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Petrotrin refinery shut down

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » August 28th, 2018, 10:37 am

sinister_14 wrote:
IMG-20180828-WA0007.jpeg


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby *$kїđž!™ » August 28th, 2018, 10:47 am

Is it a left hand drive car he driving there...wouldnt take him on nah...too much ppl who know everything..

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Duane 3NE 2NR » August 28th, 2018, 10:48 am

*$kїđž![emoji769] wrote:Is it a left hand drive car he driving there...wouldnt take him on nah...too much ppl who know everything..

I thought the same thing but it’s a selfie video so the image is probably reversed

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby MaxPower » August 28th, 2018, 10:52 am

^ mirrored more than likely.

And the guy is illiterate.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby tr1ad » August 28th, 2018, 10:52 am

Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:
*$kїđž![emoji769] wrote:Is it a left hand drive car he driving there...wouldnt take him on nah...too much ppl who know everything..

I thought the same thing but it’s a selfie video so the image is probably reversed


low dem na dan

but yes a lot of misinformation spreading as usual......... everyone have a sauce

people acting like they never buy gas from Venezuela at the pumps here....

as per the talk of aruba, that refinery down years now... Chevron always make mention of restarting / converting to a gas facility but nothing concrete

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Playerz » August 28th, 2018, 10:52 am

timelapse wrote:I glad is PNM close it down , else they woulda be pulling the racism card


Kams will still get blame :lol:

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Cantmis » August 28th, 2018, 10:55 am

Seeing is believing

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby neilsingh100 » August 28th, 2018, 10:55 am

Average wrote:
neilsingh100 wrote:Guy in video is clearly uninformed. I hope the majority of the population understand the need to make a business decision and don't buy into the propaganda of the union. The new piece of misinformation is the country now have to pay more to import gasoline which is not true. The fact that we had to sell our gasoline at a loss on the international market proves we could buy at a lower cost.


Are you willing to correct his mistakes? Inform us please of where he spoke nonsense.
Government gets most of its energy revenue from taxes and royalties from companies in the gas value chain (i.e. BP, Shell, BHP, NGC, PPGPL, MHTL, CNC, PLNL, ALNG, etc). Petrotrin is unable to pay the taxes and royalties owed to the government as well as debt when it becomes due so the company was mainly benefiting employees. It is also a net user of foreign exchange so it makes no sense to keep an entity that is of no benefit to the country as a whole. Imagine they extracting 40,000 barrels of oil per day and tax payers get nothing but are now asked to bail them out and use up our depleting foreign exchange reserves to import oil for them to refine at a loss so that a small percentage of the population can benefit.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby tr1ad » August 28th, 2018, 11:06 am

Good read

The country is, today, bracing for a decision on the restructuring of the Petroleum Company of Trinidad and Tobago Limited (Petrotrin).

The decision has been preceded by allegations that the company has the potential to bankrupt the country and clear indications that the restructuring of Petrotrin will be a painful exercise.

How did we get here? Who is to blame and what are the lessons to be learnt?

Petrotrin was incorporated in 1993 to consolidate the interests of the Trinidad and Tobago Oil Company Limited (Trintoc) and the Trinidad and Tobago Petroleum Company Limited (Trintopec).

These companies were, in fact, an amalgamation of predecessor companies including Trinidad Leaseholds Limited, BP, Shell, Texaco and others. In the case of both Trintoc and Trintopec and later Trinmar assets, the Government of Trinidad and Tobago spent hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers’ money to protect jobs and to control “the commanding heights of the economy.”

The core mandate of protecting jobs has remained with the company, regardless of which political party has been in power. By bringing all three assets together then, the Government unwittingly helped consolidate the Oilfield Workers’ Trade Union’s power in the State-owned energy sector and made it even more difficult to institute changes.

The amalgamation of the companies was done without a full understanding of how the two cultures were to be integrated, basic issues like the classification of workers and salaries were not properly thought through, with some positions requiring individuals to operate in the same job with different titles. This never helped and the crucial issues of esprit de corps and organisational commitment would have been difficult to achieve.

Petrotrin as a company has three key areas, Exploration and Production (both on-land and offshore in its Trinmar assets), Refining and the Marketing and its Administrative areas that will include things like its hospital.

To appreciate the company’s challenge, it must be looked at from these perspectives.

In terms of Exploration and Production, Petrotrin is in control of significant assets and its on-land fields are stripper fields in which the individual wells produce few barrels of oil per day. This is because most of the fields were discovered over 100 years ago and cannot produce significant oil without the use of various secondary recovery methods.

In terms of its offshore assets in Trinmar, the last discovery, the Soldado Field, was made in 1914. Therefore, you have a company that is in the business of producing fewer and fewer barrels of oil per day but with the same level of staffing and fixed costs. This is a recipe for significant increase in the average lifting cost since this is determined by volume divided by fixed and variable cost.

The lack of money to explore for new oil has left the company in a chicken and egg situation, where it is sitting on potentially lucrative assets but with no money or technology to go after it. This leads to make-up news about major fields being discovered by Petrotrin, as happened in 2012 when then prime minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar announced a major discovery of the Jubilee field which was supposed to lead to significant increase in production.

On the Refining and Marketing side, Petrotrin was faced with an ageing refinery that had long passed its best days when it was the fifth largest refinery in the world and key to the World War II effort. Changes in the stipulation of fuels, like the removal of lead, the challenges to its traditional markets due to the PetroCaribe deal and colossal waste of money in cost overruns due to the refinery upgrades have crippled the company.

There was no doubt that the board of the late Malcolm Jones had to reconfigure the refinery if it was to stay in business, but Petrotrin did so on borrowed money that was not used efficiently with massive cost overruns. The project management skills of the company left a lot to be desired and the projects were all years behind schedule, hundreds of millions over budget and significantly increased the company’s gearing ratio.

It is this debt and the inability to pay back the money from creditors, coupled with the near junk rating that is driving this restructuring. The Government is faced with Petrotrin’s liability impacting its own credit rating and its ability to borrow.

On the administrative side, Petrotrin continues to carry much higher costs than other similar companies and its pension and health benefits carry major costs with it supporting workers and their families, even after they retire, in private clinics and its own hospital.

Faced with this, governments have refused to act, part of their inaction has had to do with the strength of the union that has always threatened and on some occasions shut down the company if threatened. This has led to a continuous increase in salaries that are unsustainable.

But a big part of the challenge is that from the People’s National Movement to the United National Congress, both major parties have seen Petrotrin as an opportunity for political largesse, supporters are regularly placed in positions in the company and the management is changed whenever there is a change in government and often when there is even a change in the board.

This has led to a situation where it’s about survival for the upper management and a loss of talent, as those who have the capacity often take opportunities where innovation and stability reside.

There is no doubt that today has an omen of a watershed moment, but with the strength of the OWTU at risk and so much to lose on personal and political levels, the issue is whether there will be common ground or if there will be an attempt to mash up de place.
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2018-08- ... -challenge

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby abducted » August 28th, 2018, 11:07 am


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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby sinister_14 » August 28th, 2018, 11:08 am

So the army and the coast guard has touch down on the refinery and port.....things about to get heated...

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Joshie23 » August 28th, 2018, 11:12 am

neilsingh100 wrote:
Average wrote:
neilsingh100 wrote:Guy in video is clearly uninformed. I hope the majority of the population understand the need to make a business decision and don't buy into the propaganda of the union. The new piece of misinformation is the country now have to pay more to import gasoline which is not true. The fact that we had to sell our gasoline at a loss on the international market proves we could buy at a lower cost.


