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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 8th, 2013, 10:43 pm
by MG Man
Where can members access the regs?

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 8th, 2013, 11:02 pm
by wagonrunner
possibly the same place members can get questions answered. ie: not here.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 9th, 2013, 7:30 am
by MG Man
Deja vu

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 9th, 2013, 11:23 am
by pete

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 9th, 2013, 12:07 pm
by pete
Ya know I never looked at the new rules for this year.

Traction control System - Aftermarket - 2 point penalty (Only aftermarket? does that refer to launch control? Is aftermarket traction control better in Autocross than stock TCS where available???)

V-TEC Controllers - Any - 2 point penalty
At the start of the rules they say that VTEC controllers won't affect the maximum power but will affect power delivery. Why isn't it "ALL PROGRAMMABLE ECU - 2 points"?

Alternate Gear Ratios - 3 point penalty
Really? 3 whole points for different gear ratios? Does this mean if I change gearboxes to one with different ratios I get these 3 points?

Upgraded brakes Calipers / rotors size increase - 2 point penalty
Seems Harsh, I'd say 1 point

Boost Controller - 3 points penalty
Also seems harsh. Does this mean that if I have a boost controller I can dyno the car on low boost and run high boost for competition?

I know that with a turbo car changing the boost levels may make a huge difference on the Dyno, so to would tuning.

I think there should be something in there about "fair play", that it is expected that persons will be honest when subjecting there car for testing that if they make improvements will notify the executive and can make respective changes to classification. I personally would hope that people wouldn't lie about their modifications just to win.

At the same time I find the penalties for some of these modifications are rediculous as they don't really increase the performance the same as other modifications.

For example, lowering springs at 1 point vs coilovers at 3 points. Lowering springs alone would make a big difference, the difference from lowering springs to coilovers would not really be much.

Rear sway bar - 2 points. Not going to make twice the difference of lowering springs. I personally didn't notice any difference with mine.

LSD - 2 points. May allow you to put a little more power down but still wouldn't make as much difference as lowering springs.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 9th, 2013, 2:42 pm
by Razkal
holy hell...that's why i have 12 penalty points and obviously cannot be competitive in open or EPR, where by the rules, i should be.

2-rear sway bar
3-coilovers (front only)
3- boost controller
2- upgraded brakes
1- lowering springs (rear only)
1- intercooler

i think i'll ditch the boost controller next season, get an external wastegate with a 12psi spring (current boost level) and have 3 whole points to play with, i can also throw on the complete set of coilovers (front and rear) and lose the penalty for lowering springs.

since my brakes and sway bars are oem items that i've accumulated penalties for, i assume that upgrading them to bigger items won't affect the points i've already racked up on their behalf...correct? i'll still be on 8 penalty points, which STILL puts me in EPR though... sonoffabitch! :|

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 9th, 2013, 2:59 pm
by wagonrunner
the same rules that were agreed to and therefore strongly defended. :| what were you agreeing to?
guess that'll go on the same list as my two other questions.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 9th, 2013, 9:18 pm
by MG Man
Razzy if your brakes and sway bars are OEM, they will not attract points...unless I am grossly mistaken

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 10th, 2013, 6:56 am
by Razkal
well...by oem, i mean oem FC3S (2nd gen) equipment. which my car was upgraded, using the front subframe and rear subframe. so i understand that the penalties will be given as they weren't original equipment on MY car.

my question lies in, if i were to ditch those oem bits and replace them with say....evo7 brembos (which happen to bolt onto FC hubs) and thicker rear sway and slightly thicker front sway...more penalties? or same?

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 10th, 2013, 7:10 am
by chris1388
I disagree with Pete's comment that coil overs vs springs is not a big difference. I personally switched from springs to coil over and there is a significant difference in handling of the car. In addition most coil overs allow u to bias the cars handling characteristics via dampening control which can't be done with springs alone. So 3 points is just IMO. I don't think I would be half as quick if I did not have my coil overs.

As it stands the only mod I have is the coil overs for 3 points. Next year I will be volunteering moving up in class again to EP and trying to win the championship.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 10th, 2013, 7:45 am
by pete
Raz, you shouldn't get points for lowering springs AND coilovers, it would just be the coilovers alone.

WRT the boost controller, good idea but I don't find people should have to endure such a stiff penalty when they're honest. How much power does the car make on the original wastegate pressure vs 12psi?

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 10th, 2013, 9:56 am
by MG Man
Razkal wrote:well...by oem, i mean oem FC3S (2nd gen) equipment. which my car was upgraded, using the front subframe and rear subframe. so i understand that the penalties will be given as they weren't original equipment on MY car.

my question lies in, if i were to ditch those oem bits and replace them with say....evo7 brembos (which happen to bolt onto FC hubs) and thicker rear sway and slightly thicker front sway...more penalties? or same?



should be the same because your OEM bits really are the same as aftermrket upgrades
You replacing penalty point bits with penalty points bits.....so the car should remain with the same points

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 11th, 2013, 2:11 pm
by pete
Question: If I dyno with nitrous can I use it for the year?

