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bluefete
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 12th, 2019, 7:37 pm

maj. tom wrote:And where God came from?


Can you create yourself?

Is is so hard to conceptualize an ever existing creator?

If there is no God, the universe would not spontaneously combust because there would not be any matter/anti-matter.

Can science ever explain the first life forms without a creator?

You ever notice that scientific theories are accompanied by "possible", probably", "may", "could" and so on.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby maj. tom » May 12th, 2019, 7:56 pm

So is it so hard to conceptualize an ever existing universe?
Why did the universe have to be created? Why couldn't it have existed forever as a singularity before the direct observations we have made of the cosmic background radiation?

Do you know science is very much settled on the idea that we will never know what was there before? No life, no civilization, no entity in this entire universe for all the existing future can ever know that answer. But we should just stop looking, because God did it. And then how would you have atomic clocks to sync the internet with which to write your pinhole view of the world?

Did you know that science is very much settled on the idea that we don't know and will never know how life started? We have a good idea based on infinitesimal probabilities, but should we stop learning, exploring, discovering? According to you, yes. God did it, the end.

Can science ever explain God? Well maybe one day 6000 years from now, if such a being exists. Perhaps we just don't have the tools yet to observe God. But he sure doesn't exist based on the theories of your religious books, the absurd things that they claim, because we already have had those tools and have not observed anything yet. But again, we should just have stopped at inventing the steam engine and God did everything else. The end right?

Is it possible for you to think outside of the brainwashing you were given as a child? I posed a thought experiment about 4 pages back, but the badboy it was posed to threw a tantrum and just moved on without answering it. Can you try please?
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=23100#p9910582

I would like to hear the results of this if you can. I am open to continue learning about the universe and how other people see it.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 12th, 2019, 8:50 pm

I will give you a 2 fold answer. The 2nd one will address the link (thanks for it, btw).

Even if the universe was always existing (quite possible), it does not answer the question of how life started or originated. Even the 'great' Atheist Richard Dawkins, once said that life started in mud.

When I first heard that, I said that Dawkins believes in God and is fooling everyone.

Then a couple years ago, I found this:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/75 ... tion-bible

But of course, Dawkins being Dawkins failed to mention the biblical link because it would have destroyed his thesis.

Look at the language used - "might have been"; "more likely to be found" and so on.

It is ironic that you mentioned the steam engine because thousands of years ago a famous prophet stated that in the latter days 'knowledge shall be increased". Isn't that what is driving science and technology today?

In my father's lifetime, he lived through WW2, the Korean war, Vietnam, 9/11, the birth of modern computing, the dawn and growth of the space age including the moon landings, the rise of commercial air travel, the birth of the internet, magnetic trains, the Hubble telescope and many other amazing STEM discoveries. He understood what was written thousands of years ago. All these discoveries and events happened in less than 100 years.

According to Neil Armstrong (1994): "There are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available, to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers."


Now your question in the link about living in the future and having a different belief concept than today is quite plausible.

If you have lived your whole life without being exposed to God, that would not necessarily make you lost. The time when most people "discover" God is when they get sick. I mean really sick. Some curse away their sickness. Other start to understand their mortality and that science cannot do anything to stop death.

All the great scientific discoveries and inventions now and 5,000 years from now will not help us understand death any better. Cryogenics is the hope of resurrecting by freezing your live body before you die or your dead body after you die. Makes no sense to me. But it is one way science tries to counter death.

Interesting article: https://www.newsweek.com/cryonics-freez ... any-709999

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 12th, 2019, 9:27 pm

eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.


Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy


Cool. If you ever feel interested to really go down the rabbit hole check out the Vancouver debate between Jordan Peterson (clinical psycologist/ believer) and Sam Harris (neuroscientist/ atheist) on youtube. They both make excellent points for and against religion that I never even considered. They go far more in depth than any argument you will come across in this thread and both have a way or articulating ideas that you knew you had but couldn't truly find the words for. I'm sure you would like Jordan Peterson stuff.



