The Religion Discussion

[Sky]

man + logic / God = fail
Man + faith * God = pass

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Jussaying

so you are saying do not use logic?

I'm. Saying yes use it, but not as the foundation to base things from the bible on

So nevermind that they found the ark.
Nevermind all the other stories that checked out good with evidence.
Nevermind that despite their disagreements, many religions speak about a holy man born of a virgin that did unreal tasks.
Nevermind all of that, and much much more, and blindly believe.


Hey can I borrow your car? I need to go buy pampers for my 2 year old.

[Kasey]

Why don't Christians be honest and say what is the faith of those who don't follow their faith from Christian Theology?

I am very sorry to say this, as the author's feelings will be hurt, but... what exactly does this heap of codswallop mean?
I have taught the use of the English language for decades (and Religion even longer) and I have absolutely no idea what this nonsensical hobgobbery is supposed to mean.

WHOOGADDOUI!!!! LOL!!!!

If everyone else will go to hell, then aren't you being selfish by not sharing what you know. 300 pages and years of old talk and you wouldn't say "guys...this is for you too!!" Come on be honest. Otherwise you wasting time.

That means YOU HAVEN'T READ A SINGLE THING I WROTE.
I have said QUITE CLEARLY that each of us has to find his path.
What is YOUR PROBLEM? YOU CAN'T READ? Or you won't?

That statement of yours also means that you haven't a clue as to what this discussion is about. This is not a "convert the heathen" thread. This is a DISCUSSION.

Look people, I am delivering a message to you, take it or leave it, I ent go vex.

This is a DISCUSSION. Use PM for messaging, okay?
In a discussion, one party will make a statement or ask a question. The other parties either answer the query or make statements in response.
There is no "taking" and "leaving". If you want a soap-box, grow a pair and build yourself a mosque/church/wossname.

Please ask if you do not understand, rather than make errant statements - this will only cause you embarrassment, and make you seem less knowledgeable than you wish.

Too Late!!! We already establish the intellectual ability of this individual

[brams112]

When you judge another,you do not define them,you define yourself.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

man + logic / God = fail
Man + faith * God = pass

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Jussaying

so you are saying do not use logic?

I'm. Saying yes use it, but not as the foundation to base things from the bible on

wha? are you sure you are a Christian?

because to me you just said the bible is not logical

[sMASH]

would u mind not answering that, untillllllllllllllll spike finishes what he has started....

[AdamB]

When you judge another,you do not define them,you define yourself.

Quite right there. When GOD ALMIGHTY (ALLAH ) judges us all on that dreadful day, HE will define HIMSELF as The Judge and The Just.
http://abdurrahman.org/tawheed/asmawasi ... s-sadi.pdf

[AdamB]

@dspike , You are the one throwing the hollow remarks. Notice I have stopped with the remarks and just posting the Islamic viewpoints. But it seems like you need to have someone with whom to fight. Sorry, that's not going to be me for much longer as you notice also that I have been ignoring you because you are not presenting your evidences as requested.

You said "I have said QUITE CLEARLY that each of us has to find his path." But you all said that Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me". Seems like a contradiction but that's YOUR logic.

Where will non-christians go after the day of judgement ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY?

You say USE LOGIC but Red fraction say DON'T USE LOGIC to understand the Bible. Which is it? Seems like Duane is the only other logical thinking person here!

BTW Duane, can you comment on dspike's explanation of the Trinity?

@Kasey,
I have been on this thread for almost a month and I don't recall any SIGNIFICANT point you brought to the discussion except to call MajTom and I babies and Bozos. Maybe that's significant to you or your intellectual capacity. Or maybe you're just a bandwagonist / muslim hater like possibly a couple of others here.

The truth offends but guess what THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!

[sMASH]

u probably would watch the parliament channel and be aghast as to how our parliamentary reps behave.

