TriniTuner.com  |  Latest Event:  

Forums

CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Official Solodex Forum -
Please visit www.carstt.com for more info on Autocross (aka Solodex)

Moderators: CarsTT, CARSTT SoloDex, 3ne2nr Mods

User avatar
adriano7910
Riding on 17's
Posts: 1585
Joined: December 28th, 2008, 6:38 pm

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby adriano7910 » April 22nd, 2013, 8:06 pm

a ratio system may work but whose to say that one car with identical wheel base as another will handle the same way with the same p to w on stock suspension. i understand trying to correct for the advantage of the small wheel based cars. saying that, i believe if a wheel based, multiplied ratio has to be implemented then a real proven formula has to be developed that i guess also has to take things like ride height and car height into account also.

Advertisement
User avatar
wagonrunner
TriniTuner 24-7
Posts: 12894
Joined: May 18th, 2004, 9:38 am
Location: Distancing myself from those who want to raid the barn but eh want to plant the corn.
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 22nd, 2013, 9:19 pm

chris1388 wrote:I asked karl and maria a question a while back and niether replied. Explain the difference in the championship shootout years past where the winner's time was significantly better than say the lower end of the results. I for one remember ryan pinheiro finding time that noone else cud find with vishnus b14. Please explain.
Also ryan peyrau took the stock swift sport the year lifestyle sponsored one for the shootout. Amir won that year. Peyrau took the car after ALL the competitors used it and blew the winning time out of the water.
have you answered my question?
what is it you want me to explain?
wagonrunner wrote:I have always had an issue with this because I don't understand how two vehicles with the same P/W ratio and a difference in length of 2 feet plus could be expected to handle the same in a dexterity race.

It does indeed favor some.
Do you find the reason "that's how it was done in the past" to be a reason why it can't be questioned?
Look at the dates in this, if not the content.

therefore you're saying the "winners" weren't really winners?

I asked you this three times prior.
wagonrunner wrote:
chris1388 wrote:All that being said....Pete came up with a nice idea but I don't think the rules should be changed for something like that. I think those questioning the rules should take up the offer I outlined before trying to crunch numbers and come up with a "length correction factor".

so to clarify, you agree with the following?
two vehicles with the same P/W ratio and a difference in length of 2 feet plus could be expected to handle the same in a dexterity race.

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 23rd, 2013, 7:35 am

I have been trying to open that link from my phone since u posted it but until I get home from work I won't be able to....it just not opening on the fone for some reason.

Karl, I do believe that the shorter wheel base car is better suited for tight corners and pete brought forward an interesting idea but will that cause more confusion than good in the classes than there is now? I believe it will...it will take very long to perfect, the sport will lose competitors just when we seeing a few more new faces you all want to come and spoil things with this re-classing thing. I find the current system effective...it may not be 100percent flawless but karl as amir mentioned not all the courses are tight...some tighter some faster with less corners...I believe this evens things out and the system is fair as can be right now....the way you talk is like we shud have over 100 classes...one for each type and make and model car....is that practical or makes sense ? You mentioned what cadiz said...but why didn't you go ask if that car was in a special class with only cars like itself in it? The answer will be no because that is not catered for as a classing justification in ANY form of motorsport... It seems a stock car series is what you want to turn dex into...so is bess we all go and buy a b13 to solve your problem.
Imagine the future if you change the rules to what YOU deem as fair....a brand new competitor comes in with say a his brand new suzuki swift...comes to us for classing and we reply "oh well certain competitors in the past used similar cars and they were capable of beating evos with them so we've decided to put cars like these in a much higger class. You really think you Gonna gain and the sport gonna grow with a response like that?

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 23rd, 2013, 7:40 am

My entire argument in this thread is focused around the fact that in OUR case at solodex and for the results WE are seeing in solodex is much more due to driver than it is this car and short car and short wheel base argument...but you and maria it seem refuse to believe this...so if it ever comes to what you guys wanna do then be my guest....I assure you we will lose many competitors and gain even fewer new ones.
It is not such a big advantage as the gaps in times make it out to be and my opionion is the rules or classing does not need to change because of that. I believe the rules are fair and if the other competitors improve driving and tires then take advantage of the mods that can be done then the gaps will be greatly reduced and even overcome.

