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Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

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Allergic2BunnyEars
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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » February 19th, 2016, 8:12 pm

The dealer saw the fault codes and left the owner to drive it still? I got the p17bf error on mine and had the car towed to BA when I had my issues. Hydraulic pump was leaking in mine. Maybe the same for that A1.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby aaron17 » March 31st, 2016, 8:42 am

Guys , I would like to know how to use the dry clutch 7 spd dsg transmission to its fullest extent and correctly while in 'D' mode...to avoid delays from a stop, humps , using the throttle while changing gear up or down..etc..thanks

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby EcoTune Trinidad » March 31st, 2016, 8:49 am

When slowing down in drive for hump and you require fast pull off after crossing over it, pull down to sport while flooring the pedal; only depress throttle just before activating the kickdown switch

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » March 31st, 2016, 9:20 am

aaron17 wrote:Guys , I would like to know how to use the dry clutch 7 spd dsg transmission to its fullest extent and correctly while in 'D' mode...to avoid delays from a stop, humps , using the throttle while changing gear up or down..etc..thanks


Think of it like driving a manual vehicle and you will be fine in D mode. Clutch slips in second gear for smooth pull off.

What do you mean by using the throttle while changing gears up or down?

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby aaron17 » March 31st, 2016, 9:22 am

was reading an article ,which was quite confusing.. can someone sum it up?



http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5989734-How-to-Play-The-DSG-Game-and-Win-DSG-Driving-Tips-and-Tricks


Below is what I read...

The DSG is a Game - Play it - Really!
I have written a few other posts here and there, and I always refer to driving with a DSG as a game. Recently one of my friends asked me why I call it that, and I said "Because it literally takes strategy to do properly." This alone accounts for why I personally get more enjoyment out of driving my DSG than I did a manual. A manual let me do exactly what I wanted, when I wanted - But it was always the same motions - I could only improve if I got faster, and this was a physical limit. Driving a DSG on the other hand has serious shift speed potential, limited only by your mental strategy. And if you play the "game" right, you can get more out of it than you would a manual, with shifts a manual could never perform. Think of it like less of a tool, and more of a game. You have to constantly think ahead, to whats coming next - Plan ahead, direct the car to "know" what you will do next instead of reacting in the moment and confusing it. The two things that I isolated which allow you to get the most out of the DSG are :


Always do your best to make sure the gear you want to be in next is queued up in the other gearbox. After all, if that alternate gear is queued up correctly, you will get a 800ms (Sometimes a lot more), and possibly some unpleasant side effects.

Identify habits *you* have that give the DSG mixed signals and mess up your attempt to perfect your ability to set the alternate gear.



Disclaimer : These tips are just that - tips. There are MANY factors which influence the gear selection of the DSG, so far I haven't found just ONE thing that always works in every situation. Thats what makes it a game But the things I have listed below seem to be prerequisites to other inputs working. i.e. at certain times, speed and RPM might force a different gear selection even if you do your best with pedal position - So if you can find some methods, post them!


Tip - Always let your clutch packs warm up.
I used to not think this was such a big deal, but its probably the biggest deal. Not only for reliability and longevity of your DSG, but for predicting its operation. The brains of the DSG will completely ignore "Driver Input Parameters" if its worried about making sure the "Prime Directive" (Haha - Yeah I know) is met. Don't think for a second that the reason you had odd behavior between hitting the gas and the car starting to move wasn't because you just started the car 20 seconds ago, and no fluid is where its supposed to be yet. Relax. Give it a minute, especially before you ride it hard and put it away wet.


Tip - Avoiding the Dreaded DSG Startup Lag - Release the brake, and don't throttle up until you feel the car inch forward or until you give it a half second count.
This is seen when you go from a full stop *BRAKES ON* position directly to the throttle, and there is a half to one second delay before you start moving. It happens regardless of hill hold settings, launch control, or various other settings.

One thing that is evident is that it is caused by a purposeful delay in the clutch engagement by the DSG when the brakes were *just* released (Including the handbrake, tried that). I am pretty sure the DSG waits until the brakes have been released for a specific amount of time before engaging the clutch. If you release the brake and wait until you feel the car inch forward then hit the throttle - you will start right up with no delay. Hill hold may prevent this workaround if you are on an incline, so if its bothersome you may consider disabling it. Have experiences with this? Post them!

Incidentally, I believe (my opinion) this is actually a "Feature" - a designed behavior for a DSG, not a bug or unintended effect. Common sense would suggest that if you were stopped at a light, it would be ridiculous for the DSG to be applying partial clutch pressure in the event you might want instant GO - just imagine the excess wear on the expensive clutch packs that would cause. The DSG instead monitors the brakes, and while you are stopped and the brakes on, the clutches have no need to be engaged (No need to cause all that wear). The delay you witness when stomping on the gas from a stopped brake position is likely just the sum of the time it takes for your brakes to release and the clutch to engage, so my guess is there really isn't much you can do to get rid of this designed behavior, just anticipate and work around it using the above tip. My 2 cents!


Tip - Increase Throttle Position *Before* a Downshift, Not After.
Accelerator position is a major KEY in influencing the alternate gear selection. While there are many, many factors that go into telling the brains of the DSG what gear to switch the alternate gearbox into (And its impossible to get a handle on them all), "Intent" is a huge one. The DSG uses the throttle position to determine if you are thinking of accelerating (queues up a lower gear for performance) or not accelerating / decelerating (Queues up a higher gear for economy) -Seems pretty "Duh" right? If you are wanting to accelerate, you put the pedal down. If you don't want accelerate, you let off the throttle or hold it at minimal. Nobody would argue with that. But what you may not think about is that if you are used to driving a manual, and are now driving a DSG - your habits may *actually confuse* the DSG and make it think you want the opposite of what you are about to do. Here is what I mean. Lets look at a manual transmission driving scenario for downshifting from 3rd to 2nd to accelerate :

Let off Accelerator -> Clutch In -> Downshift -> Accelerate / Clutch Out

So now lets say you do the same thing in a DSG, so out of habit you do everything but the clutch :

Let off Accelerator -> Downshift -> Accelerate

If you do this (Which I found is exactly what I did) - This actually gives the DSG the wrong idea. If you are not on the accelerator, it assumes you don't want to accelerate. It assumes you want economy, not performance. So the alternate gearbox had a higher gear (4th) instead of a lower gear (2nd) chosen. Boom. You just caused an 800ms gear change instead of a 200ms one, and during that time you were off the accelerator during a time you could have been on it (You dont have a clutch now, you dont have to let off!) so you didnt even have propulsion the whole time you could have.

So what if you broke the habit to let off the accelerator before a shift, and instead pressed the accelerator down *then* changed gears? You're letting the DSG know you want to accelerate - It will have the lower gear ready for you because you are telling it from the pedal position you want performance - not economy. Breaking this single habit was personally a game changer for me - I realized it was simply something left over from 20+ years of pressing in a clutch. Now granted, you cant just expect to be at zero throttle position, hit the gas and downshift and expect a quick change. You have to think ahead, and already have been accelerating by the time you need the downshift. Its a habit change to not try to let off the accelerator before a downshift, or at all if you don't need to - and do the opposite. This takes some discipline, and feels odd at first, but once you get rewarded with a quick pick up - It gets easier.

If you can master this, I bet you will start noticing a substantial difference in gear availability. I noticed that I was able to start predicting when I would need the downshift a second ahead, hit the gas, pause, down shift and -Bam-. You end up not losing that second of "no power" driving during the shift due to your reaction time, momentum isn't broken, and you optimize the DSG's ability to help you out.


Tip - Avoid downshifting more than 2 gears at once - Manage the gears down one at a time individually.
This happens a lot to me, and is the source for most of my personal WTF moments. I am driving in 4th, and find I need to get on it - HARD - to pass someone. So I do what I did in my manual. Shift into 2nd with 2 quick clicks on the paddles and floor it. And what happens? You feel like you hit the engine brakes - the car actually slows down - You hit your head on your steering wheel, and 1.5 seconds later you go into light speed and your neck snaps back in the seat. Ever had that happen??? (Okay maybe I embellished that a little) This is because you told the DSG to do the one thing it cant, and set it up for the worst case scenario. Remember that if you go 2 gears any direction, the dual gearbox cant help you, because the gearbox you are in handles both your current gear and the one you want. So what does it do? I have found that timing has a lot to do with it, and if the transmission detects the gear request with any delay at all between - but Something like this :


The alternate gearbox had 5th gear queued up instead of 3rd because you didn't have the accelerator down (Doh! Tip on accelerator position above), so it cant take the handoff from the current gearbox.
The clutch on your current gearbox has to disengage to perform the switch to second gear, but cant because the second gearbox isn't ready yet.
At this point Mass chaos ensues. I have personally seen different behavior on what happens next depending on if you have stock software or a custom DSG tune, but both feel close to the same...
On one, it seemed to say screw it, disengaged both clutches, you lose all power, it changes both gearboxes (from 4th to 2nd, and 5th to 3rd) but since they both finish at the same time, it skips the handoff to the alternate gearbox and just re-applies the current gearbox which is now in 2nd (And during that entire time you have no power to the wheels - at all).
With other software I noticed that there was still an 800ms initial delay (with no power, seemingly limited from the ECU not the clutch) as the alternate gearbox changed into 3rd to receive the switch, then the clutch for the alternate gearbox (now in 3rd gear) engaged, then another delay while the first gearbox changed from 4th to 2nd then did a 200ms switch back. This is like a 2 second+ delay. One was smoother yes, but no matter how you slice it, its a WTF moment lasting much longer than it should.



Avoid this by always having the accelerator significantly down before the gear change, and then managing the down shifts one at a time. While this might technically be slower than allowing the DSG to change as fast as it could, I have found it almost always results in a faster transition with a smoother feel and less downtime - and avoids the DSG getting confused and throwing you around.


Tip - Be Consistent and Purposeful in Your Throttle Position.
The only thing worse than having the alternate gearbox being in the wrong gear is having the alternate gearbox "on its way" to the wrong gear when you need it. This doubles the time of your shift because its got to complete the cycle time to the wrong gear before it can start its journey back to the one you wanted.

What will cause this? Treating the accelerator like your first date, and being all over the place. Accelerating hard then backing off only to feather the throttle. This increases the chance you are gonna be sending the alternate gearbox somewhere you don't want it. I tended to do this sometimes, like when you're on a 2 lane road, backing a semi, and looking for an opportunity to pass. If you play with the throttle up and down, don't be surprised when you pull out into your gap and find that your power doesn't kick in for a good second. Try to be mindful of those situations, as it has an effect on the gear availability. Also, realize that pressing in the throttle 5% isn't likely to sway the DSG into thinking you want performance. You will have to commit to a large enough throttle position change to warrant attention.


Tip - When Slowing Down, Downshift Accordingly. Don't Wait Until You Need to Re-accelerate to Request a Downshift - from Pelican18TQA4
While some other methods described help alleviate any pauses in acceleration, if you're downshifting as you slow, you'll already have the appropriate gear for re-accelerating.

I love this observation. Maybe you already do this - Maybe it matched your previous manual driving style. If so, you probably had fewer issues with gear availability when driving the DSG. But if it wasn't, or if you used neutral and coasted on the clutch a lot, or even if you did a little of both for some passenger comfort - what mattered little in manual matters a lot in the DSG. It's just a matter of changing your mindset to stay in a gear, even if it wraps up the RPM's, adopting the engine brake mentality. If you want instant-on performance, ride the gears down, keep the RPM's in your sweet spot as you slow, and you'll not have to convince the DSG anything if you decide to hit it. (Not to mention your brakes will probably LOVE you for it)

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby aaron17 » March 31st, 2016, 9:32 am

say that ur in gear 5 and you want to slow down(smoothly),should I lay off the accelerator fully or lightly before apply brakes to let the car downshift?

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » March 31st, 2016, 9:35 am

aaron17 wrote:say that ur in gear 5 and you want to slow down(smoothly),should I lay off the accelerator fully or lightly before apply brakes to let the car downshift?


Simple. Just mash brakes. Car will downshift as you slow down.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby aaron17 » March 31st, 2016, 9:43 am

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
aaron17 wrote:say that ur in gear 5 and you want to slow down(smoothly),should I lay off the accelerator fully or lightly before apply brakes to let the car downshift?


Simple. Just mash brakes. Car will downshift as you slow down.


Article seems like I was driving the dsg wrong though..But what about the accelerator pedal?


What I came up from article:(may be I am wrong)

foot is not on accelerator>> car believes it is economy>> (car changes to higher gear)

when u lay off foot from acceleration before shift >> (car changes to lower gear?)

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby neexis » March 31st, 2016, 10:05 am

In D, it will always stay in the highest possible gear to improve fuel economy. Mine won't "settle" into D7 unless the car has crossed 80 km/h

If in D7, it will stay on D7 if you take your foot off of it.
In my experience it will start downshifting during braking when you reach 60km/h and lower.
Sport mode keeps the car in gears 1-6 and generally downshifts more aggressively to keep RPM higher (and I guess to keep boost high as well?)

I think where the article comes in more is when you're in manual mode. Eg, you want to accelerate, so mash the gas and then downshift for a more aggressive response. W.r.t downshifting during braking, the car usually handles it pretty well. The only time a user input will matter is if during the braking, you decide to accelerate again.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby aaron17 » March 31st, 2016, 10:12 am

neexis wrote:In D, it will always stay in the highest possible gear to improve fuel economy. Mine won't "settle" into D7 unless the car has crossed 80 km/h

If in D7, it will stay on D7 if you take your foot off of it.
In my experience it will start downshifting during braking when you reach 60km/h and lower.
Sport mode keeps the car in gears 1-6 and generally downshifts more aggressively to keep RPM higher (and I guess to keep boost high as well?)

I think where the article comes in more is when you're in manual mode. Eg, you want to accelerate, so mash the gas and then downshift for a more aggressive response. W.r.t downshifting during braking, the car usually handles it pretty well. The only time a user input will matter is if during the braking, you decide to accelerate again.


thanks for the clarification....
about the downshifting during braking part..would there be an extra delay if you try to accelerate from 'slowing /pressing of brakes)?

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby neexis » March 31st, 2016, 10:33 am

Sometimes there may be depending what gear you're in and what gear the car wants to down shift. Also depends on if you confuse the DSG, so it's preselected a gear to downshift and then you decide to accelerate

D5 to D4 won't have much delay, but D5 to D3 may take a fraction of a second lower, and that would depend on your input at the accelerator.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby aaron17 » March 31st, 2016, 10:51 am

ok cool

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » March 31st, 2016, 11:04 am

Manual mode is the best of both worlds mostly. I only use D mode when I need to text and drive.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby aaron17 » March 31st, 2016, 11:44 am

lol....

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby neexis » March 31st, 2016, 2:31 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:Manual mode is the best of both worlds mostly. I only use D mode when I need to text and drive.

Maybe if I had them paddle shifters I would use it more.

Most times I do it when I want to run the DSG hard, or if I want more aggressive shifting/wildness.

BTW..do you even use Sport now since that ECU tune?

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » March 31st, 2016, 2:55 pm

Nah I never use sport. Sport is too aggressive and you can get the same performance in manual mode when needed. All sport does is change the shift points. No different to if you let manual mode rev thru the rev range.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby EcoTune Trinidad » March 31st, 2016, 3:52 pm

Lol...you seeing that in sport mode eh ....right now I need stiffer engine mounts as oem cant cope with stage 2 aggression...having a hard time sourcing proper density mounts now smh

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » March 31st, 2016, 3:54 pm

Ebay? VW Vortex forums? What's the sign of bad engine mounts for our cars?

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby neexis » March 31st, 2016, 4:41 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:Nah I never use sport. Sport is too aggressive and you can get the same performance in manual mode when needed. All sport does is change the shift points. No different to if you let manual mode rev thru the rev range.

I'd say it's similar to letting manual run thru the range.

Not sure how it is in the Jetta, but I'm guessing it's the same or similar. Sport keeps the car in gears 1-6, and the rpm range is generally above 2500, so boost is readily available (not sure if this is relevant with the twincharger). For me, the accelerator becomes super responsive and the car isn't trying to downshift to the most economical gear- it will downshift to D2 in the 6000 rpm range, redline itself and keep going, and other such madness. Love that pedal response though.

I usually shift to Sport to keep the tiidamen at bay. But I usually get left behind.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby EcoTune Trinidad » March 31st, 2016, 8:04 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:Ebay? VW Vortex forums? What's the sign of bad engine mounts for our cars?

Banging between shifts in manual mode..slight split millisecond delay from standstill launch ,slight engine vibration on idle..visibly the engine rocks at idle eh....due to me running her hard...they also recommended reinforced mounts for stage 2 up on Revo's website..now I know why ;)

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby shottah_crew » April 1st, 2016, 8:37 am

Inside for the info

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby iggyman01 » April 8th, 2016, 11:06 am

those transmission problems were a factory defect because vw cars used a dry clutch for our region instead of a wet clutch. the mechatronic thus fails so if ur still within warranty carry it to have it fixed. bess motors knows this

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby drchaos » April 9th, 2016, 5:21 am

huh? All DSG jetta's for every region except for the GLI have dry clutches. Only the US gets a automatic transmission in their jetta.

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Re: RE: Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby aaron17 » April 9th, 2016, 11:55 am

neexis wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:Nah I never use sport. Sport is too aggressive and you can get the same performance in manual mode when needed. All sport does is change the shift points. No different to if you let manual mode rev thru the rev range.

I'd say it's similar to letting manual run thru the range.

Not sure how it is in the Jetta, but I'm guessing it's the same or similar. Sport keeps the car in gears 1-6, and the rpm range is generally above 2500, so boost is readily available (not sure if this is relevant with the twincharger). For me, the accelerator becomes super responsive and the car isn't trying to downshift to the most economical gear- it will downshift to D2 in the 6000 rpm range, redline itself and keep going, and other such madness. Love that pedal response though.

I usually shift to Sport to keep the tiidamen at bay. But I usually get left behind.

Wait nah how much power them tida have?

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » April 9th, 2016, 12:31 pm

aaron17 wrote:
neexis wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:Nah I never use sport. Sport is too aggressive and you can get the same performance in manual mode when needed. All sport does is change the shift points. No different to if you let manual mode rev thru the rev range.

I'd say it's similar to letting manual run thru the range.

Not sure how it is in the Jetta, but I'm guessing it's the same or similar. Sport keeps the car in gears 1-6, and the rpm range is generally above 2500, so boost is readily available (not sure if this is relevant with the twincharger). For me, the accelerator becomes super responsive and the car isn't trying to downshift to the most economical gear- it will downshift to D2 in the 6000 rpm range, redline itself and keep going, and other such madness. Love that pedal response though.

I usually shift to Sport to keep the tiidamen at bay. But I usually get left behind.

Wait nah how much power them tida have?


Some tiidas 1.6 supercharged.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby EcoTune Trinidad » April 11th, 2016, 8:19 pm

Yea dem is 150hp

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby shimon » June 14th, 2016, 6:22 am

Hello tuners anyone know where i can get the mineral oil for a mechatronics unit? Thanks.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby drchaos » June 14th, 2016, 7:37 am

https://deutscheautoparts.com

This is an american site, the only model they have that has a DSG DQ200 is the Jetta hybrid which had the same recall so they should be able to source it for you. The owners of the site are really helpful so just message/email them and ask.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby shimon » June 14th, 2016, 7:43 am

Okay thanks came across their video on youtube I will contact them.

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Re: Official VAG DSG/Dual Clutch Transmission Thread

Postby shimon » June 14th, 2016, 10:55 pm

Hello tuners can you guys tell me how long your mechatronics unit lasted since they changed the oil to the mineral type? Also has anyone ever had to changed their clutches? Thanks.

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