. - Cesare Beccaria (1764)

google it

somebody musta done it before. check other tuning or car specific forums -- they might have specific procedures or already extracted ecu maps for your particular engine.

extracting it yourself is on another level in electrical engineering. they usually do some reverse engineering on the ecu, extracting the data from the memory chips and then decoding the built-in program based on what processor the ecu uses.

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For Sale:
Altezza BEAMS 3S-GE head and block

Good grief, google didn't occur to me

_________________
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. - Cesare Beccaria (1764)

corolla man i think you should talk to W2J he's researched the be-jezus outta that engine. and would certianly know what standalones are supported well for your engine app maybe plug and play standalones etc.. i think he is the dealer for microtech too.. but dry summed it up very well.. ELECTROMOTIVE TEC3 and AEM EMS are excellent stand alones along with the ones mentioned above.

i agree with katurbobeast.
I have a microtech installed on my civic it works just as well as any other system depending on your requirements

It uses all the stock sensors so there is no drilling and tapping to install sensors etc.

you can use your distributor as your crank sensor
there are lots of controls for changing conditions

i have a lt10 you have the option of using the hand controller or laptop for tuning you can save and/or switch between 4 different setups eg 1 for going to work and taking out the family 2nd for agressive driving at the track 3rd for going for bread

IF you looking for a place to start, start with a programmable piggy back. These systems work off your original sensors and if all setting remain at zero it will revert to stock ecu settings. Secondly when tuning you have a good platform to work with "stock settings", with a stand alone system any incorrect setting could mean blown coil packs, damaged internals or even a fried standalone unit. I strongly recommend a programmable piggy back, think carefully, what could the stand alone do that the piggy can't? Eg. Greddy Ultimate does everything from airflow, ignition timing, injectors, fuel cut, rev limits, knock sensing and list goes on.

There's a post on Zorce that covers the basics... ECU Tuning & the 4G63!
http://www.zorce.com/zforums/viewtopic.php?p=6489#6489

There are also 'scans' in the post that help explain how Mitsubishi ECUs work, especially in the Evo... [Evo 8 Flash Dance: - "Turbo" - Feb 2006.]
If you can, try to get the previous month's issue. It detailed Hondata's work on Honda ECUs.

BTW while 'stand alone' ECUs are great, in order to get optimum performance don't you need a dyno? No 4wd dynos in T&T yet... so it's still very much up to the 2nr's skill, and results vary widely. So for 4wd cars we're all out of luck.

Also the main strength that 'piggy-backs' have over 'stand-alone' ECUs is a "sophisticated" level of operation that few 'stand-alone' 2nrs can ever hope to achieve.

They retain all the features of an OEM ECU like OBD II functions and diagnostic data-logging, "cold start" operation, flexibility with/without the air-conditioning working ("idle-up" and secondary fan control etc.) and the other features that give flexibility, good mileage and smooth operation necessary for street use.

Some 'piggy-backs' also have launch control, "hot change" (W.O.T.) shifting etc. just like the 'stand-alone' units. The only things most can't do are to remove (or increase) "speed limiter", peak RPM values, change the 'base' boost control map (some can), or make allowances for different, extra large injectors. That's where a re-flash of the "base maps" comes in...
Now add the 'piggy-back'... Best of both worlds for the street IMHO.

BTW some new "piggy-backs" now feature "on-the-fly" built-in O2-sensor tuning, for better milage and even more (and safer) power and torque.

Newer 'piggy-backs' ain't cheap anymore either. Better ones are as much as $1500 US and an OEM ECU re-flash is another $100 US.
... But a really good "Stand-Alone" ECU can cost more than $2,500 US.

My $0.02c

_________________
Walk softly... and carry a BIG stick!

who can PROPERLY TUNE the haltec systems in tnt

So how come I using it ? maybe you should speak with someone who could actually tune it . Blue box, Gold box and Ultimate could work on any application once you know what you are doing you do not need a wiring diagram. The ultimate is more of a standalone than a piggy back since you are bypassing the stock ECU for ignition and injectors. Some ecu's will throw a code telling you there is no signal going to the injectors.