User avatar
pete
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 9355
Joined: April 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm
Location: Cruisin around in da GTi
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby pete » April 23rd, 2013, 9:48 am

Just to go back a couple years, when Rudi was racing against me, his car is bigger and had a little better PWR and in some events he would win, others I would win. The PWRs were close. In the ES class now you have the auto swift sport which is close to the top of the ES power band and the other cars are almost at the bottom.

22 vs 25.1+

The swift sport suspension is also very good compared to the other cars in ES and Anthony has good tyres on. So you have a combination of three things which will make the car faster that other cars in the class. It's not just the length difference. If the cars that had 25+ pwr's boost their power or drop some weight to get down to 20, put on sport suspension and install good tyres their times should then be competitive.

Maybe we could narrow the bands for the classes and see which cars fall where and see if the times would be more competitive. Like HS 25-30, ES 21-25, ESP 17-21, SS 13-17, EP 11-13 and EPR quicker than that?

User avatar
wagonrunner
TriniTuner 24-7
Posts: 12894
Joined: May 18th, 2004, 9:38 am
Location: Distancing myself from those who want to raid the barn but eh want to plant the corn.
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 23rd, 2013, 10:11 am

wow, so finally like blacktriple_s, you agree.

isn't that why there's a rookie status. chase what's possible.
as for beating evo's, is that a stock car?
so a stock Swift sport novice should expect to do what a modified car does?
and a modified novice should beat up on other cars it can clearly outhandle, and not chase it's true potential?

And that's the fair way, which would grow the sport?
So essentialy, you find the fair way to be a biased Suzuki competition?

for me dex was to bring anything and race, their will be be gaps that can't be overcome, but the gap between good drivers shouldnt be that big.
pete wrote:Maybe we could narrow the bands for the classes and see which cars fall where and see if the times would be more competitive. Like HS 25-30, ES 21-25, ESP 17-21, SS 13-17, EP 11-13 and EPR quicker than that?

which leads to my second quesiton. why shouldn't the gaps in ranges be uniform?

User avatar
pete
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 9355
Joined: April 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm
Location: Cruisin around in da GTi
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby pete » April 23rd, 2013, 10:41 am

I had previously suggested that we start from a basic car and apply points from there.

OEM sport suspension - points
OEM front sway bar - points
OEM rear sway bar - points

Aftermarket for each, more points. I gave the example of a civic hatchback. Basic model won't handle that well but if you put on SiR or Type R suspension all around it will handle much better. So if you put those parts on and it got points (as you have upgraded the suspension) then maybe a stock type r should also get the same points? Original civic has small brakes, type R brakes are bigger, points for that. Aftermarket brakes more points.

Apply that to my swift. I have an aftermarket rear sway bar, 2 points. Stock front sway bar - 1 point. I have swift sport shocks and springs maybe that would be another 2 points and I'm up to 5 points over a "stock" car that would have none of those things. All which make the car handle better.

According to the rules, right now I only get 2 points for the rear sway bar. You can use any shock you want and the springs are not lowering springs. In fact I think the car got higher. Maybe this would help classify the cars but then again.. who can say what "sport" OEM suspension is and how can you tell?

WRT the gaps being uniform, I have no idea why they aren't but right now ES and ESP are the widest ones with differences of 6 where SS and EP are only different by 2 and 1.

User avatar
wagonrunner
TriniTuner 24-7
Posts: 12894
Joined: May 18th, 2004, 9:38 am
Location: Distancing myself from those who want to raid the barn but eh want to plant the corn.
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby wagonrunner » April 23rd, 2013, 10:53 am

pete the point system to me is another fallacy.

does any mod increase all cars performance so uniformly, that the penalty could be?

