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Petrotrin refinery shut down

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby De Dragon » September 26th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Redman wrote:Bharath is being deliberately misleading-if not dishonest.
Asking all these questions-to sound intelligent-while knowing what the reality is.

How many of us had the money when we bought the first house?
Wasnt there a period after the agreement was made,where both sides had to prove up their claims-value and clear title on the sellers side-and money on the buyers side?


Same principles apply here.

Patriotic was formed for the purpose of buying the refinery.
They would have had to show that they were qualified in terms of being able to conclude the offer as they made.

So the fact that its a SPV negates the issue of financials.

The financing is likely contingent on Patriotic winning the bid and then subject to certain conditions being met.


The moratorium -while terribly communicated could be as a result of a limitation of funds-but that doesnt mean its bad.
Its likely that Patriotic could not get the purchas AND the upgrade

For example:
So defer the 700M on the condition that Patriotic does the necessary upgrades-and if unable to settle the 700M when the debt is called-ownership of the refinery would revert to GORTT.

GORTT gets what may be an upgraded refinery.

Or patriotic works-GORTT gets their money taxes and uptick in economic activity.

1.3M of us want this to work-if it does it certainly is better than foreign ownership of the refinery.

You're PNM slant keeps showing in everything you post. OWTU were cited as preferred because they were the only ones to put up money "up front" My Red and Ready colleague, 3 year moratoriums and ten year payment plans on top of massive tax concessions is by no stretch of the imagination "up front"
You really expect to gift one of the country's a prized assets to people with absolutely no experience, and hope they raise 2.1 BILLION dollars PLUS a profit in 10 years on an aging refinery? I hope you put ice in that red PNM Kool Aid.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby De Dragon » September 26th, 2019, 4:22 pm

randolphinshan wrote:
Joshie23 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
MG Man wrote:^^^the ppl who allegedly buss the company with their high wages are now going to run it at a profit....

In B4 Joshie23............


Hoss, I'm home, hugging up someone's daughter, and a man like me, is on the mind of you, another (?)man(?).

Kicks, yes. :lol: :lol:

You're probably still looking for a coping mechanism for that inferiority complex but this ain't it, chief.


Ignore DeDragon pal, it’s in your best interest. While me and u busy gusting out a lady he only have time to maco man.Let him be them so done reach where they going

Technically you are correct because you see, blow is a synonym of gust, and right now it looks like a threesome with you and Joshie23 went awry a la Friends, and you are in fact blowing Joshie23 because both of you realize that both of you are in fact man boolas. No biggie, you have rights now :lol:

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » September 26th, 2019, 7:55 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Some questions. If I sound ignorant it is because I am way out of my element here, so bear with me.
Redman wrote:Bharath is being deliberately misleading-if not dishonest.
Asking all these questions-to sound intelligent-while knowing what the reality is.

How many of us had the money when we bought the first house?
Wasnt there a period after the agreement was made,where both sides had to prove up their claims-value and clear title on the sellers side-and money on the buyers side?Isn't this done before entering into any contract? I'm not aware of a bank giving you a loan or a mortgage and then asking you to prove you are good for it.
But they havent entered into the contract as of yet.Patriotic has to now prove they can conclude the transaction-The bid would have had letters from financiers indicating that they are willing to finance based on the winning bid.And Yes the bank will not give you a loan until they are secured-that 3 month period after the downpayment is where we are at in the transaction


Same principles apply here.

Patriotic was formed for the purpose of buying the refinery.
They would have had to show that they were qualified in terms of being able to conclude the offer as they made.
The problem here is lack of transparency. Are we suddenly to accept the words of politicians without question? Were they really qualified? Were they the best option?
Can you point to any transaction any where in the world where the details you are asking for are made public while the transaction is still ongoing?

So the fact that its a SPV negates the issue of financials.
Please explain. I'm not too familiar with this and I can't see the benefit.
Financials on a company that was formed months ago are irrelevant. The benefit is that a New company has zero legacy issues.This is a common occurrence-It happens daily.
The company was formed in order to be the entity that buys the refinery-therefore no financials can exist.But what possibly is in the companys reach is A)The HR to Manage and run the refinery, and B)a financier that has already said 'if allyuh win I will finance the deal.Thats all that is relevant.SO the logical conclusion is that the OWTU has indicated that they have the necessary things in place to complete the purchase and then run it


The financing is likely contingent on Patriotic winning the bid and then subject to certain conditions being met.
Again, transparency would be great here
I havent said no-but it IS pretty early and at the end of the day we still have to see the OWTU come up to scratch.