Are you willing to correct his mistakes? Inform us please of where he spoke nonsense.
Government gets most of its energy revenue from taxes and royalties from companies in the gas value chain (i.e. BP, Shell, BHP, NGC, PPGPL, MHTL, CNC, PLNL, ALNG, etc). Petrotrin is unable to pay the taxes and royalties owed to the government as well as debt when it becomes due so the company was mainly benefiting employees. It is also a net user of foreign exchange so it makes no sense to keep an entity that is of no benefit to the country as a whole. Imagine they extracting 40,000 barrels of oil per day and tax payers get nothing but are now asked to bail them out and use up our depleting foreign exchange reserves to import oil for them to refine at a loss so that a small percentage of the population can benefit.


Remind me what CLICO did for the country again? How much did that cost taxpayers again? What percentage of the population benefitted from that bailout again? Where is Lawrence Duprey now? At least we know where Malcolm Jones is, with all due respect to his family of course, but pray tell, where is Lawrence Duprey?

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby The_Honourable » August 28th, 2018, 11:12 am

timelapse wrote:I glad is PNM close it down , else they woulda be pulling the racism card


ENT!? All now waterfront will be hot. OWTU by kamla house in phillipine beating and booing a mannequin. i95.5 and 91.9 will have people calling in saying how dem indian want everything and want black people to suffer.

bushwakka wrote:
EFFECTIC DESIGNS wrote:Ultimately what does this mean for Trinidad?


Yawn.....nothing, band launches continue, carnival still on for next year....no rioting
#wejamminstill


Having fete thursday for a new pnm headquarters... iwer will be dey.

#wejamminstill #wavedbalisier

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby sinister_14 » August 28th, 2018, 11:12 am

Image

It was a feeling of gloom and doom outside the Pointe-a-Pierre refinery on Tuesday morning as workers received news that the refinery will be shut down and some 700 workers will be sent home.

From as early as 6 am, an Oilfield Workers Trade Union representative stood outside the main gates advising workers that the union will be addressing them outside Beaumont Hill at 12 midday to give an update on the current state of the troubled oil company.

Some of the workers appeared harassed and frustrated.

Others were angry and a few were nonchalant.

One worker James Gabriel said, "At this point, we have to do what is necessary to safeguard our families. There is a lot of secrecy and uncertainty. People are anxious and worried. In the event that we are sent home, we will have to look for other jobs."

Another worker who requested anonymity said he intended to go to the Point Lisas Industrial Estate to find work.

A clerical worker who walked past the security shrugged saying, “What will we do? We have no choice. They are in charge.”

Outside the Trinmar facility, hundreds of Trinmar workers gathered.

Advising them that the union will be meeting with them later today.

In an internal company memo sent by George Commissiong, all private payroll employees Grades 11-17 from Petrotrin as well as Grades 8 and above from Trinmar Operations were invited to a meeting at 3 pm today at the Pointe-a-Pierre staff club.

A source said there was the suspicion that these workers will be sent home.

President General of the OWTU Ancel Roget is expected to address the media at 1:30 pm.

Roget has not revealed details of whether the OWTU was informed beforehand of the impending shutdown.

The union and Petrotrin are scheduled to meet at 10:30 am at the Petrotrin Staff Club following which he will meet with workers at midday.

We will have more information as this story develops.

http://www.cnc3.co.tt/press-release/fru ... panys-fate

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby toyolink » August 28th, 2018, 11:14 am

A comprehensive evaluation of the importance of Petrotrin must include;
-What is the states income from personal income taxes.
-What is the states income from vat and other taxes paid by individuals and other entities dependent
on Petrotrin.
-What is the impact of Petrotrin's purchases on the domestic economy.
What would be the social impact of full or partial closure and what measures need to be in place to mitigate
same.
The consequences of flawed transformational plans could hit us all hard.
I would really 'love' to see the Risk Management plan/matrix.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Joshie23 » August 28th, 2018, 11:18 am

sinister_14 wrote:So the army and the coast guard has touch down on the refinery and port.....things about to get heated...


Source?

toyolink wrote:A comprehensive evaluation of the importance of Petrotrin must include;
-What is the states income from personal income taxes.
-What is the states income from vat and other taxes paid by individuals and other entities dependent
on Petrotrin.
-What is the impact of Petrotrin's purchases on the domestic economy.
What would be the social impact of full or partial closure and what measures need to be in place to mitigate
same.
The consequences of flawed transformational plans could hit us all hard.
I would really 'love' to see the Risk Management plan/matrix.


Interesting points, Toyolink.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby kstt » August 28th, 2018, 11:22 am

"Roget has not revealed details of whether the OWTU was informed beforehand of the impending shutdown."

Roget sell out. He must be get a next $15 million.


From dragging and beating Mannequin to saying prayers and blaming the white man.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby sMASH » August 28th, 2018, 11:28 am

The closure of petrotrin has the same weight of clico.. Needs to be Weighed out.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby bushwakka » August 28th, 2018, 11:32 am

kstt wrote:"Roget has not revealed details of whether the OWTU was informed beforehand of the impending shutdown."

Roget sell out. He must be get a next $15 million.


From dragging and beating Mannequin to saying prayers and blaming the white man.


methinks you read it very correctly dear sir

well stated

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby abducted » August 28th, 2018, 11:42 am

We had rice , that gone!!!
We had cocoa, that gone!!!
We had sugarcane, that gone!!!
We had oil and gas, that gone!!!

Everything that made this country a financial power of the Caribbean has now been mismanaged, stolen and raped.
We as a people need to look past our differences and truely see where we are now as a society, as to 20 years ago.
We cannot just blame leadership. We must bare blame to ourselves as well.
We have been caught up in political and racial divide and it has gotten us where??
When will we realize that regardless of race and politcal stance, we all feel the negatives of a failing economy.
I remember the days when men were proud to where the uniform of an Oil and Gas Company. Proud to say they worked at Caroni and when we were all proud to be Trinbagonians.
Today however our ancestors who fought for our independence and struggled to build an empire of the Caribbean are now restless in their graves.
We have allowed greedy, selfish individuals to rape this land. We have gone from a nation of export to one that imports.
Its simple economics!!!
Export, we make money!!!
Import, we spend money!!!

How could we have allowed our once thriving agriculture sector to wither and die?
Now our main go to ( oil and gas ) is no more.
Let us not even begin to talk about tourism.

I look around and I see concerned men and women. Men and women that have invested their lives to working for a company and companies in the past that have suffered similar fate and they are ligitimately afraid.
To see lives being affected with the level of stress being placed upon them in this very critical situation. Saddens me.

Know well people that now that gas is being bought from overseas to supply the local market , what do you think will follow?
Lets really look at the trend in gas prices at the pump in recent years.
Again simple economics!
This is the reality that we face today.
We are here.
It is well documented and proven that Trinbagonians are a special race of people capable of adapting. This however should not be exploited.
We cannot continue to be handed heartache and headaches and then allow those that send the stresses our way to then turn and laugh at us and say things like " ent we raise tax and they still buying" .
How much more will you take?

It is surely a time now that we really forget which boat granny came on and which farm grandpa worked on and unite.
UNITY is more than just a word. Do we have what it takes to prove this?

I remember seeing cars of then Texaco company employees being driven around and you would ask Kerry how did you know they were Texaco emplyees?
My answer to this question is this...
They were men and women that were so proud to be apart of something bigger than themselves that the helmets they wore on the plants were placed at the back of the car they drove with the Texaco emblem facing out the back windshield.
Back then they were somehow respected by society.
Back then the police officer in the community was a pillar of value.

We have lost our way .
However we can once again regain our magestic place in the world.
The question is ARE WE REALLY READY TO UNITE AND GET THE JOB DONE?