Differentiating between my belief and another wont convince anyone of my belief still. One could argue well thats ur interpretation. The key question is how do i know that i am right. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If the God i believe in expresses himself through the written word and all he says about himself is true, then it is quite clear that the other religions are not. Many would take offense but thats it. I don’t need to read a hindu, islam, or any other book to know.
But not to stray from the real question, faith IS the evidence. It is the PROOF. Faith that leads to salvation is as easy making up ur mind, a change of heart, a thought. Something so simple and many people miss that point. You can do that in quiet moment alone. It’s not about goin in a church, or some pastor layin hands on you, or pushing ur head down in water, or a setta shouting and dancin, communion, speakin in tongues..... none of that nonsense or whatever u see with benny hinn and companies. Ur faith results in a personal relationship with God. I hope that answered ur question.
Anyways, i gonna watch the video u recommended and give my views


Faith is belief without evidence and by definition cannot be considered evidence by and of itself. That's a circular reasoning fallacy. But anyway, lets agree to disagree on this one. I'm not as interested in disproving religion as I used to be.

I'm more interested in the effects of religion and atheism because at the end of the day thats what really matters. That debate covers the negatives of both (dogmatic nature of religion and nihilistic/moral relative nature of atheism) as well as potential ways of thinking to overcome them.

The only thing I'll note from your reply is the fact that your belief is internal and you derivision of morality will most likely be as well even though it is inspired by the bible. This is an important distinction and a lot more favourable than religious fundamentalism IMO because you still have the power to battle against religious dogmatism.


Bare with me for a moment eh. You say faith is not the evidence but i am telling you it is. 1.Do you understand how that faith is exercised?
2.Do you know how long it will take you to get that evidence once you exercise that faith?
3.In your opinion, what do you think will happen if you exercise that faith?

Awaiting ur response.
No problem man.

1. So my understanding of faith is that it is a belief that is not based on evidence. "Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes" sums it up nicely I think. To exercise the faith means that you don't just believe in the teachings of the text but allow it to influence you actions and decisions.

2. I'm guessing that once you have faith (if you are using faith as your evidence) then by having faith you instantaneously gain the proof for it.

3. The effects of exercising the faith can be either good or bad depending on how you let it influence you. Performing charitable work in the name of God is good, keeping yazidi girls as sex slaves is bad. The problem arises when your holy book justifies atrocities and you commit them in good faith.

Now I say using faith as your proof is circular reasoning because you use your conclusion as your premise in the following manner
Premise
I believe that God exists and his teachings are true --> If I believe something then it must be true --> therefore God and his teachings are true because I believe in them --> I believe God exists and his teachings are true

Let me know if I misrepresented your argument or point of view anywhere.


1. Consider a person on their death bed and i told them to believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. A person in such a scenario wouldn’t even know about teachings from the text and as such cannot act upon that due to their current situation. If he just believes alone is the point i trying to make. You dont have to do anything prior. Just believe.


2. If point 1 is the action, and i said after believing u would have proof. What hinders a person from taking a moment if the result is instant?

I wont comment on what was said after. I am trying to get the foundation clear as day.

I tried explaining the concept of trust to someone else last week and it is hard for the unbeliever to grasp, i mean i was once there. But as i think of it more i am realising that trust may not be the actually issue, but the desire to know the truth has to be real. God will only reveal himself to you if you have that desire.

That sam harris/ jordan peterson debate was interesting. Alot of words i had to google. Lol. But those guys put alot of time and effort into their research. Not everyone can afford to to that, certainly not me. I have had only one source material and yet i could have related to many things he said if you look past the eloquent vocabulary.

Yeah don't feel bad. I had google assistant on speed dial for that debate. Regardless of your stance though, you are sure to learn something. But back to what you are saying.

If faith is all that is required and actions don't matter then the God you worship is clearly a very vain God. And brings me back to the Marcus Aurelius quote from earlier.

Now you talk about faith being all that I need. The problem with that is that I wasn't born an atheist. My parents were very strict catholics (in a good way, they practiced what they preached). I became very involved in the Church after graduating because I honestly wanted my knowledge of the faith to be on par with my knowledge of science as I believed that necessary to be a well rounded worshipper of God. I even toyed with the idea of going into the priesthood a couple times. My faith was unwaivering even though something felt wrong to me since I was a child. I thought this doubt was due to my ignorance and tried to purge it with more and more knowledge of the faith but the better my understanding became the stronger my doubt grew.

