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Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby dgobo » September 9th, 2011, 10:18 pm

^^ wait wait another man jump off the evo scene back into honda ????

i thought it was only me :) :)

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Silvermike » September 9th, 2011, 10:24 pm

nah still got the evo. the honda is dd

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Sky » September 9th, 2011, 10:47 pm

High_Speed_Imports wrote:
Sky wrote:What about power steering?

nothing needed to be done. Car is mobile


I mean isn't the K used with an electric PS system while the B/DFH/whatever other old engine uses the hydraulic system?

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby r3iXmann » September 10th, 2011, 7:37 am

Sky wrote:
High_Speed_Imports wrote:
Sky wrote:What about power steering?

nothing needed to be done. Car is mobile


I mean isn't the K used with an electric PS system while the B/DFH/whatever other old engine uses the hydraulic system?


nope

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only the drive-by-wire model K20s have electric ps iirc

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Sky » September 10th, 2011, 11:45 am

Ohhhhh, so the stoosh ones is the trouble. Well thas good to know :twisted:

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby X2 » September 10th, 2011, 1:51 pm

I was under the impression all K's were electronic power steering...

So what do you mean only the drive by wire ones ? WHat model K's are those ? I think all the us model type S ones are electric... so does that leave the ITR and CRV as power steering pump type ?

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Silvermike » September 10th, 2011, 2:46 pm

My K is not electronic PS.

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby r3iXmann » September 10th, 2011, 3:11 pm

X2 wrote:I was under the impression all K's were electronic power steering...

So what do you mean only the drive by wire ones ? WHat model K's are those ? I think all the us model type S ones are electric... so does that leave the ITR and CRV as power steering pump type ?


the civic si and the tsx have drive by wire

not sure about the rsx but i doubt

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby dgobo » September 11th, 2011, 8:00 am

My type r has drive by wire but it still has hydraulic power steering, guess that a plus then again if I had electronic power steering I would have a nice spot to install a rotrex.

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby JoeBama » September 16th, 2011, 9:44 pm

Question.guys what would u put in a honda prelude? As X2 does put it a weekend warrior and a daliy driver with about $20'g from suspension rims engine N/A or Turbo..curious but thinking of jumping in the honda game..don't kno much..

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Kinday » September 16th, 2011, 11:37 pm

Preludes are heavy machines...they deserve the H22 or get the F series engine (F20, F22, F23) and put 12-14psi on it with a 60-1. Don't worry....with proper tuning the block can take more boost in stock form than most other Honda blocks (especially the H *sigh*). They max out around 16-17psi and an deliver killer torque.

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby X2 » September 21st, 2011, 11:19 pm

Back OT.

Would like to get some info on the head of the K vs B.

Both are hemispherical combustion chambers... but how well does the K handle high compression on low octane gas ? Any input ?

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Silvermike » September 22nd, 2011, 9:43 am

ive managed to get a conservative tune of over 210whp with a bolt-on k-series on straight pump gas.

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby honda hoe » November 6th, 2012, 3:25 pm

X, what happened to this project?

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby X2 » November 6th, 2012, 4:03 pm

Well, I have done full budgets for both and I must say that the K's budget properly done was about double what I had expected. With all the 'right' parts, not cracking the block/head open or changing cams, the K20 swap budget has pushed well north of $60k (including engine/mounts/wiring/management/bolt-ons/shifter/etc). I then started a different budget a few months ago for a K24 instead... but cost is pretty similar to a standard K20.

So far, I have accumulated most of the parts for a turbo setup to go onto the B series and pretty much only need a set of pistons (or a stock B18 block) to finish. Cost of the turbo B will be roughly HALF the cost to go K20... and can easily surpass the power output.

Honestly, I still have not made up my mind 100% on which way I want to go... turbo is still deviously tempting to go back into (drove a turbo golf just today and my pants tear open) and I pretty much have all the parts I need .... Trying to get a ride in a well running K20 integra (or swapped civic) for comparison... open to offers ! But given the numerous chances we have to autocross these days, the K swap is still very viable and likely the more intelligent choice, but there are few things that feel like a 300whp turbo honda... so once again... I am torn, still contemplating the decision.

The reason I'm taking long is part research and part 'the way I do things'. The next heart that is chosen needs to have the same level of reliability that I always strive for....I completed my last build just about 10 years ago... and that is the same exact engine I run in the Clone to this day... do it once, do it right.

On that note... I hear that there is a K swapped civic about town that may be coming back to either solodex or drag and wind... lets see how it holds up to my currently B powered civic... the outcome of that encounter may just help sway the decision !

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby honda hoe » November 6th, 2012, 4:19 pm

if i were u.... since u looking for more power but still want it to be very drivable.. i would suggest u keep your B18 and supercharge it... i still think gobs of power + fwd = waste of time

i always wanted to do that with my ITR, but never got around to it before i sold it :(

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Aqeeb » November 6th, 2012, 5:38 pm

:S to me the D series pretty much out of the question, problem isn't the engine but availability of gearbox/ axles and other parts, i mean whether u building for circuit autocross or drags an lsd is important and it just easier to get parts for the b-series. Add to that the 4-5 different gearboxes u cud swap depending on the gear ratios u wanna run not to mention u can even get close ratio gear sets fr around $250 us the b series is the obvious choice. Boosted, the bseries power delivery gonna be harder to handle on small tight courses, it just isn't as linear as a NA car but then again thats half the fun isn't it? the K on its own is great, but you just can't beat a B for cheap performance

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Dirty Face » November 6th, 2012, 7:11 pm

Now see this yes
there is no comparison unless you have some money hidden away form the wife and decide you need to spend it quickly before she looks under the mattress and finds it

Im already WAYY over my head in collecting for a K build and kick myself for it everyday, and I got most of my parts 1/2 or 2/3 price

the K corner of my house, you need about EVERYTHING you see here, well except I know your not boosting ignore the BW and the sidewinder :twisted:

http://s7.postimage.org/jx5nnnr7f/photo_8.jpg

Lets just look at the basic stuff

the engine..chi ching$
harness..
sub-harness...
charge harness...
mounts
The shield on the tranny side, not needed by why wouldn't you?
Ac/Ps delete
aftermarket clutch (nothing really under 300 US)
K pro chi ching$
Tranny chi ching $ (and they prone to break eh, esp 2nd gear)
Axles, dont know who told you you dont need them, unless your re doing the hub or doing a junkyard special cross breed with say a crv piece you need them
Swap header.. not cheap either, even the OBX one is like 350 I think
the fuel conversion, so an fpr, fuel rail and gauge etc with the fittings and all that for return

And all this is for the stock setup, no rbc, no injection etc etc yet eh

compared to
have b18
have chipped ecu
have axles
have tranny, maybe lsd also?

for 300 whp need - a log manifold (cheap), a used intercooler off almost anything (cheap),somebody who upgraded their evo injectors and have the 560 lying around (cheap) and a downpipe/piping
and a nice turbo to eliminate this lag you speak of (bw s252 or gt28RS) this is the only pricey part of this whole build...I Think the s15 came with 28R stock if I not mistaken so you getting that used in the TT at a decent price

Unless you insist you in love with N/A it just cant be worth it

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby red_dragon » November 6th, 2012, 8:10 pm

^ wah happen now bro ..... glad u decide

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby X2 » November 7th, 2012, 8:24 am

Guys... this isn't my first rodeo... lol

All the K swap parts I have costed out are good parts... rywire harnesses, s2 header, DSS axles, tucked radiator, blah, blah... and I'm looking to keep a/c !

As far as turbo, I already have a nice peakboost manifold, intercooler, tial gate, new injectors, gauges..have already fabbed up the downpipe and so on... the only major factor that I need to decide on is the turbo itself to match my needs... it will not be a dyno queen by any means... don't need any lectures on how difficult it is to run a fwd with plenty power :)


As far as boosting the k... IF I decide to go K... in the long run I'm looking at a rotrex supercharger... which is why I don't have a wife... lolol However the big issue is the turbo B would require me to rebuild my engine, which brings up the overall cost and time invested... turboing won't be a weekend job unless I bit the bullet and bolt in a used stock block and hope for the best... but the way I abuse my car, I doubt a stocker will hold up very long on *cough* premium.

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Dirty Face » November 7th, 2012, 7:43 pm

^^ We know its not your first rodeo lol

Why do you feel you need a rebuild? whats does a compression test read? Also whats premium equivalent to, U.S. 93 octane?Also is the peakboost a ramhorn or log? yes i know 4 quickfire questions

turbo dont stress sub 300HP there is only one turbo to consider gt28RS, and if I were you I would just settle with the gt28R because that should be beating around in the bamboo like dog (stock s15 turbo) and with the price I could afford to push and abuse it to the 300WHP which would mean it would be operating maybe 10-15% over peak efficency but its a small price to pay.

side note there is no one who abuses a car more than I do the EF, and on a stock b16 with an X IM and 290WHP its been going over 2 years now, and I mean 8000-8500 rpm and full boost 80% of the time, in fact its the TURBO thats starting to give out, the engine has no issues beside a vtec solenoid gasket leak which is nothing. I mean Im sure its not at 100% of what the compression reading was 2 years ago but not noticeable

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby X2 » November 7th, 2012, 9:55 pm

Thanks for your input Dirty Face... I shall assume you are backing the turbo B option over a stock internal N/A K series ?

You read my mind on the turbo.... Top of the list for me has been the GT28RS....not to look like a fan-boy, but honestly it seems like it will be a great fit. The same reason of abuse is also why I want to go with a brand new unit... but if I can find a 28R in the bamboo I would give it a try as long as the price is right.... a reasonable low boost for the autoX track would be fine but my desire to eclipse 300whp with a higher boost setting for drags might be asking a bit much from it. Other than that... I've been considering shodan's silver surfer turbo on a T3 flange... but have some concerns as to how it will do on a short autoX course versus the 28RS.

My current setup is over 11:1 CR and after 9 years of daily driving and flogging at the races... the rings are showing the wear. Haven't done a recent compression test, but after I bottle feed her (SOON COME !!!).. don't expect it to last much longer. Plus the fact that the pistons are domed... I would probably just yank and replace with a set of off the shelf 9.5:1 slugs. I would consider putting in some dished 10:1 but the dirty 95RON gas is barely equivalent to usa grade 91 at the pump.... boosting the 10:1 can be done... but mehhh...

The peakboost manifold is a ramhorn with some gorgeous welds. I would consider just throwing on a log mani, but this beauty was a steal of a deal and just looks so choice in the engine bay :-D

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Dirty Face » November 8th, 2012, 4:35 am

1) Yes by far im saying look at all the k parts i had to get, plus youre doing k24 so you need the RBC and a rsx or equivalent throttle body, plus I forgot the shift linkage and shifter plate, etc etc no way could I feel its worth it unless you "just want a K" or insist you want NA.

2) My aforementioned b16 setup has the 28RS, best street turbo ever invented, but guess what, the CHRA is bad now and its 800 US to get a new one (almost the cost of the whole turbo new) which is why I recommend the 28R because of local availability and price, ball bearings are nice until they fail they you want to shoot yourself when what should've been a 100 US rebuild is a 800 US rebuild.The only other real choice would be a BW S252 close to the same spool, no water cooling, cheaper rebuild, supports more HP or the gt2871, these would give you the drag more hp advantage that you feel you want. While the surfer is a great turbo its overkill for you're power levels.

3) Dont stress the 11:1, if you feel you have shitty 91 have you considered water/meth tapped from the windshield washer tank? I take it you can get the blue windshield washer fluid anywhere in TT? (US 10 a CASE up here) for all the headache you're talking about you could just get a nozzle and a controller for a couple hundred US and plumb it into the intake tract..

4) forget looks, log beats ram at your HP levels any day because of less heat loss and pulse modulation, youre not shooting for 500WHp!

Tally:
1) decide that its really 300 whp ish you want, at least for now
2) get a 28R from whoever upgraded their s15, 30 mins to swap out if it goes bad anyhow
3) sell the peakboost, log is better for youre setup and a t3 flange wont work anyhow (this sale is going to fund the rest of the project!) Also where is the AC fitting with the peakboost??
4) sell the tial wastegate the 28R is internally gated, another resaon to leave out the peakboost (this sale is going to leave you with money left over after the project! buy beers!)
5) get a log or use a stock hf/vx manifold and weld on a t2 flange
6) Remember John Brown (guy who built the Aboud civic one seater) used to tune on 11:1 and high whp all day so dont be afraid
7) Try the water/meth if you need the safety, inexpensive and leaves your winshield cleannnn, its like driving around with over 100 OCTANE
8) Take my advice on at least this one thing, when your 11:1 spools that 28r at 3500 RPM and you get a near linear powerband from 3500 rpm to 8500 or 9000 rpm you are going to be walking around with a perpetual grin, even at auto X youll be in boost so often people are going to start to call you Guy Smiley.

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby X2 » November 8th, 2012, 9:41 pm

lol @ guy smiley

I've been considering boosting on my current piston but just wary of the water/meth... I know it's great advantage, but coupled with our heat/humidity levels... just a bit shaky... but willing to try it. I have done 100% of my tuning for the past few years, but with a boosted/hi comp setup, I would probably give up the ghost and bring in a pro (friend or a friend that does those kind of high risk setups). It's a je piston and the block can take it.. so why not eh ?

I fully agree with you on the log vs ramhorn... but she is SO purdy !! I can get a 28RS from a shop in texas that will do a external gate... but you do have a good point with the cost benefit. I've had the peakboost mani in my cupboard for so long that I tend to forget what it's worth. Any advice on which log mani is decent for the $$ ? Do they even still have drag manifolds for sale or are those cheapo ebay log manis worth a damn ?

On a side note... I will look, but there aren't alot of s15's here as you would imagine, so I dunno how easy it would be find one in the bamboo.... time to put on some greasy clothes and go under cover !

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Dirty Face » November 9th, 2012, 6:35 am

^^ Do It!! Dont procrastinate :)

Its hard to get a t2 honda mani, youre better off making it Trinidad, header flange and t2 flange story done; its log how can they mess it up? More importantly the number one "mess up" with log mani is the welders wastegate placement which you dont have to worry about, just make sure he uses 304 and not some chinese alloy lol.

You have arp head studs on the engine now?

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby COROLLA KID » November 9th, 2012, 9:06 am

k20 and boosted b are both expensive...
if you got the money buy the K20, sell the the B18c afterwards and buy a turbo kit for the K20...
a turbo K series is the ultimate honda build IMO....if you got the money that is

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby X2 » November 9th, 2012, 7:10 pm

COROLLA KID wrote:k20 and boosted b are both expensive...
if you got the money buy the K20, sell the the B18c afterwards and buy a turbo kit for the K20...
a turbo K series is the ultimate honda build IMO....if you got the money that is



lol... there are a lot more parts to a K swap than you might be thinking. Boosting the B properly is half the cost of the K swap complete... even after selling the B series to help the funding.

Dirty, yes.. have arp studs... current block needs nothing but rings and/or lower comp pistons. Also have a old, stock sleeve b20vtec setup I can put together... but I have a thing for oil squirters when boosted. As far as making a manifold here... I'll ask around. HF manifolds are very hard to come by down here ! I checked back with the shop in tx that can do the T3 housing and well... woi... it's pricey !

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Dirty Face » November 9th, 2012, 8:03 pm

Corolla kid like you eh read the WHOLE thread huh lol

X2 told you the TX option was off; by the time they flange and re route for external gate they probably want close to 1500 US Im sure.

Do what we talked about, if it needs re rings when that time comes youll get to it, abuse it for now; or just work on the B20 block in the meantime slowly so if it goes its a simple switchover. forget about oil squirters being an issue, you have a better chance reaching the flashpoint of the oil on a rev,2 step, a lag etc than the squirter vs non-squirter being youre source of failure, especially at under 500 WHP

glad you had arp's, hunt down a man with an s15 for they old turbo (didnt dry have one?)and start to look for the water meth via skybox or whatever, make sure it has a boost dependent pressure controller and a decent atomizing nozzle! I pushing you! project done by dec 1st !! :mrgreen:

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby X2 » November 9th, 2012, 9:23 pm

LOL... keep up the pushing meng... I take forever to do a build !

I like the squirters cuz I do drive the mountain roads quite a bit... keeps her cool. As far as the water meth... have a few options to get it here, so no scene.

The next step tho is a small shot of nitrous (before anything else)... it's what I built this engine for eons ago... so I gotta see what she will do on at least a 50 shot before I look to rebuild. Soooo.... the nitrous kit would work with boosted B or a K... win-win !

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Re: Man UP... K20 or Turbo B

Postby Aarong420 » November 18th, 2012, 7:12 pm

just stumbled upton this thread,....wondering myself on what to do.
more leaning toward the turbo build since i've already got the b18cr and mangmnt. eng could do with a rebuild and slight bore as well.

BTW, about the custom manifold. Check "katurbobeast" i think thats his user name,.. any material u want, any design u can fathem in your brain, this guy can make it, properr.

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