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eitech
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 7:37 am

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:Atheism, by definition, is a religious view.

Religion comes from the Latin word - religare - (re-back; ligare - to bind).

This means that one is bound to one's belief which guide one's actions.

Religion includes the belief that there is no supernatural realm.

Isaac Asimov - was an atheist "who believed that the universe is comprehensible within the bounds of natural law."

Does it not take belief to believe that the universe started with a big bang? Was anyone of us there to see it? If we were not, why do so many people believe what we never saw? Evidence and proof.

MGMan: Isn't that much like believing in God? Where is the non-circumstantial evidence and proof for God?


Quick question bluefete.... what word/s would you use to describe someone that lives independently of God?
Secular/ secularist?
Humanist?
Secular humanist?

I only ask because I find that a lot of the arguments about Atheism stem from semantics instead of the actual belief/ lack thereof.

So, let's say that God has as much of an impact on me as unicorns have on you. I don't believe that God exists and you (correct me if I am wrong) don't believe that unicorns exist. I don't attribute any importance to God and you (again correct me if I am wrong) don't attribute any importance to unicorns. I live my life completely independent of God and you (I hope) live your life completely independent of unicorns. My morality is not based off God and your morality is (sadly) not based of unicorns. I may think about God from time to time and you (really should) probably think about unicorns as well but God and the idea of God is ultimately of no consequence to me and unicorns (again correct me if I am wrong) are of no consequence to you.

Now how would you describe my lack of a belief in God in a way that is comparable to your lack of belief in unicorns? If unicorn is a bad example you can replace it with something else more misaligned to your beliefs.



Apologies for hijacking your question but i will loan you my 0.02c : Firstly i understand what ur tryin to mean by “independently” so i will answer in that regard. I prefer the term “unbelievers”. Simple as that.
Secondly, no one lives independently of God. It might seem so to you but he doesn’t wish for anyone to perish and tries to reach out to you in all sorts of ways. But the more you harden ur heart, the more distant you move. God doesn’t hide from man, it’s man who hides from God.
Thirdly, i am pretty sure you don’t believe in unicorns either but i see what you did there. Lol. Your lack of belief in God and unicorns comes from a lack of scientific proof. I”ll support you as far as unicorns go. What unbelievers fail to grasp is that once you exercise that faith FIRST, only then u realise what is the truth. I’ve come to realize it’s so simple yet so complex for the unbeliever.


Unbeliever is an ok word I guess, just really vague. According to your description though it appears that God cannot live indepedently of me (and by extention man). This goes against your intended meaning but ironically unintentionally makes sense to me.

Also, although the lack of belief is due to lack of scientific proof, there are also many personal and philosophical benefits that I have experienced since leaving the faith. I used to be deeply religious, even contemplated becoming a priest at one point. I have found life much more rewarding and fullfilling since I gave up that idea and decided to live a secular life. We can get into that if you are interested.

As far as faith goes, I believe that faith is nothing more than a willful self induced placebo. I used to be very anti-religious after leaving the church but I've found myself becomming more tolerant recently after rebuilding myself independent of the teachings of the church (again, I don't mind going more in depth if you are interested).

In short, I have zero faith and zero belief in religion and God. However, I am not anti religious as I once was as I have come to recognise that good and bad are perpetuated by people regardless of their belief or non-belief. There are atheists that I will cringe to be associated with and priest that to this day I still hold in the highest regard and trust 100%. There are also priests that pedophiles and atheists that I admire.

My main issue is with anyone that claims that they have a monopoly on truth and that their truth is non-falsifiable. That always leads to ignorance before long.


If you know john 3:16 you would know where the “believer” concept came from. ...”whosoever believeth...”. That’s the belief concept and of course if you dont believe...unbeliever. Simple

I said no one (man) can live independently from God. Man depends on God. God does not depend on Man.

Sure u can explain better. I will listen. I will tell you this, you say u were in the faith once. Which one? While the belief concept is quite simple, the scriptures does say the road is narrow and there be few that find it. Alot of ppl get deceived into the wrong doctrine and develop a poor foundation so they depart from the faith. Maybe or maybe-not that was ur case. But as far as i have seen in my few years is that most are deceived into a weak doctrine that doesn’t warrant a change of heart but sumtin unsubstantial for one’s conviction.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 7:49 am

FordeG wrote:Just throwing it out there, Christians believe (myself included) that Jesus is the only way to salvation. This is why, we often come across as hard-line. But, when you have our faith and you know it is the true path, we are forcing our beliefs to save you. Please understand we want you to go to heaven.

Also, I will get flack for this I'm sure, but I don't see this debate as a religion vs atheist debate.

Being a Hindu to me, is even worse than being a non believer because you're opposing God's wishes even more. Might as well pray to Satan.


While i may be adamant about my conviction and the consequences to the unbeliever, never forget, it is a choice for the individual and do not force ur belief upon anyone. That is not the way.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 8th, 2019, 8:21 am

FordeG wrote:Just throwing it out there, Christians believe (myself included) that Jesus is the only way to salvation. This is why, we often come across as hard-line. But, when you have our faith and you know it is the true path, we are forcing our beliefs to save you. Please understand we want you to go to heaven.

Also, I will get flack for this I'm sure, but I don't see this debate as a religion vs atheist debate.

Being a Hindu to me, is even worse than being a non believer because you're opposing God's wishes even more. Might as well pray to Satan.

So.... the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, man has been around for about 200,000 years and God only decided to send the means for salvation 2000 years ago and only give a minority of the world's population a chance at salvation? Why is God so hateful? Why did he create a world that results in the everlasting torment and punishment of the vast majority of human civilization. How am I supposed to respect or worship such a sadistic God?

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The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 8:47 am

Slartibartfast wrote:
FordeG wrote:Just throwing it out there, Christians believe (myself included) that Jesus is the only way to salvation. This is why, we often come across as hard-line. But, when you have our faith and you know it is the true path, we are forcing our beliefs to save you. Please understand we want you to go to heaven.

Also, I will get flack for this I'm sure, but I don't see this debate as a religion vs atheist debate.

Being a Hindu to me, is even worse than being a non believer because you're opposing God's wishes even more. Might as well pray to Satan.

So.... the Earth is 4.5 billion years old,
1.(lets assume this is true)

2.(let’s assume this is true as well)
man has been around for about 200,000 years

and God only decided to send the means for salvation 2000 years ago
and only give a minority of the world's population a chance at salvation?

3.( u will have to ask when and how did man fall out of favor with God). In which case i can shift the timeline to suit. Assuming man fell out of favor 2000 yrs ago.