It all reached a tipping point one evening in while I was attending an all night mass and prayer vigil hostes by the pope with 2,000,000 other people from around the world. I had been taking part in world youth day for the two weeks prior.

Mid-hymn I looked around to take in the sureal scene of being in the midst of 2,000,000 people being "moved" by the spirit and swaying in time with eachother and the pleasant tune. The twinkle of a million candle lights in the cool night breeze was a sight to behold. The Irish girl I had been chatting to for the past couple hours still stood next to me. It was at that moment I heard my voice die and felt my faith die with it.

I'll be honest. I felt instantly sick. Like I needed to emotionally throw up, if that makes sense. You see, I had honestly given my faith my best shot. I tried my best to give myself to God and the church. I was "blessed with opportunities to speak with bishops and arch bishops from Spain, England and Rome. I did everything that I was told and obeyed God's laws to the letter and at what should have been the epitome of my spiritual experience I felt nothing.

Then I felt lied to. I felt betrayed. But, the worst part is, with no faith left I realised that tuere was no God to be the culprit. I betrayed and lied to myself. Since I could remember being concious I always knew that something felt off. I could still remember sitting at the end of the pew just in front of the side entrance to St. Mary's church (before they redid the cieling in 1998) when I first felt that uneasy feeling that something didn't make sense. I was 5 years old at the time and I was 21 years old now. It hurt to admit to myself that I had been ignoring my rationality for the past 16 years. At that moment I made a vow to never lie to myself again.

So you see, my lack of faith is not from lack of trying. Faith is defined as belief without proof and cannot be considered proof. How can something be considered as the same, as that thing that it is defined as the absence of? I guess by suspending logic and lying to yourself about your deductive reasoning. Similar to how atheism is considered a type of religious belief.

Anyway. Hope you enjoy reading that as much as I enjoyed writing. I'm trying to practice my prose. Lol. Gonna get to the rest of replies tmorrow. Game of thrones start so I'm out for tonight.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 12th, 2019, 10:22 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy


Cool. If you ever feel interested to really go down the rabbit hole check out the Vancouver debate between Jordan Peterson (clinical psycologist/ believer) and Sam Harris (neuroscientist/ atheist) on youtube. They both make excellent points for and against religion that I never even considered. They go far more in depth than any argument you will come across in this thread and both have a way or articulating ideas that you knew you had but couldn't truly find the words for. I'm sure you would like Jordan Peterson stuff.



Differentiating between my belief and another wont convince anyone of my belief still. One could argue well thats ur interpretation. The key question is how do i know that i am right. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If the God i believe in expresses himself through the written word and all he says about himself is true, then it is quite clear that the other religions are not. Many would take offense but thats it. I don’t need to read a hindu, islam, or any other book to know.
But not to stray from the real question, faith IS the evidence. It is the PROOF. Faith that leads to salvation is as easy making up ur mind, a change of heart, a thought. Something so simple and many people miss that point. You can do that in quiet moment alone. It’s not about goin in a church, or some pastor layin hands on you, or pushing ur head down in water, or a setta shouting and dancin, communion, speakin in tongues..... none of that nonsense or whatever u see with benny hinn and companies. Ur faith results in a personal relationship with God. I hope that answered ur question.
Anyways, i gonna watch the video u recommended and give my views


Faith is belief without evidence and by definition cannot be considered evidence by and of itself. That's a circular reasoning fallacy. But anyway, lets agree to disagree on this one. I'm not as interested in disproving religion as I used to be.

I'm more interested in the effects of religion and atheism because at the end of the day thats what really matters. That debate covers the negatives of both (dogmatic nature of religion and nihilistic/moral relative nature of atheism) as well as potential ways of thinking to overcome them.

The only thing I'll note from your reply is the fact that your belief is internal and you derivision of morality will most likely be as well even though it is inspired by the bible. This is an important distinction and a lot more favourable than religious fundamentalism IMO because you still have the power to battle against religious dogmatism.


Bare with me for a moment eh. You say faith is not the evidence but i am telling you it is. 1.Do you understand how that faith is exercised?
2.Do you know how long it will take you to get that evidence once you exercise that faith?
3.In your opinion, what do you think will happen if you exercise that faith?

Awaiting ur response.
No problem man.