User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 20995
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby MG Man » April 23rd, 2013, 10:54 am

I can't possibly see the gaps being down to car alone..............time for folks to put egos aside and admit some drivers are frickin awesome and others are just ok, and then there's me and Kurt :-p
Karl, you know what I think about your car, and yet, look at your results when you competed.......were the results driver or car?
You see how crappy the results for the HSR are.........but I am willing to bet in the hands of Narend or Kirk, it would be 3 seconds faster on any given course...so what do I do? Moan and goran that my ESP car doesn't have ABS, sticky tyres, slick shifter etc, or just admit I'm crosseyed and bringing a crossbow to a gunfight?
Re the figure 8 idea, it makes sense in principle, but how does it work in practical application?
Do we have the Stig drive each car at the start of the year? What happens for new drivers at each event who didn't get their car Stigrated?
Will cars be expected to adhere to their 'qualifying trim' all thru the year? ie Tyre sizes, tyre pressures, tyre condition, fuel load etc
What happens when someone has an odd car that they might drive better than the stig? Would the Stig's time still count, if I can find an extra two seconds over him simply because I have more seat time in my specific car?

User avatar
pete
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 9355
Joined: April 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm
Location: Cruisin around in da GTi
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby pete » April 23rd, 2013, 11:06 am

wagonrunner wrote:pete the point system to me is another fallacy.

does any mod increase all cars performance so uniformly, that the penalty could be?


To be honest I didn't feel any difference with the rear sway bar. Maybe it's because the car has a solid rear axle but to me the bar didn't stiffen it up much. I had decided I would take it out if I was going to put coilovers as it was unnecessary left it in with the swift sport suspension. So to answer the question, no, each mod doesn't improve performance uniformly from one car to another. :)

User avatar
Razkal
2NRholic
Posts: 4838
Joined: May 30th, 2004, 2:33 am
Location: Gone Fishing...
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby Razkal » April 23rd, 2013, 11:32 am

karl, at this point i'm really trying to make sense of your aruments eh..

the classing system is balls, the point-penalty for modification system is balls, the pwr ranges within classes are balls....so whats the point of putting on events this year then??

i say the penalty system works for how dynamic and encompassing it needs to be. drivers are aware certain mods will bring you penalty points, its up to YOU to decide which mod actually helps your cause to get faster instead of prettying up your parts list and collecting you penalties. just having mods won't help either, setting the car up properly to take advantage of the extras is the only way to make it make sense.

i agree 2000% with MGs post also, he took the words straight off my keyboard..

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 23rd, 2013, 11:41 am

pete wrote:The swift sport suspension is also very good compared to the other cars in ES and Anthony has good tyres on. So you have a combination of three things which will make the car faster that other cars in the class. It's not just the length difference. If the cars that had 25+ pwr's boost their power or drop some weight to get down to 20, put on sport suspension and install good tyres their times should then be competitive.


Direzza star specs to be precise which are one of THE BEST autocross street tires you can purchase and which I might add are completely legal by treadware for him to use in ES together with the fact that the swift sport has a better power to weight ratio than the other cars in ES and he is an excellent driver and you karl find it surprising that there was a substantial gap in the times? And both you and maria are of the belief that the "cars may not be being classed properly" and furthermore using the justification of car length and wheel base for the gap and the reason the rule should be changed???
And then amongst all this maria had the audacity to say "what if the other competitors choose not to modify their car?" Then DON"T expect to win if you CHOOSE not to do what it takes WITHIN the rules to either improve your power to weight OR get better tires like Anthony did OR improve driving in order to win. What is this a free for all? If that is the case then come and drive and have fun like MANY others do at dex and do not expect to win. You expect to bring about a CHANGE in rules which would see the swift sport or any other similar car cast out of ES simply because NO OTHER ES competitors chooses to take the challenge up within the rules to catch him? And furthermore using the justification of this non sense one man car short and one man car long as a basis for going about it????
Are you for REAL??
Nowhere did I intend to come across like I want it to be Suzuki biased but you are victimising the Suzuki drivers and by extension anyone with a small car with this short car crap and I WILL NOT sit and let it happen because it is not right.
The power to weight method is an effective way of classing the cars in my opinion and it does not need to be cast out and changed because YOU find their to be a seemingly unexplained gap in times when its simply not the case. I do however take your point on the non-uniformity of the ranges...maybe THIS is something that can be looked at instead of this short car thing.