Why is God so hateful? Why did he create a world that results in the everlasting torment and punishment of the vast majority of human civilization. How am I supposed to respect or worship such a sadistic God?


God is not hateful. U need to understand what happened when man fell out of favor with God

I am jus tryin to play out the reasoning eh

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 8th, 2019, 8:57 am

eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:Atheism, by definition, is a religious view.

Religion comes from the Latin word - religare - (re-back; ligare - to bind).

This means that one is bound to one's belief which guide one's actions.

Religion includes the belief that there is no supernatural realm.

Isaac Asimov - was an atheist "who believed that the universe is comprehensible within the bounds of natural law."

Does it not take belief to believe that the universe started with a big bang? Was anyone of us there to see it? If we were not, why do so many people believe what we never saw? Evidence and proof.

MGMan: Isn't that much like believing in God? Where is the non-circumstantial evidence and proof for God?


Quick question bluefete.... what word/s would you use to describe someone that lives independently of God?
Secular/ secularist?
Humanist?
Secular humanist?

I only ask because I find that a lot of the arguments about Atheism stem from semantics instead of the actual belief/ lack thereof.

So, let's say that God has as much of an impact on me as unicorns have on you. I don't believe that God exists and you (correct me if I am wrong) don't believe that unicorns exist. I don't attribute any importance to God and you (again correct me if I am wrong) don't attribute any importance to unicorns. I live my life completely independent of God and you (I hope) live your life completely independent of unicorns. My morality is not based off God and your morality is (sadly) not based of unicorns. I may think about God from time to time and you (really should) probably think about unicorns as well but God and the idea of God is ultimately of no consequence to me and unicorns (again correct me if I am wrong) are of no consequence to you.

Now how would you describe my lack of a belief in God in a way that is comparable to your lack of belief in unicorns? If unicorn is a bad example you can replace it with something else more misaligned to your beliefs.



Apologies for hijacking your question but i will loan you my 0.02c : Firstly i understand what ur tryin to mean by “independently” so i will answer in that regard. I prefer the term “unbelievers”. Simple as that.
Secondly, no one lives independently of God. It might seem so to you but he doesn’t wish for anyone to perish and tries to reach out to you in all sorts of ways. But the more you harden ur heart, the more distant you move. God doesn’t hide from man, it’s man who hides from God.
Thirdly, i am pretty sure you don’t believe in unicorns either but i see what you did there. Lol. Your lack of belief in God and unicorns comes from a lack of scientific proof. I”ll support you as far as unicorns go. What unbelievers fail to grasp is that once you exercise that faith FIRST, only then u realise what is the truth. I’ve come to realize it’s so simple yet so complex for the unbeliever.


Unbeliever is an ok word I guess, just really vague. According to your description though it appears that God cannot live indepedently of me (and by extention man). This goes against your intended meaning but ironically unintentionally makes sense to me.

Also, although the lack of belief is due to lack of scientific proof, there are also many personal and philosophical benefits that I have experienced since leaving the faith. I used to be deeply religious, even contemplated becoming a priest at one point. I have found life much more rewarding and fullfilling since I gave up that idea and decided to live a secular life. We can get into that if you are interested.

As far as faith goes, I believe that faith is nothing more than a willful self induced placebo. I used to be very anti-religious after leaving the church but I've found myself becomming more tolerant recently after rebuilding myself independent of the teachings of the church (again, I don't mind going more in depth if you are interested).

In short, I have zero faith and zero belief in religion and God. However, I am not anti religious as I once was as I have come to recognise that good and bad are perpetuated by people regardless of their belief or non-belief. There are atheists that I will cringe to be associated with and priest that to this day I still hold in the highest regard and trust 100%. There are also priests that pedophiles and atheists that I admire.

My main issue is with anyone that claims that they have a monopoly on truth and that their truth is non-falsifiable. That always leads to ignorance before long.


If you know john 3:16 you would know where the “believer” concept came from. ...”whosoever believeth...”. That’s the belief concept and of course if you dont believe...unbeliever. Simple

I said no one (man) can live independently from God. Man depends on God. God does not depend on Man.

Sure u can explain better. I will listen. I will tell you this, you say u were in the faith once. Which one? While the belief concept is quite simple, the scriptures does say the road is narrow and there be few that find it. Alot of ppl get deceived into the wrong doctrine and develop a poor foundation so they depart from the faith. Maybe or maybe-not that was ur case. But as far as i have seen in my few years is that most are deceived into a weak doctrine that doesn’t warrant a change of heart but sumtin unsubstantial for one’s conviction.


I have no issue with what word you use to describe it as long as the meaning of what I am trying to convey is carried across. Description of Atheism according to wikipedia included below for clarity for people that think Atheism is a belief system. It's like saying being straight is a type of being gay.

A lot of morality can be derived from the golden rule which existed in many forms long before Christianity
"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others." - Confucius ~500BC
Note that that rule makes no mention of God or to a higher power.

A lot of morality can similarly be derived using innate empathy, common sense and reasoning. All you need to do is see all beings in the world as an extension of yourself. The Earth is one planet on which we all need to survive. Our society is interconnected and our actions can therefore have resounding consequences (both good and bad). Think of us as cells in a body. There are vast differences between many of us, some of us are harmful and cancerous but in the end we all need to work together to make life on Earth work. If you give me an example I can show you how morality can be derived using mostly this logic, independent of any reference to or need for belief in a deity.

Even the agnostics should have nothing to fear when religious people try to scare them into believing by saying that they will suffer eternal torment for not doing so. The can consider what was said by Marcus Aurelius
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

BTW, I don't think Marcus Aurelius was an Atheist. His book "Meditations" makes several references to God and "the logos". If you haven't read that book at yet I highly recommend it. It's free to download online. Just skip the 90 page intro.

FYI, I was in the Roman Catholic faith. In my opinion there is not a significant enough difference between Christian faiths to make a difference to me (except those "for profit prosperity gospel" faiths. They could f*ck right off). You are willing to try to convince me if you like.

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby apole69 » May 8th, 2019, 9:12 am

FordeG wrote:Just throwing it out there, Christians believe (myself included) that Jesus is the only way to salvation. This is why, we often come across as hard-line. But, when you have our faith and you know it is the true path, we are forcing our beliefs to save you. Please understand we want you to go to heaven.

Also, I will get flack for this I'm sure, but I don't see this debate as a religion vs atheist debate.

Being a Hindu to me, is even worse than being a non believer because you're opposing God's wishes even more. Might as well pray to Satan.

