Car classifications -> How to test for 2007

[pete]

With the uncertainty of Wallerfield being available in 2007 a 1/4 mile test is not really possible (and wasn't done for the year). To all solodexers and possible future solodexers, how do you think the cars should be tested and classified?

e.g. Should there be a dyno day before competition begins for the year?

[MadCrix]

so how ar eyou caterign for ppl who for instance back off timing and dyno dere car and den turn it back up
or ppl with vtec controller sadn fuel manaegment sytsems who de tune their car and jack it back up to race>?

[pete]

That scenario is purely cheating and I'd just suggest more serious penalties for people found to be cheating.

This thread isn't about how to deal with cheating tho. More a question of how the cars should be classified and if there would be a way to check all the cars before the competition year starts to make sure the cars are in the correct class.

[MadCrix]

ok ok mr moderator

buh nah i agree with pete.. we need to seriosuly reconsider how we class cars.

and as pete suggested to me, we can look at the gteh pro RR to test our cars as it offers lateral g force testign as well

http://www.gtechpro.com/

[Sanctifier]

...how do you think the cars should be tested and classified?
e.g. Should there be a dyno day before competition begins for the year?

Not much good for 4wd cars in lower classes like the 4wd Lancer 1800 GSR.

Current method of classification is curious as well...
http://www.carstt.com/solodex-carslist.html
Right now according to the current classification there are two classes for similar models...
1997 Lancer GSR 1.8L Turbo............................. 202 bhp(US)... 2928 lb... 14.5 lb/bhp... SS
199x Lancer GSR 1.8L Turbo Stock Boost (Devi) 124 bhp(US)... 2450 lb... 19.8 lb/bhp... ESP

I'm a bit of a GSR fan... but I have never read about any 1800 GSR with only 124 bhp...???
I own a 1996/7 4wd GSR and it develops 205 ps (about 202 bhp)... and at "stock boost" of 10 psi too. The older model was 195 ps. Even the 1984/5 rwd 1800 GSR produced 165 ps (> 159 bhp)

Also these are curious as well... Same power + Similar weight = Different classes???
1997 Lancer 1.6L Coupe Mivec......................... 173 bhp(US)... 2531 lb... 14.7 lb/bhp... SS
1997 Lancer 1.6L Sedan Mivec......................... 173 bhp(US)... 2597 lb... 15.0 lb/bhp... ESP
BTW didn't anyone question how an 1800 Turbo develops 50 bhp less than a 1600 Mivec?
Can you clarify please pete?

Why not adopt an international grouping/classification now? (SCCA perhaps?)
No domestic manipulation... "cleaner" racing... and all testing already done for you! That way scrutineers will only have to check for "safety" and "cheating"... not classification issues.
That way if CARS ever needs to get foreign affiliation they wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel. Also that will stop all talk about favouritism, etc.

My $0.02¢

[zodiaque]

At least i know where I belong

[kes_vtec]

one forget the hp thing
if you really want HP before the event starts on the sameday gTec pro test the cars, that simple.

outside of that, this looks good
http://www.scca.org/_filelibrary/File/2 ... _rules.pdf

now thats ah rule book....

[kes_vtec]

EG
Stock
As a rough guide, if your car has modifications beyond this list it is not eligible for Stock Category:

* Anything available on the exact model and year of your car as standard or optional equipment, as installed on the factory assembly line (nothing available only dealer-installed is allowed), plus
* Standard OEM identical replacement parts
* Accessories, gauges, appearance, comfort, and convenience items (not replacement driver's seat, though) that basically don't help
* Added roll bar or roll cage to spec (not required, though)
* Driver harness (no cutting seats to install, though)
* Trailer hitch and/or tow bar mountings
* Any wheel of diameter and width identical to a stock or factory optional wheel, offset within +- 0.25 inch
* Most street legal tires that will fit the mounted wheels and stock bodywork
* Any shock absorber of the same type and mounting as original; no change to standard spring mountings is allowed; suspension geometry may not be altered; gas or hydraulic shocks are permitted
* Any brake linings; pre-1992 cars may use solid/braided metal brake lines.
* Any front anti-roll bar (no change to stock/optional rear anti-roll bar, if present)
* Manufacturer specified ignition settings only
* Any replacement air filter element (or removal of air filter element); no plumbing changes, however
* Engine bored no more than .020"; no balancing or porting/polishing of head
* Replacement of any part of the exhaust system past the catalytic converter (if quiet)
* Any oil filter
* Added clutch scattershield


sounds very fair

[Sanctifier]

Yup. Looks like they did most of the work already.
Is there a listing of specific models? If so it makes life easier for everyone... less cheating too.
If all our "local" cars are already classified into classes, then nobody can complain.

Just scrutineer for safety items and more obvious "tricks."
It's better than nothing IMHO.

[wagonrunner]

i like where this is going.
but kes_vtec what would chaning from auto to manual in my instance do to me?
judging from this

* Anything available on the exact model and year of your car as standard or optional equipment, as installed on the factory assembly line (nothing available only dealer-installed is allowed), plus
* Standard OEM identical replacement parts

identical gearbox, engine combo available on imported manual models.

[kes_vtec]

u will still be in the same class, the key here is "OEM" i are moving from a oem auto to a oem gear box, so you will stay in the same class, it will be like you got the car with a gearbox, so yes your car is still stock, and really at the end of the day it is stock...
"Anything available on the exact model and year of your car as standard or optional equipment, as installed on the factory assembly line (nothing available only dealer-installed is allowed)"
if there was the option to get a gearbox with your car from the factory, or in other word, if you could say" i duh wah a auto, i wah a gearbox" then you are stock...

[TREX]

Lets resurrect the SOLODEX 2000/01 Rules and review them.
These were based on the SCCA classifications and
They are much more specific that the ones currently in use today.

Over the years the rules have been watered down to suit ppls agendas and and to allow others an advantage in certain classes.

I would be happy to devote time to the exercise.

Barry

[Sanctifier]

^ ^ ^ Since you are one of the more informed, experienced 'dexers then that's a great idea.

As an observer "looking in" so far, it seems that it's just like circuit racing. Everyone cheats... some more... some less. Everyone tries to get an edge.

This way it will give the scrutineers more time to do a more thorough job when checking competitors' cars. It might even reduce the cheating a little.

[MadCrix]

interesting

i like where this is headed as well


Car classification has become an apparent problem this year. Although i see no problem with it as my car is within its calss, i can however see de need to implement a new classification system to ese the uneasy monds of fellow competitors

any other new ideas are very welcomed. When we have of meetign where new rules are suggested and voted on, u guys are the one to suggest it to the comittee and who will vote on it..

I really suggest you cars becoem members of CARS so you can vote on issues like this.. Membership is very cheap and u get benifits liek free entry to cars events durign th ecours eof the yr

[kes_vtec]

Crix i think you right, is time for me to really get into this, i what membership...

[MadCrix]

well memebership can be paid for at the next solodex meet... just tell karen u paying for 2007 membership


buh yea is time for everyone to join and become members even thou u may not race, u can still provide valuable input into teh running of the club

and in tunr make solodex an event that will be around for along time

[wagonrunner]

kes_vtec,
so, kes_vtec. considering the possibility that the g'b installation alone shaves 2.xx seconds off quarter mile time, should leave me in the same class as the OEM auto cars of same type?

[pete]

Going by those rules, changing the piping for your air filter will bump you up a class.

According to the car classification list based on HP my Swift GTi is right at the bottom of ESP and an SiR civic is right at the top. If I put in an air filter I will be bumped into a non-stock class that's supposedly higher but a bone stock SiR civic still has a MUCH better power to weight ratio.

WHat I had proposed to crix a while back is using a WHP:Weight ratio for classification and use that sheet of figures to get a basic average of the WHP of the vehicles by introducing drivetrain losses for Auto and Manual versions of each vehicle. (using 20% loss for auto and 15% loss for manual)

What you'd then have is a rough guide of what the weights of the vehicles are and what the usual WHP should be. If there was then a Dyno test(for non 4wd cars) and the actual WHP could be determined the cars should be able to be classed fairly easily.

[kes_vtec]

it is not about how fast a car is...
the same driver in the same car can do a faster time... 1/4 mile....
but this is no 1/4 mile... y auto and GB means little, for solodex u are shifting a 4 10 times, someppl will do better times in a auto car...
the point here is "OEM parts" and "OEM options"

[wagonrunner]

and my point is that leads to differences in performance in d same class. and since we trying to keep things fair, it's not.

[kes_vtec]

ok think about it this way.....

should a civic with a gearbox and one with a trany be in the same class

[pete]

I could tell you that right now they're not. A Manual SiR is put in a higher class (ESP) than an auto one (ES). And only once has the SiR in ES won over the D15B civics.

it is not about how fast a car is...
the same driver in the same car can do a faster time... 1/4 mile....
but this is no 1/4 mile... y auto and GB means little, for solodex u are shifting a 4 10 times, someppl will do better times in a auto car...
the point here is "OEM parts" and "OEM options"

sometimes it's not about how fast the car is. But having a faster car definitely can help. You cannot say that the same driver in a more powerful car can't put down a faster time.

I'm just sayin that if there's such a big gap in power:weight ratio from my car to an SiR, why shouldn't I be able to increase my power so that our power:weight ratios are the same and stay in the same class?

[venum]

At least i know where I belong

you and me both bro

except i am the odd one in my class

my car is the only 4 door in HS

[k.c.151]

^^^ dais bcuz hs is d undisputed stock wagon class...

[Blue]

My little 2 cents... people can cheat on the Dyno or quartermile... so there is always that chance. Can we not class using a standard course (as is done on BBC Topgear) - maybe we can use a wide figure 8 or something similar maybe with a slalom and a dead stop. This would accurately place cars in their bracket no matter what the setup - figure 8 would pull the ABS from the regular, slalom would pull the 4wd from the 2wd etc. This way we would get a more accurate showing of a cars power and capability (due to any suspension mods etc)
This course could then become the standard for classing - use it as the first for the year and make it a championship event so all will try their best (rather than anyone trying to cheat for class but loose championship points) as well the turnout will be higher.

This may also help guage the drivers - my car is ES but the driver is HS
Just my thoughts... may or maynot be a good idea.

Oh... just wanted to say... I don't think any of the hardcore solodexers would cheat in classification... I know I want to beat these guys and if I cheat to do so then I haven't really beaten them... my skill is still poor if I have to cheat to beat them - I think most other solodexers think the same way.

[wagonrunner]

blue,
yuh onto something there.
the hiccup however is what's really being tested there is car and driver. the remdedy would be have our own field of drivers then drive / test the cars. of course, this now brings the issue of "i eh want anyone driving my car". because it's feared that in pushing the cars, to the extreme, they may be pushed too hard.

the figure 8 is cool. i had thought about 5 laps around a circle. that way car control is pushed to limit there

[kes_vtec]

I could tell you that right now they're not. A Manual SiR is put in a higher class (ESP) than an auto one (ES). And only once has the SiR in ES won over the D15B civics.

and this is my point...
if the same car auto and manual with "stock" are not in the same class then something is off...
is the manual faster? yes, is it an advantage, no...

Why do i say that?

In drags, if you are running 14.7(auto) and the next man run 14.1(GB), the two of you are in the group, given that the motors are stock with no power adders. right...
so what is the slower car to do, cry, and say he can never beat the same car with a GB, and ask to change the rules of class? OR add NOS, and not tell anyone? OR go and look for all the ways to make HP while tryin' to stay stock???
you may want to fight and say, if the next guy do all the things i do, i still can't beat him, but you know that if he did he would be running 13s, he will now change classes, or stay in the same class and "hold" the car back...

i hope you guys see the big picture...

The drag rules as it is, allows for both car and driver to be assessed as if they were one...as in the case above, the car is given two classes, it is stock and given a time in which to run. The driver is also assessed in his ability to keep within the time so you have the car being physically assessed as a stock vehicle with no power add-ons and car and driver being assessed together set by the time the car runs. So even if your car is capable of running a faster time, driver skill is now tested in its ability to run a lower time. Both car and driver are given the ability to grow.

This is something I say should also be adopted in Solodex. Too much emphasis is placed on car specs and not enough on driver skill.

A good example would be Chris and the Ignis vs. me in a very well working B-18 C5. I'm pretty sure that Chris will do slightly better times than me or even in the case that I do a better time, it may be a second or two faster. The fact is Chris has better skill, even if the vehicles are unmatched, our times would be very close, therefore in a sport such as Solodex where we like to say it is 90% driver and 10% car, the rules should reflect that very same thing.

What YOU think?

[wagonrunner]

kes_vtec,
lemme start by stating my car ran 19.8 with a tranny, and then did 18.2 with a g/b in the wet. the only change done was the g/b.

so since i am stock. is it fair that that i run other cars who'se perforamce would be worse than mine? isn't that the reason for the classes?

or stay in the same class and "hold" the car back...

that's what is being noticed, and what were trying to correct. holding a car back, takes place only for classification, but not during races. it gives an unfair advantage. in drags, there is the term breakout, in dex. it's an unfair win.

am i wrong?

[k.c.151]

presently i don't have a major problem with the classification... bcuz generally speakin we shud have an idea of a vehicles capabilities... for example, even though wagonrunner and i are competing in the same class(hs), we judge our best times against the higher class(es), which consists of cars with more power(e.g. civics, ignis, peugeot) so in effect we try to improve our times based on skill and not power...

[cacasplat3]

well i wanted to get into dex, but the cefiro ah lil to heavy and big.
anyhow as was mentioned

90% driver and 10% car

i agree, but to keep things fair, dont u think the cars should all be around the same performance level, that way we see more of the driver, and not the cars.
power to weight ratio is a good approach, cuz it takes into account cars like mine, with medium power(160hp) and which are kind of large(1490kg)
this would put me in the same class as a car about 1200kg and about 130hp. making it fair IMO. just my $0.02