TriniTuner.com  |  Latest Event:  

Forums

Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Official Solodex Forum -
Please visit www.carstt.com for more info on Autocross (aka Solodex)

Moderators: CarsTT, CARSTT SoloDex, 3ne2nr Mods

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby chris1388 » September 22nd, 2014, 12:02 pm

So I am going to write this post and who ever vex loss because we can't have honest competitors who are following all the rules and then have others who are blatantly cheating and further more have people scrutineer on the day and not picking up on obvious infringements that would put cars in higher classes than they are requesting to be put in.

This is the second time I have had to point out cars that have been incorrectly classed to the officials and I think something needs to be done to put a stop to this. Had I not said anything nothing would have been done. Clearly leaving it open to honesty by the drivers is not working because these two times that I pointed out errors the drivers are well aware of what their cars have yet said nothing.

Yesterday a subaru impreza was put in SS class, the argument being the car was classed there from the beginning of the year. It is clear that work has been done to this car from that time to now and it is no longer an SS car, my guess is not even an EP car. The car has from what I understand at least coil over suspension which puts 3 points on it immediately, it only requires one more point to be put out of SS and into EP. I think the people doing the srcutineering need to be more aware and when a car like this is within 1 point of being bumped extra attention needs to be placed. A simple knowledge of what carries points could have easily seen this car has other mods that will surely add 1 more penalty point and put it out of SS class yet this was not done and the car allowed to run SS on the day.

The car in question not only needs to be scrutineered properly for modifications as per the solodex penalty point system but it also needs to be re-dyno'd to establish base class since I know the car is much quicker than it was at the beginning of the year, you don't even need a dyno to notice that. If paying the protest fee is required to do that I am more than willing to pay it because this kind of stuff has to stop or things put in place to greatly reduce it.

Chris.

Advertisement
ng357
3NE 2NR for life
Posts: 232
Joined: August 15th, 2010, 5:32 pm

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby ng357 » September 22nd, 2014, 12:30 pm

The only problem with that is that boosted cars can turn down their boost for the dyno runs and turn it up for the event. This is unfair and I'm sure it is something some may think of doing.

User avatar
pete
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 9374
Joined: April 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm
Location: Cruisin around in da GTi
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby pete » September 22nd, 2014, 2:12 pm

Boost controllers attract points. Not saying it was done here but a wastegate actuator or even the spring in it can be replaced after to turn up the boost. Car can be tuned to run very rich AFRs on the dyno and lose power then go back after and clean it up to make the correct amount.

Honesty really should be the most important thing. If your car goes on the dyno and is borderline in a class and then you go do work on it, you should step up and say what you've done and either go up in class or go back on the dyno to see if you're still ok.

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby chris1388 » September 22nd, 2014, 2:20 pm

what you are saying is true Pete and Neil, this really cannot be stopped BUT my point is this was not even needed in both instances that I pointed out cars should be in higher classes than they were. The scrutineerer could have picked up on them and tallied the points and advanced the cars in class.

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby chris1388 » September 23rd, 2014, 11:48 am

Lots of things attract points and the rules are not being properly enforced. Take a vtec controller for instance.....all it takes is for those hondas to have something that is capable of altering their vtec engagement point and that warrants a penalty......I am sure if you tally the points for most of the "suped" up hondas that was left out and hence the car's again incorrectly classed.

The back of the sign up forms should be used when scrutineering all the cars on the day and the person doing the job should quickly run through the list and visually checking the car for any of these things, when in doubt ask the driver face to face right there and then......its much more difficult for these people to watch you and lie rather than just not say anything and cheat because no one asks the question.

User avatar
Aaron 2NR
2NR phototakerouter
Posts: 6455
Joined: February 22nd, 2004, 9:28 am
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby Aaron 2NR » September 23rd, 2014, 12:02 pm

i believe this is something that is faced in almost all form of motorsports but i have seen rules being twisted the most at solodex events....it remind me a lot of animal farm....

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby chris1388 » September 23rd, 2014, 12:05 pm

It does happen a lot, but look how easily I spotted cars that are not correctly classed and I neither an official that should be actively involved with competitors nor someone who scrutineers the cars......the rules just need to be enforced properly......if men find ways the cheat despite this then well I guess they will keep fooling themselves, but as it is now it is too easy.