1. So my understanding of faith is that it is a belief that is not based on evidence. "Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes" sums it up nicely I think. To exercise the faith means that you don't just believe in the teachings of the text but allow it to influence you actions and decisions.

2. I'm guessing that once you have faith (if you are using faith as your evidence) then by having faith you instantaneously gain the proof for it.

3. The effects of exercising the faith can be either good or bad depending on how you let it influence you. Performing charitable work in the name of God is good, keeping yazidi girls as sex slaves is bad. The problem arises when your holy book justifies atrocities and you commit them in good faith.

Now I say using faith as your proof is circular reasoning because you use your conclusion as your premise in the following manner
Premise
I believe that God exists and his teachings are true --> If I believe something then it must be true --> therefore God and his teachings are true because I believe in them --> I believe God exists and his teachings are true

Let me know if I misrepresented your argument or point of view anywhere.


1. Consider a person on their death bed and i told them to believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. A person in such a scenario wouldn’t even know about teachings from the text and as such cannot act upon that due to their current situation. If he just believes alone is the point i trying to make. You dont have to do anything prior. Just believe.


2. If point 1 is the action, and i said after believing u would have proof. What hinders a person from taking a moment if the result is instant?

I wont comment on what was said after. I am trying to get the foundation clear as day.

I tried explaining the concept of trust to someone else last week and it is hard for the unbeliever to grasp, i mean i was once there. But as i think of it more i am realising that trust may not be the actually issue, but the desire to know the truth has to be real. God will only reveal himself to you if you have that desire.

That sam harris/ jordan peterson debate was interesting. Alot of words i had to google. Lol. But those guys put alot of time and effort into their research. Not everyone can afford to to that, certainly not me. I have had only one source material and yet i could have related to many things he said if you look past the eloquent vocabulary.

Yeah don't feel bad. I had google assistant on speed dial for that debate. Regardless of your stance though, you are sure to learn something. But back to what you are saying.

If faith is all that is required and actions don't matter then the God you worship is clearly a very vain God. And brings me back to the Marcus Aurelius quote from earlier.

Now you talk about faith being all that I need. The problem with that is that I wasn't born an atheist. My parents were very strict catholics (in a good way, they practiced what they preached). I became very involved in the Church after graduating because I honestly wanted my knowledge of the faith to be on par with my knowledge of science as I believed that necessary to be a well rounded worshipper of God. I even toyed with the idea of going into the priesthood a couple times. My faith was unwaivering even though something felt wrong to me since I was a child. I thought this doubt was due to my ignorance and tried to purge it with more and more knowledge of the faith but the better my understanding became the stronger my doubt grew.

It all reached a tipping point one evening in while I was attending an all night mass and prayer vigil hostes by the pope with 2,000,000 other people from around the world. I had been taking part in world youth day for the two weeks prior.

Mid-hymn I looked around to take in the sureal scene of being in the midst of 2,000,000 people being "moved" by the spirit and swaying in time with eachother and the pleasant tune. The twinkle of a million candle lights in the cool night breeze was a sight to behold. The Irish girl I had been chatting to for the past couple hours still stood next to me. It was at that moment I heard my voice die and felt my faith die with it.

I'll be honest. I felt instantly sick. Like I needed to emotionally throw up, if that makes sense. You see, I had honestly given my faith my best shot. I tried my best to give myself to God and the church. I was "blessed with opportunities to speak with bishops and arch bishops from Spain, England and Rome. I did everything that I was told and obeyed God's laws to the letter and at what should have been the epitome of my spiritual experience I felt nothing.

Then I felt lied to. I felt betrayed. But, the worst part is, with no faith left I realised that tuere was no God to be the culprit. I betrayed and lied to myself. Since I could remember being concious I always knew that something felt off. I could still remember sitting at the end of the pew just in front of the side entrance to St. Mary's church (before they redid the cieling in 1998) when I first felt that uneasy feeling that something didn't make sense. I was 5 years old at the time and I was 21 years old now. It hurt to admit to myself that I had been ignoring my rationality for the past 16 years. At that moment I made a vow to never lie to myself again.

So you see, my lack of faith is not from lack of trying. Faith is defined as belief without proof and cannot be considered proof. How can something be considered as the same, as that thing that it is defined as the absence of? I guess by suspending logic and lying to yourself about your deductive reasoning. Similar to how atheism is considered a type of religious belief.