User avatar
adriano7910
Riding on 17's
Posts: 1585
Joined: December 28th, 2008, 6:38 pm

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby adriano7910 » April 23rd, 2013, 1:23 pm

well to be honest a short car does infact have a advantage so to place a small penalty towards a small wheel based car or a small reward in favor of a long car would do no harm.

i still propose the increase in points awarded to long wheel based cars or a decrease to short wheel based cars to stay in class. but it has to be within reason. eg 1 point reward/deduction for GS, HS, ES.....2 points for ESP, SS, EP......and 3 points to RWD cars in EPR and Open but Non To 4WD

i also think that the classing should have equal gaps for the P/w

User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 20995
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby MG Man » April 23rd, 2013, 1:50 pm

adriano7910 wrote:well to be honest a short car does infact have a advantage so to place a small penalty towards a small wheel based car or a small reward in favor of a long car would do no harm.[/b]



see now again, this line of thinking will raise other issues...............let's say I show up in my mid-engined sports car and demolish my class (no 'be serious Kevin, you cya drive' jokes pls), then what? Separate points for mid-engine simply because it allows my car to rotate better? But then my mid-engine car has no ABS, so do I get a points reprieve?
My HSR should be allowed to run in ES rather than ESP because I am at a disadvantage with no ABS, no power steering and inferior brakes..........see how ridiculous that sounds?
The question should really be how much of an advantage does a Swift's wheelbase give over a Lancer.......surely nothing significantly big enough to justify the gaps Karl has identified...........and just to jump ship a bit, how do you wheelbase folks explain KIrk's results in D&W with a heavy VeeDub sedan?

User avatar
pete
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 9355
Joined: April 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm
Location: Cruisin around in da GTi
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby pete » April 23rd, 2013, 1:57 pm

It has plenty power.

User avatar
xauss
3NE 2NR for life
Posts: 239
Joined: December 12th, 2006, 8:15 pm
Location: Under BOOST
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby xauss » April 23rd, 2013, 2:12 pm

A WILD xauss APPEARS...

*reads rants*

A WILD xauss DISAPPEARS... :stalk:

ng357
3NE 2NR for life
Posts: 232
Joined: August 15th, 2010, 5:32 pm

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby ng357 » April 23rd, 2013, 3:03 pm

with respect to the lesser point bump for bigger cars, as pete says and im not sure if this is the case for all. But i have noticed that for example strut bars seem to help people with bigger cars more significantly than those with shorter cars. So that in itself is an advantage because shorter cars are paying the same penalty for less of a handling gain. If the penalty points were to be decreased for bigger cars, it needs to be done carefully in order to be fair. I have no problem with that...... I dont think the issue of small cars make such a significant gain. as some1 said earlier, maria is at the bottom of the class white anthony is at the top. This sometimes happens and its up to that person to either step up to the plate, remain as is n improve skill, orrrrr decrease power or add weight to go in a lower class lol. in maria's case i dont think anyone is in HS class so that may not be possible.
All in all, please do not complicate matters, the sport is fun and yes many new faces are showing up! this is my first year being involved in the event and I love it.
On a side note, in the SS class, akash's time was faster than many of the smaller cars even one with racing tires (on the front only) also a novice with a long car (subaru) was close wrt to times.

User avatar
whizpig
Sweet on this forum
Posts: 316
Joined: February 4th, 2010, 6:05 am
Location: Arouca

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby whizpig » April 23rd, 2013, 3:04 pm

Razkal wrote:the classing system is balls, the point-penalty for modification system is balls, the pwr ranges within classes are balls....so whats the point of putting on events this year then??

The same reason we do it every year Razkal . . . cause racing is fun (remember the R in C.A.R.S. means recreation).

so several pages later we can all agree that the classification system and all of its facets are flawed and would be very difficult to make fair to all (short of everyone driving the same car, with sufficient time in between runs to accommodate tyre, and oil changes + engine cool downs). So lets just go have some fun and hopefully learn something from the better drivers.

