Sandals Thread!

[88sins]

so, this geriatric version of Howard Wolowitz says
"these are not giveaways, they invest a tremendous amount of money in the development of the infrastructure" & that this happens "in developed countries all over the world, even in New York"

he eh see/read that MOU

Tax concessions are normal, but only if you spend you money, not if you want to insist the gov't spend public funds

Many NFL/MLB/NHL/NBA/MLS stadiums are built using taxpayers funds. The profits usually end up in the franchise owner's pockets and they often threaten to move their team elsewhere.

The taxpayers begrudgingly take on this burden because they get a sports team in their city,

A resort is different beast, as mostly tourists would utilize it.

Actually even for those there have been many instances in which the teams themselves put out their own resources, might not be for the development of the actual physical property, might even be as little 0.01% of the cost to develop the stadium. Even if it could barely be called only a minimalist capital investment those sporting teams put up something. Even if it's only gimmick marketing costs like printing mugs & t-shirts to give away.

[Redman]

Until we get more details it's speculation at best to know whether it's a good deal or not.

Final arrangements,cost of funds,amount of equity, vs returns from the hotel and whatever spin off benefits can be realistically expected.

Also how do we benchmark this?

[teems1]

Until we get more details it's speculation at best to know whether it's a good deal or not.

Final arrangements,cost of funds,amount of equity, vs returns from the hotel and whatever spin off benefits can be realistically expected.

Also how do we benchmark this?

There are 16 Sandals resorts throughout 6 islands in the English speaking Caribbean.

It should be fairly easy to compare our deal with theirs and the resulting economic gain/losses.

[pugboy]

what is amusing is that in the old video where he states mottley is the point man,
he also calls out the names of a few other small tobago ppl, one of them even a farmer

but it looks like those folks got booted out when stuart little take over

[De Dragon]

what is amusing is that in the old video where he states mottley is the point man,
he also calls out the names of a few other small tobago ppl, one of them even a farmer

but it looks like those folks got booted out when stuart little take over

Wrong colour and sexual orientation.

[sMASH]

UWI site holding a forum concerning sandals. so far, batting for sandals, and denouncing the concerns raised.

[sMASH]

we getting licks for making noise and driving away sandals.

[Redman]

Maybe an imperfect start is better than no start?

IMHO Sandals should hav been the first of 2-5 international resort chins to be invited into the island.
So if we got sandals MOSTLY right-then it still would be a platform to get more done.

[bluefete]

The Sandals conversation was all wrong.

The government should have been up front with the citizens. The MOU contained the essential elements that would have formed the basis of a contract with Sandals.

The environmental issues relating to No Man's Land, which were essential to Tobagonians, were glossed over.

The government must understand that people are more empowered now and straight talk and the ability to counter fake news are important.

[De Dragon]

Beaches(Sandals owned) Turks and Caicos to close after 23 years of operations over tax dispute. So, if they don't agree with the government, close up shop and go? Gaston Browne (Antigua) was correct in asserting that Sandals is getting too much of a good deal, and needed to be reined in. Didn't our Honourable JUHN Scarfy say that BP/BG/Shell were getting overly favourable concessions from the last regime and he was going to re-negotiate? How is this different from Sandals? Is it because he made the deal?

[bluefete]

Yup. But it would have been the standard deal for Sandals. 25 year tax holiday in the first, then 15 additional years, plus exemptions from taxes/duties on all foreign workers, and all goods imported for/to run the Hotel.

Plus, we would have spent about TT$8 billion to build and outfit the Hotel. Plus another $#1 billion+ to fix the airport plus an additional $1 billion for infrastructure. A $10 billion investment that would have been paid by the taxpayers of TT.

The returns would have been a global brand name establishment together with additional jobs for the people of Tobago plus ancillary spin offs.

[De Dragon]

Yup. But it would have been the standard deal for Sandals. 25 year tax holiday in the first, then 15 additional years, plus exemptions from taxes/duties on all foreign workers, and all goods imported for/to run the Hotel.

Plus, we would have spent about TT$8 billion to build and outfit the Hotel. Plus another $#1 billion+ to fix the airport plus an additional $1 billion for infrastructure. A $10 billion investment that would have been paid by the taxpayers of TT.

The returns would have been a global brand name establishment together with additional jobs for the people of Tobago plus ancillary spin offs.

No one is saying that Sandals, or any hotel chain would be beneficial, but we have to get away from the thinking that we must be subservient in negotiations, especially when BILLIONS of dollars are being bandied about. Even if the returns are great, we have a history of pissing it away, especially PNM controlled regimes. Try to convince the average joe that his money is being spent to build a mega resort, but he must lie on the floor in the hospital because there are no beds.

[Gladiator]

Yup. But it would have been the standard deal for Sandals. 25 year tax holiday in the first, then 15 additional years, plus exemptions from taxes/duties on all foreign workers, and all goods imported for/to run the Hotel.

Plus, we would have spent about TT$8 billion to build and outfit the Hotel. Plus another $#1 billion+ to fix the airport plus an additional $1 billion for infrastructure. A $10 billion investment that would have been paid by the taxpayers of TT.

The returns would have been a global brand name establishment together with additional jobs for the people of Tobago plus ancillary spin offs.

No one is saying that Sandals, or any hotel chain would be beneficial, but we have to get away from the thinking that we must be subservient in negotiations, especially when BILLIONS of dollars are being bandied about. Even if the returns are great, we have a history of pissing it away, especially PNM controlled regimes. Try to convince the average joe that his money is being spent to build a mega resort, but he must lie on the floor in the hospital because there are no beds.

As the saying goes.... them like it so!

[The_Honourable]

UWI site holding a forum concerning sandals. so far, batting for sandals, and denouncing the concerns raised.

Lok Jack sounding like he giving a eulogy.

[Redman]

Yup. But it would have been the standard deal for Sandals. 25 year tax holiday in the first, then 15 additional years, plus exemptions from taxes/duties on all foreign workers, and all goods imported for/to run the Hotel.

Plus, we would have spent about TT$8 billion to build and outfit the Hotel. Plus another $#1 billion+ to fix the airport plus an additional $1 billion for infrastructure. A $10 billion investment that would have been paid by the taxpayers of TT.

The returns would have been a global brand name establishment together with additional jobs for the people of Tobago plus ancillary spin offs.

No one is saying that Sandals, or any hotel chain would be beneficial, but we have to get away from the

thinking that we must be subservient in negotiations,

especially when BILLIONS of dollars are being bandied about. Even if the returns are great, we have a history of pissing it away, especially PNM controlled regimes. Try to convince the average joe that his money is being spent to build a mega resort, but he must lie on the floor in the hospital because there are no beds.

The assumptions that you make on the terms demonstrate the same thinking you say we should get away from.
All that we know in terms of Sandals up the islands is what will go into the negotiations.
Yet you assume that we are incapable of getting a good deal....yet the same individuals,as was said were able to renegotiate the BP/Shell concessions that were given to them.

[16 cycles]

Beaches, along with a number of its smaller neighbors, confirmed on Sunday that it will be closing for extended periods though 2021 due to an ongoing tax dispute with local authorities.

https://www.travelmarketreport.com/arti ... l-Advisors

Beaches is the family version of Sandals - same company...sharing as i saw the article in a local newspaper...

[Monk BANzai]

UWI site holding a forum concerning sandals. so far, batting for sandals, and denouncing the concerns raised.

[Miktay]

Q. If reservations $ are in USD/GBP/EUR iz coming into Sandals private local accounts why would thiz help our foreign exchange imbalances?

[sMASH]

Their whole argument, hinges on the supposition of sandals purchasing significantly from locals and employing a lot of locals.

I remember, Mc Donald's importing bread a time. Most things, when possible, was imported.
The only thing sandals might buy locally is wasa water, and maybe some pine apple.

[Miktay]

Their whole argument, hinges on the supposition of sandals purchasing significantly from locals and employing a lot of locals.

I remember, Mc Donald's importing bread a time. Most things, when possible, was imported.
The only thing sandals might buy locally is wasa water, and maybe some pine apple.

Well approved local maxi men and perishable importers may get some forin currency pay.

So the only way thiz makes sense iz if the local procurement needs are paid for in USD/EUR/GBP.

But as Butch izan astute bidnezzman with lots of experience in the Caribbean why wouldnt he take advantage of the depreciating TT$ and pay local suppliers with that?

[sMASH]

Their whole argument, hinges on the supposition of sandals purchasing significantly from locals and employing a lot of locals.

I remember, Mc Donald's importing bread a time. Most things, when possible, was imported.
The only thing sandals might buy locally is wasa water, and maybe some pine apple.

Well approved local maxi men and perishable importers may get some forin currency pay.

So the only way thiz makes sense iz if the local procurement needs are paid for in USD/EUR/GBP.

But as Butch izan astute bidnezzman with lots of experience in the Caribbean why wouldnt he take advantage of the depreciating TT$ and pay local suppliers with that?

cowweck.


all that talk, is just like the toruba stadium.. one settah, 'it will be bess, it will promote sport, we heading into sporting tourism,' common sense make before book sense. if the QPO does hardly ever get business, and that closer to tourist port and and air port, have a lot more reputation, and in a reall attractive setting, how de rass clat u expect the BLS to pull business, and on top of that compete.... in a very sparse market.

sandals, was getting their building free, in a very attractive location, and still getting the profits after. local jobs, minimal. local employment, merely situational. foreign exchange, restricted.

[Miktay]

Their whole argument, hinges on the supposition of sandals purchasing significantly from locals and employing a lot of locals.

I remember, Mc Donald's importing bread a time. Most things, when possible, was imported.
The only thing sandals might buy locally is wasa water, and maybe some pine apple.

Well approved local maxi men and perishable importers may get some forin currency pay.

So the only way thiz makes sense iz if the local procurement needs are paid for in USD/EUR/GBP.

But as Butch izan astute bidnezzman with lots of experience in the Caribbean why wouldnt he take advantage of the depreciating TT$ and pay local suppliers with that?

cowweck.


all that talk, is just like the toruba stadium.. one settah, 'it will be bess, it will promote sport, we heading into sporting tourism,' common sense make before book sense. if the QPO does hardly ever get business, and that closer to tourist port and and air port, have a lot more reputation, and in a reall attractive setting, how de rass clat u expect the BLS to pull business, and on top of that compete.... in a very sparse market.

sandals, was getting their building free, in a very attractive location, and still getting the profits after. local jobs, minimal. local employment, merely situational. foreign exchange, restricted.

Lok Jack hasnt made a clear case for Sandals...He using the same tired arguments such as "all big bidnezz does get concessions....even hiz factories in Europe...so we must do the same if were to have FDI.

He only talks about the benefits. He doesnt talk about the cost.

Yes of course Arthur...we understand how big bidnezz works worldwide. The real question iz how much should we be paying to have Sandals in Bago? 1 billion? 10 billion? 15 billion?

On a related note I find my tax $ should not be supporting Butch Stewarts lifestyle. Let the J'cans and small islanders do that.

[The_Honourable]

So i was right from before, Lok Jack alluded to it. If UNC win elections in 2020 they might come down on the project for the right or wrong reasons, maybe both. Butch saw that as a threat so he pulled back.

Lok Jack want to get the Sandals deal back so to "fix" the problem, we will have the same public-private partnership where this time, the private sector will be the majority so even if the government changes in 2020, it would not affect them.

[sMASH]

y would unc stop the project if they win?

[De Dragon]

y would unc stop the project if they win?

The implication is that it will simply be stopped because it was a "PNM" project.

[sMASH]

u mad owah,,, money passing and they passing that up.. allyuh dont give them enough credit. sandals would be the biggest box drain evah!!! all yuh forget OAS get all the money for the pt fortain highway and the project remain like stone civic by pree.

kamla dem eh signing now MOU, is level IOU...

[Numb3r4]

y would unc stop the project if they win?

Because dat iz ah PNM projeck....

https://newsday.co.tt/2019/01/30/tobago ... ing-hotel/


If so then why do we need Sandals, it would be clear we have the talent but just lack the opportunity.

Also wouldn't the money allotted to/for Sandals be better spent on the local (tourism) industry first especially in light of this positive rating of Coco Reef and the industry in general.

"Coco Reef was voted the Caribbean’s leading hotel and also Tobago’s leading resort. Blue Haven, located in Bacolet, received the award for being Tobago’s leading hotel; the best Presidential suite and leading hotel in Trinidad awards went to the Hilton."

[sMASH]

that made news, there were two awards that was won. so it proves, that u dont need the exact brand of 'sandals' to turn heads and do well. so the amount of taxes the govt will take to build, for ah next to get the recognition, isnt necessary

[De Dragon]

that made news, there were two awards that was won. so it proves, that u dont need the exact brand of 'sandals' to turn heads and do well. so the amount of taxes the govt will take to build, for ah next to get the recognition, isnt necessary

The PNM faithful will not be pleased by your statements as their High Priest JUHN Scarfy has already spoken...........

[The_Honourable]

y would unc stop the project if they win?

The implication is that it will simply be stopped because it was a "PNM" project.

Exactly Dragon

Unfortunately that is the politics we have. If one party gets into power, the projects of the previous are discontinued, on hold ('investigated"), or restarted under some new name.

u mad owah,,, money passing and they passing that up.. allyuh dont give them enough credit. sandals would be the biggest box drain evah!!! all yuh forget OAS get all the money for the pt fortain highway and the project remain like stone civic by pree.

kamla dem eh signing now MOU, is level IOU...

Well yuh have a case. Butch can easily finance the UNC during elections, and he would be safe. Look how Duprey safe after 10 years and he financed both sides long before clico collapsed.

https://newsday.co.tt/2019/01/30/tobagos-coco-reef-voted-caribbeans-leading-hotel/

If so then why do we need Sandals, it would be clear we have the talent but just lack the opportunity.

Also wouldn't the money allotted to/for Sandals be better spent on the local (tourism) industry first especially in light of this positive rating of Coco Reef and the industry in general.

"Coco Reef was voted the Caribbean’s leading hotel and also Tobago’s leading resort. Blue Haven, located in Bacolet, received the award for being Tobago’s leading hotel; the best Presidential suite and leading hotel in Trinidad awards went to the Hilton."

Well people in the tourism industry lobbying that for years in tobago, and you combine that with the "eco-tourism" idea. The problem is that it have too much heads in the tourism sector who have different opinions on what the tobago tourism product should be. Then you add in the sea bridge issues, poor infrastructure, poor allocations from central government, and foreigners being restricted from buying land.