Right here ! This is the best argument against religon. The Brain Washing and acute tunnel vision is at an advanced stage !
Definite symptoms of deep seated psychological issues.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 8th, 2019, 9:14 am

eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
FordeG wrote:Just throwing it out there, Christians believe (myself included) that Jesus is the only way to salvation. This is why, we often come across as hard-line. But, when you have our faith and you know it is the true path, we are forcing our beliefs to save you. Please understand we want you to go to heaven.

Also, I will get flack for this I'm sure, but I don't see this debate as a religion vs atheist debate.

Being a Hindu to me, is even worse than being a non believer because you're opposing God's wishes even more. Might as well pray to Satan.

So.... the Earth is 4.5 billion years old,
1.(lets assume this is true)

2.(let’s assume this is true as well)
man has been around for about 200,000 years

and God only decided to send the means for salvation 2000 years ago
and only give a minority of the world's population a chance at salvation?

3.( u will have to ask when and how did man fall out of favor with God). In which case i can shift the timeline to suit. Assuming man fell out of favor 2000 yrs ago.

Why is God so hateful? Why did he create a world that results in the everlasting torment and punishment of the vast majority of human civilization. How am I supposed to respect or worship such a sadistic God?


God is not hateful. U need to understand what happened when man fell out of favor with God

Maybe you can provide insight on that. What did man do that was so drastic 2000 years ago that God had to come down personally to save us. Why did he choose that particular location? Has nothing worse happened before or since? In the past century alone we have had more war, genocide and hedonism than ever before, why is he leaving us die. Surely one visit 2000 years ago and one book with zero updates is not sufficient enough. If God is perfect then he should be a perfect communicator as well, why isn't his message getting across? Is this also our fault? Isn't that like a teacher blaming a child for not learning? Sure it can be the child's fault but how are we to know that it isn't also the teacher's fault? Because the teacher/ God said so? Wouldn't that assessment be a tad bit biased?

I am jus tryin to play out the reasoning eh

Yeah that's cool. I understand where you are coming from. You don't have to believe every stance you take in a debate. Sometimes you need to go outside and around your beliefs to get back to the truth.

I have no issue with peacefully preaching the faith as all there are invaluable philosophical truths included in most religious texts. I believe that religion is a placebo that some people can use to overcome obstacles. I take issue with people that resort to fear mongering to get you into the faith the way FordeG does. It's dishonest and annoying.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 12:41 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:Atheism, by definition, is a religious view.

Religion comes from the Latin word - religare - (re-back; ligare - to bind).

This means that one is bound to one's belief which guide one's actions.

Religion includes the belief that there is no supernatural realm.

Isaac Asimov - was an atheist "who believed that the universe is comprehensible within the bounds of natural law."

Does it not take belief to believe that the universe started with a big bang? Was anyone of us there to see it? If we were not, why do so many people believe what we never saw? Evidence and proof.

MGMan: Isn't that much like believing in God? Where is the non-circumstantial evidence and proof for God?


Quick question bluefete.... what word/s would you use to describe someone that lives independently of God?
Secular/ secularist?
Humanist?
Secular humanist?

I only ask because I find that a lot of the arguments about Atheism stem from semantics instead of the actual belief/ lack thereof.

So, let's say that God has as much of an impact on me as unicorns have on you. I don't believe that God exists and you (correct me if I am wrong) don't believe that unicorns exist. I don't attribute any importance to God and you (again correct me if I am wrong) don't attribute any importance to unicorns. I live my life completely independent of God and you (I hope) live your life completely independent of unicorns. My morality is not based off God and your morality is (sadly) not based of unicorns. I may think about God from time to time and you (really should) probably think about unicorns as well but God and the idea of God is ultimately of no consequence to me and unicorns (again correct me if I am wrong) are of no consequence to you.

Now how would you describe my lack of a belief in God in a way that is comparable to your lack of belief in unicorns? If unicorn is a bad example you can replace it with something else more misaligned to your beliefs.



Apologies for hijacking your question but i will loan you my 0.02c : Firstly i understand what ur tryin to mean by “independently” so i will answer in that regard. I prefer the term “unbelievers”. Simple as that.
Secondly, no one lives independently of God. It might seem so to you but he doesn’t wish for anyone to perish and tries to reach out to you in all sorts of ways. But the more you harden ur heart, the more distant you move. God doesn’t hide from man, it’s man who hides from God.
Thirdly, i am pretty sure you don’t believe in unicorns either but i see what you did there. Lol. Your lack of belief in God and unicorns comes from a lack of scientific proof. I”ll support you as far as unicorns go. What unbelievers fail to grasp is that once you exercise that faith FIRST, only then u realise what is the truth. I’ve come to realize it’s so simple yet so complex for the unbeliever.


Unbeliever is an ok word I guess, just really vague. According to your description though it appears that God cannot live indepedently of me (and by extention man). This goes against your intended meaning but ironically unintentionally makes sense to me.

Also, although the lack of belief is due to lack of scientific proof, there are also many personal and philosophical benefits that I have experienced since leaving the faith. I used to be deeply religious, even contemplated becoming a priest at one point. I have found life much more rewarding and fullfilling since I gave up that idea and decided to live a secular life. We can get into that if you are interested.

As far as faith goes, I believe that faith is nothing more than a willful self induced placebo. I used to be very anti-religious after leaving the church but I've found myself becomming more tolerant recently after rebuilding myself independent of the teachings of the church (again, I don't mind going more in depth if you are interested).

In short, I have zero faith and zero belief in religion and God. However, I am not anti religious as I once was as I have come to recognise that good and bad are perpetuated by people regardless of their belief or non-belief. There are atheists that I will cringe to be associated with and priest that to this day I still hold in the highest regard and trust 100%. There are also priests that pedophiles and atheists that I admire.

My main issue is with anyone that claims that they have a monopoly on truth and that their truth is non-falsifiable. That always leads to ignorance before long.


If you know john 3:16 you would know where the “believer” concept came from. ...”whosoever believeth...”. That’s the belief concept and of course if you dont believe...unbeliever. Simple

I said no one (man) can live independently from God. Man depends on God. God does not depend on Man.

Sure u can explain better. I will listen. I will tell you this, you say u were in the faith once. Which one? While the belief concept is quite simple, the scriptures does say the road is narrow and there be few that find it. Alot of ppl get deceived into the wrong doctrine and develop a poor foundation so they depart from the faith. Maybe or maybe-not that was ur case. But as far as i have seen in my few years is that most are deceived into a weak doctrine that doesn’t warrant a change of heart but sumtin unsubstantial for one’s conviction.


I have no issue with what word you use to describe it as long as the meaning of what I am trying to convey is carried across. Description of Atheism according to wikipedia included below for clarity for people that think Atheism is a belief system. It's like saying being straight is a type of being gay.

A lot of morality can be derived from the golden rule which existed in many forms long before Christianity
"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others." - Confucius ~500BC
Note that that rule makes no mention of God or to a higher power.

A lot of morality can similarly be derived using innate empathy, common sense and reasoning. All you need to do is see all beings in the world as an extension of yourself. The Earth is one planet on which we all need to survive. Our society is interconnected and our actions can therefore have resounding consequences (both good and bad). Think of us as cells in a body. There are vast differences between many of us, some of us are harmful and cancerous but in the end we all need to work together to make life on Earth work. If you give me an example I can show you how morality can be derived using mostly this logic, independent of any reference to or need for belief in a deity.

Even the agnostics should have nothing to fear when religious people try to scare them into believing by saying that they will suffer eternal torment for not doing so. The can consider what was said by Marcus Aurelius
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

BTW, I don't think Marcus Aurelius was an Atheist. His book "Meditations" makes several references to God and "the logos". If you haven't read that book at yet I highly recommend it. It's free to download online. Just skip the 90 page intro.

FYI, I was in the Roman Catholic faith. In my opinion there is not a significant enough difference between Christian faiths to make a difference to me (except those "for profit prosperity gospel" faiths. They could f*ck right off). You are willing to try to convince me if you like.

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.


I will tell you that the RC faith is filled with the most erroneous doctrine right behind the JW. You say there is no significant difference between Christian faiths, boy u have no idea how different they are. If ur basis is only that they worship a Creator, then fair enough. The doctrine is what separates one from the other. It is good you could have seen the mess for what it is. If u look at the world, i believe RC dominates in numbers of the Christian faith. So many ppl deceived. Majority doesn’t mean it is right or is of God. And if formed by the roman empire well i see where u guys get ur historic views of christianity from. As i have said before, the truth is out there regardless of ones belief and it not gonna change. The only factor is when u learn it.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » May 8th, 2019, 1:19 pm

FordeG wrote:
Kasey wrote:Its how the fanatics respond when they cant properly articulate a sensible response. Name calling, attacking personality traits, and saying, "go back and read".

Circular logic: the bible says its right, so it has to be right.

napkin.jpg


If you cannot see the difference between the Bible and a napkin then you deserve hell for your stupidity. thanks for your kind wishes. Your god will be proud. Spoken like e true fanatic. But you obviously don't understand what the picture was about, and I don't have the time, nor crayons to explain it to you.

The Bible is a book that billions have and will follow, our entire morality and viewpoint of the model is shaped from the God inspired Bible. We owe almost everything we have to this so called 'fairy' tale. If MG's post went over your head also, same thing can be said about the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, and Playboy

You all remind me of one of those privildged spoil children, who succeeded in life all on their own. They forget it had anything to do with being rich, going to good schools, prayer to God, their parents sacrifices. No, everything they have now, they 'earned' it and owe none elseThis is something like me though, believe it or not, I have succeeded in life, without subscribing to any religion, I also had poor parents and they were not able to support me. But I have made it. I am not thankful to God, I am thankful to the people who I associated with during that journey. You may say God put them there, but that's because that's what you were taught to think, by your pastor or priest..

I knew that my message would go over your head. And if fear mongering worked with you, I can definitely not expect you to grasp anything I have to say. Just a side note, which bible did you read exactly? Can you even read Hebrew?
Last edited by Kasey on May 8th, 2019, 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Dizzy28 » May 8th, 2019, 1:22 pm

I will tell you that the RC faith is filled with the most erroneous doctrine right behind the JW. You say there is no significant difference between Christian faiths, boy u have no idea how different they are. If ur basis is only that they worship a Creator, then fair enough. The doctrine is what separates one from the other. It is good you could have seen the mess for what it is. If u look at the world, i believe RC dominates in numbers of the Christian faith. So many ppl deceived. Majority doesn’t mean it is right or is of God. And if formed by the roman empire well i see where u guys get ur historic views of christianity from. As i have said before, the truth is out there regardless of ones belief and it not gonna change. The only factor is when u learn it.


That also works both ways and because Christianity is the largest religion in the world doesn't mean that there aren't still billions of people who don't think it is the right way or of God.
You also can't prove them wrong otherwise.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 1:48 pm

Dizzy28 wrote:
I will tell you that the RC faith is filled with the most erroneous doctrine right behind the JW. You say there is no significant difference between Christian faiths, boy u have no idea how different they are. If ur basis is only that they worship a Creator, then fair enough. The doctrine is what separates one from the other. It is good you could have seen the mess for what it is. If u look at the world, i believe RC dominates in numbers of the Christian faith. So many ppl deceived. Majority doesn’t mean it is right or is of God. And if formed by the roman empire well i see where u guys get ur historic views of christianity from. As i have said before, the truth is out there regardless of ones belief and it not gonna change. The only factor is when u learn it.


That also works both ways and because Christianity is the largest religion in the world doesn't mean that there aren't still billions of people who don't think it is the right way or of God.
You also can't prove them wrong otherwise.


I was speaking in terms of christianity itself, not the whole world in general.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Dizzy28 » May 8th, 2019, 1:57 pm

eitech wrote:
Dizzy28 wrote:
I will tell you that the RC faith is filled with the most erroneous doctrine right behind the JW. You say there is no significant difference between Christian faiths, boy u have no idea how different they are. If ur basis is only that they worship a Creator, then fair enough. The doctrine is what separates one from the other. It is good you could have seen the mess for what it is. If u look at the world, i believe RC dominates in numbers of the Christian faith. So many ppl deceived. Majority doesn’t mean it is right or is of God. And if formed by the roman empire well i see where u guys get ur historic views of christianity from. As i have said before, the truth is out there regardless of ones belief and it not gonna change. The only factor is when u learn it.


That also works both ways and because Christianity is the largest religion in the world doesn't mean that there aren't still billions of people who don't think it is the right way or of God.
You also can't prove them wrong otherwise.


I was speaking in terms of christianity itself, not the whole world in general.


But it also works with Christianity put in there. B/c it became the most mainstream doesn't mean it is true or right. Just that it had the most likable story book out of many story books.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby maj. tom » May 8th, 2019, 2:32 pm

Or because the murdering colonists that invaded and committed mass genocide in the last 500 years against half of earth's population... were Christian. And believed that other skin colors and races and cultures were less than dogs and cattle.

Such morality.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 2:55 pm

Dizzy28 wrote:
eitech wrote:
Dizzy28 wrote:
I will tell you that the RC faith is filled with the most erroneous doctrine right behind the JW. You say there is no significant difference between Christian faiths, boy u have no idea how different they are. If ur basis is only that they worship a Creator, then fair enough. The doctrine is what separates one from the other. It is good you could have seen the mess for what it is. If u look at the world, i believe RC dominates in numbers of the Christian faith. So many ppl deceived. Majority doesn’t mean it is right or is of God. And if formed by the roman empire well i see where u guys get ur historic views of christianity from. As i have said before, the truth is out there regardless of ones belief and it not gonna change. The only factor is when u learn it.


That also works both ways and because Christianity is the largest religion in the world doesn't mean that there aren't still billions of people who don't think it is the right way or of God.
You also can't prove them wrong otherwise.


I was speaking in terms of christianity itself, not the whole world in general.


But it also works with Christianity put in there. B/c it became the most mainstream doesn't mean it is true or right. Just that it had the most likable story book out of many story books.


Well since u wanna put it that way, it doesn’t mean its wrong either.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Dizzy28 » May 8th, 2019, 3:03 pm

eitech wrote:
Dizzy28 wrote:
eitech wrote:
Dizzy28 wrote:
I will tell you that the RC faith is filled with the most erroneous doctrine right behind the JW. You say there is no significant difference between Christian faiths, boy u have no idea how different they are. If ur basis is only that they worship a Creator, then fair enough. The doctrine is what separates one from the other. It is good you could have seen the mess for what it is. If u look at the world, i believe RC dominates in numbers of the Christian faith. So many ppl deceived. Majority doesn’t mean it is right or is of God. And if formed by the roman empire well i see where u guys get ur historic views of christianity from. As i have said before, the truth is out there regardless of ones belief and it not gonna change. The only factor is when u learn it.


That also works both ways and because Christianity is the largest religion in the world doesn't mean that there aren't still billions of people who don't think it is the right way or of God.
You also can't prove them wrong otherwise.


I was speaking in terms of christianity itself, not the whole world in general.


But it also works with Christianity put in there. B/c it became the most mainstream doesn't mean it is true or right. Just that it had the most likable story book out of many story books.


Well since u wanna put it that way, it doesn’t mean its wrong either.


No it doesn't.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 8th, 2019, 3:05 pm

eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:Atheism, by definition, is a religious view.

Religion comes from the Latin word - religare - (re-back; ligare - to bind).

This means that one is bound to one's belief which guide one's actions.

Religion includes the belief that there is no supernatural realm.

Isaac Asimov - was an atheist "who believed that the universe is comprehensible within the bounds of natural law."

Does it not take belief to believe that the universe started with a big bang? Was anyone of us there to see it? If we were not, why do so many people believe what we never saw? Evidence and proof.

MGMan: Isn't that much like believing in God? Where is the non-circumstantial evidence and proof for God?


Quick question bluefete.... what word/s would you use to describe someone that lives independently of God?
Secular/ secularist?
Humanist?
Secular humanist?

I only ask because I find that a lot of the arguments about Atheism stem from semantics instead of the actual belief/ lack thereof.

So, let's say that God has as much of an impact on me as unicorns have on you. I don't believe that God exists and you (correct me if I am wrong) don't believe that unicorns exist. I don't attribute any importance to God and you (again correct me if I am wrong) don't attribute any importance to unicorns. I live my life completely independent of God and you (I hope) live your life completely independent of unicorns. My morality is not based off God and your morality is (sadly) not based of unicorns. I may think about God from time to time and you (really should) probably think about unicorns as well but God and the idea of God is ultimately of no consequence to me and unicorns (again correct me if I am wrong) are of no consequence to you.

Now how would you describe my lack of a belief in God in a way that is comparable to your lack of belief in unicorns? If unicorn is a bad example you can replace it with something else more misaligned to your beliefs.



Apologies for hijacking your question but i will loan you my 0.02c : Firstly i understand what ur tryin to mean by “independently” so i will answer in that regard. I prefer the term “unbelievers”. Simple as that.
Secondly, no one lives independently of God. It might seem so to you but he doesn’t wish for anyone to perish and tries to reach out to you in all sorts of ways. But the more you harden ur heart, the more distant you move. God doesn’t hide from man, it’s man who hides from God.
Thirdly, i am pretty sure you don’t believe in unicorns either but i see what you did there. Lol. Your lack of belief in God and unicorns comes from a lack of scientific proof. I”ll support you as far as unicorns go. What unbelievers fail to grasp is that once you exercise that faith FIRST, only then u realise what is the truth. I’ve come to realize it’s so simple yet so complex for the unbeliever.


Unbeliever is an ok word I guess, just really vague. According to your description though it appears that God cannot live indepedently of me (and by extention man). This goes against your intended meaning but ironically unintentionally makes sense to me.

Also, although the lack of belief is due to lack of scientific proof, there are also many personal and philosophical benefits that I have experienced since leaving the faith. I used to be deeply religious, even contemplated becoming a priest at one point. I have found life much more rewarding and fullfilling since I gave up that idea and decided to live a secular life. We can get into that if you are interested.

As far as faith goes, I believe that faith is nothing more than a willful self induced placebo. I used to be very anti-religious after leaving the church but I've found myself becomming more tolerant recently after rebuilding myself independent of the teachings of the church (again, I don't mind going more in depth if you are interested).

In short, I have zero faith and zero belief in religion and God. However, I am not anti religious as I once was as I have come to recognise that good and bad are perpetuated by people regardless of their belief or non-belief. There are atheists that I will cringe to be associated with and priest that to this day I still hold in the highest regard and trust 100%. There are also priests that pedophiles and atheists that I admire.

My main issue is with anyone that claims that they have a monopoly on truth and that their truth is non-falsifiable. That always leads to ignorance before long.


If you know john 3:16 you would know where the “believer” concept came from. ...”whosoever believeth...”. That’s the belief concept and of course if you dont believe...unbeliever. Simple

I said no one (man) can live independently from God. Man depends on God. God does not depend on Man.
Sure u can explain better. I will listen. I will tell you this, you say u were in the faith once. Which one? While the belief concept is quite simple, the scriptures does say the road is narrow and there be few that find it. Alot of ppl get deceived into the wrong doctrine and develop a poor foundation so they depart from the faith. Maybe or maybe-not that was ur case. But as far as i have seen in my few years is that most are deceived into a weak doctrine that doesn’t warrant a change of heart but sumtin unsubstantial for one’s conviction.


I have no issue with what word you use to describe it as long as the meaning of what I am trying to convey is carried across. Description of Atheism according to wikipedia included below for clarity for people that think Atheism is a belief system. It's like saying being straight is a type of being gay.

A lot of morality can be derived from the golden rule which existed in many forms long before Christianity
"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others." - Confucius ~500BC
Note that that rule makes no mention of God or to a higher power.
A lot of morality can similarly be derived using innate empathy, common sense and reasoning. All you need to do is see all beings in the world as an extension of yourself. The Earth is one planet on which we all need to survive. Our society is interconnected and our actions can therefore have resounding consequences (both good and bad). Think of us as cells in a body. There are vast differences between many of us, some of us are harmful and cancerous but in the end we all need to work together to make life on Earth work. If you give me an example I can show you how morality can be derived using mostly this logic, independent of any reference to or need for belief in a deity.

Even the agnostics should have nothing to fear when religious people try to scare them into believing by saying that they will suffer eternal torment for not doing so. The can consider what was said by Marcus Aurelius
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
BTW, I don't think Marcus Aurelius was an Atheist. His book "Meditations" makes several references to God and "the logos". If you haven't read that book at yet I highly recommend it. It's free to download online. Just skip the 90 page intro.

FYI, I was in the Roman Catholic faith. In my opinion there is not a significant enough difference between Christian faiths to make a difference to me (except those "for profit prosperity gospel" faiths. They could f*ck right off). You are willing to try to convince me if you like.

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.


I will tell you that the RC faith is filled with the most erroneous doctrine right behind the JW. You say there is no significant difference between Christian faiths, boy u have no idea how different they are. If ur basis is only that they worship a Creator, then fair enough. The doctrine is what separates one from the other. It is good you could have seen the mess for what it is. If u look at the world, i believe RC dominates in numbers of the Christian faith. So many ppl deceived. Majority doesn’t mean it is right or is of God. And if formed by the roman empire well i see where u guys get ur historic views of christianity from. As i have said before, the truth is out there regardless of ones belief and it not gonna change. The only factor is when u learn it.



I fully agree that majority and history does not make something correct, RC included. So tell me, what branch of Christianity do you follow and how is it significantly different? Also, how do you know that your branch of Christianity is correct?

Also, it's the over-arching ideas that I don't believe in. I don't believe in the creation story in genesis and I don't believe that genesis points to any prior knowledge of recent scientific theory of the big bang. I don't believe in the creation story of man and don't believe that the bible points to any prior knowledge of the theory of evolution. I think it was highly unlikely that Jesus was born of a virgin (I think there are rare cases of births without conception) but I definitely don't believe in the divine impregnation of Mary with Jesus' fetus. I don't believe Jesus died and came back to life after three days. I always found it convenient that they lost the body immediately after making that claim (i.e. when he "ascended" into heaven). I have no reason to believe revelations is anything more than the ramblings of a mad man, albeit a very creative mad man. In a broader sense, I don't see any divine control in anything in this world or anything that unequivocally points to an intelligent creator (the best argument I've seen is the flawed "God of the gaps" argument).

I studied Roman Catholicism because that is what I was born into. But through the study of that I lost all faith and belief in the idea of God. Since then, no other religion has appeared to make sense to me. I'm always open to hearing about other people's experiences though so feel free to share. Like many others I'm also just trying to find my way to what is true (and nobody, including me, has a monopoly on the truth) so feel free to try to convince me that I am wrong.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 4:26 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:Atheism, by definition, is a religious view.

Religion comes from the Latin word - religare - (re-back; ligare - to bind).

This means that one is bound to one's belief which guide one's actions.

Religion includes the belief that there is no supernatural realm.

Isaac Asimov - was an atheist "who believed that the universe is comprehensible within the bounds of natural law."

Does it not take belief to believe that the universe started with a big bang? Was anyone of us there to see it? If we were not, why do so many people believe what we never saw? Evidence and proof.

MGMan: Isn't that much like believing in God? Where is the non-circumstantial evidence and proof for God?


Quick question bluefete.... what word/s would you use to describe someone that lives independently of God?
Secular/ secularist?
Humanist?
Secular humanist?

I only ask because I find that a lot of the arguments about Atheism stem from semantics instead of the actual belief/ lack thereof.

So, let's say that God has as much of an impact on me as unicorns have on you. I don't believe that God exists and you (correct me if I am wrong) don't believe that unicorns exist. I don't attribute any importance to God and you (again correct me if I am wrong) don't attribute any importance to unicorns. I live my life completely independent of God and you (I hope) live your life completely independent of unicorns. My morality is not based off God and your morality is (sadly) not based of unicorns. I may think about God from time to time and you (really should) probably think about unicorns as well but God and the idea of God is ultimately of no consequence to me and unicorns (again correct me if I am wrong) are of no consequence to you.

Now how would you describe my lack of a belief in God in a way that is comparable to your lack of belief in unicorns? If unicorn is a bad example you can replace it with something else more misaligned to your beliefs.



Apologies for hijacking your question but i will loan you my 0.02c : Firstly i understand what ur tryin to mean by “independently” so i will answer in that regard. I prefer the term “unbelievers”. Simple as that.
Secondly, no one lives independently of God. It might seem so to you but he doesn’t wish for anyone to perish and tries to reach out to you in all sorts of ways. But the more you harden ur heart, the more distant you move. God doesn’t hide from man, it’s man who hides from God.
Thirdly, i am pretty sure you don’t believe in unicorns either but i see what you did there. Lol. Your lack of belief in God and unicorns comes from a lack of scientific proof. I”ll support you as far as unicorns go. What unbelievers fail to grasp is that once you exercise that faith FIRST, only then u realise what is the truth. I’ve come to realize it’s so simple yet so complex for the unbeliever.


Unbeliever is an ok word I guess, just really vague. According to your description though it appears that God cannot live indepedently of me (and by extention man). This goes against your intended meaning but ironically unintentionally makes sense to me.

Also, although the lack of belief is due to lack of scientific proof, there are also many personal and philosophical benefits that I have experienced since leaving the faith. I used to be deeply religious, even contemplated becoming a priest at one point. I have found life much more rewarding and fullfilling since I gave up that idea and decided to live a secular life. We can get into that if you are interested.

As far as faith goes, I believe that faith is nothing more than a willful self induced placebo. I used to be very anti-religious after leaving the church but I've found myself becomming more tolerant recently after rebuilding myself independent of the teachings of the church (again, I don't mind going more in depth if you are interested).

In short, I have zero faith and zero belief in religion and God. However, I am not anti religious as I once was as I have come to recognise that good and bad are perpetuated by people regardless of their belief or non-belief. There are atheists that I will cringe to be associated with and priest that to this day I still hold in the highest regard and trust 100%. There are also priests that pedophiles and atheists that I admire.

My main issue is with anyone that claims that they have a monopoly on truth and that their truth is non-falsifiable. That always leads to ignorance before long.


If you know john 3:16 you would know where the “believer” concept came from. ...”whosoever believeth...”. That’s the belief concept and of course if you dont believe...unbeliever. Simple

I said no one (man) can live independently from God. Man depends on God. God does not depend on Man.
Sure u can explain better. I will listen. I will tell you this, you say u were in the faith once. Which one? While the belief concept is quite simple, the scriptures does say the road is narrow and there be few that find it. Alot of ppl get deceived into the wrong doctrine and develop a poor foundation so they depart from the faith. Maybe or maybe-not that was ur case. But as far as i have seen in my few years is that most are deceived into a weak doctrine that doesn’t warrant a change of heart but sumtin unsubstantial for one’s conviction.


I have no issue with what word you use to describe it as long as the meaning of what I am trying to convey is carried across. Description of Atheism according to wikipedia included below for clarity for people that think Atheism is a belief system. It's like saying being straight is a type of being gay.

A lot of morality can be derived from the golden rule which existed in many forms long before Christianity
"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others." - Confucius ~500BC
Note that that rule makes no mention of God or to a higher power.
A lot of morality can similarly be derived using innate empathy, common sense and reasoning. All you need to do is see all beings in the world as an extension of yourself. The Earth is one planet on which we all need to survive. Our society is interconnected and our actions can therefore have resounding consequences (both good and bad). Think of us as cells in a body. There are vast differences between many of us, some of us are harmful and cancerous but in the end we all need to work together to make life on Earth work. If you give me an example I can show you how morality can be derived using mostly this logic, independent of any reference to or need for belief in a deity.

Even the agnostics should have nothing to fear when religious people try to scare them into believing by saying that they will suffer eternal torment for not doing so. The can consider what was said by Marcus Aurelius
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
BTW, I don't think Marcus Aurelius was an Atheist. His book "Meditations" makes several references to God and "the logos". If you haven't read that book at yet I highly recommend it. It's free to download online. Just skip the 90 page intro.

FYI, I was in the Roman Catholic faith. In my opinion there is not a significant enough difference between Christian faiths to make a difference to me (except those "for profit prosperity gospel" faiths. They could f*ck right off). You are willing to try to convince me if you like.

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.


I will tell you that the RC faith is filled with the most erroneous doctrine right behind the JW. You say there is no significant difference between Christian faiths, boy u have no idea how different they are. If ur basis is only that they worship a Creator, then fair enough. The doctrine is what separates one from the other. It is good you could have seen the mess for what it is. If u look at the world, i believe RC dominates in numbers of the Christian faith. So many ppl deceived. Majority doesn’t mean it is right or is of God. And if formed by the roman empire well i see where u guys get ur historic views of christianity from. As i have said before, the truth is out there regardless of ones belief and it not gonna change. The only factor is when u learn it.



I fully agree that majority and history does not make something correct, RC included. So tell me, what branch of Christianity do you follow and how is it significantly different? Also, how do you know that your branch of Christianity is correct?

Also, it's the over-arching ideas that I don't believe in. I don't believe in the creation story in genesis and I don't believe that genesis points to any prior knowledge of recent scientific theory of the big bang. I don't believe in the creation story of man and don't believe that the bible points to any prior knowledge of the theory of evolution. I think it was highly unlikely that Jesus was born of a virgin (I think there are rare cases of births without conception) but I definitely don't believe in the divine impregnation of Mary with Jesus' fetus. I don't believe Jesus died and came back to life after three days. I always found it convenient that they lost the body immediately after making that claim (i.e. when he "ascended" into heaven). I have no reason to believe revelations is anything more than the ramblings of a mad man, albeit a very creative mad man. In a broader sense, I don't see any divine control in anything in this world or anything that unequivocally points to an intelligent creator (the best argument I've seen is the flawed "God of the gaps" argument).

I studied Roman Catholicism because that is what I was born into. But through the study of that I lost all faith and belief in the idea of God. Since then, no other religion has appeared to make sense to me. I'm always open to hearing about other people's experiences though so feel free to share. Like many others I'm also just trying to find my way to what is true (and nobody, including me, has a monopoly on the truth) so feel free to try to convince me that I am wrong.


I do not subscribe to any of those named religions around Christianity. I prefer the term believer cuz dats what it is simply. Albeit i may already be placed in the same category nonetheless. I took a chance on this because i wanted to know the the truth and looking back now i saw how everything worked out well. Some could call it out right coincidence (its a really long story) but i knew something else was at play. So after i placed my trust in Jesus, something happened to me... i cant explain it really but i know something changed. Other believers can relate. I know it’s hard info to swallow and accept for what it is but at the end of the day I’ve lost nothing. I wont get into the scriptures although the explanation is there but thats my experience. Besides i was an unbeliever at one time so i know for a fact that convincing me was hard but 36 yrs late is still early. And i am not goin through any mid life crisis, financially or otherwise. I aint grow up in d church. As a matter of fact my family not in any church. What reason have i to make up this? Anyways, the masses may have a field day with this post but no matter, i know what i know.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Soul Collector » May 8th, 2019, 4:45 pm

eitech wrote:I do not subscribe to any of those named religions around Christianity. I prefer the term believer cuz dats what it is simply. Albeit i may already be placed in the same category nonetheless. I took a chance on this because i wanted to know the the truth and looking back now i saw how everything worked out well. Some could call it out right coincidence (its a really long story) but i knew something else was at play. So after i placed my trust in Jesus, something happened to me... i cant explain it really but i know something changed. Other believers can relate. I know it’s hard info to swallow and accept for what it is but at the end of the day I’ve lost nothing. I wont get into the scriptures although the explanation is there but thats my experience. Besides i was an unbeliever at one time so i know for a fact that convincing me was hard but 36 yrs late is still early. And i am not goin through any mid life crisis, financially or otherwise. I aint grow up in d church. As a matter of fact my family not in any church. What reason have i to make up this? Anyways, the masses may have a field day with this post but no matter, i know what i know.

Never participated in this thread I think and I only read the quoted post. Just wanted to say that I can relate to your experience. I actually grew up having to go to church because of Presbyterian primary school but it never meant anything to me. Mother is muslim, father sai baba, family just all over but no one actually "religious".

I think all it is, is a degree of faith. Faith in what is up to the individual but by believing that something higher is in play and living your life as such, it opens up a lot of things that would not have happened otherwise. Words like coincidence and synchronicity are often thrown around as well in convos like these.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 5:53 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
FordeG wrote:Just throwing it out there, Christians believe (myself included) that Jesus is the only way to salvation. This is why, we often come across as hard-line. But, when you have our faith and you know it is the true path, we are forcing our beliefs to save you. Please understand we want you to go to heaven.

Also, I will get flack for this I'm sure, but I don't see this debate as a religion vs atheist debate.

Being a Hindu to me, is even worse than being a non believer because you're opposing God's wishes even more. Might as well pray to Satan.

So.... the Earth is 4.5 billion years old,
1.(lets assume this is true)

2.(let’s assume this is true as well)
man has been around for about 200,000 years

and God only decided to send the means for salvation 2000 years ago
and only give a minority of the world's population a chance at salvation?

3.( u will have to ask when and how did man fall out of favor with God). In which case i can shift the timeline to suit. Assuming man fell out of favor 2000 yrs ago.

Why is God so hateful? Why did he create a world that results in the everlasting torment and punishment of the vast majority of human civilization. How am I supposed to respect or worship such a sadistic God?


God is not hateful. U need to understand what happened when man fell out of favor with God

Maybe you can provide insight on that. What did man do that was so drastic 2000 years ago that God had to come down personally to save us. Why did he choose that particular location? Has nothing worse happened before or since? In the past century alone we have had more war, genocide and hedonism than ever before, why is he leaving us die. Surely one visit 2000 years ago and one book with zero updates is not sufficient enough. If God is perfect then he should be a perfect communicator as well, why isn't his message getting across? Is this also our fault? Isn't that like a teacher blaming a child for not learning? Sure it can be the child's fault but how are we to know that it isn't also the teacher's fault? Because the teacher/ God said so? Wouldn't that assessment be a tad bit biased?

I am jus tryin to play out the reasoning eh

Yeah that's cool. I understand where you are coming from. You don't have to believe every stance you take in a debate. Sometimes you need to go outside and around your beliefs to get back to the truth.

I have no issue with peacefully preaching the faith as all there are invaluable philosophical truths included in most religious texts. I believe that religion is a placebo that some people can use to overcome obstacles. I take issue with people that resort to fear mongering to get you into the faith the way FordeG does. It's dishonest and annoying.


Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby abducted » May 8th, 2019, 5:55 pm

To the religious people in here, would you act or carry about yourself any differently if there was no God?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FordeG » May 8th, 2019, 9:19 pm

abducted wrote:To the religious people in here, would you act or carry about yourself any differently if there was no God?


What do you mean? Like we we explicitly knew we wouldn't be a punished for doing wrong? I myself can't adjust to a life like this but I can easily so many having no issue with stealing, horning, under age sex, giving in to homosexuality, murdering and raping. Again not me, but if there is no source of morals then I can see alot havoc

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 8th, 2019, 10:06 pm

FordeG wrote:
abducted wrote:To the religious people in here, would you act or carry about yourself any differently if there was no God?


What do you mean? Like we we explicitly knew we wouldn't be a punished for doing wrong? I myself can't adjust to a life like this but I can easily so many having no issue with stealing, horning, under age sex, giving in to homosexuality, murdering and raping. Again not me, but if there is no source of morals then I can see alot havoc

Wow! So you need someone to force you to not rape, steal, horn, murder or have sex with underaged girls? That's scary man. You really should read more.

Abducted, I honestly think a sigificant portion of religious people are good. I think the real question is if they can see themselves finding meaning in a mortal life outside of religion. I think that is what keeps a lot of people in the faith. They are afraid of that abyss that awaits them if they let it go.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 8th, 2019, 10:10 pm

eitech wrote:Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

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The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 10:17 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
FordeG wrote:
abducted wrote:To the religious people in here, would you act or carry about yourself any differently if there was no God?


What do you mean? Like we we explicitly knew we wouldn't be a punished for doing wrong? I myself can't adjust to a life like this but I can easily so many having no issue with stealing, horning, under age sex, giving in to homosexuality, murdering and raping. Again not me, but if there is no source of morals then I can see alot havoc

Wow! So you need someone to force you to not rape, steal, horn, murder or have sex with underaged girls? That's scary man. You really should read more.

Abducted, I honestly think a sigificant portion of religious people are good. I think the real question is if they can see themselves finding meaning in a mortal life outside of religion. I think that is what keeps a lot of people in the faith. They are afraid of that abyss that awaits them if they let it go.


Anyone can live a good life. From the unbeliever point of view if you believe when u die there is nothin after thats all well and fine with you. From the believer, he is to live a good life as well and he is prepared for what comes beyond death additionally. I will always maintain this point: if there is nothin after death and i just die, well i wont feel disappointed after cuz i would cease to exist. But, if i die and wasn’t prepared for the possibility of an afterlife...then what. Is just a thought to consider. One can hold one’s conviction and thats fair

I used to live a good life before. The difference now is i am prepared for what comes next.. and i will say this not because i dont hold my conviction true...jus to throw it out there, if nothin comes after i would have still lived a good life regardless

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matr1x » May 8th, 2019, 10:35 pm

To all the religious here....if your baby dying, and its destroying your wife from grief...and your God doesn't save your child, will you still pray after your child passed away?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FordeG » May 8th, 2019, 10:38 pm

God keeps us in check. We are all flawed. If there was no punishment the human race would be raping and pillaging.

That's why many of you atheists still adhere to Christian morals, it is your insurance incase there is a God and he's forgiving of your job believing.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FordeG » May 8th, 2019, 10:38 pm

matr1x wrote:To all the religious here....if your baby dying, and its destroying your wife from grief...and your God doesn't save your child, will you still pray after your child passed away?


What it's the point of your question? We can't question god's will son.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby sMASH » May 8th, 2019, 10:41 pm

y not?

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De Dragon
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby De Dragon » May 8th, 2019, 10:45 pm

sMASH wrote:y not?

There is a reason why so many sheep/flock/herd references are in the Bible.

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eitech
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 8th, 2019, 11:19 pm

matr1x wrote:To all the religious here....if your baby dying, and its destroying your wife from grief...and your God doesn't save your child, will you still pray after your child passed away?


I was tryin to steer clear of these type of questions because they are emotionally charged and usually carries d discussion in circles. Anyways this is my answer from my point of view: God never said a believer’s life was goin to be struggle free, or he wont suffer or experience hardship. That is life. All things work together for good to them that love God. It means never get disappointed. Things happen for a reason beyond what you can see just in front of you now. U cant see it but he knows the reasons. And the believer’s comfort is knowing that the child is in a better place now. Doesn’t diminish the fact that one would grieve. It doesn’t mean i should stop communication with God. When life is good we are happy, but as soon as bad times hit we want to blame God. Thats not how it works.

Anyways i probably spoke on deaf ears but thats just my view.

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