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby chris1388 » September 23rd, 2014, 2:08 pm

When this subaru is fould guilty of breaching the rules and running in the incorrect class I also hope the committee abides to the following rules from the rulle book:

"If a car is found to be outside of its class at any time during the competition year
because of a modification change or classification error (as opposed to false
declarations), that car would be retroactively re-classed"

"Championship points earned will be recalculated based on the bump, and any
trophies won by the competitor(s) during the year must be surrendered for
redistribution to the competitor(s) who would have held the finishing position of
the incorrectly classed car at the various events."

And pete that car has a boost controller on it which is penalized as 3 points, this together with coil overs which is 3 points has already thrown this car out of SS group without even having to re-dyno.

Another rule that is not being enforced.....many people at dex running LSD's and not being penalized. The rules are both an OEM and aftermarket LSD is to be penalized.

"LSD - OEM / Aftermarket(Eg: 4WD –2 LSD’s – 4 points) - 2 points if only one."

So what about all the civics that come with LSD??? Are points awarded to these cars?

What about the "stock evos and subaurs?" Are points being awarded to these cars?

If I look to call names everybody will vex with me, but I know many men not abiding by these rules and declaring them but instead just staying quiet because nobody asking.

ng357
3NE 2NR for life
Posts: 232
Joined: August 15th, 2010, 5:32 pm

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby ng357 » September 23rd, 2014, 3:19 pm

..... awaits some words from administration on this topic

User avatar
Aaron 2NR
2NR phototakerouter
Posts: 6455
Joined: February 22nd, 2004, 9:28 am
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby Aaron 2NR » September 23rd, 2014, 7:14 pm

I'm sure we will not hear anything from the exec....

kamakazi
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1813
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:32 am

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby kamakazi » September 23rd, 2014, 8:48 pm

That is sad....people can't be straight up in a simple competition.

Well if you can't beat them. ..Push the rules until it hurts
Do like what formula 1 engineers do.
I'm sure there are grey areas within the rules :smile:

User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 21168
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby MG Man » September 24th, 2014, 11:13 am

Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

User avatar
pete
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 9374
Joined: April 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm
Location: Cruisin around in da GTi
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby pete » September 24th, 2014, 12:17 pm

The reason that Moses is in ss is because of the LSD so I do think that penalty is being applied. How do you tell if a car has one installed?

kamakazi
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1813
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:32 am

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby kamakazi » September 24th, 2014, 12:41 pm

Not sure. .. Jack up the axle and put it in drive.... Might identify clutch type ... not sure about the others. ...

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby chris1388 » September 24th, 2014, 1:31 pm

Well pete that LSD is the reason the other car I flagged to the officials was running a class lower than it should have been. Whether or not it is tallied for Moses I do not know.

What I am certain of is that most of those hondas have hondatas that are capable of altering their vtec and as such should be penalized because whether the owners admit it or not I can guess with almost 100% accuracy that none of them have the vtec set to come in where it was at the factory.

If you read the rules carefully, it outlines vtec/vvti etc controllers and boost controllers as penalties even if the person may not have altered the set points you get penalized for it because the possibility exists for the owner to be dishonest and turn the boost up or alter the vtec and nobody will ever know. I know for a fact THIS rule is not being implemented across the board.

kamakazi
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1813
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:32 am

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby kamakazi » September 24th, 2014, 2:26 pm

Altering the vtec engagement point doesn't do much to improve performance... In fact it might have the opposite effect and cost you power. .. but that is another story
But a boost controller. .... That can affect power levels some

User avatar
Aaron 2NR
2NR phototakerouter
Posts: 6455
Joined: February 22nd, 2004, 9:28 am
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby Aaron 2NR » September 24th, 2014, 4:32 pm

there are ways to increase boost without using a controller eh...how is this trapped with regards to classing?? evo 7 and up as well as 2001 subarus up can be open sourced tuned...you can also run dual maps off the factory ecu, launch control etc....

User avatar
moti
punchin NOS
Posts: 4799
Joined: October 23rd, 2006, 11:51 am
Location: looking for Perry!
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby moti » September 24th, 2014, 6:46 pm

Well, I clearly have none of those gadgets in my car.

