CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

[chris1388]

That is my interpretation of when a fee is required for a query of a car as well....guess I was wrong...we shall pay the fee each next time we have a question.
This matter has absolutely nothing to do with what he was adressing akash about...but I'm sure anyone with a ounce of common sense by now would know why karl chose to stick that in his post.

[JDM_GUY]

I too asked how the WRX in the SS class? Its a 2.0L AWD turbo car. SS has never seen a 2.0L AWD turbo car before, but the officials said it was classes right so I to just went on my merry way.

[wagonrunner]

Smh...again with the some ppl...I asked how come the wrx was in ss and trevor calculated the w/p and showed me it was within range and I then acknowledged. I will pay what ever fee you speaking about next time since it was such a big problem.
As to this issue with akash...I didn't even know about it till now. Again trying to make me out as being some kind of trouble maker without calling my name when u full well know it was me that asked the question...but that's your plan all along...so you could then come and throw it back on me saying I choose to believe its me you always speaking of..when it is. All reading seeing who have the real problem with who...so continue. As I said I will pay the fee next time I have a question.

sigh. was it you alone?



does some mean more than one? since i lack the common sense required.

but I'm sure anyone with a ounce of common sense by now would know why karl chose to stick that in his post.

Clearly.

but seriously. Please let me go.
There is nothing about you that allows you to occupy my thoughts as severely as you hope. I would appreciate if it was mutual. I think it may actually be beneficial to you.

[chris1388]

I too asked how the WRX in the SS class? Its a 2.0L AWD turbo car. SS has never seen a 2.0L AWD turbo car before, but the officials said it was classes right so I to just went on my merry way.

Don't forget to pay the fee next time you ask

[Razkal]

really and truly, i think p/w ratio as a means of classing is the most unbiased way to simply get the job done. i have no problem being classed with Moses and Chris, who are both faster than I am..the thing is, i acknowledge that a monumental increase in my ability is required to really see what the car is capable off..right now my w/p ratio that put me in my current class has some wiggle room. i can still lose a good few pounds or gain a few horses and still remain in class. i already have coilover penalty points..although it's only fronts i have. i use used tires always.

umm, for the record the current rules system puts your RX-7 in EPR.
However, your car was reclassed after watching it's BYCC times to where it was thought it would be competitive.

i seriously urge you to locate my first two registration forms of the 2013 Autocross season and see that i did register for EPR, not as a rookie, for the first bycc and autocross 1. the executive does what they see fit. i just show up and race without giving much of a sheit wrt which class i run.

just observation eh, but if i was reclassed with no consultation, why can't the other 'problematic' drivers/competitors be subject to the same?

So the suggestion of classing cars where they are seen to be competitive is not a good one then?

SOME competitors are quick to grumble without paying the protest fee. An attempt was made to reclass a WRX before it even ran on sunday. "How that in SS?" Weirdly enough, you weren't a concern. I wonder if it's because they saw what your car could do before.

The results for the previous events can be redone. The other EPR competitor runs in open to constitute the class, so OPEN it is?

i never insinuated such. if i was re-classed (from calculations that placed me in EPR) to SS, based on where'd i'd be competitive, then why can't the same SIMPLY be done for other cars/drivers that are outperforming/under performing their in class competition? my question wasn't on the effectiveness but the scope. why stop at me? or is it only applicable in a down-classing situation?

...and, again, i WILL RUN my car, WHICHEVER class i'm placed in. i'm there to drive and have fun doing it. SS, EPR, OPEN or whatever the executive sees fit.

The sole reason i made the statement earlier in this thread making clear my position on the rookie status, is because i know the 'reconciliation of rookie status for some' was based on internal conflict on MY status. I addressed it because my clear stance on the matter should make decision making easy for the executive not so?

I was aware from the last autocross #2 that it was clearly a cause for concern, if not a problem. Given the stress associated with this classing thing and the fact that i'm the ONLY rookie that can be 'questioned', i suggest to replace the sponsored award and prize at the next event, clearing my name and competitor number of rookie status and the drama associated. the other rookies are genuinely new and from last events results, it appears Javed in the wrx sti is the deserving rookie (?)

[wagonrunner]

i never insinuated such. if i was re-classed (from calculations that placed me in EPR) to SS, based on where'd i'd be competitive, then why can't the same SIMPLY be done for other cars/drivers that are outperforming/under performing their in class competition? my question wasn't on the effectiveness but the scope. why stop at me? or is it only applicable in a down-classing situation?

For the reason as I tried to demonstrate with the example of the WRX. Attempts at "Fair Competition will be presented as unjustified persecution by those with something to lose.

IMO the times do tell a story.

But as said in the D&W thread.

there is no glory in beating someone over and over who is clearly not as fast as you

I presented an observation and an idea, and look where that reached.

