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CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

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chris1388
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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 18th, 2013, 6:46 pm

It is a good suggestion....BUT I dont think it should be really taken serious as a viable means to deal with the situation at hand without doing what I suggested first. I am almost certain that with improvement in driving that the large gaps you spoke about can be greatly minimized....ok not to the point where the said cars may beat the leader but it will bring them within a margin where maybe modification to your car can help make up the time to then catch the leader....tires,sway bars, springs etc.
I understand not everyone may be able to afford modifications to do this, but does that mean the rules should be changed because of this?
The driver is the biggest modification you can make at solodex.....then tires.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby whizpig » April 18th, 2013, 6:57 pm

I agree that some cars are better suited for dexterity than say drifting and vice versa, but Chris has a point driver skill is a huge factor. But something i realised back when i was pondering on the rules and the penalties associated with modifications . . . . its not fair, and its not going to be fair unless everyone drives the same car, or stringent rules as seen in F1 or NASCAR are implemented

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 18th, 2013, 7:18 pm

Adrian's suggestion is even better than a "length correction factor"

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby María » April 18th, 2013, 7:22 pm

chris1388 wrote:
All that being said....Pete came up with a nice idea but I don't think the rules should be changed for something like that. I think those questioning the rules should take up the offer I outlined before trying to crunch numbers and come up with a "length correction factor".



what do you mean "something like that"? aren't we discussing the classification of cars? why shouldn't the rules be changed for that?

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby María » April 18th, 2013, 7:28 pm

adriano7910 wrote:i dont believe that a car should be penalized for the way it is built to be honest.

what i think could be a benefit is that as cars go up in class, the penalty points are raised from 4 points. and for the shorter cars (within a certain wheel base and lenght) with the added advantage their penalty points remain the same giving the longer cars a basis to even the odds.



you are assuming that the longer cars are being modified. what if the car remains stock? then the increase in penalty points is of no value.

you are also basically saying that the shorter cars have an advantage now hence their penalty remaining the same not so?

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby JDM_GUY » April 18th, 2013, 7:46 pm

I think its all on the driver to reach clost to the top car and then the car will have to do the rest. Just look at the top drivers and watch what they drive like devi and he was doing 94 sec on the day. Any my car has only 10 more horses than his.

Anyway to more pressing matters, this 6run, 2lap thing has to stop. I cant afford tires, I might have to take out a second mortgage to fund Autocross if something isnt done. HELP!

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 18th, 2013, 8:51 pm

María wrote:
adriano7910 wrote:i dont believe that a car should be penalized for the way it is built to be honest.

what i think could be a benefit is that as cars go up in class, the penalty points are raised from 4 points. and for the shorter cars (within a certain wheel base and lenght) with the added advantage their penalty points remain the same giving the longer cars a basis to even the odds.



you are assuming that the longer cars are being modified. what if the car remains stock? then the increase in penalty points is of no value.

you are also basically saying that the shorter cars have an advantage now hence their penalty remaining the same not so?


So what you are saying is that if either #1 you cant afford to modify the car or #2 choose not to modify the car to stay competitive yet within the rules, then the rules should be changed to facilitate the longer car because of this? That makes no sense if you ask me.

You have the option to modify your car within limits.....if you cant then you cant....that is the nature of racing

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 18th, 2013, 8:52 pm

JDM_GUY wrote:I think its all on the driver to reach clost to the top car and then the car will have to do the rest. Just look at the top drivers and watch what they drive like devi and he was doing 94 sec on the day. Any my car has only 10 more horses than his.

Anyway to more pressing matters, this 6run, 2lap thing has to stop. I cant afford tires, I might have to take out a second mortgage to fund Autocross if something isnt done. HELP!


You are not forced to run 6 times....i chose to only do 4 runs...you could have as well

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 18th, 2013, 8:59 pm

María wrote:
chris1388 wrote:
All that being said....Pete came up with a nice idea but I don't think the rules should be changed for something like that. I think those questioning the rules should take up the offer I outlined before trying to crunch numbers and come up with a "length correction factor".



what do you mean "something like that"? aren't we discussing the classification of cars? why shouldn't the rules be changed for that?


Nowhere else in the world...not in any form of racing are cars penalized for being "hatch backs" or having a "Short wheel base"....introducing a rule to do THAT makes no sense if you ask me when the real issue in our case at solodex for the large difference in times is primarily down to driver. Devi's times were much ahead of the rest of ESP but I'm not sure if any of you noticed....he did not win the class dex gone.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby Ignorant Ignis » April 18th, 2013, 9:12 pm

dont we set long and short tight courses to compensate for this already?

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby pete » April 18th, 2013, 10:38 pm

It also comes down to how in depth do you want the rules to be? My suggestion if you look at it would put lots of pressure on the people classifying cars on the day. What happen when a newcomer shows up? Or 15. Who is going to do the math? I would also say its a lot more fair than a 1800lb car with 150whp competing against a 2600lb car with 85whp but that classification system attracts people based on its simplicity. We don't want newcomers to become discouraged but at the same time I think getting too in depth with the rules may scare more away.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby adriano7910 » April 18th, 2013, 11:06 pm

Excellent point pete. I still say go with my solution. Its a base class and longer car have the option of more points to modify. But not by so much that it becomes unfair. It cannot be said that because someone cannot afford to modify their car that solodex should penalize the others. The issue is that the chance is being giving to make it fair. look at me. I dont have the money to modify anything but i have to race against much faster ligther cars. I wont say its unfair. It wasnt my opponents fault. Ill just drive my heart out to the point that im scared and pray its gd enough

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 19th, 2013, 12:15 am

chris1388 wrote:So what you are saying is that if either #1 you cant afford to modify the car or #2 choose not to modify the car to stay competitive yet within the rules, then the rules should be changed to facilitate the longer car because of this? That makes no sense if you ask me.

You have the option to modify your car within limits.....if you cant then you cant....that is the nature of racing
you say the above. without giving a simple yes or no below. Are you this discipline's iteratation of TTASA's link)? (in all too many known ways)
wagonrunner wrote:so to clarify, you agree with the following?
two vehicles with the same P/W ratio and a difference in length of 2 feet plus could be expected to handle the same in a dexterity race.

i agree with whizpig in the the rules will never satisfy all. but isn't that the point of them? seemingly some drivers need the win to beat up on other vehicles that badly, that nothing else can show up and actually have a shot at it, so be it i guess.

Some think kirk never drove my car and that his times were faster than mine in my heydeys (benefits??? of something that slow and brick-like ;) ), that's their business. some think i'm only concerned about my vehicle and performance, that's also in line with their thinking.
to me, fair means fair to all. but a trophy, and false sense of accomplishment seems more important.


And if you'd be interested in the dates and comments. (waits for he was just the web-admin, so nothing else would count)
Asking SCCA about p/w in 2007

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 19th, 2013, 6:11 am

Why you coward so? Put my name in your above posts na karl...and stop saying somebody. Every comment you have posted since I commented was directed to ME so I have no clue why you don't say my name...if you forgot it next dex when I see you I will remind you. You single me out and once again think that I am so sad like yourself that I post here to attack you....I'm afraid ur the only one in here that does that. None of my comments were directed to you and why would I or anybody for that matter think that you are concerned about your performance or vehicle?? You don't even compete.
You then go on to state that some people...which obviously is me again need to beat up on people and scared to give others a chance...if that is what you deduced from all I have said thus far then all I can do is laugh. I have already offered to help my main competitor at dex to drive his car and maybe help him be quicker. I walk the course freely with anyone on the day even my competitors and share all my lines and braking points...I've done this with rado and moses and even others not in my class such as yohan at the last event.
You also say fair means fair to all like if I don't believe in that...all I did was disagree with what you and maria were claiming that there is a problem in the way the cars are classed and even agreed with adrians suggestion to help the situation. To your last attack that I need a trophy and flase sense of accomplishment...again I laugh...I guess cars has been giving me both these things for the past 4 years lol. I will be volunteeringly moving to EP class soon...let's see how you deal with that one.
I will also ask...does anyone else reading believe what karl is claiming in his posts about me and the reason I disagree about this issue is because how it affects myself?

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby Razkal » April 19th, 2013, 6:57 am

really and truly, i think p/w ratio as a means of classing is the most unbiased way to simply get the job done. i have no problem being classed with Moses and Chris, who are both faster than I am..the thing is, i acknowledge that a monumental increase in my ability is required to really see what the car is capable off..right now my w/p ratio that put me in my current class has some wiggle room. i can still lose a good few pounds or gain a few horses and still remain in class. i already have coilover penalty points..although it's only fronts i have. i use used tires always.
even when my ability improves a bit, i still have some mod room to even things out a bit. I don't think any competitor should be forced or suggested to change class based on out-driving the competition. Last event was the closest i ever came to running in the vicinity of Moses and Chris ( moses mostly) and i'm pretty sure if i had two more runs i could have gone faster, even slightly.

fellas, allyuh sort this shite out quickly eh...i know and respect both you guys and would hate to see small issues muddying the autocross air.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby adriano7910 » April 19th, 2013, 7:21 am

I believe that this has gone from an issue some share to a personal issue between three ppl. Sad though. for that reason alone this entire discussion and my suggestion of more points before a bump for longer and longer wb cars will be thrown out along with the personal attacks.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 19th, 2013, 7:51 am

Akash all I did was point out to maria and karl that the main difference for the large gaps in times from the leaders in each class is because of driver and less car. They are claiming that maybe the cars are not being classed fairly to which I disagree. Like you I totally agree with the power to weight method and I even like adrians idea. Nowhere have I personally attacked any of them so I don't beliebe I owe anybody an apology.

I also pointed out to maria that because she or any other person may not choose to modify their car or can't afford to do it does not mean the rules should be changed. I am open to sharing my knowledge with anyone at solodex to try to help them improve so I have no clue why I am being made out to be this bad person.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 19th, 2013, 10:34 am

The reason i say some, is because i'm not speaking about you specifically CHRIS. It is a general statement, that you choose to take as aimed at you.

I asked you to clarify one thing. more bush beating.
Others making their contributions known. you prefer my attentionl. :S

i don't call your name, or speak to you because you have long had a problem with me, and I try my best to avoid interaction because of that. OK.

so some.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby JDM_GUY » April 19th, 2013, 11:17 am

Leave everything the way it is and lets race...

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 19th, 2013, 12:07 pm

Razkal wrote:really and truly, i think p/w ratio as a means of classing is the most unbiased way to simply get the job done. i have no problem being classed with Moses and Chris, who are both faster than I am..the thing is, i acknowledge that a monumental increase in my ability is required to really see what the car is capable off..right now my w/p ratio that put me in my current class has some wiggle room. i can still lose a good few pounds or gain a few horses and still remain in class. i already have coilover penalty points..although it's only fronts i have. i use used tires always.

umm, for the record the current rules system puts your RX-7 in EPR.
However, your car was reclassed after watching it's BYCC times to where it was thought it would be competitive.

Image

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby MG Man » April 19th, 2013, 12:25 pm

if you gonna start looking at things like wheelbase, where will it end? Are we going to debate the advantage of a front-mid-engined car like the S2000 against a similar RWD car with similar wheelbase, but with the engine mounted further forward in the chassis?
Same for FWD cars..........at what point do we start measuring front and rear overhangs, placement / inclination of engine, unsprung weight etc? My hatch came with lighter factory wheels and brakes than your hatch...omg time to put in a pentalty system to negate the advantage
Yikes my MINI has a heavy sunroof and George's MINI has none......he has an edge with lower C-of-G eeeeeeeek Worse yet, mine is CVT and that fella's SSS is automatic...naaaaaaaaaaaah points for he!!!!!
Hey what the frick? That fella sedan has no airbags.......mine has seven heavy airbags....that no fair *pout*
All I'm saying is where do we draw the line?

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 19th, 2013, 1:25 pm

MG Man wrote:All I'm saying is where do we draw the line?

apparently not at the vehicle's ability to do a simple, easily repeatable test. :|

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby pete » April 19th, 2013, 2:25 pm

We could test your theory at the next BYCC or any afternoon you want to go up to Arima.

Even if there is a vast difference in times for that same test. How would you implement it?

What would be the "best handling car" to set the benchmark? Maybe a go-kart?

10 laps on the go kart takes 60 seconds, 10 laps in my car takes 70 seconds, 10 cars in a new model lancer takes 80 seconds.

What would you do with that data? Multiply the PWR by the ratio of your car to the perfect car to get a new PWR?

