Over 400 jobs impacted as Caribbean Nitrogen Company shuts down Point Lisas ammonia plant

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

The arbitration is for breach of contract by way of gas curtailments that had happened ... If I remember correctly.

That is separate from negotiations for a new contract.


But, the grounds for arbitration would be the contract that was there in existence at that time

Thanks. That makes more sense. With that information though, that pretty much sets up CNC to look like quite the villain and the NGC looking like someone wanting to protect its interests. It's hard to imagine CNC dupes NGC with their transfer pricing schemes so that they pay less taxes, then sues NGC for gas curtailments that were beyond NGC's control, and now wants to get the same NGC's gas at prices that satisfy their pocket. Kinda sounds like CNC is biting the hand that feeds it. This is besides the fact that the majority shareholder of CNC was the ones that took back MHTL from the govt via the same type of arbitration in london. I think we need an expert to compare the revenue we make from sending that gas to LNG as compared to CNC. If CNC is scheming the country, we can't afford that, especially at this time.

Meanwhile some customers already paying the higher rate requested by NGC. Owners of CNC will make it out to be like things hard but if you don’t call their bluff the country will end up with less revenue.

I've actually been trying to find out which customers have agreed to the higher rates. Can you confirm? I know PLNL is up for renewal this year. Not sure who else. If PLNL agreed to the higher rates, that would make CNC look really bad since it's the same type of plant

A certain nitrogen company and also a methanol company.

lol. More secrecy eh? If only this information could get to the media anonymously so that they can look into it and call out anyone who is trying to take our country for a ride.

Sensationalism at best even if media got info.

[DreamWeaver]

The arbitration is for breach of contract by way of gas curtailments that had happened ... If I remember correctly.

That is separate from negotiations for a new contract.


But, the grounds for arbitration would be the contract that was there in existence at that time

Thanks. That makes more sense. With that information though, that pretty much sets up CNC to look like quite the villain and the NGC looking like someone wanting to protect its interests. It's hard to imagine CNC dupes NGC with their transfer pricing schemes so that they pay less taxes, then sues NGC for gas curtailments that were beyond NGC's control, and now wants to get the same NGC's gas at prices that satisfy their pocket. Kinda sounds like CNC is biting the hand that feeds it. This is besides the fact that the majority shareholder of CNC was the ones that took back MHTL from the govt via the same type of arbitration in london. I think we need an expert to compare the revenue we make from sending that gas to LNG as compared to CNC. If CNC is scheming the country, we can't afford that, especially at this time.

Meanwhile some customers already paying the higher rate requested by NGC. Owners of CNC will make it out to be like things hard but if you don’t call their bluff the country will end up with less revenue.

I've actually been trying to find out which customers have agreed to the higher rates. Can you confirm? I know PLNL is up for renewal this year. Not sure who else. If PLNL agreed to the higher rates, that would make CNC look really bad since it's the same type of plant

A certain nitrogen company and also a methanol company.

lol. More secrecy eh? If only this information could get to the media anonymously so that they can look into it and call out anyone who is trying to take our country for a ride.

Sensationalism at best even if media got info.

Perhaps, but at least the population can know more. I'm not a fan of the media just reporting one side of a story, all of which isn't the complete truth. There are two, sometimes more, sides to a story.

[jl6106]

On the issue of diversification, would the focus on the IT industry and exporting this expertise help (like India)?
What about sports and music (pan manufacturing on a large scale) , will this add value to the economy in the long term?

[zoom rader]

On the issue of diversification, would the focus on the IT industry and exporting this expertise help (like India)?
What about sports and music (pan manufacturing on a large scale) , will this add value to the economy in the long term?

PNM will not follow anything as an example from India.

Pan has already be lost to other countries so they missed that one.

Sports is a pappy show, only when an athlete makes it to the top on his own then they rush to help.

Fete, wine and jam is all half this population thinks off with time off.

[jl6106]

On the issue of diversification, would the focus on the IT industry and exporting this expertise help (like India)?
What about sports and music (pan manufacturing on a large scale) , will this add value to the economy in the long term?

PNM will not follow anything as an example from India.

Pan has already be lost to other countries so they missed that one.

Sports is a pappy show, only when an athlete makes it to the top on his own then they rush to help.

Fete, wine and jam is all half this population thinks off with time off.

ZR what you believe we can do as diversification strategies?

[zoom rader]

On the issue of diversification, would the focus on the IT industry and exporting this expertise help (like India)?
What about sports and music (pan manufacturing on a large scale) , will this add value to the economy in the long term?

PNM will not follow anything as an example from India.

Pan has already be lost to other countries so they missed that one.

Sports is a pappy show, only when an athlete makes it to the top on his own then they rush to help.

Fete, wine and jam is all half this population thinks off with time off.

ZR what you believe we can do as diversification strategies?

