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Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

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SR
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Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby SR » August 21st, 2018, 8:17 am

Nice article

http://sound.whsites.net/tweeters.htm

So You Want Huge Power for SQ
This article was shared earlier today and I want to draw attention to the bit at the end. I copied and pasted it below.
http://sound.whsites.net/tweeters.htm

There is a comment about turning it up more, with a bigger amplifier in place(MORE POWER), and still being in the danger zone because with reduced distortion comes lower apparent loudness.

I believe if we can't turn it up loud and keep it there reliably then what is the point?

In this group we have members who have had several hundred watts of power available for single bass-limited drivers. I stopped experimenting with this extra headroom several years ago. It peaked with a maximum of 250W RMS per 6.5" midbass driver, which then was stepped up from 90W RMS.

Nothing melted down but this apparent loudness thing is real to me. I remember feeling like "That's it?". It was loud as sheit for sure but it was loud on less power as well.
=================================
Why Do Tweeters Blow When Amplifiers Distort?
Copyright 2001 - Rod Elliott (ESP)
Page Updated June 2015

6. Bigger Amplifiers
A persistent myth in the audio industry is that clipping damages tweeters, so you should use a bigger amp to ensure more headroom so the amp won't clip. This claim is simply bollocks! Take the 100W amp described above, and replace with an amp big enough to prevent clipping ... even with the additional 12dB input signal as shown in Figure 7. Since a 100W amp was just below clipping with an average output of 16W, if we add 12dB that takes the peak amp power to 1.6kW (near enough) and the average power will be 254W.

Do you imagine for an instant that this amp won't blow the tweeters (and everything else) if the input level is increased by 12dB (until it's just below clipping)? Everything will fail, and usually fairly quickly if the speaker was designed for a 'nominal' 100W input. It is simply nonsense to imagine that the loudspeaker drivers in a 100W speaker can survive an average power of over 250W and peak power of up to 1.6kW.

If a user often turns their amp up to beyond clipping levels, they will do the same with a bigger amp. They might even turn it up more, because it won't have the distortion component which increases apparent loudness until the average power is a great deal higher. Such users will never hear signs of speaker distress if they can't even hear gross clipping. Speaker failure is a certainty, even if their 1.6kW amp only ever clips a few transients. They can expect the tweeter to fail, and the woofer to catch on fire.

So, while it's perfectly alright to allow perhaps 3dB or so of headroom for the power amps, that relies on that fact that it is reserved as headroom! If you use the extra power then there's no headroom any more, and all the effects explained will still happen, but at even higher power levels than described above.

Headroom implies that there is extra power for the occasional transient. If you use the extra power, you no longer have any 'headroom' !

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VexXx Dogg
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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby VexXx Dogg » August 21st, 2018, 10:38 am

Is it right that all major components have clipping points and you should factor that in?
Head unit clipping point should be known and kept below
Amp clipping point should be known and kept below

If it's still not loud enough to your taste at these threshholds, more power is needed.

Am I right?

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby Rovin » August 21st, 2018, 11:50 am

like SR saying for d past 15yrs on tuner , hearing loss is why so many trinis like plenty mids\highs & its never enough & they keep going on to bigger & damaging what speakers they already have ...

lemme doh start b4 i write a essay ...... 0X

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby roger » August 21st, 2018, 2:48 pm

It's all about proper level matching at both the input and output stages of the signal chain....

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby roger » August 21st, 2018, 2:52 pm

You also have to match your transducers to your signal chain.. Don't expect a 20w tweeter to survive the heat generated by the output voltage of an amplifier that does 1000w, the vc will fry.

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby nick639v2 » August 21st, 2018, 5:30 pm

What about those Flare and drivers... Saw people using transducers and resistors on it..


Can it be done properly or is it just a half ass job being passed off these days?

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby Rovin » August 21st, 2018, 6:33 pm

besides ppl not setting proper crossover points & proper gain setting : trinis like to over-power tweeters & drivers as though its sub woofers

often as a store owner i heard ppl asking for 100s of watts even 1000s for 2 lil tweeters or drivers

like some ppl never looked at how very little coil windings a tweeter or driver actually has , it doesnt need as much power as some ppl feel ...

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby ruffneck_12 » August 26th, 2018, 10:58 am

Tweeters don't rely on cone movement for cooling like subwoofers
So any heat they can dump into diaphragm/airgap/magnet is how they deal with heat.

You have a lot of wiggle room with low freq subwoofers depending on how much air you're moving, but tweeters have a much narrower tolerance for power. If they say 100wrms, they mean 100wrms.

I'm thinking about running some tests with regular tweeters and ferro-fluid for cooling but that sheit more expensive than heroin

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby kavaninho » August 26th, 2018, 3:10 pm

I once did some reading somewhere and they indicated that alot of excess and unwanted heat is generated from signals above 20kHz. Lowpassing your tweet can mitigate against unwanted heat dissipating in the vc.
Great experiment to do if you have some test equipment and something to shoot the temperature!

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby ruffneck_12 » August 26th, 2018, 5:07 pm

you is correk sir



all the energy would go towards creating eddy currents in the metal yolk of the magnet structure and not into moving the diaphragm. At that point you just created an induction heater. The effects can start at lower frequencies too, but it's best to just cut at 20Khz as you said because you wont be missing out on anything anyway

That's assuming your music source material or DAC even goes beyond 22.5Khz

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby VexXx Dogg » August 26th, 2018, 7:10 pm

kinda similar to a subsonic filter on amps for subs?

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby kavaninho » August 27th, 2018, 12:01 pm

VexXx Dogg wrote:kinda similar to a subsonic filter on amps for subs?


Nope, although there is nothing to hear below 20Hz, humans can perceive vibration much lower that 20Hz which still add information to the music we listen to.

Subsonic filter=compensation for shitty ported boxes and golden knob for gallery men.

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SR
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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby SR » August 27th, 2018, 1:48 pm

But most source units bandwidth dont cross 20khz anyways

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby kavaninho » August 27th, 2018, 2:10 pm

However, amplifiers (class AB) can amplify freqs. way over 20kHz without reaching to point of high frequency instability.
I once did a amplifier for my school project and the bode plot was flat and extended over 100kHz.
Take home learning: lowpass your tweets if your processors allows.

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby SR » August 28th, 2018, 6:03 am

Agreed but an amplifier can only amplify whats put into it

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby sMASH » August 28th, 2018, 6:55 am

Under power ur tweets and over power ur subs.

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Re: Why tweeters blow when amp distorts

Postby adnj » August 28th, 2018, 6:58 am

Much of the unwanted high frequency signal that gets picked up in car audio is due to drive by noise from high tension wires and welding transformers. It's not always easy to shield a vehicle system against them.

In audio it is just an annoyance. In vehicle control systems it's a recall. That's why many signals are filtered and grounded in automotive.

I once reviewed an 18 wheeler that accelerated by itself and ran a red light while driving down the Strip in Las Vegas.

If you're not sure, you could just add a 20/20k bandpass filter to your inputs.

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