B16A vs ZL-VE

[FullStop]

both gearboxes, obviously the b16a would be in a civic , and the zlve in a 323,,,what would you all expect the outcome to be...opinions and arguments welcome, please cuss all you like

[MAZTUNE]

the B16A is a much faster engine. its VTEC not VVT, so it does not advance just timing, but the entire cam shifts to give you a performance cam. sorry to dissapoint the mazda fans. a ZL-VE is comparable to a Toyota VVT corolla eng though.

[FullStop]

isnt lift just another cam profile? a more high rpm profile right? which seems to me to mean that it has alot of power in that particular high rpm area or range. But since cams are generally rpm specific, i.e. will work at optimum at the specified rpm(designed for this partic ular rpm).many ppl say that mazdas make alot of their power at high rpms, obviously not as high as d b16, but all this means to me is that if the mazda low end is capable of taking out that first cam profile of the b16, and we make enough power in the mid-high end, it might be possible with less hp to take a b16 in a drag race, and well i dont have doubts about through a slalom...any opinions?

[mazdamig]

like a civic giving a man some problems

[red bwoy]

ah feel so put ah bp-t in an kill dat yes:mrgreen:

[FullStop]

allyuh forget, iz ah zm-de i workin on, na, no civic ever give me trouble, cus even if they faster than me, the lil boyz who driving dem cyah drive 4 sheit. it just seems that even though they have alot of hp, they make it very high up on top, but the zlve is more mid to top end power right?, i think it can be done, i really want to find a way to build a 200hp NA 1.6, it either goin to be on the zm-de or the z6-ve.

[acesinghit]

The B16A has more HP stock and the ZLVE has more Torque stock. In both Civic and Familia/323 application, I'll say its gonna be a tight STOCK race. The ZLVE has SV-T on the intake only.....whereas the B16A IFAIK, adjusts cam timing on both intake and exhaust with variable lift and duration. Another competitor we can throw in this mix is Nissan's SR20VE and SR16VE as well as Mitsubishi's 4G92 DOHC MIVEC which rips with a B16A easily

[ek4ever]

The Zl-VE will not match a B16A.....the torque advantage you speak of low down is not much of an advantage cause B series engines spin up to their power band very quickly and continue to make power straight up to the fuel cut off.....there is very little power drop off after 5500rpm.

You'd be better matched to a D16Y8.

Like x2floor states the SR16VE and 4G92 are the B16As competitors.

[villain]

they are not competitors... they will blow pass a b16a....
why you think some people when talking about civic calls it the "torque less wonder"
they only start to perform when vtec kick in and they are high revers so they making power all the way up to 8000 rpm...i dont think the zlve could match up with it....even worse if they install some timing control and let their vtec engage even sooner...what then....
sr20ve and sr16ve kicks a$$...swap the gearbox from the 16 into the 20 and wow....
the ve is a totally different story from the de.... i enjoyed my ve to the end...
but sr16ve will eat a b16a..which would eat a zlve which would...eat...
sr20ve will eat most cars turbo and non turbo...but i dont know how it will stand up against a k20 or 4g63t or ej20, 3sgte... but it would disappoint ,i'll bet that

[ek4ever]

they are not competitors... they will blow pass a b16a....
why you think some people when talking about civic calls it the "torque less wonder"
they only start to perform when vtec kick in and they are high revers so they making power all the way up to 8000 rpm...i dont think the zlve could match up with it....even worse if they install some timing control and let their vtec engage even sooner...what then....
sr20ve and sr16ve kicks a$$...swap the gearbox from the 16 into the 20 and wow....
the ve is a totally different story from the de.... i enjoyed my ve to the end...
but sr16ve will eat a b16a..which would eat a zlve which would...eat...
sr20ve will eat most cars turbo and non turbo...but i dont know how it will stand up against a k20 or 4g63t or ej20, 3sgte... but it would disappoint ,i'll bet that

The rest of your rant indicates that further discussion is pointless.