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 11th, 2013, 4:03 pm
by Razkal
original power output at 7psi stock wastegate pressure was near 150whp..thats with 3" exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump and pressure regulator.

with boost controller set at 12psi, car now makes 200whp.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: October 11th, 2013, 6:11 pm
by Razkal
ust for info sake, i changed my boost controller since the CARS dyno day earlier this year...while on the dyno, doing the regular 3rd gear pull boost started spiking wayyyy past 12psi and my graph shows a run with 200whp and 220+ft/lb...while that was awesome, my lil turbo can't support that.

200whp is probably as much as i can get out of that oem turbo unit. so even if i crank the controller on race days, i most likely will just fry the motor really quickly.



what about water/meth injection? penalty points for that too? i intend to use the system at year's end, primarily for cooling purposes, my car runs into 180F temps way too easily. at the same safc2 'tune' the car's probably going to make maybe 10-12whp additional with the water/meth i estimate.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 10th, 2013, 11:58 pm
by wagonrunner
Just got a PM from an interesting source.
SS / EP persons may get to look out for something in 2014.
A short wheel base, turbo charged, stock LSD and Nissan ATTESSA system.

which reminds me, any issue with vehicles with rear wheel steering assist (Nissan cars with HICAS, Honda Preludes, etc)?
Image

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 9:16 am
by adriano7910
the diff btn lowering springs and coilovers is huge. as i usually do ill show an example. stock lev non vtec very thin civic shock with lowering springs make little diff. the car still rolls and leans like a drunk.

while coilovers in civic i've driven body roll is almost gone and car handles sig better.... both had no sway bars or strut bars to assist.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 9:19 am
by adriano7910
also i think higher classed base cars should have a greater first class bump penalty higher than the lower classes.

eg. i doubt lets say a stock wrx with oem lsd and coilovers (class bump) can compete against a (stock) sti on coilovers alone.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 10:37 am
by moti
pete wrote:Raz, you shouldn't get points for lowering springs AND coilovers, it would just be the coilovers alone.




Was wondering the same when Razkal mentioned it above.

And just so that I don't get my panties in a bunch, stock LSD etc accumulates points?

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 11:33 am
by wagonrunner
adriano7910 wrote:also i think higher classed base cars should have a greater first class bump penalty higher than the lower classes.

eg. i doubt lets say a stock wrx with oem lsd and coilovers (class bump) can compete against a (stock) sti on coilovers alone.

but isn't the effect consistently inconsistent? that is all named mods do not improve all cars handling the same. or to similar competitiveness
moti wrote:stock LSD etc accumulates points
currently correct.
It is an advantage over a non equipped stock car.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 11:58 am
by moti
wagonrunner wrote:
moti wrote:stock LSD etc accumulates points
currently correct.
It is an advantage over a non equipped stock car.



But I don't comprehend.
Bear with me here, but it's stock.

So if I were to change it to some "brand" name although it does the same as the stock version would that add more points?
Or if I were to remove the LSD and weld a regular diff would that still accumulate points?

And why can't I just have two points instead of three for only front coilovers?


Thank god I will be on crappy F/Used tyres for now.

So how much points I looking at here?

Coilovers (front only)
Drop Springs (rear only)
Upper strut bar (front only)
Stock LSD

Non turbo.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 4:00 pm
by ng357
For sure the points for shock upgrade and Coilover should need be the same as It is now. Advantages are more in coilovers surely.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 4:04 pm
by wagonrunner
stock car vs stock lsd car vs aftermarket lsd car.

imagine the same model car. in those three trims.
where would the advantages be present?

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 4:12 pm
by MG Man
in the best driver

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 5:31 pm
by ng357
Stock LSD and aftermarket LSD same driver same car wud make a difference in autocross? Sorry if its a stupid Q, but I don't think it will....... Correct me if I'm wrong

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 5:41 pm
by wagonrunner
I don't think you're wrong.

The determination was an LSD equipped car has an advantage over a non LSD equipped car.
doesn't matter OEM or aftermarket.
Hence points once it has LSD in current rules

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 7:34 pm
by moti
Yeah, but how much points would I accumulate with my current set up.

i.e.

Coilovers (front only)
Drop Springs (rear only)
Upper strut bar (front only)
Stock LSD

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 7:42 pm
by wagonrunner

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 7:43 pm
by ng357
wagonrunner wrote:I don't think you're wrong.

The determination was an LSD equipped car has an advantage over a non LSD equipped car.
doesn't matter OEM or aftermarket.
Hence points once it has LSD in current rules


Ok well I think there will be an advantage but how much is dependent on a few factors.

Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 7:54 pm
by moti
Great, that's 7 points.
Which means what? SS..........damn


Hate those points