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 19th, 2013, 2:29 pm

Why is the power to weight ratio important?
PLEASE click the text below.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby rado » April 19th, 2013, 9:40 pm

chris1388 wrote:Akash all I did was point out to maria and karl that the main difference for the large gaps in times from the leaders in each class is because of driver and less car. They are claiming that maybe the cars are not being classed fairly to which I disagree. Like you I totally agree with the power to weight method and I even like adrians idea. Nowhere have I personally attacked any of them so I don't beliebe I owe anybody an apology.

I also pointed out to maria that because she or any other person may not choose to modify their car or can't afford to do it does not mean the rules should be changed. I am open to sharing my knowledge with anyone at solodex to try to help them improve so I have no clue why I am being made out to be this bad person.


Chris, I really appreciate the views you have shared here. I for one am glad that I'm in the same class with you this year. Having really talented drivers across the classes is a benefit and inspiration to many competitors and a gauge by which we can asses our own development as drivers.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 20th, 2013, 7:28 am

Thanks and no problem richard...anytime.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby Razkal » April 20th, 2013, 8:22 am

wagonrunner wrote:
Razkal wrote:really and truly, i think p/w ratio as a means of classing is the most unbiased way to simply get the job done. i have no problem being classed with Moses and Chris, who are both faster than I am..the thing is, i acknowledge that a monumental increase in my ability is required to really see what the car is capable off..right now my w/p ratio that put me in my current class has some wiggle room. i can still lose a good few pounds or gain a few horses and still remain in class. i already have coilover penalty points..although it's only fronts i have. i use used tires always.

umm, for the record the current rules system puts your RX-7 in EPR.
However, your car was reclassed after watching it's BYCC times to where it was thought it would be competitive.

Image



i seriously urge you to locate my first two registration forms of the 2013 Autocross season and see that i did register for EPR, not as a rookie, for the first bycc and autocross 1. the executive does what they see fit. i just show up and race without giving much of a sheit wrt which class i run.

just observation eh, but if i was reclassed with no consultation, why can't the other 'problematic' drivers/competitors be subject to the same?

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 20th, 2013, 9:19 am

Razkal wrote:
wagonrunner wrote:
Razkal wrote:really and truly, i think p/w ratio as a means of classing is the most unbiased way to simply get the job done. i have no problem being classed with Moses and Chris, who are both faster than I am..the thing is, i acknowledge that a monumental increase in my ability is required to really see what the car is capable off..right now my w/p ratio that put me in my current class has some wiggle room. i can still lose a good few pounds or gain a few horses and still remain in class. i already have coilover penalty points..although it's only fronts i have. i use used tires always.

umm, for the record the current rules system puts your RX-7 in EPR.
However, your car was reclassed after watching it's BYCC times to where it was thought it would be competitive.

i seriously urge you to locate my first two registration forms of the 2013 Autocross season and see that i did register for EPR, not as a rookie, for the first bycc and autocross 1. the executive does what they see fit. i just show up and race without giving much of a sheit wrt which class i run.

just observation eh, but if i was reclassed with no consultation, why can't the other 'problematic' drivers/competitors be subject to the same?

So the suggestion of classing cars where they are seen to be competitive is not a good one then?

SOME competitors are quick to grumble without paying the protest fee. An attempt was made to reclass a WRX before it even ran on sunday. "How that in SS?" Weirdly enough, you weren't a concern. I wonder if it's because they saw what your car could do before.

The results for the previous events can be redone. The other EPR competitor runs in open to constitute the class, so OPEN it is?

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 20th, 2013, 10:43 am

Smh...again with the some ppl...I asked how come the wrx was in ss and trevor calculated the w/p and showed me it was within range and I then acknowledged. I will pay what ever fee you speaking about next time since it was such a big problem.
As to this issue with akash...I didn't even know about it till now. Again trying to make me out as being some kind of trouble maker without calling my name when u full well know it was me that asked the question...but that's your plan all along...so you could then come and throw it back on me saying I choose to believe its me you always speaking of..when it is. All reading seeing who have the real problem with who...so continue. As I said I will pay the fee next time I have a question.
Last edited by chris1388 on April 20th, 2013, 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby ng357 » April 20th, 2013, 10:50 am

i too wondered about it simply because i never saw a subaru in that class before... always saw them in higher classes. I asked about it, just to find out about it. i didnt think any fee had to be paid unless i asked u guys to inspect. when the figures were calculated, everyone went along their business as normal.

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