_________________
Teknet Company Ltd
8 French Street
Woodbrook, POS
625-TNET (8638)
teknet@trinidad.net
contact : Gerrard
http://www.teknetperformance.com

Can you tell the e-manage to use e.g. exactly 25* BTDC timing at 4000 rpm and 10 psi boost? If no, then it's a piggy-back. You program a piggy-back by telling it how much timing to add or subtract from the stock ecu's program. As long as it relies on the stock ecu to work, it's a piggy-back. If you want exactly 25*, you need to know what timing the stock ECU uses at that load-point, and then do corrections from there.

As he mentioned before, his real goal is not to get up and running in the least possible time -- it's to learn how timing and fuel curves work and what effect the parameters will have on the engine. e-manage (piggy-backs) will NOT teach that, only a standalone could.

The e-manage is an excellent performance tool, but not much of a learning tool (for his purposes).

_________________
For Sale:
Altezza BEAMS 3S-GE head and block

Dry is right the E-Manage Ultimate cant give the engine exactly 25*, it intercepts the signal after the ecu to the ignition, and same with the injector signal - you cant remove the OEM ECU with the E-Manage Ultimate.


but what ya'll are failing to realise that anything can be done with some skill and patience..

my Haltech E6K is using my CA18DET Nissan harness and sensors, the only sensors i needed to add were ait temp, water temp and MAP sensor, gopt rid of allot of the stock sensors too, but you can also rig it up to use the stock ECU for things like controlliong the Air Condition, Cold Start Idle etc.. allot of supra owners do this cause they have a ecu that uses the speed sensors to adjust teh suspension and all kinda madness..

i jsut cut off the iwres from the OEM ECU plug and wired them into my haltech harnes/plug, ran a seperate relay and fuse etc for the fuel pump and fans(some leave it for the stock ECU to controll too but i removed my ECU completely so haltech runs the show)

and E6K like mine can be found pretty cheap.. but i still say if you on a budget SDS may be your ticket.,

http://sdsefi.com/


and W2J you were the first person i refered him to

Dry the Ultimate once hooked through the crank sensor and the cam sensor you could set timming manually as you described. If however you are just using a ignition signal to incept and alter you will have to add via -20-20 in .5 increments. And yes you could tell the ultimate to add 25* BTDC timing at 4000 rpm and 10 psi boost. Its more powerfully than you taught. It also has a really neat feature to smooth out ignition and injector timming curves plus you could tune individual cylinder in increments of -20-20 by .5

_________________
Teknet Company Ltd
8 French Street
Woodbrook, POS
625-TNET (8638)
teknet@trinidad.net
contact : Gerrard
http://www.teknetperformance.com

well in the ultimate features and i quote it says:

[quote]
Ignition Adjustment Map - The “Ignition Adjustment Mapâ€

ok it says adjust here too, but kinda sounds like its pretty powerfull.

^ Aaron lets try the ultimate in the CA19 I guartee you wont regret my tuning

_________________
Teknet Company Ltd
8 French Street
Woodbrook, POS
625-TNET (8638)
teknet@trinidad.net
contact : Gerrard
http://www.teknetperformance.com

and what pull out the haltech - why dont you come tune that lol

and right now i am torn between selling all teh CA18 stuff and getting a RB25DET or selling teh car and getting a Van and saving some money for and EVO or something nice when the time is right..

^ horse haltec men go come gunning for me from south I already piss off enough of them already with my results on microtech and autotronic. Evo sounds like a nice option. There is a midnight blue one comming out very soon with alot of goodies for DEX and the 1320 with the ultimate and coolingmist.

_________________
Teknet Company Ltd
8 French Street
Woodbrook, POS
625-TNET (8638)
teknet@trinidad.net
contact : Gerrard
http://www.teknetperformance.com