Anyway. Hope you enjoy reading that as much as I enjoyed writing. I'm trying to practice my prose. Lol. Gonna get to the rest of replies tmorrow. Game of thrones start so I'm out for tonight.


Just to clear the air on your first statement, faith is just the initial stepping stone or foundation. After that works come into play. Jus to quote:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The works or teachings come after of course.

I can really empathize with your story. I was actually watching a video hosted by Justin Peters today and he said somethin that i now see. He said bad doctrine can have a catastrophic effect on a person’s life, meaning it can really mess up your view of God with incorrect information. But look at it this way the constant is that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. In all this I have tried to give you a different perspective on what it really is. Jus food for thought.

Waiting to download my copy of GOT too

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 13th, 2019, 6:46 am

Slartibartfast wrote: I wasn't born an atheist. I became very involved in the Church after graduating because I honestly wanted my knowledge of the faith to be on par with my knowledge of science as I believed that necessary to be a well rounded worshipper of God. I even toyed with the idea of going into the priesthood a couple times. My faith was unwavering even though something felt wrong to me since I was a child. (You were indoctrinated and that became part of your problem. When you started to question, you did not get the right answers. Church doctrine and what God wants us to understand are 2 very different thing.)

It all reached a tipping point one evening in while I was attending an all night mass and prayer vigil hosted by the pope (There you go! More indoctrination and propaganda)with 2,000,000 other people from around the world. I had been taking part in world youth day for the two weeks prior.

Mid-hymn I looked around to take in the sureal scene of being in the midst of 2,000,000 people being "moved" by the spirit and swaying in time with eachother and the pleasant tune. The twinkle of a million candle lights in the cool night breeze was a sight to behold. The Irish girl I had been chatting to for the past couple hours still stood next to me. It was at that moment I heard my voice die and felt my faith die with it.

I'll be honest. I felt instantly sick. Like I needed to emotionally throw up, if that makes sense. You see, I had honestly given my faith my best shot. I tried my best to give myself to God and the church. I was "blessed with opportunities to speak with bishops and arch bishops from Spain, England and Rome. I did everything that I was told and obeyed God's laws to the letter(That was the Church's law NOT God's law) and at what should have been the epitome of my spiritual experience I felt nothing.

Then I felt lied to. I felt betrayed. But, the worst part is, with no faith left I realised that there was no God to be the culprit. I betrayed and lied to myself. Since I could remember being concious I always knew that something felt off. I could still remember sitting at the end of the pew just in front of the side entrance to St. Mary's church (before they redid the cieling in 1998) when I first felt that uneasy feeling that something didn't make sense. I was 5 years old at the time and I was 21 years old now. It hurt to admit to myself that I had been ignoring my rationality for the past 16 years. At that moment I made a vow to never lie to myself again.

Faith is defined as belief without proof and cannot be considered proof. How can something be considered as the same, as that thing that it is defined as the absence of? I guess by suspending logic and lying to yourself about your deductive reasoning. Similar to how atheism is considered a type of religious belief.

Anyway. Hope you enjoy reading that as much as I enjoyed writing. I'm trying to practice my prose. Lol. Gonna get to the rest of replies tmorrow. Game of thrones start so I'm out for tonight.


This was a nice read. So, just like me, you started to question and God helped you to understand that what you were worshipping and believing was not really about him. You were propagandized into a doctrine that was far removed from what God wanted. That is religion generally. It is not until you read the scriptures for yourself (Bible, Koran, Gita etc) that you start to get an understanding of God's nature and existence.

In your case, you went the way of non-belief. Deep in your heart you know. But, you are waiting for proof. One day, it will come in a way you do not expect.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 13th, 2019, 7:21 am

This is why I ask you guys to outline exactly what you believe that you think makes your arguments so convincing and your reasoning so sure. I have yet to find an argument that does not defy logic. Saying that I left the faith due to bad doctrine is a cheap cop out without know how I was indoctrinated. At least provide me with the "good doctrine" that everyone speaks of. I have yet to hear arguments that come close to what I was taught years ago. I known priests get a bad rep for the pedophelia and backwards thinking sometimes but there are priests out there that are highly qualified and skilled philosophers. In fact, it was a priest that lectured me in philosophy. The priests I have met have dedicated their life to studying the bible and philosophy. Why do you think that they would not be qualified to form an opinion on belief independent of the Church.