You are basically fvcked as a young person. You can diversify on the local level but for the international stage it's a different story.

Sugar is dead
Agri culture is gone
Oil and Gas will probably last 30 years.

Tourism can't compete with the other islands.

Only thing left is to educated yourself and bailed out for migration.

Cayman islands has jack chit they export nothing but they are best the run country in the Caribbean. They sell work permits and collect fees to survive, they are also a tax haven for world companies. No one pays income taxes on wages and they have
an impossible immigration system to deal with .

Trin needs to start by closing the immigration door , population needs to shrink.

We could start by becoming the financial centre of the Caribbean but Cayman Islands holds that title as one billion British pounds are traded.

The only new thing being produced are educated souls but there are few jobs for them. Retirement age should be at 55 to 57 as new folk need to get jobs.

Everyone will say run a bussiness but not everyone is cut out tobe a bussinman. Some fill just like a normal job.

It's very hard at this stage to diversify, I have been hearing this word for years but very little has been complished.

Let's hear from some tuners on their opinions on diversification.

[sMASH]

I feeling to leave pnm people in pnm land and go Australia...

Lime with moog and Martin and dem

[zoom rader]

I feeling to leave pnm people in pnm land and go Australia...

Lime with moog and Martin and dem

Bro if you are young then go for it. Don't waste your time here.
For Oz you need to get the immigration points for migration. I think they have a work program visa for young folk where you do a two year working permit and then apply for residency.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

I feeling to leave pnm people in pnm land and go Australia...

Lime with moog and Martin and dem

Seeing as it's hard for you to get a job here you should go. Might be easier for you to get a job over there.

[sMASH]

willows will miss me...

[DreamWeaver]

willows will miss me...

Rumor has it that willow admitted to the managers that the company is sinking. I doubt he will miss you if the whole thing sinks.

[sMASH]

we had good times

[DreamWeaver]

we had good times

not sure if that's meant to be sarcastic or you genuinely had good times with the rumored tyrant of the estate. lol

[sMASH]

it was fun, for me at least... having to convince big men of their constitutional rights... getting to see the dismissal procedure get used.

[DreamWeaver]

it was fun, for me at least... having to convince big men of their constitutional rights... getting to see the dismissal procedure get used.

As you mention that, I saw an industrial court case up this week. owtu vs ipsl. Haven't those cases been concluded yet? It's a 2016 case so it has to be from that first retrenchment that was done back then. How's that working out for willow? They taking all his money in those cases?

[sMASH]

i does talk to weeps, every so often,,, real stall tactics... but they might actually win... and thats all i would say... its seems promising.

[DreamWeaver]

i does talk to weeps, every so often,,, real stall tactics... but they might actually win... and thats all i would say... its seems promising.

Yeh well I expecting the retrenched folks to win. that first retrenchment wave was done in pure willow fashion with no concern for the implications with the law. he would have been a great tyrant if he only stopped to think before acting. that will undoubtedly be his fall. I suspect one of his trusted right hand men will eventually overthrow him (or the germz will silence him like billy) but if the ship is sinking, it may not make sense. Guess time will tell..

[sMASH]

That was how the cookie crumbles... But this rounds it different, it's not as attractive a prize to aspire to as in the past.

The end game isn't interesting.

[DreamWeaver]

That was how the cookie crumbles... But this rounds it different, it's not as attractive a prize to aspire to as in the past.

The end game isn't interesting.

This rounds hasn't started yet. Still, I don't see how CNC can fend it off so there has to be a cut off point where they can't keep employees anymore. Even if they do manage to fend it off, a 5 year contract is just that. 5 years. After that, prices will only go up more. This whole petrochemical sector is gonna be screwed. The end game may be more interesting watching from another country.

[sMASH]

there was talk that cnc wanted to go the direct route, like Methanex, and hire their workers to work for them directly, instead of the contractor middle man. but, that was before the germs had a big stake of shares... if i remember correctly.

[vaiostation]

^^^ I remember that. I believe there was a time when IPSL workers at CNC used to get bonus while de rest of the IPSL division like methanol and AUM used to get salt. Thankfully Willy put a stop to that. IPSL workers lucky if they get anything at all now. They might still get a small bonus now an then when De germz feel pity for them, but nothing to talk about...

[DreamWeaver]

cnc would actually be showing more cost efficiency if they were to hire the ipsl employees directly. But yes the germs own the middle man and have a majority with cnc so that basically feeds the inefficient system they have. cnc really is very inefficient as a business model. and dont get me started on all the projects that they have done and continue to do. 3 words: WASTE OF MONEY. They put things that not even pcs and farmland care to do.
If cnc would cut all those unnecessary projects and hire the ipsl employees directly, they would save a ton of money. The last problem would be the single sourcing of the germz but i suspect there is much bobol with that current scheme to even fix, sadly.
The bonuses are the last thing on anybody's mind in this economy. Heard the germz had no choice but to pay it for 2017 because too many ppl were leaving. if cnc closes then they wont have a choice but to retrench again though. nobody wants that kind on instability in a job. sadly, I dont think anywhere in the oil and gas sector is safe with the dawn of the age of shale oil and gas.

[De Dragon]

The arbitration is for breach of contract by way of gas curtailments that had happened ... If I remember correctly.

That is separate from negotiations for a new contract.


But, the grounds for arbitration would be the contract that was there in existence at that time

Thanks. That makes more sense. With that information though, that pretty much sets up CNC to look like quite the villain and the NGC looking like someone wanting to protect its interests. It's hard to imagine CNC dupes NGC with their transfer pricing schemes so that they pay less taxes, then sues NGC for gas curtailments that were beyond NGC's control, and now wants to get the same NGC's gas at prices that satisfy their pocket. Kinda sounds like CNC is biting the hand that feeds it. This is besides the fact that the majority shareholder of CNC was the ones that took back MHTL from the govt via the same type of arbitration in london. I think we need an expert to compare the revenue we make from sending that gas to LNG as compared to CNC. If CNC is scheming the country, we can't afford that, especially at this time.

Meanwhile some customers already paying the higher rate requested by NGC. Owners of CNC will make it out to be like things hard but if you don’t call their bluff the country will end up with less revenue.

I've actually been trying to find out which customers have agreed to the higher rates. Can you confirm? I know PLNL is up for renewal this year. Not sure who else. If PLNL agreed to the higher rates, that would make CNC look really bad since it's the same type of plant

A certain nitrogen company and also a methanol company.

lol. More secrecy eh? If only this information could get to the media anonymously so that they can look into it and call out anyone who is trying to take our country for a ride.

Nu-Iron.

[DreamWeaver]

Ok so I pulled these contract expiry dates from the Gas Master Plan although I can't vouch for the accuracy of Poten & Partners. The document was released in 2015 so everything set to expire from then til now would have probably expired.

LNG:
Train 1 Expiry - 2019
Train 2 Expiry - 2022
Train 3 Expiry - 2023
Train 4 Expiry - 2025

Ammonia:
Tringen 1 Expiry - End 2019
Tringen 2 Expiry - End 2019
Yara Expiry - End 2019
PCS 1 Expiry - End 2018
PCS 2 Expiry - End 2018
PCS 3 Expiry - End 2018
PCS 4 Expiry - End 2018
PLNL Expiry - End 2018
N2000 Expiry - End 2019
CNC Expiry - End 2017
AUM Expiry - End 2027

Methanol:
TTMC 1 Expiry - End 2015
TTMC 2 Expiry - End 2015
CMC Expiry - End 2015
MIV Expiry - Expired
Titan Expiry - End 2019
Atlas Expiry - End 2024
M5000 Expiry - May 2020

Iron & Steel:
Arcelor Mittal 1, 2 & 3 Expiry - Expired
Nu-Iron Expiry - End 2027

[sMASH]

It had talk that titan would be stopped and atlas alone would remain online.... 2 years again for that to happen if it is true.

[DreamWeaver]

It had talk that titan would be stopped and atlas alone would remain online.... 2 years again for that to happen if it is true.

Yeh I didn't hear the details until now but I knew methanex was rumored to have wanted to decommission and move a plant to the states. Guess we'll wait and see.
I'm pretty sure some of those contracts that say expiring at the end of 2018 aren't really at the end but rather months before that but I guess we shall see that as well.

[De Dragon]

^^^ I remember that. I believe there was a time when IPSL workers at CNC used to get bonus while de rest of the IPSL division like methanol and AUM used to get salt. Thankfully Willy put a stop to that. IPSL workers lucky if they get anything at all now. They might still get a small bonus now an then when De germz feel pity for them, but nothing to talk about...

The pricky explanation was that CNC was owned by different shareholders

[DreamWeaver]

The arbitration is for breach of contract by way of gas curtailments that had happened ... If I remember correctly.

That is separate from negotiations for a new contract.


But, the grounds for arbitration would be the contract that was there in existence at that time

Okay so CNC3 Business Watch said tonight that Caribbean Nitrogen Co. did not approach NGC for negotiations and they say that NGC says the matter between both companies is now the subject of arbitration. So apparently there can be arbitration for commercial negotiations when there are no distinct, current contracts in place? I can only assume the original contract's arbitration clause survives the termination of the contract and can be implemented in re-negotiating terms. Considering all this, I wonder how long an arbitration process like this would take. CNC hasnt sent home anyone yet so let's see how long they will carry these 110 workers while they wait for their arbitration judgement.

[DreamWeaver]

Tonight's CNC3 Business Watch:

http://www.cnc3.co.tt/business-watch/bu ... -continues