Heaven, Hell and the after-life...

[trini mk5]

megadoc1, Why allyuh so-called "children of god" always sound the same way...PROGRAMMED. I all for GOD but i want to believe in"him" how I WANT TO BELIEVE IN "him" NOT based on a book that was written by man...and i doh mean to sound like i attacking yuh but is just something i noticed with ALL so called CHRISTIAN'S. Free thinking was one of Gods greatest and worst gifts...

[Ignorant Ignis]

Allyuh doh learn? Megadoc has no understanding or compassion for any other way but his.

'His' god is a jealous and maniacal one that says its my way or the highway. According to Megadoc if ur a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, or Baptist, ur screwed, Since his god alone can dictate, forgive and all that rah rah....'Intelligent' conversation with analysis and comparison is not something you'll find here with him. Only condemnation and small church syndrome in yuh waist.

all thats well and good ......... but where does have to go to get yuh virgins exchange when yuh reach heaven ..... i find nobody answering meh

where yuh receipt???

^^^^badest or virgin ?

[megadoc1]

@megadoc
Believing in something isn't that easy you know. If you told me that Jesus is the sovereign Lord and someone else said that Shooter_boy_J was the sovereign Lord then why should I believe you? Circular logic need not apply. Your response will probably be:
Jesus is the sovereign Lord because it is written in a holy book.
Then i would respond:
What if another guy told me that shooter_boy_J was declared sovereign Lord in another book just as holy as yours?
Then your logically fallacious response:
My book is true.
My response:
Why?
A clear degradation in the argument would subsequently arise:
Your response can only be:
Because it is.

Which leads me to my first point where i said circular knowledge need not apply. I will not accept the fallacy of 'something is only true because it is.'

If you can explain to me in a form that doesn't involve falling in to the trap of becoming fallacious or involving circular logic then restate.. i would love to see things your way, makes life seem more worthwhile, but have you considered that that is all religion is? An invention of the human mind to give humans a little hope? But anyway I won't try to turn anyone from their religion, they are the more content ones.

I will never doubt the existence of God. To me he is an absolute infinity, the only one of its kind (hence i don't believe in an infinite universe). But about the God portrayed in religion.. i can't understand how man with finite intelligence, can even attempt to understand the infinite mind of God. You won't be able to. Your chances of understanding ANYTHING whatsoever will thus tend to zero (if you, as I, believe in an all-powerful (as mathematicians say absolutely infinite)) God.

I hear yuh
but I believe in Jesus Christ and what he says
and does what he wants me to do,I hold the bible as truth and I
believe every word in it so I will only speak of him
it is up to you to believe or not
he never instructed me to give evidence,all he ask is that I preach the good news about him and those who believe shall be saved
but the good news is contained in the bible and in my heart so I guess we will be going around in circles, if we want that is but here are two ways to break the cycle
you believe
or
you don't believe
its your will

[megadoc1]

megadoc1, Why allyuh so-called "children of god" always sound the same way...PROGRAMMED. I all for GOD but i want to believe in"him" how I WANT TO BELIEVE IN "him" NOT based on a book that was written by man...and i doh mean to sound like i attacking yuh but is just something i noticed with ALL so called CHRISTIAN'S. Free thinking was one of Gods greatest and worst gifts...

I once used this as an excuse not to serve GOD
so I beg you don't let a fool like me be your excuse for not serving GOD

[megadoc1]

Allyuh doh learn? Megadoc has no understanding or compassion for any other way but his.

'His' god is a jealous and maniacal one that says its my way or the highway. According to Megadoc if ur a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, or Baptist, ur screwed, Since his god alone can dictate, forgive and all that rah rah....'Intelligent' conversation with analysis and comparison is not something you'll find here with him. Only condemnation and small church syndrome in yuh waist.

I love your passion man

[d spike]

he never instructed me to give evidence,all he ask is that I preach the good news

So much for being called to witness...

Megadoc1, why don't you try to answer the OP's questions? Give it a shot, nah...

[kiamotors]

Heaven and Hell is right here on earth, you don't have to die to experience either...

