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Proposed 2014 rule changes

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 4th, 2013, 12:21 pm

pete, you may onto somethign there.
MG Man wrote:U can 't say similarly classes cars should perform similarly. I have seen cases where the class leader is simply leagues ahead in terms of skill, and it is represented by his or her times. If I gave Kirk my mini , do you think he would be running last in class?
So what then?
Remember when Kirk used to share licks in a CVT honda?

So if Kirk drove cars that are classed as performing the same...................... and they don't perform the same, what would you say about the car's classing?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 4th, 2013, 12:48 pm

I'd say the variable is the driver. My ESP car does GS times in my hands. Does that mean the car is wrongly classes or is it that my skills are lacking?
If Kirk wins ESP in my car, does it mean he is driving beyond the mechanical level of the car? I'd say not.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 4th, 2013, 12:59 pm

did you not understand my question? well done.

anyhoo, I mentioned a shift of P/W to suit the opinion of the masses, and my point of view of same opinion.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby chris1388 » October 4th, 2013, 12:59 pm

So what if kirks drives both cars and attains different results...ie one does better than one. What does that say? All it says is that one car is better equipped from factory than the other. Your argue meant makes no sense in my opinion because all you have suggested is making the ranges between classes even and adjusting the ranges from class to class. How does that address your issue? Their will always be a car more to the top of the range and another more to the bottom. You seem like you want a class for every make model and type of car so that cars run like a stock car series. The less capable cars either use their alotted points to modify and try to close the gap to the cars at the top of the class if the driver really wants to win or shut up, it is as simple as that in my opinion.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 4th, 2013, 1:07 pm

Yup
No matter the system, somebody's gonna be a back marker.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 4th, 2013, 1:31 pm

chris1388 wrote:So what if kirks drives both cars and attains different results...ie one does better than one. What does that say? All it says is that one car is better equipped from factory than the other. Your argue meant makes no sense in my opinion because all you have suggested is making the ranges between classes even and adjusting the ranges from class to class. How does that address your issue? Their will always be a car more to the top of the range and another more to the bottom. You seem like you want a class for every make model and type of car so that cars run like a stock car series. The less capable cars either use their alotted points to modify and try to close the gap to the cars at the top of the class if the driver really wants to win or shut up, it is as simple as that in my opinion.
I understand there will be a range. Isn't the idea to fit similarly ranged cars in a class (comprehension - "similar" vs "same")? oops nope. pointless my bad. :roll:

:| the point isn't to address my issue. I am willing to work with the method of the majority (does that mean I have to agree with it?).

I am suggesting instead of multiplying the figure tested on the dyno, adjust the classes, and use the dyno'd figure.
missed that? yes?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 4th, 2013, 3:18 pm

I agree with using the dynofigs
I never saw the point of working it back up to bhp :-/

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby chris1388 » October 4th, 2013, 4:15 pm

What difference does it make using the dyno figures or multiplying it by 1.15.....the multiplication is consistent across and is applied to all 2wd cars. So all the 2wd cars change by the same factor. Note I not saying is a bad idea to use just the whp figure I just don't see the advantage. The only way I see this makig sense is when u compare 2wd to 4wd

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 4th, 2013, 4:21 pm

Which would carry right back to the range placement? ent
but if you going with a formula, why flaw it with a constant which may not be true? Auto / manual / cvt don't all have same powertrain losses, yet all at same ratio? :?

A tested figure vs a guestimated drive train loss? .......................................................................

anyone wanna let me pm them, and they post, since this source causes blindness? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 5th, 2013, 8:34 pm

Since we talking classification, wasn't Vishnu 's MX3 with the 1.8 and 17" croams put is SS?
How come that 2.0 MX3 racing car in ESP ?????
Who made that call?
Wagonrunnrr ent you does scrutineer?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 5th, 2013, 9:28 pm

MG Man wrote:Wagonrunnrr ent you does scrutineer?
you break a rubbermaid and want a replacement orrrr?
ent you know I'm a do nothing gumbumper.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=530316&p=7476665&

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » October 6th, 2013, 7:14 am

Vishnus car was probably incorrectly classed before and he decided to just stay in SS. It could be in SS on race tyres but he ran on street tyres I believe.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 6th, 2013, 7:32 am