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby The_Honourable » August 28th, 2018, 11:51 am

Kevin Ramnarine on Petrotrin and the company's future.


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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby orionis » August 28th, 2018, 11:54 am

Possibility of a Shell running the refinery.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Trinispougla » August 28th, 2018, 11:54 am

Joshie23 wrote:
neilsingh100 wrote:
Average wrote:
neilsingh100 wrote:Guy in video is clearly uninformed. I hope the majority of the population understand the need to make a business decision and don't buy into the propaganda of the union. The new piece of misinformation is the country now have to pay more to import gasoline which is not true. The fact that we had to sell our gasoline at a loss on the international market proves we could buy at a lower cost.


Are you willing to correct his mistakes? Inform us please of where he spoke nonsense.
Government gets most of its energy revenue from taxes and royalties from companies in the gas value chain (i.e. BP, Shell, BHP, NGC, PPGPL, MHTL, CNC, PLNL, ALNG, etc). Petrotrin is unable to pay the taxes and royalties owed to the government as well as debt when it becomes due so the company was mainly benefiting employees. It is also a net user of foreign exchange so it makes no sense to keep an entity that is of no benefit to the country as a whole. Imagine they extracting 40,000 barrels of oil per day and tax payers get nothing but are now asked to bail them out and use up our depleting foreign exchange reserves to import oil for them to refine at a loss so that a small percentage of the population can benefit.


Remind me what CLICO did for the country again? How much did that cost taxpayers again? What percentage of the population benefitted from that bailout again? Where is Lawrence Duprey now? At least we know where Malcolm Jones is, with all due respect to his family of course, but pray tell, where is Lawrence Duprey?

We does hadda explain everything to allyuh? Were you born pre-2010? Clico was the biggest insurance firm in the Caribbean. They had investments from Jamaica to Guyana and virtually everywhere in between. In addition to that, they owned two methanol plants on the estate. Which is why GORTT had to bail them out because, in some islands, they had the potential to bankrupt their economies and no one would ever trade with TT again. It is the exact reason Obama had to bail out the banks who had significant holdings in some of Europe's biggest economies. He did not have the luxury of the then Icelandic government who allowed their banks to fail

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby kstt » August 28th, 2018, 12:12 pm

Jump high jump low they will spin it and blame KAMLA!

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby neilsingh100 » August 28th, 2018, 12:31 pm

Joshie23 wrote:Remind me what CLICO did for the country again? How much did that cost taxpayers again? What percentage of the population benefitted from that bailout again? Where is Lawrence Duprey now? At least we know where Malcolm Jones is, with all due respect to his family of course, but pray tell, where is Lawrence Duprey?
The major reason for bailing out Clico was to protect the financial system of the entire country from collapsing. CL/Clico at the time (like Lehman Bros in the US) posed significant systemic risk and if allowed to fail would have had a domino effect and other the large financials institutions like banks, UTC, NIB etc would have failed also. In the end the government put CL Financial in liquidation and will recover most if not all the money that was put in. The same cannot be said for Petrotrin if money is put in. Petrotrin is more like Caroni.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Trinispougla » August 28th, 2018, 12:41 pm

neilsingh100 wrote:
Joshie23 wrote:Remind me what CLICO did for the country again? How much did that cost taxpayers again? What percentage of the population benefitted from that bailout again? Where is Lawrence Duprey now? At least we know where Malcolm Jones is, with all due respect to his family of course, but pray tell, where is Lawrence Duprey?
The major reason for bailing out Clico was to protect the financial system of the entire country from collapsing. CL/Clico at the time (like Lehman Bros in the US) posed significant systemic risk and if allowed to fail would have had a domino effect and other the large financials institutions like banks, UTC, NIB etc would have failed also. In the end the government put CL Financial in liquidation and will recover most if not all the money that was put in. The same cannot be said for Petrotrin if money is put in. Petrotrin is more like Caroni.