[Sky]

@Kasey,
I have been on this thread for almost a month and I don't recall any SIGNIFICANT point you brought to the discussion except to call MajTom and I babies and Bozos. Maybe that's significant to you or your intellectual capacity. Or maybe you're just a bandwagonist / muslim hater like possibly a couple of others here.

The truth offends but guess what THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!

Or maybe he's just like me and was heavily in the discussion a few dozen pages back and just gave up now because the babies and bozos stuck in their way and not open to any logical discussion.

Btw, your evidence is from a book, so I don't see why Spike not producing evidence has any significance. Especially when your book is wrong without the other books
I said it a hundred pages back and I will say it again. Ever wonder why the Muslims, Jews and Christians fighting over Jerusalem? Because it's all the same God dummay. And when I say dummay I mean every religious nut. Issac and Ishmael, Abraham, Isa, Krishna. All connected meng. It's just that the muslims actually have their heads screwed on the tightest, but still, they have one piece of the puzzle and should welcome the other pieces.

[maj. tom]

@Kasey,
I have been on this thread for almost a month and I don't recall any SIGNIFICANT point you brought to the discussion except to call MajTom and I babies and Bozos. Maybe that's significant to you or your intellectual capacity. Or maybe you're just a bandwagonist / muslim hater like possibly a couple of others here.

The truth offends but guess what THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!

AdamB please do not put my name and yours in the same sentence or on the same intellection of argument. I really do not want to have any sort of affiliation with you or your ideas. And anyone who was reading my posts would realize that I consider you a fanatic lol-cow. Quite amusing online but highly dangerous in real life if left to pursue your despot ideas openly. You have absolutely no idea how brainwashed you are. And that's just fine with me.

I also happened to agree with Kasey's criticism of my remarks by the way, and in the good nature and spirit of educated discussion I apologised accordingly to the parties involved and stuck to the guidelines.

I think if people started a Harry Potter religion now, it will catch on in a few hundred years as a firm religious belief. There's literature to back up everything and the non-existence of magic would just be the same label we put on "god" now.

[sMASH]

look how far pastafarianism is, and that was just a little more than a meme.

[MG Man]

look how far pastafarianism is, and that was just a little more than a meme.

His Noodleyness knows how to let His truth be known

[Kasey]

@Kasey,
I have been on this thread for almost a month and I don't recall any SIGNIFICANT point you brought to the discussion except to call MajTom and I babies and Bozos. Maybe that's significant to you or your intellectual capacity. Or maybe you're just a bandwagonist / muslim hater like possibly a couple of others here.

The truth offends but guess what THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!

WOW!! A WHOLE MONTH!! Thats almost as long as me, who have been on this thread since 2009.........

And who have seen your kind come and go by the hundreds(maybe exaggerating it a lil). Repeated my input many times and got fedup.

I have not the patience of dspike, sMASH, Duane, and the like, but have grown to respect them and many more others here, because of the mutual respect they expound in their writings. Spikey especially, requires a more careful examination of his points, if you are not accustomed to debating on that particular level.

The forum here makes level ground for EVERYONE. Thats the nice thing.
No church supporters behind u going 'AMEN' every time they here something from the bible.
No Hindu group behind u going 'JAI' every time they here something from the Ramayan or gita
No Muslims behind u saying 'Praise be to Allah' every time they here something from the 'Quaran'.
Everyone gets a chance because each of us are alone behind our computer.

Maybe Megadoc and bluefete have obtained some understanding about the whole scheme of things? IMHO mega has been pretty cool recently. Argued with a good degree of mutual respect, and sticking to his beliefs. Teach Red Fraction somm nah.

[dnoah]

[quote="d spike"]300 pages long... and the truest thing ever said within these pages is:


if your faith low, this statement have the potential to destroy you because it making sense.When you think about it are we just beliveing in a book because the book say's its true? for me this can't be all to it.This book must be free from all doubt,because if it is from god there cant be any mistakes in it and this book must not demand belief, it must invites you to belief by give in you evidence.
so i was wondering have anyone ever found anything in your religious book that made u doubtful
or some thing that is 100% wrong and what did u do? did u just go with it because the book say so?

[d spike]

@dspike , You are the one throwing the hollow remarks. Notice I have stopped with the remarks and just posting the Islamic viewpoints. But it seems like you need to have someone with whom to fight.

Congratulations on learning to stick to what you know. My concern was the erroneous comments you had made about a religion you clearly know little about. My remarks are neither hollow nor aggressive. If you cannot tell the difference between someone correcting mistakes you make and someone wishing to fight, then there is little I can do about that.

I have been ignoring you because you are not presenting your evidences as requested.

I have already made it clear where you can find the information you seek, and I have also made it clear that all you are interested in is getting preset targets.

You said "I have said QUITE CLEARLY that each of us has to find his path." But you all said that Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me". Seems like a contradiction but that's YOUR logic.

Yes, it does SEEM like a contradiction - but that doesn't mean it IS. I have already explained this point before, but as you refuse to look at what went before you set foot here, let me post it once more:

One of the most important statements of Jesus is "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one can come to the Father except through me."
Christians hold onto this statement like a banner at a football match, waving it in the face of non-Christians ("we win! we win! we win!") when it actually means something far, far different, far more all-encompassing than the seemingly literal meaning of in-the-name-of Jesus-I-going-heaven stuff (taking scripture literally ALWAYS is a path of head-butting walls and stump-toe... )
Be rational. Jesus ain't no road... and literally going through someone isn't particularly pleasant... so obviously, Jesus was referring to following his teachings about himself - the path he laid out for us, goes to the Father. When we try to look at who Jesus is, he keeps showing us a concept, that of love. "He who loves me, obeys my commandments", "Love one another...", "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me" and so forth.
Therefore, the path to God is through love. Doesn't matter what you call it, where you worship, (if you perform 'communal worship'), what name you call him by...

The point of our existence here may very well be to learn to care for one another... one big, ant farm experiment to prove that love is supreme...
...to pick ourselves up from the mistakes that we make, to heal, to forgive... and to continue, striving in this reality to make the choices that we will be rewarded for in the next, and make this place a better place to live in, despite the turmoil, the earthquakes, the idiots...

Where will non-christians go after the day of judgement ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY?

IF you read the quote above, you will find that their reward is the same as everyone else. One goes to what one strives for, be it love or self.

You say USE LOGIC but Red fraction say DON'T USE LOGIC to understand the Bible.

Clearly you have just discovered that not everyone agrees on certain concepts. Hopefully, this knowledge will cause you to develop the virtue of Tolerance.

[d spike]

300 pages long... and the truest thing ever said within these pages is:

if your faith low, this statement have the potential to destroy you because it making sense.

The problem with faith is understanding it. Like everything else we have, it can grow, or diminish. Though faith seems to grow with application, it isn't a muscle that grows DUE to flexing - a mistaken belief held by many, not just fundamentalists. Faith's seeming growth through application actually takes place due to consideration/reflection of past actions and consequences (the use of critical and analytical thinking)... NOT to the application itself - hence its direct link to human logic and intelligence.

Here is where fundamentalists part ways with reality. Faith grows with doubt. Only when you question, when you ask 'why', can your faith truly develop as the answer becomes apparent. The answer may take years, decades... but that is part of your journey. Sometimes, a negative answer seems to diminish or eradicate what faith is there, but that is not so. To search is to find... to find is to continue looking. That is our nature.
Fundamentalists refute this. Faith to them is the opposite of doubt - to doubt is to fail, to fall... To be totally adamant allows presumption to rear its head in your life, accompanied by blindedness.
Faith is not the roadway... it's the light you use to see your way more clearly.

When you think about it are we just beliveing in a book because the book say's its true? for me this can't be all to it.This book must be free from all doubt,because if it is from god there cant be any mistakes in it and this book must not demand belief, it must invites you to belief by give in you evidence.

This is a mistake.
Firstly, the "book" is written by human beings, with all the frailties that accompany the species. What is believed about scripture is that it was inspired by God - not written by God.

Secondly, the question of "evidence" has been dealt with before, but I will mention it once more. Faith is a matter of belief - there is NO evidence. (There can be no evidence... if there were, then it wouldn't be faith, now would it?) It doesn't truly matter whether a story really happened, but it is the meaning of that story which contains the Truth that must be applied.
Take the story of Jonah, for example. A lovely Talmudic fable that teaches about God's forgiveness... Do you need to believe the story ACTUALLY happened to understand what is taught? Of course not. What you NEED is to believe in a God - then you can concern yourself about His forgiveness.

If a person needs a book to cause himself to believe in God, then I'm afraid such a person needs much more that just a book.

[AdamB]

was only a matter of time before adamb started the anti-us propaganda
fnantic much?

I have stated the facts as I know it, if you have evidence otherwise (that what I have posted is incorrect), then correct it (in the spirit of good discussion).

Persons want to make ridiculous stereotype comments and when answered appropriately, then it's "propaganda" and "frantic".

Point in fact - Crossdrilled comment about persons following religion and what they do in charity. I answered and this should be a good line of discussion but no one else did. Either they don't do charity, don't know what their religion recommends or don't care. I have made it clear that the muslim faith is not like this. That is why for Eid and on Fridays persons in need of all religions flock to the mosques asking for help.

[AdamB]

@Kasey,
I have been on this thread for almost a month and I don't recall any SIGNIFICANT point you brought to the discussion except to call MajTom and I babies and Bozos. Maybe that's significant to you or your intellectual capacity. Or maybe you're just a bandwagonist / muslim hater like possibly a couple of others here.

The truth offends but guess what THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!

AdamB please do not put my name and yours in the same sentence or on the same intellection of argument. I really do not want to have any sort of affiliation with you or your ideas. And anyone who was reading my posts would realize that I consider you a fanatic lol-cow. Quite amusing online but highly dangerous in real life if left to pursue your despot ideas openly. You have absolutely no idea how brainwashed you are. And that's just fine with me.

I also happened to agree with Kasey's criticism of my remarks by the way, and in the good nature and spirit of educated discussion I apologised accordingly to the parties involved and stuck to the guidelines.

I think if people started a Harry Potter religion now, it will catch on in a few hundred years as a firm religious belief. There's literature to back up everything and the non-existence of magic would just be the same label we put on "god" now.

Not my Pal,
WOW, sounding real mature now eh!

Someone IN A RELIGION DISCUSSION is a FANATIC LOL-COW for knowing his religion based on knowledge, this knowledge strenghtens one's faith. But sMASH must be more of a fanatic than me because he has been in these inter-religious discussions for what, years and he still holds on to ISLAM.

I have stated the positions of Islam on various issues. It does make sense to you so you jump on yuh high horse and all believers in religions are FANATIC NUT JOBS! That's real "good nature and spirit of educated discussion".

What despot ideas? You must be afraid of everyone because the majority of persons follow a religion. Or yuh fraid ah call up Abu bakr men? Ah have contacts yuh know!

Everyone's brainwashed, that's a fact, even you...the "Sheldon Cooper of TriniTuner"?

Fanatic nut job out.

[AdamB]

this ched reaffirmed my faith in His Noodleyness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster

MG,
Can you expand on this concept of His Noodleyness? Why do you describe him as "FLYING"? Where does he fly?

Why is your subconscious mind telling you that your concept of GOD embedded somewhere in your brain (even though you don't believe) is "flying", in the sky, or above?

[AdamB]

@dspike , You are the one throwing the hollow remarks. Notice I have stopped with the remarks and just posting the Islamic viewpoints. But it seems like you need to have someone with whom to fight.

Congratulations on learning to stick to what you know. My concern was the erroneous comments you had made about a religion you clearly know little about. My remarks are neither hollow nor aggressive. If you cannot tell the difference between someone correcting mistakes you make and someone wishing to fight, then there is little I can do about that.

