Petrotrin refinery shut down

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

But why put in a separate company tho? Since OWTU rejected the offer, that mean the asset is up for grabs?

This is to break the union and get a foreign company or new owner to take over with an injection of capital. Union could never afford to take over refinery. Union dues in ttd and small. Cost of a refinery would be in usd and would be used to pay off the 850m U.S. bond. Offering the refinery to the union is like offering a person you know can’t afford to purchase an item first dibs on purchasing said item. Just a show.

[neilsingh100]

Man spend the better part of an hour going in circles to justify his decision but no mention of where refined products coming from and what price we can expect at the pumps

They already said in the last budget that the subsidy will be removed when prices at the pump would fluctuate with the prices of oil. Based on current oil prices super should be around $4.50-$5.00/l. If we import we should also get higher quality fuel since some of Petrotrin products like diesel were of very poor quality.

Madam Speaker, as stated in my last two Budget Statements, it is necessary to eliminate the fuel subsidy, since it is not a good or effcient use of taxpayers’ funds. The wealthy man who drives a diesel BMW X5 receives the same subsidy, or more, as the working man who drives a Nissan pickup. It should also be noted that as recently as 2014, the fuel subsidy was as high as $7 billion, which could have been used to create jobs, pay for health care and assist the poor and underprivileged.
I therefore propose to adjust the fuel subsidy, as indicated early in this Budget Statement in order to ensure a degree of stability in fuel prices within the national economy. In due course, later in 2018 the Ministry of Energy and Energy Industries will be required to publish on a monthly basis the wholesale and retail product prices for the above categories of fuel. In this way, fuel prices will in the future fluctuate with the prices of oil and the prices of refined products.

[sMASH]

The refining assets of Petrotrin can now be put in a separate company for opportunity attention. The OWTU will be given the first option to own and operate it on the most favourable terms.

OWTU already refuse. Clearly they have no plan and only tactic is to stall hoping tax payers will bail them out. Petrotrin is almost insolvent so it would have been easier for the government to let it got bankrupt and let the bondholders take it over and liquidate. In this circumstance employees will loose out even more. These unions are real backward thinking and are no longer relevant. I hope they wise up soon. In the US, GM was similar to Petrotrin and they had to let it go bankrupt to get rid of the union and then do the turnaround.

when the refinery is closed, as they say PETROTRIN the company isnt closing, who will repay the bonds in the ensuing years?

if the refinery is reversed and petrotrin is allowed to carry on as is(for the most part) who will repay the bonds in the ensuing years?

[neilsingh100]

when the refinery is closed, as they say PETROTRIN the company isnt closing, who will repay the bonds in the ensuing years?

if the refinery is reversed and petrotrin is allowed to carry on as is(for the most part) who will repay the bonds in the ensuing years?

They hoping the E&P part of the business can be turnaround to be profitable and on that basis refinance the debt. If they can make US$20 in profit from a barrel of oil and they producing 40,000 barrels a day that is US$292 million in profit per year so that could go to pay off the debt and reinvest in the E&P instead of subsiding refining and marketing. As I said before, if you remove the union and politics from the equation this is a simple business decision.

[sMASH]

4000 odd people on the breadline all at once, in a small country like this, is disaster. socioeconomic disaster. where those people getting incomes?

[The_Honourable]

But why put in a separate company tho? Since OWTU rejected the offer, that mean the asset is up for grabs?

This is to break the union and get a foreign company or new owner to take over with an injection of capital. Union could never afford to take over refinery. Union dues in ttd and small. Cost of a refinery would be in usd and would be used to pay off the 850m U.S. bond. Offering the refinery to the union is like offering a person you know can’t afford to purchase an item first dibs on purchasing said item. Just a show.

INTERESTING... thanks for this!

Well let's see what happens on September 7th. I expect to see a Rowley mannequin.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

But why put in a separate company tho? Since OWTU rejected the offer, that mean the asset is up for grabs?

This is to break the union and get a foreign company or new owner to take over with an injection of capital. Union could never afford to take over refinery. Union dues in ttd and small. Cost of a refinery would be in usd and would be used to pay off the 850m U.S. bond. Offering the refinery to the union is like offering a person you know can’t afford to purchase an item first dibs on purchasing said item. Just a show.

INTERESTING... thanks for this!

Well let's see what happens on September 7th. I expect to see a Rowley mannequin.

Don’t expect much. We living Trinidad and Tobago at the end of the day. Nothing ever really happens. No accountability. No real repercussions generally. Plans already set in motion and no small sickout or day of relaxation gonna change that. By October another issue will pop up to be focused on.

[Victory_Specification]

4000 odd people on the breadline all at once, in a small country like this, is disaster. socioeconomic disaster. where those people getting incomes?

I am sure some of them will get re hired under the new structure.
The majority would have been paid wages more than that of the industry standard for the same postions, and of course let's not forget the notorious overtime Refinery workers used to take home. I hope they saved for the rainy day.

For those who didn't manage their money well, or those that have large families, then there would definitely be some problems there.

[neilsingh100]

4000 odd people on the breadline all at once, in a small country like this, is disaster. socioeconomic disaster. where those people getting incomes?

According to the government they will get a "separation package" and from waht I hear a large amount of workers walking away with 6 & 7 figures amounts plus those close to retirement will get a pension. I also think some foreign entity could buy the refinery, upgrade it and some of the workers will get back a job.

[antlind]

The way that Rowley has positioned his decision is basically to tell the people of TT that he is doing this to save them (the taxpayers) lots of money. For the folks who have no stake in Petrotrin it sounds good to them. However Rowley has not taken into consideration (or maybe he has and doesn’t care) the impact this decision will have on the segment of the population that depends on Petrotrin, not only the refinery employees but the employees of the downstream companies that support the refinery. This impact will largely and primarily be felt by the southern TT population initially. But soon enough everyone will feel the impact from this decision.

[sMASH]

Unless the purchasing company is a scrap iron dealer, any investment in the refinery will make its closure unjustified.

They getting severance, that money dwindles.

The problem lies on the other people who depend on their spending to earn income.

With the retrenches in the last couple years, real people struggling to make a dollar on the lowest rungs on the economic ladder. Then u injecting 4000 people into that, in addition to removing the business that was there before.

The previous time the government bought the refinery was to retain jobs. To avoid upheaval.



And then the people would see the refinery open back.




Allyuh play smart with foolishness.
What eh miss yuh eh pass yuh

[K74T]

[alfa]

4000 odd people on the breadline all at once, in a small country like this, is disaster. socioeconomic disaster. where those people getting incomes?

According to the government they will get a "separation package" and from waht I hear a large amount of workers walking away with 6 & 7 figures amounts plus those close to retirement will get a pension. I also think some foreign entity could buy the refinery, upgrade it and some of the workers will get back a job.

However the thousands of temporary/casual some of whom have been there for decades go home with nothing whatsoever

[gastly369]

4000 odd people on the breadline all at once, in a small country like this, is disaster. socioeconomic disaster. where those people getting incomes?

According to the government they will get a "separation package" and from waht I hear a large amount of workers walking away with 6 & 7 figures amounts plus those close to retirement will get a pension. I also think some foreign entity could buy the refinery, upgrade it and some of the workers will get back a job.

However the thousands of temporary/casual some of whom have been there for decades go home with nothing whatsoever

That's the hard part dey

[hydroep]

Unless the purchasing company is a scrap iron dealer, any investment in the refinery will make its closure unjustified.

They getting severance, that money dwindles.

The problem lies on the other people who depend on their spending to earn income.

With the retrenches in the last couple years, real people struggling to make a dollar on the lowest rungs on the economic ladder. Then u injecting 4000 people into that, in addition to removing the business that was there before.

The previous time the government bought the refinery was to retain jobs. To avoid upheaval.



And then the people would see the refinery open back.




Allyuh play smart with foolishness.
What eh miss yuh eh pass yuh

What if this is part of the plan? If people become desperate, they would be inclined to take anything at less than equiatble terms & conditions just to provide for their families. Additionally couple the consequent castration of the Unions along with competition from immigrant labour and it's easy to see that bargaining power would swing heavily in favour of remaining employers.

Massa back in town...

[zoom rader]

Jay bless PNM they finally on the right track but shutting down useless state enterprises.

Time to sell out Wasa
Get rid of CAL
Then out source the public service

[The_Honourable]

18th July 2018

[nervewrecker]

IMG_9997.JPG

Many incidences of sabotage to make e&p look bad. A lease wants it bad.
Somoene stole almost all the covers from the explosion proof panels at all the " tank batteries ". Its a risk to start the pump motors in that environment to pump the oil.

These covers are heavy no ass and have like 50 bolts around them. Someone has been going through great lengths to cause an oil spill.

Last week a condemned line rupture by the gas station in santa flora. One of these same lease had tapped into the line and been stealing oil. But khan busy saying oh how the lease doing well, makes you wonder how? Kardway did the same thing in the past and iirc lease operators.

[Redman]

That's where the investments come from. No government has 25 billion tt to burn in a oil producing company that produces 40000 barrels of oil per day yet employs over 5000. That is madness.

just to clarify

a refinery does not produce oil. it refines it.

the refinery at pap handles both local crude and foreign crude.

according to the minister (on which he is actually correct) there is a local crude production of 40000 bbl/day in trinmar. t

Trinmar does not employ 5000 workers to produce 40000 bbl/day

the rest of the crude going through the refinery is foreign, to make up a total of 120-130k bbl/day.

so again YES trinmar produces 40000 bbl/day, the refinery produces gasolene, gas oil, diesel and other products on a higher thruput of 120k bbl/day or more. many of the gasolene producing plants like ccr are designed for foreign crudes, since local molo crude is not hgih in gasolene yield.


strange that when they talk about the costs incurred from buying crude, they dont talk about the profit margin from selling refined products.

didnt the newspapers report earlier this year that petrotrin made a profit? i cant seem to find the articel now, but Im sure I remember seeing that.

Trinmar produces an average of 19000 BOPD for 2018, NOT 40k
The country produces on average, 67 k BOPD, of which condensate and Calypso crude are about 10k each.

The reality is that Petrotrin suffered from crappy management, and a inefficient labor structure and no asset integrity.....sounds like all the components are sub par-so a total reset seems logical.

OWTU and evvery one else has begged the last 5 govts to de politicize the decision making at Petrotrin, this action seems anything but politic....certainly it looks bad for the PNM.

Guyana crude is still imported crude-that model is what is not working,also we NEED to import crude to enable the refinery to produce the products in demand.

Looking at the region.....The Arc Light refinery in USVA IMPORTS 100% of its feedstock.

Private sector operations would run these assets and pay taxes as per law...employ who/what they need and keep us in the business.

[sMASH]

The issue is not to keep refining oil, the issue is the economic impact of so many job cuts WHEN the plant is privatised.

Its just like clico, it is too big to let fall.

This decision is the best financial decision, but the worst social decision. The income of possibly 10 000 house holds will be obliterated or significantly hit.



Any restarting of the refinery will make its closure unjustified

[Redman]

Unless the closure is the only way to get the union out.
And if the unions position at the neg table is anywhere close to what the vocalize in public....then it makes sense.

You are using absolute terms......when the truth would be less dramatic.

The truth is that some will be rehired now,some will happily retire with a pension,some will find employment elsewhere, some will be rehired when the refinery starts back....ALL will have their seperation packages.

Any contractor that is sole dependent on petrotrin with all its problems with payment-has alternative financing and/or motives.

So while none of us know for sure....Im thinking 10,000 peoples income being obliterated is dramatic fanfare better left to Ian Alleynes ilk.

[Redman]

The question is...what does every dollar of those 10,000 people's income cost to pay.

Keeping them employed comes at what all in cost?
2,3,4 dollar s per dollar paid?

[tr1ad]

the union has no alternative, yet they want to depend on the " we deserve" mentality; i'm surprised of no offer of holding flat rates for x period or no OT rates applicable for x period if the union was so inclined for mostly all members to remain employed - OTx2 and OTx3 is a big cost... so yes this would be a squeeze tactic; they refuse well badabing... assets available to any private entity... government sits back and collects taxes (probably the best move for them)

closure / change of leadership / excess spending has to happen, but agreed on a social level it will be an issue

[tr1ad]

The truth is that some will be rehired now,some will happily retire with a pension,some will find employment elsewhere, some will be rehired when the refinery starts back....ALL will have their seperation packages.

i've requoted for absolute truth

[sMASH]

petrotrin posted and $86m profit this year with allll that higher than standard wages. it isnt loosing money. it can afford to keep every one there employed, at there current salaries.

the only reason it is being shut down is becaue of the debt it will have to pay for the bonds. when it is shut down, how will those bonds be repaid? are they going to be written off by the issuer?

take those bonds payments out of the equation, and u dont need to shut it down.

[Redman]

Probably they will restructure the debt without the financial drag of the refinery.

[Joshie23]

The truth is that some will be rehired now,some will happily retire with a pension,some will find employment elsewhere, some will be rehired when the refinery starts back....ALL will have their separation packages

i've requoted for absolute truth

I've requoted because there are temporary/casual employees in the mix that won't benefit from such. Then again, they should have seen this coming ent, after all, no one is entitled to anything.

petrotrin posted and $86m profit this year with allll that higher than standard wages. it isnt loosing money. it can afford to keep every one there employed, at there current salaries.

the only reason it is being shut down is becaue of the debt it will have to pay for the bonds. when it is shut down, how will those bonds be repaid? are they going to be written off by the issuer?

take those bonds payments out of the equation, and u dont need to shut it down.

It's hard to neglect those bonds, sMASH, the creditors aren't going to neglect them. It's just funny that Rowley neglected to mention who was primarily responsible for approximately 10 out of the 13 billion dollar debt that the company is straddled with. He went quite back to 1857, in La Brea, but failed to mention and go back to 2007 and 2009, when the then Executive Chairman that sanctioned the loans that apparently evaporated. May he rest in peace along with the company he ultimately failed. Failed to mention his 'close friend' that was part and parcel of the endemic corruption that plagues the company on the E&P side of things, amongst oher things. But hey, it's what's best for the country. Great is the PNM.

[sMASH]

right... so how will those bond payments will be repaid? written off by the issuer?

[Monkey Man]

Once they dont thief out the plant and equipment kamz will make an election promise to re open

[sMASH]

The kick backs to sell out the contracts in there will be too lucrative for a typical politician to not parts up and sell out