I am saying that despite the best arguments I've heard to date, I still see no more reason to believe in God than unicorns. I'm saying that seep in my heart I always knew that there was no reason for me to believe.

Also, I'm not saying I have to reason to believe in Jesus or the Christian God. I'm saying that I see no reason to believe in any God. I'm open to hearing about all religions and personal faith systems.

The best arguments I've heard for religion to date are those of Jordan Peterson and he changed my mind to think that the "baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater" so to speak. So what interests me the most right now is sorting the baby from the bathwater when it comes to religions. I mean, after studying this for decades, it will always fascinate and interest me. That's why I always get sucked back into this thread. :lol:

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 13th, 2019, 9:36 am

Slartibartfast wrote:This is why I ask you guys to outline exactly what you believe that you think makes your arguments so convincing and your reasoning so sure. I have yet to find an argument that does not defy logic. Saying that I left the faith due to bad doctrine is a cheap cop out without know how I was indoctrinated. At least provide me with the "good doctrine" that everyone speaks of. I have yet to hear arguments that come close to what I was taught years ago. I known priests get a bad rep for the pedophelia and backwards thinking sometimes but there are priests out there that are highly qualified and skilled philosophers. In fact, it was a priest that lectured me in philosophy. The priests I have met have dedicated their life to studying the bible and philosophy. Why do you think that they would not be qualified to form an opinion on belief independent of the Church.

I am saying that despite the best arguments I've heard to date, I still see no more reason to believe in God than unicorns. I'm saying that seep in my heart I always knew that there was no reason for me to believe.

Also, I'm not saying I have to reason to believe in Jesus or the Christian God. I'm saying that I see no reason to believe in any God. I'm open to hearing about all religions and personal faith systems.

The best arguments I've heard for religion to date are those of Jordan Peterson and he changed my mind to think that the "baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater" so to speak. So what interests me the most right now is sorting the baby from the bathwater when it comes to religions. I mean, after studying this for decades, it will always fascinate and interest me. That's why I always get sucked back into this thread. :lol:


Why do you think so many ppl get indoctrinated? Tell them something they want to hear from a person in authority. Look at how many ppl have been deceived. False doctrine is real. You cannot use ur logic to decipher good doctrine.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned.

But above all, if you hold on to your reasoning of faith you would never get it. That’s the point you need to see for yourself to understand

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 13th, 2019, 10:01 am

eitech wrote:But above all, if you hold on to your reasoning of faith you would never get it. That’s the point you need to see for yourself to understand

Of course not. Reasoning is how we make sense of the world. Is your argument basically telling me that it won't make sense if I think about it so what I need to do is not think about it and just accept that it makes sense (but not think about it making sense because it doesn't make sense if i think about it?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 13th, 2019, 12:46 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:But above all, if you hold on to your reasoning of faith you would never get it. That’s the point you need to see for yourself to understand

Of course not. Reasoning is how we make sense of the world. Is your argument basically telling me that it won't make sense if I think about it so what I need to do is not think about it and just accept that it makes sense (but not think about it making sense because it doesn't make sense if i think about it?


Ur right. Reasoning is how we make sense of the world. What i am speakin of is something not of this world. Remember, the evidence of things not seen. By way of natural reasoning it will never make sense.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » May 13th, 2019, 1:02 pm

MG Man wrote:
Ben_spanna wrote:Everyone has to believe that whatever they grew up knowing as their primary religion should be the true gateway to afterlife. Its just up to people to respect everyones individual upbringings and beliefs.



I have a serious problem with this. Why are we required / expected to respect other ppl religious beliefs? I have a deep love and passion for my old car....probably more than some have for jesus / allah / bramha....does that mean out of respect for my deep rooted belief and lifestyle that nobody should poke fun at me and my car? Of course not, that would be crazy
Yet, Bob believes in a man in the sky and it's cool to walk around a chunk of meteorite embedded in an old building, and it's criminal to point and laugh? Jane believes in a ghost who died but really didn't because he was immortal anyway, thereby absolving himself of any true sacrifice, and I can't kyak kyak when her procession ledd by a dude toting a heavy plank is walking up Sando hill?????
One of the most gross crimes against humanity is this thing about respecting religious beliefs....heck the same ones who demand it are the same ones who send out missionaries to convert those who believe in other stuff....

Everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want, but NOBODY should be denied the right to point and laugh at the beliefs of others

Most sense I have read since last year

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 13th, 2019, 2:35 pm

eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:But above all, if you hold on to your reasoning of faith you would never get it. That’s the point you need to see for yourself to understand

Of course not. Reasoning is how we make sense of the world. Is your argument basically telling me that it won't make sense if I think about it so what I need to do is not think about it and just accept that it makes sense (but not think about it making sense because it doesn't make sense if i think about it?


Ur right. Reasoning is how we make sense of the world. What i am speakin of is something not of this world. Remember, the evidence of things not seen. By way of natural reasoning it will never make sense.


By way of any reasoning at all it does not make sense.

Evidence for things not seen means still assumes some form of tangible evidence. Black holes weren't seen until earlier this year, yet we've had mountains of measurable andd tangible proof for them with theories dating back decades. What you speak of cannot be considered as evidence by any meaning of the word.

All you have to do is replace "God" in every instance of your argument with "unicorns" to see how ridiculous it sounds.

Unicorns are not of this world so you therefore cannot understand them. Have faith in their existence and they will exist. Faith is all the proof that you need that unicorns exist. Your faith is your evidence for unicorns unseen.

This ridiculous line of reasoning purported in religious arguments is what never sat right with me and is what ultimately drive me out of the faith. The "indoctrination" that everyone seems to bash is actually what made the most sense to me and kept me in the faith for so long. There is a lot of good philosophy in the bible, though it is not exclusive to the bible. I have yet to find an argument that convinces me that I made the wrong decision.

Jordan Peterson at least put forth a strong argument to not rid the world of religion. I try to show that to religious people that are interested because I think his ideas offer a way to actually reconcile religion with atheism.

I will say this, if all the world lost all religion and religious reference overnight it would be extremely bad. Conversely if everyone woke up tomorrow as a devout worshipper (regardless of religion) it would also be. This suggests that rather than working towards either extreme, there appears to be an ideal middle ground that everyone seems to be ignoring.

I'm no longer interested in disproving religion, I'm interested in proving that worshipers and atheists can support and empower eachother in a way that is good.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby MG Man » May 13th, 2019, 2:41 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
I'm no longer interested in disproving religion, I'm interested in proving that worshipers and atheists can support and empower eachother in a way that is good.


you letting that design award for Norway go to your head
What we need is a world driven by humanism: yes you can be an aishole because there is no afterlife consequence, but we'd really rather you didn't because it's not cool, and here's some laws we can throw at your delinquent aiss if you insist on being a tool about it

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » May 13th, 2019, 3:54 pm

FordeG wrote:I feel like either bouncing his vehicle or setting of the alarm constantly to irritate him.

WWJD?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Zetski » May 13th, 2019, 5:03 pm

I can end this entire religious discussion in one line.... watch me

DNA disproves the evolution theory.. DNA doesn’t code new information.. only from existing. :drinking:

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby zoom rader » May 13th, 2019, 5:10 pm

Zetski wrote:I can end this entire religious discussion in one line.... watch me

DNA disproves the evolution theory.. DNA doesn’t code new information.. only from existing. :drinking:
DNA testing works,

Had one done it shows all your health issues and helps you in treating and preventing them from becoming a major issue.

Plus it shows your genetic ethic make up

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby maj. tom » May 13th, 2019, 5:10 pm

Really now Zetski? I see you don't know anything about DNA or reproduction.
So how mutations that randomly arise are passed onto the next generation?

I suggest that you do some more reading. I found one of the simplest websites that could explain this, with diagrams for you: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibra ... tations_04

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Zetski » May 13th, 2019, 5:55 pm

maj. tom wrote:Really now Zetski? I see you don't know anything about DNA or reproduction.
So how mutations that randomly arise are passed onto the next generation?

I suggest that you do some more reading. I found one of the simplest websites that could explain this, with diagrams for you: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibra ... tations_04


I have the perfect counter for your argument.