Exactly........Petrotrin needs help or else the entire company crashes and that would be the end of Sweet TT as we know it. Petrotrin would go the same way as Caroni 1975 if oil was as uneconomical as sugar became after the repealing of the Lome Convention.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby sMASH » August 28th, 2018, 12:47 pm

No. The fall of petrotrin will not lead to the demise of the country. But it will be a significant blow that will ricochet thorough out the economy.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Trinispougla » August 28th, 2018, 1:03 pm

sMASH wrote:No. The fall of petrotrin will not lead to the demise of the country. But it will be a significant blow that will ricochet thorough out the economy.

You're right.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby agent007 » August 28th, 2018, 1:08 pm

If you have a bad cut in your leg, would you go and play in still canal water? This is the analogical question to Petrotrin and its current state. For years the workers together with all other stakeholders could have made a difference to create a leaner more efficient company. Now that a leg in the body of T&T got infected, its like the owner of that leg saying to inject it and dress it and leave there until better can be done but yet you doing the same thing over and over by playing in canal water? Doing the same thing but expecting a different result? Soon when the leg infection grows so badly that gangrene is present - yet the owner says nah, do worry, just inject it and dress it. How stupid is that? When doctors realize that the owner of this leg is nuts, to save his life they amputate the leg and then we have a set of political points bandwagonists joining the discussion to ask, but how you could cut the man leg off just so? How would he look physically after that amputation? The 'supposed' man I am referring to perhaps may have a family and they would prefer that he loses that leg and then receive treatment to recover and perhaps use crotches or a wheelchair or even get a prosthetic leg as opposed to burying/cremating him now would they? That way everybody wins. But now as I liken this to Petrotrin's situation, they have been bleeding and infecting this entire country with massive debt yet they want us to turn a blind eye to this because 700-5000 people deserve to eat ah food still regardless the cost to the rest of the country. That sounding right?

As it stands....
1. So workers want the refinery to remain alive so they could continue the status quo.
2. UNC et al. having nothing constructive to think about so in the spirit of being an opposer, might as well join and say blame the PNM.
3. The 100+ trade union staff now have to adjust their Christmas wish list from BMW X6's to boat ride tickets, because of a drop in revenue attributable to union fees.
etc etc.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery to shut down?

Postby Trinispougla » August 28th, 2018, 1:15 pm

agent007 wrote:If you have a bad cut in your leg, would you go and play in still canal water? This is the analogical question to Petrotrin and its current state. For years the workers together with all other stakeholders could have made a difference to create a leaner more efficient company. Now that a leg in the body of T&T got infected, its like the owner of that leg saying to inject it and dress it and leave there until better can be done but yet you doing the same thing over and over by playing in canal water? Doing the same thing but expecting a different result? Soon when the leg infection grows so badly that gangrene is present - yet the owner says nah, do worry, just inject it and dress it. How stupid is that? When doctors realize that the owner of this leg is nuts, to save his life they amputate the leg and then we have a set of political points bandwagonists joining the discussion to ask, but how you could cut the man leg off just so? How would he look physically after that amputation? The 'supposed' man I am referring to perhaps may have a family and they would prefer that he loses that leg and then receive treatment to recover and perhaps use crotches or a wheelchair or even get a prosthetic leg as opposed to burying/cremating him now would they? That way everybody wins. But now as I liken this to Petrotrin's situation, they have been bleeding and infecting this entire country with massive debt yet they want us to turn a blind eye to this because 700-5000 people deserve to eat ah food still regardless the cost to the rest of the country. That sounding right?

As it stands....
1. So workers want the refinery to remain alive so they could continue the status quo.
2. UNC et al. having nothing constructive to think about so in the spirit of being an opposer, might as well join and say blame the PNM.
3. The 100+ trade union staff now have to adjust their Christmas wish list from BMW X6's to boat ride tickets, because of a drop in revenue attributable to union fees.
etc etc.

:lol: :lol:

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