I have been ignoring you because you are not presenting your evidences as requested.

I have already made it clear where you can find the information you seek, and I have also made it clear that all you are interested in is getting preset targets.

You said "I have said QUITE CLEARLY that each of us has to find his path." But you all said that Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me". Seems like a contradiction but that's YOUR logic.

Yes, it does SEEM like a contradiction - but that doesn't mean it IS. I have already explained this point before, but as you refuse to look at what went before you set foot here, let me post it once more:

One of the most important statements of Jesus is "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one can come to the Father except through me."
Christians hold onto this statement like a banner at a football match, waving it in the face of non-Christians ("we win! we win! we win!") when it actually means something far, far different, far more all-encompassing than the seemingly literal meaning of in-the-name-of Jesus-I-going-heaven stuff (taking scripture literally ALWAYS is a path of head-butting walls and stump-toe... )
Be rational. Jesus ain't no road... and literally going through someone isn't particularly pleasant... so obviously, Jesus was referring to following his teachings about himself - the path he laid out for us, goes to the Father. When we try to look at who Jesus is, he keeps showing us a concept, that of love. "He who loves me, obeys my commandments", "Love one another...", "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me" and so forth.
Therefore, the path to God is through love. Doesn't matter what you call it, where you worship, (if you perform 'communal worship'), what name you call him by...

The point of our existence here may very well be to learn to care for one another... one big, ant farm experiment to prove that love is supreme...
...to pick ourselves up from the mistakes that we make, to heal, to forgive... and to continue, striving in this reality to make the choices that we will be rewarded for in the next, and make this place a better place to live in, despite the turmoil, the earthquakes, the idiots...

Where will non-christians go after the day of judgement ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY?

IF you read the quote above, you will find that their reward is the same as everyone else. One goes to what one strives for, be it love or self.

You say USE LOGIC but Red fraction say DON'T USE LOGIC to understand the Bible.

Clearly you have just discovered that not everyone agrees on certain concepts. Hopefully, this knowledge will cause you to develop the virtue of Tolerance.

Spikey,
Ah working on the tolerance.

I just want to say that you have your view and I don't know if that is the general view of mainstream Christianity. When it comes to evidence to back up what you are saying, the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, everyone following the Bible will interpret in their own way and that can easily happen because of the "parables" business.

However, I do know Islam and we hold on to knowledge from our prophet and his Companions. We don't dilute from there and say like you that "religious thinking matures", no not at all. That's our religion and we hold firm to that.

With respect to GOD and worship, again Islam directly opposes your view. We strictly define GOD as He has informed us about Himself. Everything concerning worship is prohibited except for what has a proof / is legislated.

So, because your views oppose ours, don't assume that we are making mistakes or primitive or whatever criticism that you can conjure up.

Respect our views and our right to have them. That's true tolerance. Agree?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

this ched reaffirmed my faith in His Noodleyness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster

MG,
Can you expand on this concept of His Noodleyness? Why do you describe him as "FLYING"? Where does he fly?

Why is your subconscious mind telling you that your concept of GOD embedded somewhere in your brain (even though you don't believe) is "flying", in the sky, or above?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

it is not meant to be an actual belief, it is a parody.

Pastafarians who pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster often say "hey, you believe in your imaginary guy and we will believe in ours"

[MG Man]

this ched reaffirmed my faith in His Noodleyness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster

MG,
Can you expand on this concept of His Noodleyness? Why do you describe him as "FLYING"? Where does he fly?

Why is your subconscious mind telling you that your concept of GOD embedded somewhere in your brain (even though you don't believe) is "flying", in the sky, or above?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

it is not meant to be an actual belief, it is a parody.

Pastafarians who pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster often say "hey, you believe in your imaginary guy and we will believe in ours"

Hi Noodleyness flies because he lives in the sky....duuuuuuuuh...........u can't drive a car in space.........simple common sense, AdamB
When you too are touched by His noodley appendage, you will understand

[AdamB]

this ched reaffirmed my faith in His Noodleyness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster

MG,
Can you expand on this concept of His Noodleyness? Why do you describe him as "FLYING"? Where does he fly?

Why is your subconscious mind telling you that your concept of GOD embedded somewhere in your brain (even though you don't believe) is "flying", in the sky, or above?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

it is not meant to be an actual belief, it is a parody.

Pastafarians who pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster often say "hey, you believe in your imaginary guy and we will believe in ours"

Hi Noodleyness flies because he lives in the sky....duuuuuuuuh...........u can't drive a car in space.........simple common sense, AdamB
When you too are touched by His noodley appendage, you will understand

Why I ask is because one of the proofs used for the existence of GOD is that it is the natural disposition that everyone knows that GOD is above everything or in the sky or the heavens.
You said he lives "in the sky" which is above and in accordance with the natural belief or knowledge. If you ask a 3-5 yr old child, "where is GOD?", they will tell you the same thing (above), it's naturally ingrained in us.

Why doesn't he live "everywhere"? That is a misguided belief among some followers of religion. But when ppl raise their hands to pray to GOD, they naturally hold it up and face themselves, their body and face, UP.

Jesus said, "Our Father thou art in heaven".

We call this the Transcendence of GOD above the Creation.

The proof of the ‘aql (intellect), has two angles to it:

1. The ‘uluw / Transcendence is an attribute of perfection and therefore being as such necessitates that it is an affirmed attribute of Allaah/GOD because Allaah/GOD is qualified with the attributes of perfection from every angle.

2. For the sake of argument, if we say that, “Allaah/GOD is either above the world or under it or on its right or left,” then which of these descriptions denote perfection? The answer is, “Allaah/GOD is above the world,” because if he is “under it” then He would be less perfect than the created! And if He is in the same place as the created, then Allaah would be equal to creation in perfection. Thus it is necessitated that Allaah is above everything.

[MG Man]

[quote="AdamB"] If you ask a 3-5 yr old child, "where is GOD?", they will tell you the same thing (above), [b]it's naturally ingrained in us[/b
no it's not, buddy........a 3-5 year old only has an idea of god because it is taught to him / her by someone
But guess what.............the human mind's natural tendency to create a deity is actually a result of evolution.........research it, or better yet, read the relevant chapter from Dawkins' book, The God Delusion

[16 cycles]

The answer is, “Allaah/GOD is above the world,” because if he is “under it” then He would be less perfect than the created! And if He is in the same place as the created, then Allaah would be equal to creation in perfection. Thus it is necessitated that Allaah is above everything.

is GOD omni-present?

[maj. tom]

^there is no up or down in space. or on earth for that argument. just the centripetal/centrifugal forces exerted by matter in motion (not gravitational forces, which are the weakest force in nature).

so what you mean "god" is above the earth and not under it? under the earth? you mean under the mantle? above the earth? you mean the International Space Station?

[MG Man]

maj.tom it just again proves how human-centric this whole idea of god is

[Chimera]

this ched reaffirmed my faith in His Noodleyness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster

MG,
Can you expand on this concept of His Noodleyness? Why do you describe him as "FLYING"? Where does he fly?

Why is your subconscious mind telling you that your concept of GOD embedded somewhere in your brain (even though you don't believe) is "flying", in the sky, or above?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

it is not meant to be an actual belief, it is a parody.

Pastafarians who pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster often say "hey, you believe in your imaginary guy and we will believe in ours"

wtf, just now yuh guh tell we it doh have a santa clause or tooth fairy.

[AdamB]

It's a feeling of ABOVE, above EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS!!

[Sky]

It's a feeling of ABOVE, above EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS!!

Oh, you mean he's not LITERALLY above like the bible says?
What a shocker. Something figurative from the bible was taken literally.