RNA 8-)

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby maj. tom » May 13th, 2019, 6:11 pm

you saying RNA is a counter?! To what? RNA translates DNA into proteins by using a 3-nucleotide to 1 amino acid codon. You really don't know do you...
I won't embarrass you. But do some more reading ok?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » May 16th, 2019, 4:15 pm

^^He wont be able to, Someone is advising his retorts......poorly.......prolly his pastor.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 21st, 2019, 10:28 am

Guess who are the evolutionists?

Image

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby hydroep » May 31st, 2019, 10:19 pm


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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Rovin » August 21st, 2019, 12:22 pm

not making offense about anybody religion eh but ...

https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... Dre5a6e4rc

Car stolen while priest blesses house

Roman Catholic Priest, Father Urban Hudlin’s car was stolen last Saturday while he was visiting a home in Diego Martin.

Hudlin, who is stationed at the Holy Cross Priory in Arima, was reportedly at the home to bless it.

While praying, his vehicle was stolen.

He is said to be traumatised by the experience.

Father Hudlin’s possessions, including an iPad and other important documents were still inside the vehicle.

The car is a blue Wingroad license plate PCL 4508.


Family members say that the vehicle was recovered with the license plate already swapped.

It is uncertain if Hudlin’s possessions were also recovered.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » August 21st, 2019, 1:06 pm

Rovin wrote:not making offense about anybody religion eh but ...

https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... Dre5a6e4rc

Car stolen while priest blesses house

Roman Catholic Priest, Father Urban Hudlin’s car was stolen last Saturday while he was visiting a home in Diego Martin.

Hudlin, who is stationed at the Holy Cross Priory in Arima, was reportedly at the home to bless it.

While praying, his vehicle was stolen.

He is said to be traumatised by the experience.

Father Hudlin’s possessions, including an iPad and other important documents were still inside the vehicle.

The car is a blue Wingroad license plate PCL 4508.


Family members say that the vehicle was recovered with the license plate already swapped.

It is uncertain if Hudlin’s possessions were also recovered.


There is nothin to be offended about here. Some like to preach no weapon formed against them will prosper....believers get sick, robbed, die, all the same...

A couple years ago a RC priest was interviewed for xmas and he said he stopped blessing toys cuz its not scriptural but if others want to do it he has no problem. That shows you the level of ignorance. And they continue to bless inanimate objects and ppl who don’t know better will feel good. No value whatsoever.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » August 21st, 2019, 6:06 pm

I remember when I was a child the priest said "all who did not come to mass on Christmas day, sit down. No blessing for your toy." Or some such.

And they want to know why I am against Religious Doctrine today.

eitech wrote:
Rovin wrote:not making offense about anybody religion eh but ...

https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... Dre5a6e4rc

Car stolen while priest blesses house

Roman Catholic Priest, Father Urban Hudlin’s car was stolen last Saturday while he was visiting a home in Diego Martin.

Hudlin, who is stationed at the Holy Cross Priory in Arima, was reportedly at the home to bless it.

While praying, his vehicle was stolen.

He is said to be traumatised by the experience.

Father Hudlin’s possessions, including an iPad and other important documents were still inside the vehicle.

The car is a blue Wingroad license plate PCL 4508.


Family members say that the vehicle was recovered with the license plate already swapped.

It is uncertain if Hudlin’s possessions were also recovered.


There is nothin to be offended about here. Some like to preach no weapon formed against them will prosper....believers get sick, robbed, die, all the same...

A couple years ago a RC priest was interviewed for xmas and he said he stopped blessing toys cuz its not scriptural but if others want to do it he has no problem. That shows you the level of ignorance. And they continue to bless inanimate objects and ppl who don’t know better will feel good. No value whatsoever.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby sMASH » August 21st, 2019, 6:45 pm

me eh unnahstanz why he traumatized...

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby ScHoolboySoloQ » August 23rd, 2019, 1:10 am

when i was a little boy i was poor and my mother did not have money to send me to school that day. she prayed to God to help then a few moments later she found 200 dollars in the grass on the side of the road. that is how i know God does exist. also there was a time i was being choked at night and i said jesus jesus jesus. it stopped afterwards.

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