[d spike]

Heaven and Hell is right here on earth, you don't have to die to experience either...

I see you have met all of my ex-wives...

[kiamotors]

^men!

[toyo682]

So it seems that in this tread men are more concern about reason than facts. I think it is more important that the facts are presented '

OK, I admit that the whole because the Bible says bit can be insulting to man, it can insult the intellect. Even in the Bible God was ready to reason so reason we shall.

Firstly any given religion can only be understood in light of its beliefs and norms, which most times are based on what ever holy book governs said religion. My beliefs, and yours are based on something that you deem to reasonable, or what you find to be factual. Bottom line is belief in anything must have a base, it does not exist in a vacuum.

I am a Christian, therefore my beliefs are based on the Bible which I have come to deem as reasonable grounds to believe what I believe. It is the foundation of my belief. Or is it more reasonable to be a Christian and base my belief in Christ ( which is essentially what being a Christian is) on what the Koran or any other religion's holy book says. Of course not. I am not saying that these books don't have moral teachings. But that was what the whole debate with d spike was about. I see in scripture (the Bible) being a Christian, that it is not but works but grace. I only drop those to scripture post to answer this Christian to Christian (At least I believe it was) conflict to show why I believe it is grace that leads to good works not the other way around.

Bottom line is this, I am a Christian, when ask is there a God I answer from a Christian point of view, which is the same for question on Heaven, Hell or the afterlife. So when ask is there a heaven my answer is yes. The answer yes does not help the question along, now I need to explain, why I believe in heaven. Well guess what this belief is based in my Christian world view, many world view is governed by my belief in the Bible. So to answer the question is there a heaven, yes, I believe so because it believe what the Bible tell me, and this is where it is found.

So the person asking the question receives a proper, I not only say what I believe but show why I believe it, and where the reference for my beliefs come from. Now the person asking the question can consider these things and come to a rational decision, on whether, the reference from which I gather my beliefs gives them a reasonable base to believe what I believe. Hence my original post. I understand this is an open forum and open to others of different beliefs. Since this a discussion geared obviously towards finding truth of some form, the facts of why you believe what you believe should be presented, otherwise you insult my intellect. If you say you believe in Santa clause, the from where do you reference your beliefs from is it experience, a book, did you see mama kissing him, how did you come to this belief. This is what I refer to when I ask for the facts, there is a reason for why you believe what you believe and I want to know why, unless you are afraid to have to have your belief out there where it can possibly be cross examined or you can't justify it.

"The first to present his case seems right,
till another comes forward and questions him"

reference you say (guess which book I got that proverb from).

[toyo682]

More reasoning

If I believe there is no God, heaven and hell and as such live my life according to this belief. But then I die and only to find out there is a God, who had left specific guidelines for a relationship with him, of which I choose to not believe, although it was heard, what excuse shall I use then. Do I win or lose?

If i believe there is a God, who has left specific instructions to gain all that he has in store for me and as such I live my life to such a conviction. Only to find out after I die there was no god, no afterlife, no eternal gain as I thought I would receive and there is nothing but non existence. do I win or lose?


If I believe a God that there are many paths and beliefs too, and the main way to reach him is good works, but die to find there is a specific God with specific rules. Do I win or lose?

If I believe in a specific God, with a specific path too, which leads me to good works, and I die to find a God who does not care which way you come to him, once you were good. Then do I win or lose?


what does your reason tell you?

[toyo682]

Still more reasoning,

There is one God who says to he loves you but you need to work as hard as you can to reach him, does not give you any specific instructions, but changes his mind ever so often and capriciously reveals another path, non of which give a definite ending, only a maybe. Hopefully you have done enough to enter into heaven with him. If not do over? Go directly to Go and the race begins again.

Then there is one God that says he is the only one, He says he loves you enough to he does not leave it up to you to get to him, but rather, paves a specific way, paid for by God himself and all that is require is that you believe. If said belief is practice you are allow into heaven with him when you die. No do overs etc, there is a sure ending to this. all that it cost you is your belief.

Which God will you choose?

what does your reason tell you.

[toyo682]

trini mk5
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:38 am Post subject:
megadoc1, Why allyuh so-called "children of god" always sound the same way...PROGRAMMED. [b]I all for GOD but i want to believe in"him" how I WANT TO BELIEVE IN "him[/b]" NOT based on a book that was written by man...and i doh mean to sound like i attacking yuh but is just something i noticed with ALL so called CHRISTIAN'S. Free thinking was one of Gods greatest and worst gifts...

Many are all for God, but only a god as they want him to be. Many have a loving god, condemning God, etc a God after there own heart.

So in other words god's attributes is convenient for them. Well next time you come on tuner to post how you or love one or friend just get robbed, raped, kill, abused etc save it. Have you ever considered that the bandit, rapist, murder may have a god who is so loving that no matter what he does, it is okay. So as the bandit is robbing you just think in your mind that it is all okay with his god, after all his conviction comes from a god in who he believes how he wants to believe in him.

Secondly, if the God of Christianity a god of convenience why is some of his rules so hard to follow. Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust you commit adultery in your heart which is clearly a sin before him. Did he not understand that I am a man and a half naked or good looking woman can bring some not so nice thoughts in my head?

If he was a God of convenience, then it would be okay to look at least, because God knows, looking is much easier than not look especially for us hot blooded trinis.

An that is only one of the many not so easier, working out your salvation with fear and trembling beliefs.

Oh, by the way how does a god created by you save you? It might be easier to for you to save him than it is for him to save you.

Just my reason? what do you think.

[toyo682]

zcarz

@megadoc
Believing in something isn't that easy you know. If you told me that Jesus is the sovereign Lord and someone else said that Shooter_boy_J was the sovereign Lord then why should I believe you? Circular logic need not apply. Your response will probably be:
Jesus is the sovereign Lord because it is written in a holy book.
Then i would respond:
What if another guy told me that shooter_boy_J was declared sovereign Lord in another book just as holy as yours?
Then your logically fallacious response:
My book is true, because I have tested what is written in it. I heard about a God who loves me and died for me, so I decided to (go to church, read the Bible, get on my knees and ask him to show me sign if he was real. That day I experience something that is hard to explain, as I ask Jesus into my heart, a peace came over me, it was a peace that is hard to described. As Jesus came in as he promise in his word he would do, I had no desire, to do the things I did before. The desire to get drunk to get rid of my troubles was now replace with a peace that my troubles would pass away. The cigs, was no more necessary because I no longer need to draw peace from it.

Then there was the sickness that I was on medicine for that the doctors said I would have to live with for the rest of my life. I read one day as I continued to seek out God that he promise to be my healer. So I decided to test this. I prayed for healing. Strange, the next time I went to the doctor, he looked at me puzzled. The sickness was not there any more, I would no longer need medication all my life.

Then I experienced......
and I experienced....
and I tested God in this....and he delivered



My response:

Why?

my response: That is a stupid question isn't it, you should ask how can I experience this to. [/b]

[d spike]

So it seems that in this tread men are more concern about reason than facts. I think it is more important that the facts are presented
Tread lightly, my son. While this whole post is full of good points, you started with a badly biased statement. You use 'facts' to refer to items you believe to be true. A 'fact', however is something that IS true (can be proven, you know?). I am not disputing your beliefs. For you to air them, was the OP's wish. However, faith is based on believing in something that can't be proven... so to rephrase that first statement of yours, one would say that men are more concerned with reason than with your personal religious beliefs. Do you blame them? Reason is what makes us who we are (this is a moot point, considering the dotish people one meets now on a daily basis )... While I agree that you should present your beliefs - this was the OP's idea - just remember your audience. Apologetics teaches you how to put forward your ideas without relying on scripture (which would be considered null anyway by a non-christian audience) and to rely on that which all men respect: logic. After all, christianity is logical - as are many religions. They only folk who disagree with this are those who either don't really understand what they believe, and have egos too big to accept that many others understand better than they do; and those who are fundamentalists. (But you should know all this already... I don't understand how someone with the background you claim to have, could make these remarks you do. Perhaps a 'refresher' course should be among your plans before you take up the mantle you referred to earlier.

OK, I admit that the whole because the Bible says bit can be insulting to man, it can insult the intellect.
How can scripture be insulting? This one escapes me.

Even in the Bible God was ready to reason so reason we shall.
From here on in, you made good.

Firstly any given religion can only be understood in light of its beliefs and norms, which most times are based on what ever holy book governs said religion. My beliefs, and yours are based on something that you deem to reasonable, or what you find to be factual. Bottom line is belief in anything must have a base, it does not exist in a vacuum.

I am a Christian, therefore my beliefs are based on the Bible which I have come to deem as reasonable grounds to believe what I believe. It is the foundation of my belief. Or is it more reasonable to be a Christian and base my belief in Christ ( which is essentially what being a Christian is) on what the Koran or any other religion's holy book says. Of course not. I am not saying that these books don't have moral teachings.
Quite right. Just remember your audience, and never alienate them.

[d spike]

Toyo682, try not to follow this sort of thinking:

[toyo682]

d spike it is clear English is hard to understand. My overall conclusion of may faith as stated in much of my post, comes from testing the Bible against my experiences, comparison and reason. I don't believe because it says so in the Bible. any ways care to answer any of the questions that I have asked or you are going to stick with I am not going to tell you. I seems that your conclusion is that there are many ways because you think so, no more ignorant than the Bible says so... you have lots of opinions so where do you reference from? Oh let me guess your are not going to say! this Christian life is a hard life to walk if one is to stay pure, so if there is a easier way to heaven show some proof of it, at least state some of your experiences that lead to such a belief.

[d spike]

good grief, sorry lad. The posting of the 'napkin' was not in response to anything you said, but a gentle reminder to someone else (who knows himself quite well) who follows that 'circular' type of thinking. No offense was meant to you, but this was the simplest way I could bring it up.
If you look closely at my response to your previous post, you would see quite clearly how I consider the material provided by you so far.

[toyo682]

Oh and faith is not believing something that cannot proven, but being able to believe until it is proven true. Many do it every day, every day you exercise faith when you sit on a chair. You sit on it because you have faith it will hold you up, but you can't know for sure until you sit on it right. Is your faith that the chair can hold you not proven? You quote earlier faith without works is dead, so by your works you prove your faith in other words, so if faith can't be proven what are you working to? According to your belief of this the deeds are done so that your faith in the savior will be accomplished, is not the thing you are having faith in is salvation exist, so your salvation will not be proven? then your works may be in vain.

[d spike]

According to your belief of this the deeds are done so that your faith in the savior will be accomplished

This isn't what I believe. Please don't copy the mistake of certain other folks and assume you 'know' what I believe. Stick to what you believe.

d spike it is clear English is hard to understand.
English is not hard to understand. Try and use it properly.

My overall conclusion of may faith as stated in much of my post, comes from testing the Bible against my experiences, comparison and reason.
Quite right, and so it should be. However, it still remains but your opinion, not fact.

I don't believe because it says so in the Bible. any ways care to answer any of the questions that I have asked or you are going to stick with I am not going to tell you. I seems that your conclusion is that there are many ways because you think so, no more ignorant than the Bible says so... you have lots of opinions so where do you reference from? Oh let me guess your are not going to say!
First of all (my apologies to those who have heard me say this time and again) my beliefs are not for public consumption. I fail completely to see what good could possibly be achieved by airing my religious beliefs here. (Privately, yes, by all means - I have always enjoyed a thought-provoking discussion, but not here. Such a discussion could only end up being provoking! ) As I have stated before, the best that could happen is others realize that I have a good understanding of what I believe (I don't need to hear this) and the worst is I waste my time (which I value). I have hinted very heavily to you that rationale thinking alone makes sense on a forum such as this. However, everyone has the right to state their beliefs without being chastised or discriminated against... so those who wish to do so, most certainly should.

this Christian life is a hard life to walk if one is to stay pure, so if there is a easier way to heaven show some proof of it, at least state some of your experiences that lead to such a belief.
No, son, it doesn't work that way - re-read my statement above if you must. We each find our own way back to God. ('You bloom where you are planted' is a very apt idiom.)

[/b]

[toyo682]

d spike accept my apology I truly did misunderstand where you were coming from. when you challenged my grace concept, and seem to fight so hard for works leading to god I mistakenly though you were arguing from a different christian perspective. I was wrong for me to assume that your beliefs in deeds leads you to being saved. I have re-read some of your earlier post in this tread, so now I realize what is really taking place. I now understand why you could not explain what the other 16 verse I showed you meant or fit in. There are some that have latched on to the similarities in all religions to show that we are all on the some journey to the same God but different paths. However there are differences that separate which must be considered as well.

No, son, it doesn't work that way - re-read my statement above if you must. We each find our own way back to God. ('You bloom where you are planted' is a very apt idiom.)

I guess this is where we separate in our beliefs. I wish you luck in finding your way back to god, hope at the end of life's journey you and those who hold this belief do make it. I can say this I am glad that the God that I serve has found me. thank God he has shown me this different way.

[megadoc1]

he never instructed me to give evidence,all he ask is that I preach the good news

So much for being called to witness...

Megadoc1, why don't you try to answer the OP's questions? Give it a shot, nah...

ok sir let me try ah ting

So I was having a discussion the other day with some ppl about religion and heaven etc., coming out of that I had a few unanswered questions. So I'm asking the religious folks in here to educate me if they have answers on any of these.

1. Where do babies go when they die?
dont worry about where babies go for my God is the creator and sovereign lord
he decides that and no one questions him.
but ask yourself where would you go when you die , you have some control there(aka your will)

2. If heaven, then do they age in heaven, or do we all remain the same age in heaven that we were when we died?
age is not of heaven if you make it there (I pray you do what it takes to get there) you just live forever

3. I understand Hindu's believe in reincarnation, how does this work?
n/a

4. Are animals allowed in heaven?
beats me (go to answer no1)

5. The 72 virgins concept. Is this true? If so, seems to be a good thing for the man. What does the woman get out of it? And for married muslims, when the man die, does he and his wife separate in heaven, considering she most likely is no longer a virgin? (if so what becomes of her)
lol nice question my lord jesus said it here
Mat 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Mat 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mat 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
Mat 22:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
Mat 22:27 And last of all the woman died also.
Mat 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
there will be no sex in heaven


6. For believers of heaven, is there 1 heaven? or 1 for each religion?
If there is only 1, does jesus, allah (pbuh), and whoever else live side by side as multiple gods in heaven?
I believe that there is one heaven and only Allah (Arabic for GOD)the father
and Jesus the son and the angels and his servants live there

7. I know some christians believe, if you don't worship Jesus, you're not getting into heaven. What about the tribes in the amazon, or a baby who dies at birth, who never had the privilege about knowing about Jesus. What happens to them?
again go to no1 answer then return here

worshiping Jesus does not get you to heaven it is not about works or what you do , getting to heaven is done by believing that he died for your sins
and for you to to have life ,when you repent of your sins and turn to Jesus
you will worship him ,out of love for him

8. If you don't believe in heaven, or God... and you don't believe in hell where do you go?
hell whether you believe it or not

9. Can heaven exist without hell? If so, then is it possible when you die, the only place to go is heaven? If not, then Heaven needs hell to exist, hence, so does that mean believers, should be thankful that hell exists?
hell was created for Satan and his followers but unrepentant sinners and people who hate God ends up there
GOd desires all men to be saved but he cannot always have his way
because of mans free will

10. If hell needs to exist, for heaven to exist. Then we need "bad" people, or non-believers on earth, for believers to be-able to go to heaven.?
we are all bad in the sight of God but he always loved us that's why he
gave his only begotten son so whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life

Someone once raised the question, why did God put us on earth for such a short period of time. Imagine Most of us will spend 60-80yrs on earth, some babies spend a few seconds. Considering the length of time eternity in heaven is, 60-80 years or even in the case of the baby (a few seconds) is just a drop in the barrel when we consider the length of time which constitutes eternity. Are we really here for such a short time on earth ... to go to heaven and relax for the rest of time? (if so, sounds like a steal of a deal).
steal of a deal is correct this GOD I love put in place a way
for us and tell us what to do and how to do it
plus he helps us its like a test with multiple choice
a =life
or
b= death
and he (the creator) telling yuh chose life
but it have people (the creature) still choosing the wrong answer

NB: I am not trying to offend any religion here. If I did, please let me know, and I apologize in advance. I'm hoping those of you with more knowledge in the respective religions can help us clarify some of these questions.
[/list]

[zcarz]

^No WHAT in heaven??
lol.. anyway, you say we have free will.. but God's mind should be all knowing right? Then that should mean, before you are born, he would know if you were going to heaven or hell making your 'free will' only a perception. Do you agree?

[d spike]

lol.. anyway, you say we have free will.. but God's mind should be all knowing right? Then that should mean, before you are born, he would know if you were going to heaven or hell making your 'free will' only a perception. Do you agree?

The glorious concept of predestination. Many little churches clung to this as a tenet early in this century... an unfortunate example of what happens when there is a lack of logic in religion - think about it, if your fate is sealed (heaven/hell) then it doesn't matter what you do while you wait for the end to come, be it praying or wild carousing...
Luckily, there are far too many sci-fi TV shows/movies that explain the malleability of time for this concept to find root in the minds of the young 'uns today.

[toyo682]

^^^^^^^zcarz comment


Disagree, My knowledge of an event does not mean that I caused it to be so. If I know that you are going to kill some one does that mean I have ordain that you do so. I have two chooses after that knowledge help you to understand that it is not the way to go, or bring you to justice after the act is commit. This is what God has done, yes he knows who will reject him and who will accept him but that does not mean he has made that choice for them. He has however made the way of escape so that none shall perish,despite knowing many will reject him. those who reject his provision of escape will face his judgment.

Is such judgment not fair? if you tell your child (if you have) don't do something but they choose to disobey are they not punished by you. Freewill exist which gives us to choice to obey or disobey, love or not love, accept or reject God. The reason God is Judge, jury and executioner is that there is none above him, that is why he swore on himself in scripture because there was nothing still is nothing to swear by higher than him. Many fail to realize in essence what sin is, it is not only a rejection of God's ways but God himself. When you choose to disobey you are essentially saying to God, I am my own god and I will do it my way.

Further more freewill does exist because God created man for fellowship and relationship with him. Such was his relationship with Adam and Eve, and as such Christ has restored this relationship. If you kidnap a woman, and say to her love me or I will kill you, she may show all the signs of loving you but in her heart there will never be true love. That is why God has left us with this choice, so when we do love him it would be true love. Sorry so many Christian try to drive home the point of hell more than the love of God. If is not his desire that any should go there, that is why he made a way of escape. Now you have to make the choice yourself. Hell is a consequence of rejecting the love of God, but it is not his will for your life.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

This sounds like a good option to me.

[toyo682]

megadoc1, Although Allah does mean god, Allah and the God the Bible are two different people, be careful you don't deceive people in your enthusiasm to evangelize.

[megadoc1]

megadoc1, Although Allah does mean god, Allah and the God the Bible are two different people, be careful you don't deceive people in your enthusiasm to evangelize.

understood

[Chimera]

no sex in heaven?

how the hell that is heaven then?


Someone screwed up bigtime when they were planning this heaven/hell bs

[megadoc1]

^No WHAT in heaven??
lol.. anyway, you say we have free will.. but God's mind should be all knowing right? Then that should mean, before you are born, he would know if you were going to heaven or hell making your 'free will' only a perception. Do you agree?

free will is like this
there are two kingdoms that want to affect your life
1 the kingdom of heaven (all men are born disconnected from this one)
2 the kingdom of darkness
but they cannot affect your life unless you let them in
for example
you look at porn or do anything that is not of GOD,
you invite the kingdom of darkness in your life.

you seek the kingdom of heaven and his righteousness
and do the will of GOD,
you invite the kingdom of heaven in your life

[Chimera]

so what..if while in church...I look at porn on my phone..which kingdom i inviting there?



Or in the case of a priest molesting little boys....which kingdom he inviting there?