[María]

Akash, did a member of the executive question your rookie status? You were awarded the prize last event because exec had considered you a rookie....When Karl posted the results he was unaware of who were the rookies hence his comment about rookie status needing clarification - he just wanted to post the times for all as quickly as possible. There were a quite a number of competitors who should have rookie but didnt at the time of posting, however that is being fixed.

even after the adjustments to rookie status of the other competitors, your time improvement on the day means you deserve your prize but if u want to return it thats cool too.

if you think the exec didnt have the right to put u in SS you can run in EPR. you can choose to run in any class higher than the one in which you are placed.

if you know of any other cars that discretion should be used in class placement, kindly point them out so it can be addressed

[María]

on a GENERAL note questions posted should be answered as logically as possible and based on fact WITHOUT reading anything behind the question. if we keep reading personal messages (whether they there or not) we going to remain where we are and never move forward. the point of asking what are other possible ways of classifying cars is to find out just that! it is not to decide who solution better than who or what the motive is behind anyone suggestion. if we can't carry on a civil discussion on an ONLINE FORUM, how are we supposed to move from suggestions to something that can actually be voted on....if that is where the discussion needs to go to (not that this was intended to need voting eh...doh go reading nuttin into that

[Razkal]

Akash, did a member of the executive question your rookie status? You were awarded the prize last event because exec had considered you a rookie....When Karl posted the results he was unaware of who were the rookies hence his comment about rookie status needing clarification - he just wanted to post the times for all as quickly as possible. There were a quite a number of competitors who should have rookie but didnt at the time of posting, however that is being fixed.

even after the adjustments to rookie status of the other competitors, your time improvement on the day means you deserve your prize but if u want to return it thats cool too.

if you think the exec didnt have the right to put u in SS you can run in EPR. you can choose to run in any class higher than the one in which you are placed.

if you know of any other cars that discretion should be used in class placement, kindly point them out so it can be addressed

i was told karl had brought it to the execs attention. others who weren't present for the initial protest asked me about it and my stance. i try my best to avoid confusion and speak my mind in the process, for the record, nothing i post here has anything hidden behind it. as karl said, which i agree with btw, i'm familiar with the solodex concept and the cone-course-layout so i wouldn't consider myself a rookie to the sport as much as a rookie driver, so i wasn't gonna let it be a cause for concern or debate..besides, i think it'll just be damn outta timing to renounce rookie status but just keep the prize anyway..just me? hence the return suggestion

wrt re-classing me, i think you misinterpreted my point. i stated numerous times, i don't care about class placement, i really just want to get faster. if i win or lose in the process, thats all part of the ride. i'm cool in SS, i was cool at dyno day when i realised i'd be in EPR. I honestly just wanna be the fastest rwd there...once others show and its not by default
my comments on the issue, were in reference to karl's suggestion that class leaders like chris and devi can compete within a higher class and still be competitive whilst leaving something for the guys in their (current) class to compete for. i observed that I was adjusted in class placement, based on where i'd be competitive, and asked why not for the others previously suggested? the same way by the rules, i'd be in epr but in reality barely an ss, then adjusted accordingly. chris, by rules would be in ss, in reality more of an ep driver..and adjust accordingly.
that's why i asked if it could only freely be done by the executive when lowering a competitors' class placement and isn't applicable to placing a driver in a higher class.

i honestly mean no confusion and posted as clearly as i could. sorry if any of it seemed otherwise.

[María]

no apology needed razkal!

the point of moving cars up will be discussed by exec

[wagonrunner]

Another one I didn't understand, if p/w is a clear indicator of car's handling, how come the difference in those ranges were never uniform?

[Razkal]

Good question, makes sense if its the criteria for classing that ranges and differences remain uniform season after season. I was looking at changing differences in ss class, could the change in 2010 be to increase competition? Or narrow the range to control the class size?

[wagonrunner]

Or select which vehicles would be in certain classes?

[Razkal]

*shrugs shoulders* meem know self... how's about using next event, since its a BYCC, to 'fine-tune' classing so to speak. once all official competitors show up that is.

but, wouldn't

Or select which vehicles would be in certain classes?

fall squarely on the shoulders of the executive who are in charge of developing the classes and criteria for each?

[wagonrunner]

but, wouldn't

Or select which vehicles would be in certain classes?

fall squarely on the shoulders of the executive who are in charge of developing the classes and criteria for each?

won't that go right back to a, "but look my p/w ratio is xxxxxxxxx, and my mods is xxxxxxxxxxxxx, therefore you should ignore the fact that my times are competitive in another class, because I should be in this one."?

unless competitors willingly accept the challenge of competition, it'll only keep going in circles.
Seemingly knowing you're beating at least 75% of the field, is an easier option than facing a toss-up where it could be anyone's.?

[pete]

My car PWR is 21.42 because I took out the seats. It used to be over 22 with them in. I took them out as I was racing against a car that had more HP and a better PWR than mine the year I first took them out. I don't know how it was changed from 22 to 20 but no matter what, my car would be in ES. Now I race in ESP with my 21.42PWR against possible cars that are 14.0 and put on race tyres to improve my chances. But, I could also bump up my power or shed some weight from the car to drop my PWR(much like the completely gutted MX3 that won ESP last dex).

