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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby sMASH » January 15th, 2019, 5:47 pm

https://www.rt.com/news/448884-brazil-b ... RoYClutNMk

rt wrote: Brazil’s Bolsonaro loosens gun laws in homicide-plagued nation
Published time: 15 Jan, 2019 17:25


Brazil’s new right-wing president has signed a decree that makes it easier for civilians to purchase firearms. Jair Bolsonaro believes it’s the answer to a rampant growth in violence.

Fighting violent crimes and loosening gun ownership laws to “guarantee self-defense” were some one of Bolsonaro’s key campaign promises. Brazil saw a record 63,800 homicides in 2017, the last year for which reliable statistics is available. About 43,000 of those were gun-related.
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Bolsonaro says Brazil may host US base, calls Trump 'most powerful man in the world' Bolsonaro says Brazil may host US base, calls Trump 'most powerful man in the world'

The promised gun law change came short of a reform for now, with the decree temporarily scrapping the obligation for Brazilians to prove an “effective need” to own a firearm when purchasing one. Introduced in 2003 by President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, the current strict gun ownership law also includes mandatory background checks, a 25-year age limit, being in employment and other requirements, which in practice Brazil has struggled to enforce. Bolsonaro, then a lawmaker, was among the vocal opponents of the law.

For the new Brazilian president, the decree allows congressional approval to be circumvented, but it’s said to be the first step to the promised liberal firearm ownership rules, favored by Bolsonaro’s supporters in gun and defense industries in Brazil.

Much like the NRA in the US, a country notorious for gun violence, he and his supporters argue that armed citizens would be able to fight back against armed gangs. Critics say giving more resources to the police would be a better option.


Known as a fervent gun supporter who often poses with finger guns, Bolsonaro has advised police to ‘shoot to kill’ when dealing with criminals and even promised to figuratively “machine gun” his opposition.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby zoom rader » January 15th, 2019, 5:51 pm

^^^ Not going to happen in Trini bro.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby RedVEVO » January 18th, 2019, 9:44 am

^^

Only when Trinidad becomes under military rule

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby timelapse » January 18th, 2019, 12:34 pm

RedVEVO wrote:^^

Arms ?

Trini really cannot organize since there is no co-operation in anything serious - maybe if some $$$ pass - YES

We never had an armed conflict like USA's Civil War etc.

A crazy man tried . He got no co-operation .

We gave his an amnesty just for trying .

Go figure .



Another crazy man seems to be trying to and has a loyal following on tv..I just sayin

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby RedVEVO » January 19th, 2019, 12:13 am

timelapse wrote:
RedVEVO wrote:^^

Arms ?

Trini really cannot organize since there is no co-operation in anything serious - maybe if some $$$ pass - YES

We never had an armed conflict like USA's Civil War etc.

A crazy man tried . He got no co-operation .

We gave his an amnesty just for trying .

Go figure .



Another crazy man seems to be trying to and has a loyal following on tv..I just sayin


:D

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby sMASH » March 15th, 2019, 1:50 pm

https://www.dailywire.com/news/44695/sh ... uVfmXkIKIw
98.9fm wrote:Shooters Fled Second Mosque Attack As Good Guy With A Gun Returned Fire, Report Says


By Ryan Saavedra
@realsaavedra
March 15, 2019


An attack on a New Zealand mosque was reportedly stopped on Friday when a good guy with a gun fired at the attacker[s] causing them to flee the scene, according to local media.

The terrorist attack left 49 dead and dozens injured with at least 30 of the deaths coming from the Masjid Al Noor mosque and at least 10 more deaths coming from the Linwood Masjid Mosque.

The lower number of deaths at the Linwood Masjid Mosque may in part be attributable to a good guy with a gun stopping the shooting. The New Zealand Herald reports:

A second shooting happened at a mosque in the Linwood area of the city.

One Friday prayer goer returned fire with a rifle or shotgun.

Witnesses said they heard multiple gunshots around 1.45pm.

A well known Muslim local chased the shooters and fired two shots at them as they sped off.

He was heard telling police officers he was firing in "self defence".

"They were in a silver Subaru," he told police.


"Authorities said they had four people in custody — three men and one woman — but later clarified that only three were believed to have been involved in the violence," The Washington Post reported. "One man in his late 20s, whom the authorities declined to name, was charged with murder and was expected to appear in court on Saturday morning. The suspects had not been on security watch lists, officials said."

The terrorist livestreamed the horrifying attack on social media, which left tech companies scrambling to remove the attack....

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby Dizzy28 » March 15th, 2019, 2:08 pm

NZ actually has some lax gun laws by developed country (excluding USA) standards

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-475 ... ow_twitter

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby sMASH » March 15th, 2019, 4:06 pm

IFFFF that gun toting worshiper story is true, (cause i not seeing it any where else) the results are self explanatory; no civilians with guns resulted in 41 deaths. but one civilian with a gun toll only resulted in 7.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby shogun » March 15th, 2019, 7:18 pm

^Not seeing anything corroborating that "good guy with a gun" story though?

Also, this made no sense, "A well known Muslim local chased the shooters and fired two shots at them as they sped off."

Hopefully it's not US pro-NRA, propaganda to help further their cause.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby 88sins » March 15th, 2019, 7:52 pm

i seriously doubt that the NRA has any involvement in that incident. and i don't doubt it, i kno there's plenty ppl that carry their weapon literally everywhere unless they are prohibited from doing so. church, restaurant, movies, school, work, everywhere, because they fully understand the principle of it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

sorry for the poor souls now deceased. just goes to show, nobody's safe anywhere.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby shogun » March 15th, 2019, 8:11 pm

88sins wrote:i seriously doubt that the NRA has any involvement in that incident. and i don't doubt it,



No, not that they had any involvement in the incident itself, but that stories of "good guys with guns" being on the scene and thwarting the attack would be promoted/floated without fully knowing the facts of the case, to help their narratives that more guns equal safety. I'm still looking for any reports of a second "good guy" shooter on the scene. Nothing yet.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby sMASH » March 15th, 2019, 8:55 pm

shogun wrote:^Not seeing anything corroborating that "good guy with a gun" story though?

Also, this made no sense, "A well known Muslim local chased the shooters and fired two shots at them as they sped off."

Hopefully it's not US pro-NRA, propaganda to help further their cause.


found another article. not as gun toting as it was in the previous article, but it still demonstrates that a legal fire arm holder could have made a difference

https://www.theepochtimes.com/hero-tack ... 1UXmCiQpTw



‘Hero’ Tackled Christchurch Mosque Shooter and Grabbed His Gun
By Tom Ozimek
March 15, 2019 Updated: March 15, 2019
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A survivor of the shooting at one of the mosques in the New Zealand city of Christchurch on March 15 has described how his friend risked his life to tackle the gunman and wrestle away his weapon.

Syed Mazharuddin told the New Zealand Herald he witnessed the attack.

“There was screaming around and I tried to take cover,” he said.

Mazharuddin told the Herald that barely had he managed to take cover when the gunman made his way through the main entrance door of the Linwood mosque.

The mosque in the neighborhood of Linwood was the second location targeted by the gunman in Friday’s mass shooting spree that left at least 49 dead.
New-Zealand-Mass-shooting
Emergency services personnel push stretchers carrying a person into a hospital, after reports that several shots had been fired, in central Christchurch, New Zealand on March 15, 2019. (TVNZ via Reuters TV)
‘He Just Started Shooting at Them’

Mazharuddin said as soon as the gunman entered the mosque, he started firing wildly.

“Just around the entrance door there were elderly people sitting there praying and he just started shooting at them.”

He said at one point one of his acquaintances tried to tackle the shooter, who was dressed in body armor.

“The young guy who usually takes care of the mosque … he saw an opportunity and pounced on [the gunman] and took his gun,” Mazharuddin said.

“The hero tried to chase and he couldn’t find the trigger in the gun … he ran behind him but there were people waiting for him in the car and he fled.”
law enforcement confronts citizen
A member of the AOS (Armed Offenders Squad) stands ready following a shooting at the Al Noor mosque in Christchurch, New Zealand, on March 15, 2019. (Reuters/SNPA/Martin Hunter)
Armed Congregant Fired on Gunman

An armed congregant chased after and fired twice at the gunman, the New Zealand Herald reported.

The man—identified only as a well-known area resident and a Muslim—left the scene of the Linwood mosque when gunfire broke out before returning with a firearm to engage the gunman.

He reportedly fired two rounds at the shooter as he sped off in a getaway vehicle.

“They were in a silver Subaru,” the man told police.

The armed congregation member reportedly told the authorities he was firing in “self defense.”


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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby shogun » March 15th, 2019, 9:45 pm

A little flakiness happening with the reporting, but it seems like (from this article) that the unarmed guy that grabbed the shooter's gun, was the one that made the shooter flee? By the way, this hero's actions are the last option to be considered in a situation like this, if you are unarmed.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby sMASH » March 15th, 2019, 10:15 pm

Two separate persons. The Muslim with the gun, went away when he heard the initial gunshots, collected a gun and returned in time to get two shots at the terrorist that was already fleeing,on foot/in car .

Imagine if he was already there on site with his firearm... didn't have to leave, get it, then return

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby 88sins » March 15th, 2019, 10:18 pm

might be the last resort but still a better option than waiting for an evil ahole to deposit lead pills in one's cranium

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby shogun » March 15th, 2019, 10:39 pm

sMASH wrote:Two separate persons. The Muslim with the gun, went away when he heard the initial gunshots, collected a gun and returned in time to get two shots at the terrorist that was already fleeing,on foot/in car .

Imagine if he was already there on site with his firearm... didn't have to leave, get it, then return


Yeah, read that the other guy left to collect his gun then returned to the mosque, but the first article you posted claimed "An attack on a New Zealand mosque was reportedly stopped on Friday when a good guy with a gun fired at the attacker[s] causing them to flee the scene, according to local media."

Then there was this
sMASH wrote:no civilians with guns resulted in 41 deaths. but one civilian with a gun toll only resulted in 7.


Which you now know because of the guy that decided to grab the shooters gun, isn't true. And now, you're asking everyone reading to "imagine" when there are so many variables to consider. First being that the shooter was armed with two assault rifles and had two shotguns and a lever-action firearm in his vehicle.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby shogun » March 15th, 2019, 10:41 pm

88sins wrote:might be the last resort but still a better option than waiting for an evil ahole to deposit lead pills in one's cranium


Might agree yes. It didn't look like anyone had many other options in this particular situation.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby Redman » March 16th, 2019, 3:30 pm

The NRA doesn't need this NZ issue to bolster the argument of an armed, AND PREPARED person being able to help... There are sufficient examples in the US....

This is 2019.
ALL places of worship should have had discussions and made some pre emptive and reactive plan for this type of incident.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby 88sins » March 16th, 2019, 8:06 pm

problem with religious perspectives
it nearly impossible to preach peace, love, and compassion and get the peons to follow blindly when you have personnel dressed in tactical gear with body armor with ar15's and glocks

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby sMASH » March 16th, 2019, 9:29 pm


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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby shogun » March 16th, 2019, 10:19 pm

Redman wrote:The NRA doesn't need this NZ issue to bolster the argument of an armed, AND PREPARED person being able to help... There are sufficient examples in the US....


Really? Is it just a coincidence then that a well known paid activist for the NRA in the US, would put out a factually inaccurate story about "Shooters Fled Second Mosque Attack As Good Guy With A Gun Returned Fire" moments after the attack, without fully knowing the facts?

Just go do the most BASIC research on the writer of that article, see what you find? That dude has been floating BS pro-NRA stories for a while. In fact I'd say it's basically a major part of his career at this point. But yeah, the NRA is totally above using one of the most horrific stories of gun violence being covered world wide, to help push it's narrative. Yeah, I believe that.

Redman wrote:This is 2019.
ALL places of worship should have had discussions and made some pre emptive and reactive plan for this type of incident.


And what difference would any "preemptive/reactive" plan make, when New Zealand's stricter gun laws (stricter than the US) have already made it pretty hard for an assailant to acquire and legally access multiple assault weapons, shotguns and lever-action weapons? Think it's any coincidence that the shooter is parroting the same Pro-White Nationalist, pro gun, pro-Trump rhetoric as the other gun-loving right wingers? Can't WAIT to hear this.

This is 2019 bro, some countries are still trying to stay clear of a backward society where every church and school needs to have an armed arsenal nearby to keep away the crazies. Especially if their violent gun crime numbers are usually low to non-existent? Pay attention nuh?
Last edited by shogun on March 16th, 2019, 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby Redman » March 16th, 2019, 10:21 pm

88sins wrote:problem with religious perspectives
it nearly impossible to preach peace, love, and compassion and get the peons to follow blindly when you have personnel dressed in tactical gear with body armor with ar15's and glocks



Rather extreme imagery.

Alert guards outside co ordinated with an emergency lock down plan and radios would have done quite a bit in this instance.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby Redman » March 17th, 2019, 6:20 am

@shogun....
My point was that the benefit of having armed citizens who are able and willing to respond to a mass shooting attempt...is already proven in the US.

I could care less who wrote the article,and whether he is an activist or not...there is a ton of fake news out there...you should know that before you get worked up.


As I posted above before you edited your last post...its 2019 and as such we need to adapt to the world as it is.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby rspann » March 17th, 2019, 7:52 am

Redman wrote:
88sins wrote:problem with religious perspectives
it nearly impossible to preach peace, love, and compassion and get the peons to follow blindly when you have personnel dressed in tactical gear with body armor with ar15's and glocks



Rather extreme imagery.

Alert guards outside co ordinated with an emergency lock down plan and radios would have done quite a bit in this instance.


I know someone who attends church with his firearm safely tucked away in his waist.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby Redman » March 17th, 2019, 9:20 am

rspann wrote:
Redman wrote:
88sins wrote:problem with religious perspectives
it nearly impossible to preach peace, love, and compassion and get the peons to follow blindly when you have personnel dressed in tactical gear with body armor with ar15's and glocks



Rather extreme imagery.

Alert guards outside co ordinated with an emergency lock down plan and radios would have done quite a bit in this instance.


I know someone who attends church with his firearm safely tucked away in his waist.


Any pragmatic person will do so.
Psalm 144-1.

I believe that this NZ guy isnt crazy.,probably amoral.

He is a reality-unintended maybe of the smaller world due to technology and the realities of migration that exist today.

without trying in any way to justify or rationalize this guys actions I think its a permanent part of our landscape.

This guy had a thought-inherited or adopted, was able to validate it through the internet and travel....come to a conclusion and then acted to plan and execute.

We have a smaller world-shrunk by technology and population growth.

Mass killings didnt start in the US-or with guns or social media-

This guy felt pretty much the same as many:

-Incas and Mayas felt when the Aztecs showed up-
All of the above when the Spaniards showed up.

-Many African tribes when Shaka and the Zulu nation showed up-
As Shaka and the Zulu nation felt when the Euros showed up.

Like the Arawak with the Caribs
Then All of the above when the Euros showed up

Like wise for the Aborigines,the Chinese,the Native Americans,The Catholics,Muslims,Hindus,Protestants,Whites,Blacks Browns,Yellows,Boers,English,Shiites,Sunni,Tutsis,Hutus,Confederates,Scots,Irish,Venezuelans and more recently the Europeans as the direction and volumes of migration have changed

Humans dont need guns,FB or any particular excuse to feel disenfranchised to the point where they fight back.
Shaka,Alexander the Great,Gengis Khan,The Romans all did well without firing a shot, and little or no free wifi

The winner who writes the history and dictates who is a terrorist,freedom fighter,mass murderer,despot,revolutionary visionary or lunatic.

Lets begin where we are NOW.
Last edited by Redman on March 17th, 2019, 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby Redman » March 17th, 2019, 10:40 am

Duplicate

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby De Dragon » March 17th, 2019, 2:53 pm

Redman wrote:@shogun....
My point was that the benefit of having armed citizens who are able and willing to respond to a mass shooting attempt...is already proven in the US.

I could care less who wrote the article,and whether he is an activist or not...there is a ton of fake news out there...you should know that before you get worked up.


As I posted above before you edited your last post...its 2019 and as such we need to adapt to the world as it is.

Also disproven in the case of Marjorie Stoneman where several armed law enforcement officers just outside sat with their thumbs up their arses while inside was level gunshots/deading.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby shogun » March 17th, 2019, 6:28 pm

Redman wrote:@shogun....
My point was that the benefit of having armed citizens who are able and willing to respond to a mass shooting attempt...is already proven in the US.


So my initial question still stands then? So again, why would one of their paid minions/defenders find it necessary to run with an erroneous story, if it wasn't to get their narrative out there as soon as possible, without even waiting for all the facts? Why the rush? Thing is, there is evidence disproving that "armed citizen" narrative out in the ether as well. And the NRA is aware of that. Then there's the fact that the reputation of the organization itself worldwide, being in steady decline. The negligible number of mass shootings actually stopped by citizen carriers, the fact that NRA encouraged increases in carriers only leads to a rise in gun crime and an arms race with the ill-intentioned/criminals and the fact that test states like Florida, Pennsylvania and Texas have only proved the negatives of increased citizen carriers. Add that to the fact that law enforcement discourages civilians from getting involved, because many intervene only to be gravely wounded or killed and you're left with serious questions to those "benefits." Have a feeling though, that we're too far apart on agreeing here, so I won't push it any further. And just know, I'm not against citizens being armed, just not to the degree the NRA wants them armed.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105892 ... h-us-group

^ And that was before the shooting, eh.

Redman wrote:I could care less who wrote the article,and whether he is an activist or not...there is a ton of fake news out there...you should know that before you get worked up.


Multiple links of the author defending and attacking anyone critical of the NRA with equal evidence from his own social media accounts. :lol: Come nuh man.... thought we moved beyond that "fake news" cop-out, rabbit hole, nonsense? Worked up? Dude, you were the one that jump een juss so, preaching with seeming authority about the PR tactics of the the NRA and that "all places of worship should plan for this type of incident" when clearly you failed to realize that the NZ attack was on a whole new scale, which could never have been foreseen by them, which from all accounts (shooters manifesto) was prompted by the out of control NRA fed, gun-culture coming out of the far right and white nationalist movement in the US, spreading it's infection outside it's borders. Not to mention that it's obvious that there was a narrative push among their proponents in this case. Doesn't sound like an organization comfortable with it's own positions?

Redman wrote:As I posted above before you edited your last post...its 2019 and as such we need to adapt to the world as it is.


I don't agree with that strategy, because the end result only looks more and more dire for society at large. Fundamental direction change is needed to change peoples attitude towards guns. The current attitude only seems to be breeding stockpilers, nuts and fanatics. The bar needs to be higher with regards to who is allowed to take on the responsibility of owning firearms.

Dude, my "edit" was literally just to add "stricter than the US" for all the readers that might not know generally about NZ's gun laws and to clear up a quoting error. Nothing of substance was changed with my argument. Don't try that.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby Redman » March 18th, 2019, 6:42 am

shogun wrote:
Redman wrote:@shogun....
My point was that the benefit of having armed citizens who are able and willing to respond to a mass shooting attempt...is already proven in the US.


Redman wrote:As I posted above before you edited your last post...its 2019 and as such we need to adapt to the world as it is.


I don't agree with that strategy, because the end result only looks more and more dire for society at large. Fundamental direction change is needed to change peoples attitude towards guns. The current attitude only seems to be breeding stockpilers, nuts and fanatics.


You dont agree with dealing with the world as it actually is?-The 'as it is' part is acknowledging and attacking the problem.That there are too many guns in the wrong hands. NOTHING is going to change that.
Changing attitude has a long lead time-and I agree attitudes need to change,just not in the way you think.


The bar needs to be higher with regards to who is allowed to take on the responsibility of owning firearms.


Sure-been saying this for a long time. That said the bar cant be set in order to make it impossible, for a normal citizen to carry.

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Re: Right to bear arms

Postby Ben_spanna » March 18th, 2019, 10:43 am

innocent citizens should have the RIGHT to protect themselves and their families by ANY means necessary...……. those who dont believe that can stay as you are...……….just wait for all the bandits to eventually reform and hope in the mean time that someone you care about doesn't become the next murdered victim in Trinidad.

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