And I was placed in ESP due to my coilovers and LSD.

When is the next event though?

User avatar
pete
3NE 2NR Moderator
Posts: 9374
Joined: April 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm
Location: Cruisin around in da GTi
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby pete » September 24th, 2014, 8:12 pm

Only way a vtec controller would affect the power is if it is off and never comes in. Did not know all the subarus could be flashed. So should all get points for that? What if someone comes to the dyno with the same tune they race with? Should they then de-tune for the dyno?

IMHO if someone really needs to cheat that badly to win, a better driver in a properly classed car would probably still beat them.

The classification system is not perfect but to me it's better than a purely cc rating system where you have 100hp cars racing against 185hp cars in 1600cc or 500hp awd cars racing against 250hp rwd cars.

User avatar
Aaron 2NR
2NR phototakerouter
Posts: 6455
Joined: February 22nd, 2004, 9:28 am
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby Aaron 2NR » September 24th, 2014, 9:26 pm

^ it easy to detune actually...run waste gate boost or change the spring in the actuator...lots of ways to just lower boost

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby chris1388 » September 25th, 2014, 12:37 am

Lol well nobody taking on this post from committee and Pete seem to think nothing wrong so as we were I guess, get a mod to delete the post and let's get back to how things were.

User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 21168
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby MG Man » September 25th, 2014, 7:50 am

You seem surprised. Go to the religion ched and say Jesus was a gay hippie and I guarantee you someone from CARS will find time to reply

User avatar
SR
Chief Cook & Instigator
Posts: 13306
Joined: April 7th, 2003, 8:11 pm

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby SR » September 25th, 2014, 8:48 am


User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 21168
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby MG Man » September 25th, 2014, 10:05 am

I think the issue Chris has raised is about enforcement, rather than the rules themselves...even if CARS adopts the SCCA rules wholesale, it's still pointless if nobody's checking cars for legality

User avatar
JDM_GUY
Riding on 17's
Posts: 1557
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 7:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby JDM_GUY » September 25th, 2014, 11:07 am

Hey I do have a hondata, it is the s100. I declared that at the dyno day this year and the car was dynoed:

I made 147hp

I have:
front and rear sway bar
tokico shocks and rsr lowering springs
OEM LSD
Strut bars
the car is 2400 without me in it.

When we did the point system I just fall 1 point away from the class bump.

User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 21168
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby MG Man » September 25th, 2014, 11:10 am

this is why I like being in a slow class :p
Everybody slow and nobody does fret. I think ES has had a different winner for every event thus far
\ o/

JJustCool
Street 2NR
Posts: 40
Joined: November 26th, 2007, 1:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby JJustCool » September 25th, 2014, 1:15 pm

Hey when my car was dynoed:

It made 174whp

I have:
front and rear sway bar
BC Coilovers
Strut bars
the car is 3300 without me in it.

When we did the point system my base class was ESP and I was bumped up to SS after all penalty points was added.

User avatar
cinco
TriniTuner 24-7
Posts: 18227
Joined: January 6th, 2006, 3:21 pm
Location: Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby cinco » September 25th, 2014, 1:29 pm

while we at it
points for sway bars is retarded

User avatar
MG Man
2NRholic
Posts: 21168
Joined: May 1st, 2003, 1:31 pm
Location: trying to make a cinco-moti sandwich

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby MG Man » September 25th, 2014, 3:39 pm

cinco wrote:while we at it
points for sway bars is retarded


if sway bars attract points, then so should coil suspension. <y car has leaf springs, so every other car with coil springs is at an unfair advantage

User avatar
chris1388
Riding on 18's
Posts: 1608
Joined: January 24th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Location: Arima
Contact:

Re: Incorrect classing of cars at Solodex

Postby chris1388 » September 25th, 2014, 6:26 pm

One thing I always wanted to know, do points carry over from one class to the next? Or once you bump class is the slate wiped?

Because for instance the first class bump is 4 points, say someone has coilovers that is 3 points already, then say they have another mod which is worth 2 points.......do they get bumped to the next class and carry the 1 point?

I think the rule should be that you carry the point because wiping the slate clean every class bump doesn't make sense IMO.

Advertisement

Return to “CARS - Autocross (Solodex)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests