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ADVICE NEEDED ON SUBARU'S AND BOOST CONTROLLERS

Fuji Heavy Industry tech talk - STi, WRX, Forester etc.

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riderz
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Postby riderz » October 11th, 2006, 10:09 am

riderz wrote:do some reading in there. And dont be offended. I dont know much about nissan or toyota and from what I heard you do. So all of us have limitations.


Paddna all I work on is Subaru. Nothing else. I wouldnt know a thing on another motor. But I though that this thread was about just that.

You can go ahead and try to descredit me and say that my experience might be limited. I would totally agree with you. Folks I know nothing about other vehicles. Just what I have read. I have not practised.

However, as you and Dry have so clearly stated, the principles are the same. However each manufacturer approched these same principles differently. Like for example, VTEC, VVL, AVCS all do the same but using different techniques.

So your point is....?????

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Postby riderz » October 11th, 2006, 10:13 am

RS200 wrote:
Hey BTW does anybody know of any STi doing low 12s running stock mods. I would like to know for reference. My next project is an 04 STi. Aiming for 11s on pump gas with little mods. Probably injectors and exhaust like what I have now.


Marcus Edghill (RIP buddy) used to have a blue WRX that he just upped the boost to like 22-24psi (with a EBC) - not certian it was the stock turbo - and ran water injection and a fuel controller, intake & exhasut, intercooler etc and broke into the 12's IIRC on the north track a couple times, but he drove that car like he stole it and it broke clutches and drive train parts freequently trying it again...


With a ROM tune the same can be achieved with the following items not required:
- EBC
- Water injection
- Fuel controller

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Postby riderz » October 11th, 2006, 10:21 am

From the ECU we can control,

Increase Boost
Increase Wastegate duty
Remove Boost Cuts
Remove Speed Cuts
Remove Ign adv to compensate for Low octane Fuel
Advance AVCS for power
Lean fuel maps for power (wideband required)
Alter coolent temp ign compensation so car pulls timing when extremely hot
Change injector flow scaling and latencies
and much much more.

Anthing you can do with a EBC (except for switching from high to low which I dont see as necessary as the car is running safe anyway) or some piggyback fuel management you can do by tuning the ROM.

What the EBC and FM doesnt afford you is the ability for the car to go limp if it detectes something wrong. The EBC would just continue to deliver the preset boost even when the ECU is trying to shut it down.

So as I was saying all the time, EBC and FM can do what they are supposed to do on the Subaru BUT they do not allow the ECU to do what IT is supposed to do.

Does anybody despute that????

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Postby InDeForest » October 11th, 2006, 10:43 am

RS200 wrote:
Hey BTW does anybody know of any STi doing low 12s running stock mods. I would like to know for reference. My next project is an 04 STi. Aiming for 11s on pump gas with little mods. Probably injectors and exhaust like what I have now.


Marcus Edghill (RIP buddy) used to have a blue WRX that he just upped the boost to like 22-24psi (with a EBC) - not certian it was the stock turbo - and ran water injection and a fuel controller, intake & exhasut, intercooler etc and broke into the 12's IIRC on the north track a couple times, but he drove that car like he stole it and it broke clutches and drive train parts freequently trying it again...


Actually, the way i've seen that car, is
stock intercooler with waterspray (no water injection)
BOV, stock turbo, TD04
Full intake and full 3" exhaust
EBC and some other electronics, but i cant say the extent of fuel mods.
I dont think he went any further than that at any time, the 1/4 times were the ridiculous launches im sure.

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Postby west_minist » October 11th, 2006, 6:55 pm

Once the car is in OL, the Piggy will work.

THe water injection will have. Would this be recommended for every day user?

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Postby JWT » October 11th, 2006, 9:55 pm

gearboxes brake cause subaru's do not react nicely to copper clutches it is recommended we stay stock as the clutch is designed to absorb most of the shock at launch.

I agree with riderz concerning the rom tuning and i am taking out my boost controller to see how my ecu actually performs without it.

i am alos allowing riderz soon when i get the chance to try his hand at my sti with rom tuning caus ei have an aftermarket ecu also.

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Postby west_minist » October 11th, 2006, 10:02 pm

What aftermarket ECU do you?

You will be surprised :)

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Postby riderz » October 11th, 2006, 10:30 pm

You would be really happy when you see how that car behaves without the BC. Just take it easy eh...lol. Anyway once you bring the car we would log it and see how it reacts to local fuel. From there the process begins.

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Postby Alpha_2nr » October 11th, 2006, 11:30 pm

I agree with riderz concerning the rom tuning and i am taking out my boost controller to see how my ecu actually performs without it.

i am alos allowing riderz soon when i get the chance to try his hand at my sti with rom tuning caus ei have an aftermarket ecu also.


Ah yes.....we have converted another!!!

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Postby riderz » October 13th, 2006, 7:17 am

W2J wrote:Riderz question have you timed your car ? if so what gains have you gotten by 40hp / tq more ?


http://www.scoobytnt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=364

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Postby Bezman » October 13th, 2006, 1:51 pm

hey riderz, no offense meant when i asked if you ever worked on any other cars eh buddy.... this is a really good thread, and allot has been covered in it..

in the end, one can only make their own decision, based on budget and plans for the car and mods etc..

we have established that:

1) Rom tunes are every capable of running all aspects of EM and BC as a single all in one solution..
2) Rom tunes with EBC's can also work, for on the fly boost adjustment and change in mods / set up
3) Stock ECU w/ the right piggy backs can also work with EBC's to controll boost and EM..
4) replacement ECU's like Apexi Power FC and Ecutek etc can be a viable solution also, and both can control boost by them selves or along with a EBC.


the only reason i was asking about if you had experience with other ECU's from other manufacturers is because ot would show you the similarities/comparissons between allot fo the modern ecu's and EMS etc,

we have all learned allot in this thread, and it shouldnt be dissregarded cause tuners have different point sof view to accomplish the same goal. this is the variety of life and will help other tuners think outside the box ;)

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Postby riderz » October 13th, 2006, 2:42 pm

I agree with you. I am more concerned with the consumer than tuners that might read the information on this thread. I was foolish enough to run both the Greddy Emanage Ultimate and the Greddy Profec E-01 in my car. When I started tuning and taking advice I was told to take those things out and sell it. Of course I though the person giving me the advice was mad but I did it anyway. My eyes opened when I saw the Rom image and realised I had more control from the ROM than any piggyback could offer.

Piggybacks and EBC or BC can work its just that it takes away failsafe functionality from the ECU. So its up to the owner really. I prefer to advertise safety so thats why I was against it so.

The best option I would say would be the aftermarket ecu. Would recommend the Hydra. Plan to install one soon. For those interested there is a group buy in progress on scoobytnt.com.

As you said it comes down to budjet but the cheapest and by far the most realiable is the ROM tune. I say most reliable because aftermarket stuff break before stock parts do. And your car would be much happier with full control from the ECU than partial.

Laters

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Postby Bezman » October 13th, 2006, 3:10 pm

well said :)

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Postby compressor » October 22nd, 2006, 9:17 am

Hi guys, I am a Trini living in the UK, I drive a bugeye impreza UK spec.
Stock bhp 220 !!! it is know been on the dyno at 240 whp at a place call Superchips which up the same piggyback board as the prodrive (ppp) package !!!! with a manual boost controller in series with the original elecronic one. The problem with this was that boost from the standard ecu is way too slow !!! It was like this when I got the car. I've since put on a Blitz SBC-ID and much better response and holds 17psi no spiking,we run on 99 ron out the pump!!! The ecu on these cars can be fully remapped to do anything that an after market one could do by ecutek but cost 600 pounds for the first map and licence.

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Postby riderz » October 23rd, 2006, 10:22 pm

That is correct. You can increase the WG setting to allow the car to spool as though you have a MBC but its not worth it. The car should spool at factory to allow for proper AFRs. Once you tune in your gas AFR then you can gain considerable power.

I have seen acceleration times drop from 40-60mph by up to a second.

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Postby Alpha_2nr » October 24th, 2006, 6:04 am

I have seen acceleration times drop from 40-60mph by up to a second.


Ditto. From my experience, the car can gain significant low-end torque, and acceleration times in the 30-90 mph range (on 3rd gear say, for a dyno) can drop by up to a second, or more....

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Postby Rx » October 25th, 2006, 7:53 pm

^ what this b15 owner knows about Scubies anyways? :twisted: :lol:

how about adjusting the wastegate ? :shock:

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Postby STi-N » October 25th, 2006, 8:56 pm

:lol: dese b15 owners feel dey hav scoobies or wa :lol:

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Postby Rx » October 26th, 2006, 7:17 pm

vin_ud wrote::lol: dese b15 owners feel dey hav scoobies or wa :lol:



he prolly want to buy a whiteGDA Impreza :lol: :lol: :lol:




... but serious , anyone ever did WG adjustment?

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Postby riderz » October 26th, 2006, 8:06 pm

Yeah I did. Come on man you know that. Not letting out to many secrets, my car spools to 21psi @3300rpm. Its not that hard but you must syncro the wg, boost, afr and ign in the same areas. If one of them is off then you stand the chance of exceeding EGT beyond what is tolerable.

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Postby Alpha_2nr » October 27th, 2006, 7:14 pm

dese b15 owners feel dey hav scoobies or wa


he prolly want to buy a whiteGDA Impreza


Allyuh is kicks yes :lol: Leff me and mih B15 alone nah :lol:

:lol:

If one of them is off then you stand the chance of exceeding EGT beyond what is tolerable.


Have you invested in a pyrometer to measure EGT's? Or do Scubies have an EGT sensor built in?

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Postby riderz » October 31st, 2006, 11:10 am

The WRX has it but not the STi

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Postby W2J » October 31st, 2006, 11:55 am

^ I find this hard to believe EGT built in. Maybe Foreign used the person who own the car before installed one.

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Postby riderz » October 31st, 2006, 12:10 pm

All WRX have them, I dont know why. The manual refers to it. The wiriing diagram has it. And when we log we can actually read it off the ECU via the OBDII system. Found on the JDM WRX.

The STis JDM doesnt, not sure why.

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Postby W2J » October 31st, 2006, 1:08 pm

^ if so thats great that would really help in correcting timming issues.

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Postby riderz » October 31st, 2006, 1:10 pm

But remember only in the WRX 01+

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Postby sr18 Primera » October 31st, 2006, 2:15 pm

The EGT sensor on the WRX is a thermistor and not a thermocouple that would be needed for proper EGT readings. It's only pupose is to check for the efficiency of the pre-cat in the up-pipe. That is why STi's don't have it because they have catless up-pipes stock.

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Postby riderz » October 31st, 2006, 6:23 pm

Hey cool thanks for that info.....but strangely it does measure the Temp though

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Postby InDeForest » October 31st, 2006, 11:46 pm

Well a thermistor varies its resistance according to its temperature, therefore a temp reading in the ECU could be calculated from its resistance, I would just guess here that the thermocoupler would provide a more accurate, wider ranging temp signals than a thermistor, which probably operates within a smaller range of expected variances of the factory setup. i.e is the cat working or not

It would be like how a coolant temp sensor does not provide an accurate temperature in the dash display, it just moves up or stays down when the temp is out of the 'normal' range. Another example is the difference in signal resolution between stock narrowband or wideband O2 sensors, one is basically a 'rich or lean' on/off switch, while one really does display the fuel ratio based on the oxygen level.

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