Still, how'd they arrive at ESP for the yellow one?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby chris1388 » October 6th, 2013, 8:11 am

That is a good question mg Man I was wondering the same.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 6th, 2013, 9:41 am

The AGM should be interesting

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » October 6th, 2013, 12:33 pm

How you mean how? The w.p ratio is 17.1 even if it had lowering Springs and sway bar that still is just three Points. The car is on good tyres and is driven well. I dont see the problem with the car being in esp right now.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby chris1388 » October 6th, 2013, 2:42 pm

Does it have a LSD? Are the brakes upgraded? Does it have upgraded front and or rear sway? Does it have springs alone or a full coil over setup? 4 points is very easy to rack up and hence a class bump.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 6th, 2013, 11:20 pm

MG Man wrote:The AGM should be interesting
i too love where this is going.

In the link i posted above, the car has 0 penalty points. The examiners say the car has 0 penalty points.
So if what you all notice is true, how can this be?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » October 7th, 2013, 7:37 am

I've never really looked. Car doesn't look that low and it rolls a lot IMHO so it may not have any suspension upgrade. All that seems to have been done is to lighten it. It was only 2220lbs when weighed. I'm pretty sure if I had the same R1R tyres I would do similar times and my car is heavier and has a lot less power.

How do you test a car to see if it has an LSD?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby chris1388 » October 7th, 2013, 9:31 am

Sayin the car looks like it rolls a lot and that you would be close had you had better tires does not answer the question is the car classes correctly based on a proper scrutinization and point tally as per the rules. Fair is fair at the end of the day, the fact that Karl has pointed out the car has zero penalty points awarded to it is quite strange. At the end off he day if the fellow competitors in esp have no problems with the car being in that class then so be it who am I to question. I just found it strange

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » October 7th, 2013, 10:04 am

If the car is completely gutted, on stock suspension, drivetrain and brakes it would have 0 points.

If I took my rear sway bar out it would have zero points too. I can't say what happened when it came to dyno on the day, as I wasn't there. I'm sure the people scrutineering the car on the day would've looked for all that. If I thought the car was unfairly classed I would have protested as I'm in the same class. I don't think it is :|

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby chris1388 » October 7th, 2013, 11:08 am

Fair enough....had I been in that class I would have lodged an official query but I'm not.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 7th, 2013, 11:29 am

I don't care either way personally. I get bested by cars in lower classes all the time :-p
I just noticed a lot of new drivers and experience has shown newbies may have issues but in many cases, just don't come back, rather than ask a question :-/

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » October 7th, 2013, 11:48 am

Back to rule changes..

Any penalty for e-manage etc?

With that surely you could have a low power tune and crank it up for competition. Even put in cams and retain stock rev limit and for competition crank it up from 6500 to 8500 RPM and make lots more power.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 7th, 2013, 12:33 pm

how can you tell that's taking place (emanage). yes it's a possibility.
but as long as results have no bearing in a cars classing, aren't you open to such?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » October 7th, 2013, 12:38 pm

I mean, same way there's a penalty for a boost controller. Cause nobody could say if you dyno at 10psi you won't bump it up to 25psi to race.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 7th, 2013, 1:38 pm

I guess. but as you mention tuning,
Lets say two vehicles of same model, so weight / suspension etc same, even same horsepower.
So by W/P rules they're in the same class, but this is the merged dyno graph.
Is there a difference in performance between car 1 and car 2?

Image

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » October 7th, 2013, 3:30 pm

Car 1 may have too much wheelspin to get any power down :|

That's actually what I was hoping for if I ever put a turbo in my car.. some small turbo for nice torque low down but not too much up top.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 7th, 2013, 3:38 pm

:lol: so sticky tires and or 4wd on to negate wheelspin and...................... ?

another example
Image
yeah a 10k rpm car raced at dex already. just an example.

Oho, RPM increase over time is the same for all instances.

Same question with same models / weights / penalties / etc.....
Is CAR1's performance going be the same as CAR2's?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby zakowski » October 8th, 2013, 4:29 pm

I agree with Pete's points because in my case my car is classed as an Esp car but i decided to run in SS so competition wise how much different it is in terms of the rest of competitors ability to keep pace? .If you look at it really the man knows his equipment and he can drive it with a good degree of finese and is able to deliver.If you have issue with it protest it , which is covered in our regs.

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