The moratorium -while terribly communicated could be as a result of a limitation of funds-but that doesnt mean its bad.
Its likely that Patriotic could not get the purchas AND the upgradeWhat do you mean "not" get the purchase"? Isn't the deal already done?
[color=#008000]Sorry-typo. I think that the financier is secured by the refinery value. So its probably that Patriotic cannot get 700M AND the money to upgrade and operate.The GORTT probably has accommodated them in that regard



"THE Oilfield Workers Trade Union (OWTU) has won the bid for the Pointe-a-Pierre refinery with a US$700 million offer which Government has accepted, Finance Minister Colm Imbert announced this afternoon."[/color]

Yep-nothing about when :D

For example:
So defer the 700M on the condition that Patriotic does the necessary upgrades-and if unable to settle the 700M when the debt is called-ownership of the refinery would revert to GORTT.[color=#0040FF]After that whole Sandals fiasco, I will not be surprised if there is a "forgiveness" clause. The responsibility is on them to show that this move is good for the country. They have been trying to keep everything under wraps. Why?

Its mid transaction in what was a competitive/evaluation process up until last week.It unrealistic to expect all that info to be public

GORTT gets what may be an upgraded refinery.When last have we (the country) ever come out on top in a major deal? All I could say is we need to see the contract documents
What contract? There was an acceptance of a bid subject to the winner proving up their side.

Or patriotic works-GORTT gets their money taxes and uptick in economic activity.

1.3M of us want this to work-if it does it certainly is better than foreign ownership of the refinery.
Last edited by Redman on September 27th, 2019, 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby The_Honourable » September 26th, 2019, 8:04 pm

Roget: Investors Ready To Save Petrotrin


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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » September 26th, 2019, 8:05 pm

I think its worth the 700M to see Roget eat 20 years of vomit.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Rovin » September 27th, 2019, 11:15 am

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

Darryn Dinesh Boodan
· 5 hrs ·

How to launder money, for Dummies

Are you looking for a way to boost your income or perhaps bypass international sanctions? Do you need extra cash for a new car? Or a great family vacation? Or maybe just to pay the armed mercenaries you depend on to prop up your repressive regime? Well from the makers of Selling fake oi for dummies, and Chinese housing contract for dummies comes ‘How to launder Money for Dummies ’. There are no classes to attend or books to buy. All you need to get started is a passion, a will to succeed and of course an oil refinery.

Step 1. Find an oil refinery

Laundering money requires the basic illusion that your business can make a profit. This immediately rules out things in T&T like Calypso tents, TTT, and preventative flood plans. Oil, on the other hand, is perfect. With its labyrinthine accounting and perception of wealth, oil refineries are beloved by gangsters across the globe. looking to scrub their dollars clean.

According to Transparency International, over 90% of the extractive industries are based in developing countries. These countries have weak to no oversight making them ideal spots for embezzlement and bribery.

In recent times Oil refineries in Sri Lanka, Nigeria, Brazil, Russia, and the Caribbean have been either investigated for or been found guilty of money laundering. If you look hard enough you’re bound to find a shady refinery in a nice shady spot somewhere.

Step 2. Don’t own an oil refinery? Be an investor.

Firstly are you sure you don’t have an oil refinery? Did you check under your bed or in your spare cupboard? You might be surprised to learn that people are practically giving away oil refineries these days. But even still, don’t sweat it. You don’t need to own a refinery you just need to create a joint venture with one.

In their 2018 paper entitled ‘Natural resources and Money laundering” authors David Muhlemann and Stefan Mbiyavanga explain how this occurs.
“A common modus operandi in such deals is for a public official to...forcefully acquire control” over an asset and the commodity it produces”, write Muhlemann and Mbiyavanga. This enables them to further sell the assets and commodities to “middlemen and Investors and the earnings misappropriated”.

And remember if journalists ask you about the details-just accuse them of being a UNC supporter.

Step 3-Make a joint venture

In recent times Venezuelan state-run oil company Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) -the oil company that produces no oil-has struck may joint ventures with refineries across the Caribbean. These included deals with Albanisa in Nicaragua and a now-defunct deal with PetroJam in Jamaica.

In May of this year, a report by consultants Douglas Farah and Caitlyn Yates found that Albanisa was a slush fund for the Nicaraguan dictator Daniel Ortega. As well as a front by which PDVSA used to launder narcotics money.

Last December Jamaica's Auditor General reported that PetroJam in five years used 1.5 Millions barrels of Oil valued at 12.8 Billion. But half of those 1.5 Million barrels could not be accounted for.

So if you’re friends with nitwits in the Caribbean who also have an Oil refinery, half the work is done!

Step 4. Get a Swiss-based trader.

It’s easy to think the only things Switzerland are good for is chocolate and Tennis players. But it’s also a major hub for commodities trading. In the same report by David Muhlemann and Stefan Mbiyavanga, lies an interesting fact; no Swiss trader has even been found guilty of money laundering. “Also,” write the authors, “ the Swiss government has not been willing to take progressive steps to adequately supervise and regulate the natural resource trade.”

How much of an endorsement do you need?

Though it should be noted that in 2018 Swissf banker Matthias Krull, was sentenced to 10 years in prison for his role in a money-laundering scheme linked to PDVSA.

But here’s where Step 4 comes in.

Step 5-Find useful idiots

The term “useful idiots'' refers to people who unwittingly repeat socialist propaganda, once it attacks “imperialism”. Specifically, people who teach at the UWI.

As former Cuban dictator Fidel Castro will tell you, It ‘s easier to commit crimes in the Caribbean if you can also paint yourself as a victim of “western Imperialism”. Hence why no UWI intellectual speaks to the well-documented journalism exposing the links between Castro and drug trafficking. Or have asked for transparency on how Petrocaribe money was spent by CARICOM governments, given that Haitians are currently rioting over that.

Remember if anyone asks to see your accounts, just say “financial auditing is a tool of the oppressor!

So get cracking. That blood money won’t launder itself!

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby K_J_R » September 27th, 2019, 2:57 pm

selling to the owtu was an excellent move.

it will help get votes since the govt appears to care about giving back d ppl wuk.

if the refinery effort fails in the years to come, the govt can just blame mismanagement on owtu and roget.

if gasoline price goes up, blame the owtu and roget for causing that and for holding the country to ransom.

its a win win for the govt. anbd roget is the fall guy.

unless he knows that and happens to run for a senatorship position in 2020/2021.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby hydroep » September 28th, 2019, 3:41 am

Carolyn: Govt desperate over refinery
Sean Douglas

THE Government is desperate to restart the mothballed refinery at Pointe-a-Pierre because they are unable to find US$20 million per month to pay for the import of gasoline and other refined products by Paria Fuel Trading Company, alleged former energy minister Carolyn Seepersad-Bachan, in a telephone interview with Newsday yesterday.

She said the Government had previously ignored her warnings not shut the refinery, even as it is now likely to reopen.

“We told them there would be a net outflow of foreign exchange but they told me I don’t know what I’m talking about. But they now realise the negative effect.” The Congress of the People (COP) leader said the refinery closure has so far cost the country by way of lost employment and drop in income tax and national insurance deductions formerly collected from workers.

“And you may not get back your markets especially in the region.” she warned. “That is why they got no real bids.”

Seepersad-Bachan lamented that the Government had discontinued its arbitration proceedings over Petrotrin’s US$350 million Ultra Low Sulphur Project. She said while they had a good chance to recoup US$250 million from Samsung, they had instead settled for just $20 million.

Seepersad-Bachan also queried the process by which the OWTU was chosen as preferred bidder on the refinery.

“I don’t understand how this process was conducted. Cabinet can’t be altering the terms of acceptance.”

She said Cabinet cannot get involved in procurement, evaluation of bids and sale of assets, but must accept recommendations from the evaluation committee of technocrats.

Seepersad-Bachan said the refinery must be now re-opened as soon as possible. She hoped it would then bring TT regional markets, foreign exchange and jobs including those created by service contractors. Seepersad-Bachan said Imbert had once likened the refinery to an old car that keeps shutting down, but instead he should say why a relatively new refinery had got no bids.

Newsday was unable to contact either Energy Minister Franklin Khan or Finance Minister Colm Imbert for a response.


https://newsday.co.tt/2019/09/28/carolyn-govt-desperate-over-refinery/

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby vaiostation » September 28th, 2019, 6:47 am

Nice to see Carolyn, Vasant and de rest of these washed up politicians crawling out of their hole to get some attention before election, like if any ah them really care about de refinery or the workers...

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » September 28th, 2019, 7:01 am

Any one who was in govt before should really stfu

The unions grip on operations was as a result of successive govts pandering to unions and incremental concessions given in order to calm political climates.
It was never about the Co.

Political interference at the top was a constant...as was politically connected people given sweet heart deals.

State run means that.
STATE run.

https://www.pemex.com/acerca/plan-de-ne ... ex2017.pdf

As a simple demonstration-look at PEMEX-which was in the same mess (ok probably still is) -they present and publish a policy/plan and set goals and targets.

Never happen in TnT

Seepersad Bachan was Minister of Energy at a time when the govt was cashed up and had the ability to begin a process of improvement.

But that never happen-its easier to pick he carcass for political mileage.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby De Dragon » September 28th, 2019, 7:27 am

Redman wrote:Any one who was in govt before should really stfu

The unions grip on operations was as a result of successive govts pandering to unions and incremental concessions given in order to calm political climates.
It was never about the Co.

Political interference at the top was a constant...as was politically connected people given sweet heart deals.

State run means that.
STATE run.

https://www.pemex.com/acerca/plan-de-ne ... ex2017.pdf

As a simple demonstration-look at PEMEX-which was in the same mess (ok probably still is) -they present and publish a policy/plan and set goals and targets.

Never happen in TnT

Seepersad Bachan was Minister of Energy at a time when the govt was cashed up and had the ability to begin a process of improvement.

But that never happen-its easier to pick he carcass for political mileage.

So hindsight and/or ineffective management when you were in charge prevents you from having and voicing an opinion? Does it lessen what is the foolishness of awarding a billion dollar, critical asset to people who've never even managed as much as a sno-cone cart before?

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » September 28th, 2019, 9:04 am

Ok
So whom among the 3 candidates would you have picked?
And why?
And since the union is yet to disclose who the partnered within terms of management and financing...how are you in a position to judge?

The statement in parliament clearly states that the terms allowed partnerships and are kosher.

So all these talking heads KNOW they asking questions that are clearly red herrings ....they KNOW better .

Does it lessen what is the foolishness of awarding a billion dollar, critical asset to people who've never even managed as much as a sno-cone cart before?


You should know better.
Well maybe not.

Why did who ever you work for hire you?
Did they possess your skillset already?
What do they do when they need a lawyer?
Get one?Hire one put one on retainer

What does every other company in the world do when they need a skill set?
The acquire it.

What did every government do when they came into power?
They replaced the management and whoever with their people.

What did gillette have to offer as Chair-or that reprobate Gosine as CEO?

So what you call foolishness is the basis for all hiring/outsourcing/contracting/subcontracting/entrepreneurship/innovation in the world-Corporate entities acquiring the most important resource-the one they dont have.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby kstt » September 28th, 2019, 5:42 pm

OWTU has shown us that all that prayers worked.

Give dem rope let dem hang themself.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby matr1x » September 28th, 2019, 5:48 pm

Anyone wants to talk about the 15mil. That was paid to the unions?


Or the agreement between heritage and owtu?

Or colm's little interest.

Just leaving in out there...

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Pointman-IA » September 28th, 2019, 9:35 pm

Candle going to cost more than the funeral.

Would be interesting to hear who are going to be the Senior Management personnel attached to Patriotic.

With the damage already done, how is Patriotic going to become a foreign exchange earner for this twin island state, with a refinery that is overloaded in a financial and operational crisis?

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby De Dragon » September 28th, 2019, 9:52 pm

Redman wrote:Ok
So whom among the 3 candidates would you have picked?
And why?
And since the union is yet to disclose who the partnered within terms of management and financing...how are you in a position to judge?

The statement in parliament clearly states that the terms allowed partnerships and are kosher.

So all these talking heads KNOW they asking questions that are clearly red herrings ....they KNOW better .

Does it lessen what is the foolishness of awarding a billion dollar, critical asset to people who've never even managed as much as a sno-cone cart before?


You should know better.
Well maybe not.

Why did who ever you work for hire you?
Did they possess your skillset already?
What do they do when they need a lawyer?
Get one?Hire one put one on retainer

What does every other company in the world do when they need a skill set?
The acquire it.

What did every government do when they came into power?
They replaced the management and whoever with their people.

What did gillette have to offer as Chair-or that reprobate Gosine as CEO?

So what you call foolishness is the basis for all hiring/outsourcing/contracting/subcontracting/entrepreneurship/innovation in the world-Corporate entities acquiring the most important resource-the one they dont have.

Don't be foolish and show it Red Kamla Bag. :?
If you want walls painted a basic one colour any neighbourhood Joe will suffice, but if you want walls built, an experienced mason whose work you, or someone can vouch for is the smart option. Tell me honestly, if someone came to you and said "I never built a wall in my life" would you hire them to do your walls? The PNM deep in you would say yes, skillset, blah blah blah, sheit, sheit, because once again, you are trying to paint this incompetent and highly dubious decision in a positive light because it is a PNM Cabinet decision.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby De Dragon » September 28th, 2019, 9:53 pm

Redman wrote:Ok
So whom among the 3 candidates would you have picked?
And why?
And since the union is yet to disclose who the partnered within terms of management and financing...how are you in a position to judge?

The statement in parliament clearly states that the terms allowed partnerships and are kosher.

So all these talking heads KNOW they asking questions that are clearly red herrings ....they KNOW better .

Does it lessen what is the foolishness of awarding a billion dollar, critical asset to people who've never even managed as much as a sno-cone cart before?


You should know better.
Well maybe not.

Why did who ever you work for hire you?
Did they possess your skillset already?
What do they do when they need a lawyer?
Get one?Hire one put one on retainer

What does every other company in the world do when they need a skill set?
The acquire it.

What did every government do when they came into power?
They replaced the management and whoever with their people.

What did gillette have to offer as Chair-or that reprobate Gosine as CEO?

So what you call foolishness is the basis for all hiring/outsourcing/contracting/subcontracting/entrepreneurship/innovation in the world-Corporate entities acquiring the most important resource-the one they dont have.

Don't be foolish and show it Red Kamla Bag. :?
If you want walls painted a basic one colour any neighbourhood Joe will suffice, but if you want walls built, an experienced mason whose work you, or someone can vouch for is the smart option. Tell me honestly, if someone came to you and said "I never built a wall in my life" would you hire them to do your walls? The PNM deep in you would say yes, skillset, blah blah blah, sheit, sheit, because once again, you are trying to paint this incompetent and highly dubious decision in a positive light because it is a PNM Cabinet decision.
A refinery is not an OJT project.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby The_Honourable » September 29th, 2019, 1:39 am

Pleasant Good Day to All,

In May 2014, the OWTU led by Mr. Ancil Roget introduced T&T to a man by the name of Mike Singh, and presented him as a representative of Greenpeace International who was here to investigate the effects of the La Brea oil spill and report back to Mr. Kumi Naidoo. Upon contacting the head office of Greenpeace for confirmation of Mike Singh's credentials, I was duly informed by their staff that "Mike Singh is not, and never has been, a Greenpeace employee, and does not represent Greenpeace in any capacity." Upon learning of this, Mr. Roget immediately dismissed the information, doubling down on the claims made by Mr. Singh stating, "we (OWTU) are satisfied in terms of his prior engagements on behalf of that international organisation (Greenpeace International)”. Of course, after learning that attorneys for Greenpeace were looking into the issue, Mr. Singh promptly exited the country, never to be heard from again.

I am bringing this back up today because, as the OWTU looks to close the deal with the government in purchasing the Pointe-a-Pierre oil refinery it appears that the Mike Singh debacle has not dissuaded them from conducting business with unproven and questionable foreign entities. And there are not many persons whom I have encountered that I would consider more questionable or unproven than Mr. Morad Kara.

Morad Kara is a Middle Eastern businessman currently living in the UK, and mostly deals in the trade of commodities and wholesale goods. Mr. Kara owns several businesses, the majority of which are currently dormant, with the exception being MAK England Ltd. These companies include 'MAK Health Ltd', 'MAK Wool Ltd', and 'Ardec of Beckenham Ltd', all of which are dormant.

Now as many of you would be aware, the OWTU signed a MOU last year with "MAK ENGLAND LLC", which Mr. Kara is claiming is a separate entity to MAK England Ltd. Mr. Kara has not provided any evidence as to the existence of this LLC however, and a search of company registries throughout the USA is proving this to be false. That being said, it should also be noted that the address provided for "MAK England LLC" in the US actually houses a company named "Amsell Group Limited" which is in fact owned by Mr. Kara, but whose accounts also lay dormant.

I have been in contact with Mr. Kara for several days now in an attempt to divine information on his company and his track record in the field of petroleum marketing. Unfortunately, Mr. Kara has cited the non-disclosure agreement signed with the OWTU in refusing to provide any answers, despite the fact that I only asked for general information. As such, the information I am about to provide was all collected through public company registries, and thankfully has been confirmed to be accurate by Mr. Kara.

At the end of 2018, MAK England Ltd. had £54.963 in tangible assets and £90,755 in liquid assets. As a company that has been mostly dormant over the past decade however, their revenue never crossed £50,000 in a calendar year. Now you might be wondering how a company with such limited capital and resources, or one with so very few clients and revenue, came to attract the OWTU as partners for such a large acquisition as the Pointe-a-Pierre oil refinery. Enter Odessa Major Organization Ltd.

Many might not be aware of Odessa Major, but it is a financial institution which has been operating quietly in Trinidad and Tobago since 2004. Odessa Major is managed by a group of investors from Florida, with its headquarters located in New York City, and their local office in Golconda, San Fernando. Since commencing operations in T&T, their services have been geared towards providing loans and capital investments for businesses including both TSTT and Digicel as well as providing used car loans for persons living and working in south Trinidad, including many former employees of Petrotrin.

Before MAK England was converted into an energy based company, its main trade was tactical equipment and gear to police and military organizations. In the seven years that it has been engaged in the petrochemical sector however, the acquisition of the Pointe-a-Pierre oil refinery will be its first major project. Being a preferred client of Odessa Major however, MAK England was able to use this contact to negotiate the collaboration with the OWTU, despite having no proven track record in the field. And when you combine the limited experience and capabilities of both the OWTU and MAK England in managing such a massive endeavor, you then begin to foresee the disaster that might occur at the refinery further down the road.

When it was first announced that the OWTU would be given a three year moratorium followed by a ten year period in which they would be able to make payments for the purchase of the Pointe-a-Pierre oil refinery, it was noted by many of the more fiscally astute that this appeared to be a measure taken by the government to hedge their bets.

From Ravi Balgobin Maharaj.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » September 29th, 2019, 4:32 am

De Dragon wrote:
Redman wrote:Ok
So whom among the 3 candidates would you have picked?
And why?
And since the union is yet to disclose who the partnered within terms of management and financing...how are you in a position to judge?

The statement in parliament clearly states that the terms allowed partnerships and are kosher.

So all these talking heads KNOW they asking questions that are clearly red herrings ....they KNOW better .

Does it lessen what is the foolishness of awarding a billion dollar, critical asset to people who've never even managed as much as a sno-cone cart before?


You should know better.
Well maybe not.

Why did who ever you work for hire you?
Did they possess your skillset already?
What do they do when they need a lawyer?
Get one?Hire one put one on retainer

What does every other company in the world do when they need a skill set?
The acquire it.

What did every government do when they came into power?
They replaced the management and whoever with their people.

What did gillette have to offer as Chair-or that reprobate Gosine as CEO?

So what you call foolishness is the basis for all hiring/outsourcing/contracting/subcontracting/entrepreneurship/innovation in the world-Corporate entities acquiring the most important resource-the one they dont have.

Don't be foolish and show it Red Kamla Bag. :?
If you want walls painted a basic one colour any neighbourhood Joe will suffice, but if you want walls built, an experienced mason whose work you, or someone can vouch for is the smart option. Tell me honestly, if someone came to you and said "I never built a wall in my life" would you hire them to do your walls? The PNM deep in you would say yes, skillset, blah blah blah, sheit, sheit, because once again, you are trying to paint this incompetent and highly dubious decision in a positive light because it is a PNM Cabinet decision.
A refinery is not an OJT project.


So if not OWTU which of the three finalist would you have selected.
And why?

Thereare experienced people out there....where did Barden come from?
How did NiQuan get to where they are today?


Your analogy is correct...it's possible that the OWTU can hire experienced people.

Isn't that what this month is for...for them to prove up their package?

You have not offered anything that all the bidders would not have dealt with long ago, and in the absence of information you pelting sheeit,also nothing new.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby De Dragon » September 29th, 2019, 6:06 am

Redman wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
Redman wrote:Ok
So whom among the 3 candidates would you have picked?
And why?
And since the union is yet to disclose who the partnered within terms of management and financing...how are you in a position to judge?

The statement in parliament clearly states that the terms allowed partnerships and are kosher.

So all these talking heads KNOW they asking questions that are clearly red herrings ....they KNOW better .

Does it lessen what is the foolishness of awarding a billion dollar, critical asset to people who've never even managed as much as a sno-cone cart before?


You should know better.
Well maybe not.

Why did who ever you work for hire you?
Did they possess your skillset already?
What do they do when they need a lawyer?
Get one?Hire one put one on retainer

What does every other company in the world do when they need a skill set?
The acquire it.

What did every government do when they came into power?
They replaced the management and whoever with their people.

What did gillette have to offer as Chair-or that reprobate Gosine as CEO?

So what you call foolishness is the basis for all hiring/outsourcing/contracting/subcontracting/entrepreneurship/innovation in the world-Corporate entities acquiring the most important resource-the one they dont have.

Don't be foolish and show it Red Kamla Bag. :?
If you want walls painted a basic one colour any neighbourhood Joe will suffice, but if you want walls built, an experienced mason whose work you, or someone can vouch for is the smart option. Tell me honestly, if someone came to you and said "I never built a wall in my life" would you hire them to do your walls? The PNM deep in you would say yes, skillset, blah blah blah, sheit, sheit, because once again, you are trying to paint this incompetent and highly dubious decision in a positive light because it is a PNM Cabinet decision.
A refinery is not an OJT project.


So if not OWTU which of the three finalist would you have selected.
And why?

Thereare experienced people out there....where did Barden come from?
How did NiQuan get to where they are today?


Your analogy is correct...it's possible that the OWTU can hire experienced people.

Isn't that what this month is for...for them to prove up their package?

You have not offered anything that all the bidders would not have dealt with long ago, and in the absence of information you pelting sheeit,also nothing new.

NiQuan is your example, really? A PNM con man who was a lobbyist for Patos and JUHN Scarfy and the PNM gets a sweetheart deal from his cronies, and ends up with a plant that he got for peanuts? Made all the more ridiculous because the very existence of NiQuan was through the horrendous c*ck up that was Malcolm Jones? Facking really? To summarize so that even you understand. PNM corruption brought about WGTL which cost us BILLIONS, PNM corruption resulted in Arse Wari then gifting Malcolm Jones total exoneration for said catastrophe. PNM corruption further ensures that the feeding frenzy continues with one of their cronies now running NiQuan.
PT is WGTL X 10, and will end up the very same way, because OWTU simply doesn't have the experience to even know what is needed to turn around PT. That kind of experience mind you, is very difficult to find locally, IF you want it.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » September 29th, 2019, 7:09 am

If not the OWTU then which of the 3 bidders would you have chosen...and why?

NiQuan hired what they needed, brought in who and what they needed.
Barden,he came with experience.
Both of these are analogous of what we are discussing.

Who said locally.
Companies hire world wide.
Intel,Exxon,Tesla,Massy Tesco,MSFT,Yahoo all hire what they need.
From wherever they find it.

The bidders were all allowed to create partnerships in the instance where they won to ensure that they have what is needed....its public since last year that the union is looking outside for what it needs.
Hence the month to prove up.

Again you ranting without any thing new.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby De Dragon » September 29th, 2019, 7:51 am

Redman wrote:If not the OWTU then which of the 3 bidders would you have chosen...and why?

NiQuan hired what they needed, brought in who and what they needed.
Barden,he came with experience.
Both of these are analogous of what we are discussing.

Who said locally.
Companies hire world wide.
Intel,Exxon,Tesla,Massy Tesco,MSFT,Yahoo all hire what they need.
From wherever they find it.

The bidders were all allowed to create partnerships in the instance where they won to ensure that they have what is needed....its public since last year that the union is looking outside for what it needs.
Hence the month to prove up.

Again you ranting without any thing new.

When you held up NiQuan as an example, I lost what little faith I had in you. You simply do not know how large chemical facilities have to be managed to be viable. Learn from people who are in the industry, and not be an obstinate moron for once. The OWTU and Governments of T&T have never been willing to do what is required, namely run it like an actual business. Hence we have stellar performers like ISCOTT, PT and any State run industry :roll:
Any company NOT aligned to, or beholden to any entity locally would have been my choice, because those companies tend to view 700 million as a significant capital expenditure, and would have strategic plans to not only recoup their investment, but make a profit. Not everyone views BILLIONS of dollars lost because of shoddy management and governmental interference as "small ting" like the PNM did with PT. These companies tend to be accountable to someone, even the CEO, Chairman, unlike our usual Malcolm Joneses and Vasant Bharaths.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby sMASH » September 29th, 2019, 8:02 am

the 'accountability' part is what lacking in the decisions. if ah man know he could get jam if the project dont pan out, or even goes over budget, it could be a highway or a road sign, he making sure he do a good job within time and budget.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » September 29th, 2019, 8:54 am

De Dragon wrote:
Redman wrote:If not the OWTU then which of the 3 bidders would you have chosen...and why?

NiQuan hired what they needed, brought in who and what they needed.
Barden,he came with experience.
Both of these are analogous of what we are discussing.

Who said locally.
Companies hire world wide.
Intel,Exxon,Tesla,Massy Tesco,MSFT,Yahoo all hire what they need.
From wherever they find it.

The bidders were all allowed to create partnerships in the instance where they won to ensure that they have what is needed....its public since last year that the union is looking outside for what it needs.
Hence the month to prove up.

Again you ranting without any thing new.

When you held up NiQuan as an example, I lost what little faith I had in you. You simply do not know how large chemical facilities have to be managed to be viable. Learn from people who are in the industry, and not be an obstinate moron for once. The OWTU and Governments of T&T have never been willing to do what is required, namely run it like an actual business. Hence we have stellar performers like ISCOTT, PT and any State run industry :roll:
Any company NOT aligned to, or beholden to any entity locally would have been my choice, because those companies tend to view 700 million as a significant capital expenditure, and would have strategic plans to not only recoup their investment, but make a profit. Not everyone views BILLIONS of dollars lost because of shoddy management and governmental interference as "small ting" like the PNM did with PT. These companies tend to be accountable to someone, even the CEO, Chairman, unlike our usual Malcolm Joneses and Vasant Bharaths.


You and your faith remain irrelevant.
The simple fact that you throwing the complexity of the refinery out as if its an unknown factor, is laughable.
Its been complex for the last 100 years.
For all its faults OWTU would have an idea-and again-the original bidding documents made it clear-alliances and partnerships are allowed.

"People in the industry"- as if like yourself they dont have their own bias-based on myopic political crap.

There are people in the industry available for hire.
All over the world.
Happy to come here and work.
All within reach of the eventual winner.

Deal with facts.
Fact is WE DONT KNOW who the OWTU will partner with in order to close the deal.
They have said they are in partnership with an foreign entity
They have said the financing is Equity/Debt
They have said these things repeatedly.

So their package will LIKELY include a management company coming in to run the shop -this is probably the equity component-no repayment and 100% risk in terms of failure.These are also the people that will have the missing expertise that you keep referring to as if it only exist locally.

There would also be a financier-the debt side-who in this global environment feels its a good bet.There are many pools of capital that will look at this as a great deal. It very well might be.

Both of these would have looked at the history and the condition of the refinery made professional assessments and come to a decision.
(Incidentally -this likely exactly the same way the other 2 bidders planned to do it.)

Both of these entities would-by having amassed the capital and ability to execute probably be the ones who HAVE done this type of thing while 'people in the industry' like yourself keep saying it cant be done.

So if it is we see these guys come forward under the Patriotic name-theirs is a more informed,material and relevant opinion, than these 'people' in the industry' that you convey your faith in.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby airuma » September 29th, 2019, 9:23 pm

Questions:
1. Can the OWTU/ Patriotic be both the employers and bargaining body for the refinery workers legally?
2. What happens if Patriotic makes things worse with the refinery and reduce the value of it further for the period of the moratorium?
3. IF and a very big IF, there is a change of government next year, can the contract with Patriotic be renegotiated or even cancelled?

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby The_Honourable » September 30th, 2019, 3:34 pm

airuma wrote:Questions:
1. Can the OWTU/ Patriotic be both the employers and bargaining body for the refinery workers legally?
2. What happens if Patriotic makes things worse with the refinery and reduce the value of it further for the period of the moratorium?
3. IF and a very big IF, there is a change of government next year, can the contract with Patriotic be renegotiated or even cancelled?


1. Conflict for sure since management will be the company "Patriotic" and the bargaining body will be the OWTU. It will be funny and ironic if cases reach the industrial court.

2. More than likely a faceoff in court, especially if the government changes. The details of the deal hasn't been set in stone yet so hopefully that question will be answered.

3. It can be renegotiated if both sides agree to it. If not, it stands unless OWTU/Patriotic fail in one or more of the clauses in the agreement where the government can then step in and terminate.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » October 1st, 2019, 7:24 am

I believe that the union will have to confront the issues from the POV they should have adopted 30 years ago.
But it remains to be seen if Patriotic will become to the union what the state enterprises are to the PIP.

it will be much harder-external auditors(real auditors-not like chanka an dem)

hat said they are vocalizing commitment to that not happening

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby rspann » October 1st, 2019, 7:35 am

You mean that if they allowed it to run efficiently and without all the problems they caused for the last 30 yrs while they were the union? If they want it to succeed, they have to change their attitude first. Now they have to drop the worker /victim attitude and adopt an owner/employer attitude.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Dizzy28 » October 1st, 2019, 9:14 am

Redman wrote:I believe that the union will have to confront the issues from the POV they should have adopted 30 years ago.
But it remains to be seen if Patriotic will become to the union what the state enterprises are to the PIP.

it will be much harder-external auditors(real auditors-not like chanka an dem)

hat said they are vocalizing commitment to that not happening


What is a real auditor?

Just yesterday I was was reading up on tax inverisons in the US and saw where PWC was ordered to pay a fine for their involvement in the TYCO case back in 2002. A fine of US$225m for their negligence.

In Trinidad even the big 4 do as you pay them to do and not what should happen under GAAP

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » October 1st, 2019, 9:19 am

rspann wrote:You mean that if they allowed it to run efficiently and without all the problems they caused for the last 30 yrs while they were the union? If they want it to succeed, they have to change their attitude first. Now they have to drop the worker /victim attitude and adopt an owner/employer attitude.


Well they blamed 1)Govt interference 2)Bad Management

Govt blamed 1)The union 2)The Management

So it seems we have a consensus as to the 3 main problems here:

1)The union
2)The Management
3) The govt.

That said the Union is the only one of the 'problems' that came up with a bid.

So yeah they have to adapt and then adopt the new approach.

I dont thinkl it will be a problem IF IF IF IF they structure the transaction,the operations and then their exit strategies properly.

Contextualize the size of operation-20B TTD per year(2017 financials claimed 4.5 for the quarter)

At the point where the business starts to spin off cash-the shareholding value/dividends/ financing arrangements/ trading arrangements are all areas where value can be extracted. Legitimately and legally.

With an IPO at the end of it-it should be the largest IPO in our history and the most relevant to our economy.

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