User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 20995
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby MG Man » April 23rd, 2013, 3:12 pm

I think you didn't quite get razzie's sarcasm there piggos :-p
but yeah, you got it right, while the system is flawed in some areas, no system will be perfect, but this current framework strikes up a pretty decent compromise

In the meantime, Ilook forward to Karls proposal for a working Stig-model for classification. It surely merits further investigation. In the meantime, Maria can buy my Mini Cooper, but with the CVT, it still won't beat Anthony's SSS ^_^

User avatar
Razkal
2NRholic
Posts: 4838
Joined: May 30th, 2004, 2:33 am
Location: Gone Fishing...
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby Razkal » April 23rd, 2013, 3:23 pm

xauss wrote:A WILD xauss APPEARS...

*reads rants*

A WILD xauss DISAPPEARS... :stalk:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

i'm ashamed i'm informed enough to find this hilarious :oops:

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 23rd, 2013, 3:37 pm

Well if this wheelbase argument thing ever makes it to a rule change I gonna buy a GTR and come ask to run it in ES because its long.

User avatar
adriano7910
Riding on 17's
Posts: 1585
Joined: December 28th, 2008, 6:38 pm

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby adriano7910 » April 23rd, 2013, 6:15 pm

i dont agree with any penalties either but if one ever was to be implemented i'd think that penalty increase will be the least invasive to the current standings.

User avatar
María
3NE 2NR for life
Posts: 204
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 8:34 pm

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby María » April 23rd, 2013, 7:12 pm

careful how you using my name christopher. kindly quote my post that said this discussion precedes a rule change...nowhere did i say i had intention of changing the classification rules but u can point it out to me since u believe that so wholeheartedly. before you express what you think are my views make sure they are exactly that

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby chris1388 » April 23rd, 2013, 8:09 pm

Noted maria and I do apologize for that....all im saying is that there is no issue in the method by which the cars are classed currently....that is power to weight. As I indicated to move past all of this...maybe looking at the ranges within each class could make more sense.

User avatar
María
3NE 2NR for life
Posts: 204
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 8:34 pm

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby María » April 23rd, 2013, 8:45 pm

discussions are welcome, i just hope we all do out part to keep them focused and constructive. wrt the ranges i don't know how to start. perhaps we need to hear from someone who was part of the decision to expand/contract the ranges for the reasoning behind it or we could determine what ranges would work best but we need some sort of "method to the madness"

jus my 2c

User avatar
Dave
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 14309
Joined: April 22nd, 2003, 8:07 am
Location: playing with above and below
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby Dave » April 25th, 2013, 11:12 am

And seeing I am the only person with this issue, Devi suggested i raise it.
I compete with cars that have ABS and have the ability to brake much later than I can. When I do I lock up and slide.
Yeah yeah my ABS fell out.

User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 20995
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby MG Man » April 25th, 2013, 1:15 pm

Suck it up buddy. I been racing without ABS since day one ('cept when I run the mini)
:-p
The HSR has been run both in ESP and SS with no abs, rear drums and no power steering. The way people fussing now, looks like everybody needs their own class

User avatar
Dave
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 14309
Joined: April 22nd, 2003, 8:07 am
Location: playing with above and below
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby Dave » April 25th, 2013, 1:50 pm

Different day and age. Bring the ole cars back and we can make a plea.
If concession is given to ppl and classes this is something to be considered also since it can also be seen as unfair within the brackets.

User avatar
pete
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 9355
Joined: April 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm
Location: Cruisin around in da GTi
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby pete » April 25th, 2013, 3:39 pm

Only time the ABS activates in my low powered car is really going into the finish box. With those big brembos on an evo I could see it being a problem other places on the course.

User avatar
Dave
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 14309
Joined: April 22nd, 2003, 8:07 am
Location: playing with above and below
Contact:

Re: CARS AUTOCROSS SUNDAY 7TH APRIL

Postby Dave » April 25th, 2013, 3:55 pm

You know Pete, the i have to baby through the course and the last time when my tyres were literally giving up, I broke late and spun out.
Locking up in finish box is a normal thing and because of that non abs fact, I can't use an aggressive brake compound.

Advertisement

Return to “CARS - Autocross (Solodex)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests