ADVICE NEEDED ON SUBARU'S AND BOOST CONTROLLERS

[DrunkenMaster16]

and you can install a boost controller (one like i reccomended or any kind) and then compensate for fuel / ignition / boost cuts etc with another device (S'AFC, ECUTEk or whatever scooby guys use), JUST LIKE MOST IF NOT ALL CARS when you rasie the boost...

And all this can be done in the ecu, far easier, and far cheaper than buying a aftermarket boost controller. Plus it will retard timing, use a less agressive map and what not when knock is detected thus not needing a boost controller And saving you an engine in the long run.

Not jumping on anyones back, just trying to save the guy some money and help a fellow subaru driver out cause I know a little bit about the cars and ecu's. I have also put him onto a forum where subaru owners are talking about similar issues and solutions to other problems. No chill pill needed, its just a open discussion with some argumentative comments that help spice sheit up around here cause thats what trinituner is.. a ole talk forum. Great for killing a 5 - 10 mins.

[X2]

what if some severe knock develops and the ecu detects less due to the new position of the knock sensor ?

The knock sensor is a frequency tuned microphone, so the distance from the source won't affect it's performance drastically.


RS200... DM's point about the subaru's reaction to items such as ecu modification and boost controllers is very significant since the boxer engine is a major departure from the conventional inline engines that most of us are familiar with.

[havokkk]

knowledge is horsepower!

guys… we’ve all of us to make key decisions at near every step of our projects…

‘bov or rcv? should i vent the surge valve’s exhaust to atm or to the compressor’s suction? chicks dig bov’s… but what are the tuning implications?’

‘ebc’s or mbc’s? should it matter if the ebc uses a stepper-motor or solenoid valves to manage boost level?’ etc., etc.

in our enthusiasm, we can sometimes simply be too hasty… too judgmental… too myopic, and can easily err as we use less than all the information and resources available to us. whether from shop manuals, magazine articles, experienced builders, or even online forums, the information abounds, and we’ve to now sift and sort through the lot if we’re to be responsible owners and builders ourselves.

that RS200’s response was not subaru-specific, but rather boost-controller specific, does not negate its value… IMPREZZING may still, after all, choose to install an ebc (avc-r, profec-b). he’s now simply more information (and one user’s first hand experience) at this juncture to decide on how he’ll invest his monies. it's all part of the process and we've all been there at some point

RS200's a long time member and his contribution here at this forum has always been first rate, i think. trinituner can either an environment for the exchange of know-how and info between car-heads, or it can one for ole-talk... we decide with each post

[havokkk]

back on-topic

your fuel comp alters wastegate duty cycle to hold boost-level at target... how better to move boost pressure and eck out more power than with rom tuning, where target boost level can be adjusted up? methinks this to be a far more complete solution than piggy-back hacks... because of it's simplicity, as there's no additional hardware installations, relatively low cost, and inherent reliability. simple and effective! no need for additional ignition boxes with timing retard, piggy-back fuel comps, etc., etc.

[Alpha_2nr]

your fuel comp alters wastegate duty cycle to hold boost-level at target... how better to move boost pressure and eck out more power than with rom tuning, where target boost level can be adjusted up? methinks this to be a far more complete solution than piggy-back hacks... because of it's simplicity, as there's no additional hardware installations, relatively low cost, and inherent reliability. simple and effective! no need for additional ignition boxes with timing retard, piggy-back fuel comps, etc., etc.

^^^very true havokkk......sense.

Both the "boost controller/piggy back" or the "ecu reflash" method work. You can do both, but the ECU reflashing would be a bit easier, and more prudent IMO. But again, it's up to personal preference, and of course, cost.

[InDeForest]

Ok to pull the bickering back into perspective.
Recent Subarus (bugeye onward) seem to respond less to aftermarket bolt on mods and all of the usual piggyback mods, because its ECU is monitoring everything and is able to correct modified parameters to bring the engine back to the stock level of tuning and output. This makes the best modification approach retuning of the stock ecu.

Earlier subarus certainly respond very well to the bolt ons, boost controllers, piggybacks, and straightforward air and fuel mods etc like every other turbo vehicle is expected to, some of these had ECUS that cannot be remapped at all.

So depending on the age of the vehicle, you may have the luxury of road/dyno tuning to get the maximum out of the ECU abilities and parts setup, or have to take the old approach and simply change parts, raise boost and fuel levels while staying out of detonation.

[riderz]

Exactly, the ECUs in the 00+ impreza and FOZ are very intelligent, they learn. Not like other ECUs. As a result bolt on aftermarket parts does not work well with them. In fact is better to tune the ECU and raise the boost targets and wastegate duty cycles there than install and aftermarket boost controller. You see the ECU monitors all the conditions of the engine. IF the engine is 'happy' it increases ign thru what we call the IAM, ign advance multiplier. Its a value stored in the ECU. Normally on reset its starts at 8 and goes up to 16 when the car is ok. If it isnt and the car is detecting knock it drops the IAM to remove ign to compensate. If however the IAM drops under 6 the boost is disabled. You would not get more than 7PSI

If however you replace the boost control with a EBC or MBC the ECU does not have the ability to do that.

Some may be concerned that you cannot raise the boost or get the turbo to spool as quick as a MBC OR EBC. You can. My 02 spools to 21psi at 3308 RPM. So to answer the main question of this thread, none, stay with the stock setup, keep your car safe and raise boost from the ECU.

[riderz]

Oh and another thing. The maps on the Subarus are not as simple as those found on other cars. You just cant simply turn up fuel pressure to run richer etc. So using a aftermarket device to turn up fuel for added boost is not necessary. In fact the more volume via the MAF the car detects the more fuel and less ign it would deliver. So everything is already thought of.

I know this concept may not be accepted by most but I ask you, if you own a Scooby please log your car and pull the stock maps. Look at the logs and the Maps. You would see that all the tuning concepts and principles are already in there. Many of us want to use aftermarket piggy backs and Fuel Managment, the Scooby ECUs are far more advanced. They are on par with the Hydra and Halteck but are not as easy to program, because you have to reflash.

Not wanting to stray again from the topic, Boost control, why would you want to replace such the Scooby ECU boost control funtion with a generic device. I mean its like going backward in time. I am sure if other cars were able to do what the ECU of a Scooby could do they would not replace it with some ancient.

Folks, your car is way better.

[riderz]

yawnnn


TRINIOUTLAW wrote:

...but I install the Profec B Spec II in the US Spec all the time without any problems.

and you can install a boost controller (one like i reccomended or any kind) and then compensate for fuel / ignition / boost cuts etc with another device (S'AFC, ECUTEk or whatever scooby guys use), JUST LIKE MOST IF NOT ALL CARS when you rasie the boost...

and any car will have detonation etc without the correct fuel / ignition adjsutments, thats why i clearly didnt get into that.. i sateed what are IMO good boost controllers and are easy to set up


again i did not mention anything about fuel / ignition / knock/ MAF etc because i know that these need ot be altered for best results and scooby owners will know what works with their cars ecu etc..

please take the chill pill, unless it is that you jsut want to find some sort of conflict in what i am saying..

I dont want to pick on you RS, but the Subaru is not as easy as you think. Yes you can install a MBC OR EBC, there is nothing to stop you. But its not the correct thing to do. Its like removing the fuel pressure regulator and installing a fish tank pump valve. Going back in time. Many people assume the Subaru engine and ECU follow the same concept of tuning as the nissans or toyotas (not knocking them). It doesnt. The fuel, ign, ign correction maps are all done differently. So by installing a BC you bypass the boost maps and as a result you potentially damage the car.

If there are those that dont trust me, or you need to see it to believe it, please send a PM, I could log your scooby for free and show you the settings in your respective maps. You decide from there who to believe, the masses or a fellow owner.

[riderz]

I met Jim the ECUTEK guy at the TSOC meeting on Sunday. Cool Chap. Price was kinda steep for a reflash though. Anyway the OPENECU guy is also coming in. Should be here tomorrow. Exclusively for Scoobys.

http://www.scoobytnt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=314

[IMPREZZING]

Just a little trick that has been shown to accelerate the factory ECU's ignition timing learning process.

Background: There is something called "Ignition Advance Multiplier". It represents, by some complicated algorithm, the average learned positive knock correction applied to the ignition maps. It's represented in 1/8th degrees increments. 1 being the lowest and 16 being the highest (1/8 to 2 degrees in absolute terms).

The "happier" (knock free) the car is, the higher the number will be. Conversely, the lower it is, the more knock prone it is. This number, after ECU reset ore ECU swap defaults to 8 and usually creeps up to 16 (if well mapped) through normal driving. Depending on driving characteristics, this can happen within a few hours or a few weeks. Well, here's a way to make it happen in about 5 seconds ....

First: With the car fully warmed up, reset the ECU. This can be done by killing power the ECU or by simply pulling off the neg. battery terminal and pressing the brake pedal for a couple of seconds.

Second: Drive to a nice open road without traffic. Don't go on boost until you get there. Put the car into gear (3rd gear works the best) bring the revs up to 2600rpm. Push the go pedal down slightly so boost stays right around 2-4psi. You will need to MAINTAIN 2500rpm and 2-5psi for approx 5 seconds. You can do this by left-foot braking gently as to prevent acceleration. During these few seconds, the advance multiplier (which you can't see so you'll have to trust me) will go from 8, to 12 and then to 16. Works like a charm. And on our reflashed ECU, is worth an immediate 10-20 horsepower

In an attempt to save a lot of dyno time between reflashes (when the advance multiplier resets itself), I do this little trick after every reflash. In a typical dyno session, it's not unusual to reflash the same car up to 5 times. On the dyno, all I need to do is tell the dyno to hold revs to 2600rpm. Then I just lay on the throttle until I see a few psi of boost... Bingo!

Warning: This little trick artificially speeds up the learning process. This is only a good thing if the re-mapped ECU is mapped properly. If there are trouble-spots where knock is present, this trick will make it even more present. So be careful!

FROM VISHNU TUNING

[riderz]

Yep this works. I have a carputer installed so I can see my IAM and log it.

[IMPREZZING]

I think that i will kill the ebc idea and just get the street tuner software for my accessport and take it from there.

[riderz]

Thats the best option. I wish we could do that here but the cobbap doesnt support JDM

[IMPREZZING]

Just got some info on ecutek that you guys may be interested in from NASIOC.

THIS APPLIES TO ALL ECUTEK REFLASHES, NOT JUST 06 CARS.

On the 2.5 forum, I hope I can catch all the 06 owners. (and others, but only from a informational aspect.)

In October, I had a new 06 STi. At the time, Cobb had not produced the AP for the 06s, and I was doing a stage 4 green setup. PDXTuning sold me an EcuTEK license and did a dynotune.

After much later installing a blowthrough, an EWG, WI, a header, and other items, PDXTuning felt that economics of the situation was such that with all the dyno tuning and the street tuning that I wanted, I could either buy a Cobb AP, Street Tuner, etc or pay them hourly to reflash EcuTEK. They made a good case for the Cobb, since I love to tune my car, know how, and would continue to make changes. PDXTuning would take my money, but Tim felt I'd have fun doing some of it myself.

So, two weeks ago, I bought a Cobb AP for my 06 STI and we proceeded to load the car up on the dyno. The Cobb AP would not marry to the PCM and we were afraid that the AP or the PCM was malfunctioning. We tried GreggPDX's AP (first we had to unmarry it from his 06, etc), and it would not communicate with the PCM either. Afraid that the PCM was broken, we plugged in EcuTEK and tried writing back to a stock program. Worked like a charm. With the stock program in place, the AP would still not recognize the PCM. We had to put my EcuTEK program back on the PCM and unload the car from the dyno. A call to Christian at Cobb didnt give any quick solutions. The next day I stopped by the local dealership and tried to have them re-flash the PCM. Their SPSC or whatever it was called wouldnt recognize my PCM either. I left before they started to ask further questions. I got home, and then sent the PCM off for analysis. Here is the final conclusion:

EcuTEK altered the handshaking such that no other program could enter the ECU. Not the Cobb AP, not Subaru, no-one except EcuTEK.
Apparently at least 06s (and possibly others) have some of the communication protocol instructions in a re-writable part of the ECU. Tuners currently DO NOT have the ability to put this back to stock.


Fortunately PDXTuning has refunded my $$$, and Cobb was able to get on the PCM (at their shop) and re-write it completely to stock.

I work at a company that sells shoes, apparel, and sports equipment. If we sold a shoe that you couldnt take off, you wouldnt buy it. If we sold you a shoe that you couldnt take off, and didnt tell you about it prior to you wearing it... well... everyone would sue us, wouldnt they? And they would have every right.

I'm disturbed by having a company do this to my car. Im angry that I couldnt reverse it and that I had to ask for a refund for something that I couldnt give back.

Rumor is that this was done to combat OpenECU. I dont care. Folks are going to copy you. You have to out-innovate them to stay in business, not take your customers hostage. Welcome to the 21st century.

Full Disclosure: Cobb determined what had been done, and reported it to me. I have no first hand knowledge of the changes made. Cobb competes with EcuTEK (somewhat). In this matter, based on my experiences with my PCM, they backup what was told to me, and I have no reason to distrust Cobb.

[TRINIOUTLAW]

Yeah....fellahs....stop the bickering please!...this has turned out to be a very informative Subaru thread. You guys posted up some really good info....All of You!

Outlaw!

[TRINIOUTLAW]

Here is the final conclusion:

EcuTEK altered the handshaking such that no other program could enter the ECU. Not the Cobb AP, not Subaru, no-one except EcuTEK.
Apparently at least 06s (and possibly others) have some of the communication protocol instructions in a re-writable part of the ECU. Tuners currently DO NOT have the ability to put this back to stock.

I'm disturbed by having a company do this to my car. Im angry that I couldnt reverse it and that I had to ask for a refund for something that I couldnt give back.

Rumor is that this was done to combat OpenECU. I dont care. Folks are going to copy you. You have to out-innovate them to stay in business, not take your customers hostage. Welcome to the 21st century.

Full Disclosure: Cobb determined what had been done, and reported it to me. I have no first hand knowledge of the changes made. Cobb competes with EcuTEK (somewhat). In this matter, based on my experiences with my PCM, they backup what was told to me, and I have no reason to distrust Cobb.

My brother welcome to the world of ECU Re-Flashing...as you might know by now we are encountering the same problems in the EVO world. Don't get me wrong ECUTEK and others have a legitimate (licences) argument...why should they make their proprietary data that they have spent hundreds of hours of R&D which equals time and money...available to anybody that has access to the ECU. I know how you feel thou....

[Bezman]

what if he wants to raise th boost on the fly?? can a ROM tune or remap do that?? unless he has a toggle switch to switch between boost level and boost maps etc..


BTW - i do understand that the Sti ECU (like most modern ECU's - my altezza ECU eg) dont take to piggy backs etc easily as they are self learning and eventually overide setting etc.. i am no dummy

my personal scene with rom tunes is that everytime you upgrade or make a change you need a re-flash.. and to me thats allot fo money to do each time..


i am not knocking what others are suggesting, i actually am learning too.. i jsut didnt like be told to ride out cause i dont own a subaru when all i did was say what controllers were easy to install and use IF he was going that route...

i'll stay out of the convo and just read this one out

[riderz]

Hey doe knock it. Why would you want to switch boost on the fly when you can run really high boost all the time safely. My car is tuned to 22psi all the time. No Knock putting out 350hp on stock setup. I had all the Greddy stuff before and sold it

As for reflashing I agree with you, some options are expensive, US850 and retune is 1000TT each time nah. Dats why at TSOC you can get it cheaper and its easily available.

[riderz]

And doe ride it out, if you have something to say say it.

[Bezman]

Why would you want to switch boost on the fly when you can run really high boost all the time safely

perfect example is when someone else is driving the car: gf, mechanic, brother etc..

you get bad gas caue of a premium shortage and want to lower boost..

you want to run more boost - if you get owned by some stupid car (not that i personally am into all that ish) and you wisht o rasie the boost a couple pounds to get the extra 20hp you need to whoop his arse.. then what??

these are all based on my personal experience with turbo cars..

i drove my last turbo cars for years off the wastegate (with no BC) for a long time and enjoyed it thoroughly (and i had a haltech installed so adjustablility wasnt the issue in one of them) - but i must say that the EBC (profec S) was the MOST enjoyable install i ever did... when i started rasing boost and adjsuting etc i started to get the most out fo the car..even a couple pounds made me re-discover the car -

[Alpha_2nr]

you want to run more boost - if you get owned by some stupid car (not that i personally am into all that ish) and you wisht o rasie the boost a couple pounds to get the extra 20hp you need to whoop his arse.. then what??

Well, just raising boost like that in an Evo, WRX, etc etc will definitely prove bad for the engine, especailly is you increase it alot, and your current ECU map can't handle it.

Now, you can switch maps if you want, using Ecu reflash progs like ECUTEK. But again, that involves a re-flash each time. Now, COBB tuning has found a way around that in their AccessPort system, whereby you can switch maps on the fly, without flashing (yes...w/o flashing - ask any COBB user in the U.S. about it). So the COBB system allows you to have multiple maps, and you can switch from one to the next....even while you're driving (although it's recommended that you come to a stop)

[DrunkenMaster16]

been reading that... makes me wish I could go cobb.

well then again i'll be happier with some minor tuning

[IMPREZZING]

yeah with the cobb accessport you can switch maps on the fly (never personally tried it yet)there is are two anti-theft modes,one the car starts but shuts of when revs cross 1000 rpm and the other the car just wont start.plus there is an fuel economy map,valet parking mode(cuts power drastically)and ability to tune for 91 octane but i use the 93 octane map.

[Alpha_2nr]

^^^That's why I would love to go COBB. But I need a USDM car.

Valet mode, Anti theft mode....plus you can get your ECU to run on 93 RON octane. With no knock. That would be perfect for our conditions.

[TRINIOUTLAW]

yeah with the cobb accessport you can switch maps on the fly (never personally tried it yet)there is are two anti-theft modes,one the car starts but shuts of when revs cross 1000 rpm and the other the car just wont start.plus there is an fuel economy map,valet parking mode(cuts power drastically)and ability to tune for 91 octane but i use the 93 octane map.

Cobb definately seems to be the route to go. I'll talk to some of my Subie customers and see if they would like to go with the Cobb system...definately looking forward to hitting the dyno with that!

[riderz]

AM the cobb doesnt work on JDM scoobys.

[DrunkenMaster16]

^^ Hydra anyone?

[Alpha_2nr]

AM the cobb doesnt work on JDM scoobys.

I think TRINIOUTLAW does his work in the US, Riderz. Hence COBB isn't a problem.

[TRINIOUTLAW]

AM the cobb doesnt work on JDM scoobys.

I think TRINIOUTLAW does his work in the US, Riderz. Hence COBB isn't a problem.

That's right!...I've done the Hydra EMS and UTEC on the US spec Subies with great success.