[villain]

yes it is...good...because this is a topic over abused in the ole talk section and other section and now you bring it here...and the funny part is people who never even own any of these engines want to talk the most of this beating that and that cah beat this....i could only give MY own experiences with these engines... because i either own one and ran against other people with some of the other engines mentioned....

two regrets ...i never got to run a scubbie (im sure i'd get cut a$$ but i'll like to see by how much) and that i never got the chance to run an sr20 UK spec...heard these ones are much more powerful than the ve.....

[ek4ever]

yes it is...good...because this is a topic over abused in the ole talk section and other section and now you bring it here...and the funny part is people who never even own any of these engines want to talk the most of this beating that and that cah beat this....i could only give MY own experiences with these engines... because i either own one and ran against other people with some of the other engines mentioned....

two regrets ...i never got to run a scubbie (im sure i'd get cut a$$ but i'll like to see by how much) and that i never got the chance to run an sr20 UK spec...heard these ones are much more powerful than the ve.....

If you look at my other posts you'll see that i try to leave the emotion out of it and discuss topics with some level of thought.....i do not bash manufacturers....everyone does something good.

But it always comes down to ppl saying it could do so and so....it have this...that car goh get licks cuz....i beat this yesterday on the highway...adding nothing to the discussion.

I really have to wonder about the maturity of some of these ppl....but their posts aka rantings are often good indicators. I mean its 1 thing to be passionate about a manufacturer/model but some of these ppl act as if they getting paid to promote it.

[villain]

i hope you ent feel i was throwing that line for you buddy...if that is the case, is not so....
that line (the one you highlight) is just a comment i made with reference to this same discussion on the ole talk forum about this vs that etc...
but if you understand how the both systems work...you mightnt ask that question about which faster.
the two engine not even in the same class.... e.g zlve is a 1.5 which pushes an impressive 130 hp (for a 1.5) with the svt operating only on the intake.....with Mr. b16a is a 1.6 with both timing on the intake and exhaust, aggressive cams, and higher compression....come on...i dont know too much about hondas and im not a big fan , so correct any misinformation please if any

[acesinghit]

1996-2000 Honda Civic SiR with B16A2 engine

1.6L DOHC 16V VTEC 4-cylinder
160 HP @ 7600rpm
151 Nm / 111 ft-lbs of torque @ 7000rpm
1069 kg kerb weight (1.6 non vtec)

2001-2003 Mazda Familia Sport 20 with FS-ZE engine

2.0L DOHC 16V SV-T 4-cylinder
170 ps @ 6800rpm
180.44 Nm @ 5000rpm
1170 kg kerb weight

stock for stock the mazda is superior. wrt weight, the SiR is heavier than a standard 1.6 non vtec sedan.

The Mazda equipped with the ZL-VE engine is not superior however it'll be an interesting run seeing that in acceleration the Z6V watered down engine in the mazda 3 can run with the vic'. A 5-speed manual transmission coupled with a skilled driver makes a huge difference. I for one would like to see this race.

And please no 4G92 MIVEC's and SR16VE's allowed ok.....we not going so far.

b4 i go, doh get tie up with an Almera or B15 with a Nissan QR20DE / QG18DE mounted to a 5-speed manual eh. Them thing does pull hard as I saw the 18 blow the doors off a Hyper CVT M6 P11 Primera S/W and that is SR20VE NEO VVL.

[villain]

yeah a 1.8 vtc with gearbox will put it on an auto sr20... i dunno about the qr2o....
but the comparison between the sport20 and the sir is unfair because again they in a different class...displacement etc... even though the horses close, look at where the sport20 making that power and the torque....but again some mods to the civic and it will put the hurting on it...i will always love to see a 1.6 blow out a 2 liter...no matter the car

[acesinghit]

I used the comparison to illustrate that the FS-ZE engine is superior to a B16A2 but I wouldn't say that its unfair to compare both because once one understands exactly what VTEC is, SV-T is by no means comparable to it so its like comparing a 220HP ITR with a 200HP FTO and 200HP MX-6, the FTO and MX-6 has more displacement but the ITR will kill both and its a 2.0L engine. Having VTEC alone is an advantage not i-VTEC eh.

But I understand what you're saying. The ZL-VE engine can't match a B16A2 hands down so I had to throw in the bigger one to it. Similarly don't compare a K20 to the FS-ZE for the same reason mentioned in first paragraph.

[villain]

yeah a k20 will kill that...ok so if i understand what you saying...some engines even though they are rated at a higher hp than another it can still be beaten...probably because of where it would make that said power....

yeah i used to wonder about i-vtec...i thought that they would have been the better system but the new model ivtec accord(auto) put one 1 car length on me...while i know an sir would leave me in the dust...

[ek4ever]

x2floor.....just a note ...the B16A is rated at 170hp in the manual SiR.

[villain]

which is the rated hp of a sport 20

[speedymaz]

hmmm i wonder what my 2002 1.6 323 would make on the dyno?

[FullStop]

bout 89 at the wheels, lol

[red bwoy]

nah gih it ah lil more credit he go only loss about 11% in drivetrain losses an engine is rated at 105 stock so he supossed to make in de ninetys properly tuned if he like we boi villain

[villain]

nope....ghost is right...87 auto...it hard and expensive to make hp when you n/a...even though you spend a sheit load of money in upgrades....the gains are small....but the car does feel better...and i like to frighten sr men....they does cah ketch you for a little while until higher up in the dance..then you dead...haha...people does be surprised that a mazda could run so good....for what it is...an econo car...but with some torque..
but compared to other cars that start off with performance features mivec, vtec...(but not vvti....them does still get licks bad...in fourth gear)
mazda just weird....the 1.5svt (sport) has 130 hp...but smaller torque than the 1.6....the 1.6svt (mazda 3)at 110 and getting licks by the 1.5svt and ordinary 1.6...even thought its svt...the 1.8 bpze is still 130hp but has 130 ft of torque.....the sport 20 has 160 something but i can keep up with him for a while and i'll bet the 1.8 can take him....right now this new generation of mazda cars not cutting it.....the beasts are either the older engines or the very newer engines like the mazdaspeed line...we in between......i could have said a time back at least we not like mitsu cars ck whatever...but now i seeing everything coming mivec...
thanks goodness for rotory yes...otherwise...

[ek4ever]

which is the rated hp of a sport 20

yeah....but this is a 1.6L comparison. If I wanted to compare 2L mills I'd say use the K20A....right?

Just to end off....I see alot of discussions centering on numbers....hp, tq, curb weight, etc. and tons of speculation. There are so many other factors that no one consider when trying to 'prove' this car will be faster yet still they arrive at some conclusion. I've seen B16A's with basic I/H/E eat up EVO's and WRXs.

Also....saying you 'owned' this car or that car while driving somewhere is also inconclusive. I could say the same thing but then how do I know the next driver was really trying? If you want conclusive evidence go to a track otherwise the rest is just speculation.

Imagine you thinking you beat a man on the highway....it's just you in your car and yuh not even seeing the other 3 passengers in his.

Think about it.

[pimptacular]

in 1 of my cars..a bj familia with a a ZL de ..i raced a premiera with a sr20 n he couldnt beat meh..then again he couldnt drive as good as me..

and had a cefiero behind me n at the side of me at but not infront of me between 165-180ks

and after they was like hmpfff for a mazda

[villain]

sr20 auto will get owned in a heavy body like a primera from our mazdas....last night i almost "owned" a manual one in a sss bluebird...but he got the better of me on top end...not bottom...
and ek...that was with a full car...going over 180km...so we could conclude that "we" were racing....
had a primera sr20vvl...again full car and "owned" cars coming down the road...was a passenger in a 3sgte...with two 15 inch speakers in the trunk on 17 cromes...and evo, subero's and the two door bmw black...with the m7 barge(i believe) on the back...got owned...when it have engines that are that powerful weight and the number of people in the car doesnt play that big a factor(with these cars)...so me wit hmy 1.6 which may take on an sr20 with two or three passengers is still, or supposed to be advantage on me...because of the power difference....and if with a full car i beating him on the bottom until he picks up....i think i did well....just a lil upgrade and it's a no contest...underdogs ruling...
but then again...people never know whats the status or condition of the cars when running each other....some sr's does work better than others...or the man could have just had a bad night....
but my point is that some of these big bad boys are being embarressed by smaller economy engines.
look ent the exi and the si (i believe) has more hp than b14 and mazda...(check wiki) but it's a rear sight to see a stock exi beating a b14 or mazda...more than that it's embarassing....
so its not to focus on hp ratings...the only way is to run and see....for eg.
in drags...the tercel is a 1.3 turbo engine....it beat out a skyline and a 350z...who would have believed that....these big and bad monsters let an ant put it on them....
its all about where this power is being made....b16a 167 hp at where???????
8,000 rpm,7000? compared to 95 0r 100hp at 4,500-5,000.....i making sense?....

when mister ek say that he see a civic beat evo and scubbie....i was about to say he lie...but i remember from my own experience with the primera beating turbo cars....so it not impossible....i believe torque is the more important factor in this speed equation....
hence the nickname for honda cars...."torqueless wonders"..(except for an itr...them beyotches could take off)...and this is why...people using methods to engage vtech quicker...because that is when the car does start to make power....other than that...they are just glorified exi's

[FullStop]

thats why i was asking if a zl-ve could take on a b16, its about where you make the power, plus b16 or not, a 323 will kill a civic in the corners

[villain]

nah it wont...b16a are legenary minimonsters...if its auto yes i feel it could take him...if the sir manual...nope....it would keep up with the sir until vtec engage...svt is not as efficient as the vtech system so i cant even try to speculate that the svt would allow the mazda to hold on to him...the 1.5svt problem as i see it is the torque ratings...it low...needs more torque....and a sweet gearbox.... or just a sweet gearbox alone.....ive heard the the full manual setup is the realll deal....simarily the sport20 tiptronic...not so hot..but manual setup and it in the game...

[acesinghit]

we need to ignore posted HP/Torque numbers on these cars because there are several factors that determines a car's performance superiority over another. Wrt a local Mazda 3 1.6.....despite having a claimed smaller HP figure than a Familia RS ZL-VE motor, my money is still on the 3 since one really couldn't catch me in addition, the 3 has superior handling and braking performance. An SiR EK3 Civic equipped with a B16A motor would still decimate both on straight line performance but the braking and handling departments would give way to the Mazda hence, the Familia or the 3 would be a better on track car overall.

Please note that those Mazda motors including the bigger FS-ZE have variable cam/valve timing on the intake only (SV-T).....even having more HP/Torque than the B16A and more torque than a B18C, those two have cam phasing on intake and exhaust with variable lift and duration control.

The Familia Sport 20 is nice but its gonna get its doors blown off in a straight stretch and please don't even bring a K20A in this formula. A good match for the B16A is a Mitsubishi 4G92 DOHC MIVEC and a Toyota 4A-GE DOHC 20V VVT. A good competitor to the B18C is Toyota's 2ZZ-GE DOHC 16V VVTL-i. If you wanna start hitting those higher performance engines (N/A) you need the MazdaSpeed Protege which can be found in the North American market (LHD) and it has an intercooled single scroll 6.9psi turbocharger.

It is not unusual to see a roro Mazda 323 Protege GLX giving a P11 Nissan Primera SR20DE a run for the money but it'll be a disaster if the same Mazda tries a NEO VVL SR20VE equipped P11 or P12 Primera.....in fact, there are CK4 1.6 Lancers out there that actually embarassed SR20DE P11's.....now the same engine in a B12, B13 or B14 chassis and lets see what happens.

[villain]

true...power to weight......but on the mazda 3 out handling the rs zl-ve....it depends...if its the manual rs zl-ve...it would not...they come with 10.2 ' front disks...dont know the exact size of the rear...(i have those on mine) but they are the same setup for the sport20...because i had to get calipers from the 20 because mine were bad when i bought it... and the owner of a sport20 has a 3 also (the new ones) and it's no contest the sport20 has better braking etc...the auto rs comes with the smaller 9.2' brakes...
ck4 lancer is probably light to do that to a p11 outright...then again...we dont know whats under the hood for us to make a proper assessment...