The ignis sport is 17.82 and ESP is from 14.0-20 so that is lower middle of the PWR for ESP and with race tyres chris goes to SS. A car MUCH faster than his could theoretically be in SS as well (14.1PWR, coilovers and race tyres). So to say that the classes are set to the benefit of the people winning is not correct.

What's to say that the people winning is purely because of the car anyway? Do we need to class the car and driver as a combination?

[Razkal]

well i can't speak for the rest of the competitor field, but honestly, i'd rather try beating the leaders in my class outright ( a verrry long stretch, but a fun process) than having them bumped up to give the rest of SS a chance. even if i can close the gap to a reasonable amount, given my car's capability and theirs, its a sense of accomplishment.

[chris1388]

Thankyou very much pete...that indeed was an excellent point. You are basically running a ES car against much faster ESP cars and use the race tires to balance it out together with your driving skill....its the same case with me using a ESP car in SS with the race tires. Both you and I can gain lots of power and still stay in respective class. As I said soon I'll move up to EP once I get one or two things sorted to try and win the class...then maybe they'd want the ignis in open class!

[Razkal]

doh move til i beat yuh nah?

[chris1388]

Yea well I'll stay until I get the car where I want it in terms of preparation so you have some more chances to beat me lol

[cinco]

so when is the next BYCC? i want to enter

[pete]

I think it's in 2 weeks. (5th May)

[Razkal]

i and all having alot of work to get the car feeling more neutral as is. plus i deliberating if to fork out for tires for BYCC or just get in a few laps on the ones i have...need to try the car out though, made changes since D&W3 and haven't really tested it yet.


five, next BYCC is on the 5th of May, cinco de mayo good day for you..

[cinco]

i and all having alot of work to get the car feeling more neutral as is. plus i deliberating if to fork out for tires for BYCC or just get in a few laps on the ones i have...need to try the car out though, made changes since D&W3 and haven't really tested it yet.


five, next BYCC is on the 5th of May, cinco de mayo good day for you..

well then i HAVE to enter!

[Razkal]

damn skippy! see you there man

[wagonrunner]

My car PWR is 21.42 because I took out the seats. It used to be over 22 with them in. I took them out as I was racing against a car that had more HP and a better PWR than mine the year I first took them out. I don't know how it was changed from 22 to 20 but no matter what, my car would be in ES. Now I race in ESP with my 21.42PWR against possible cars that are 14.0 and put on race tyres to improve my chances. But, I could also bump up my power or shed some weight from the car to drop my PWR(much like the completely gutted MX3 that won ESP last dex).

The ignis sport is 17.82 and ESP is from 14.0-20 so that is lower middle of the PWR for ESP and with race tyres chris goes to SS. A car MUCH faster than his could theoretically be in SS as well (14.1PWR, coilovers and race tyres). So to say that the classes are set to the benefit of the people winning is not correct.

What's to say that the people winning is purely because of the car anyway? Do we need to class the car and driver as a combination?

with a cars that's classed based on............................

Perhaps cars aren't being classed in the best way possible?

If you believe the P/W is absolute and flawless. fine. But if not, how do you justify that point? The car's handling vs the classification system? Which one remained more or less the same?

[MG Man]

nobody said it was flawless
even in F1 you have arguments over le rules
Is the 'one man drive everybody car in a figure 8 and rank times' system flawless?

[wagonrunner]

I'm asking when an ES classed car changes classes based on the existing system. Is it still the same car?

as for the flawlessness of one man timing a car in a figure 8. more than likely it has more than i'm seeing. Are you willing to discuss those?

So to say that the classes are set to the benefit of the people winning is not correct.

The winners are somehow able to drive their cars beyond it's mechanical ability?
i think all "winners" can get as close to 100% out of their cars as possible. The results to me show where the competition in that lies by nearness of times.
i also think there are others in those class, who do the same.

I think the current classing system does not reflect that.

curiously, while at TTRC's event yesterday for a couple minutes, I heard Cadiz announce during a run "has an advantage on this course due to the shorter wheelbase". Anyone else happen to hear that?
Anyhow, what would he know. ent.

[pete]

What do you propose we do? Unless two cars are identical there will always be advvantage for one or another. Best I could suggest is use a variation of the ratios I did before and multiply something g by the pwr to come up with a handling correction. Because that figure of 8 test might put my car in the same category as an evo which would have much better acceleration and would be up to 10 seconds faster on a normal course.

Sent from my GT-P5113 using TriniTuner mobile app

[chris1388]

I asked karl and maria a question a while back and niether replied. Explain the difference in the championship shootout years past where the winner's time was significantly better than say the lower end of the results. I for one remember ryan pinheiro finding time that noone else cud find with vishnus b14. Please explain.
Also ryan peyrau took the stock swift sport the year lifestyle sponsored one for the shootout. Amir won that year. Peyrau took the car after ALL the competitors used it and blew the winning time out of the water.