Petrotrin refinery shut down

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

Didn't they explain the 45k though?

Total monthly remuneration / total employee count.

Just because you are getting less than 45k doesnt mean the average is incorrect. That just means somebody higher up the org chart is making the difference.

The fact that many people do not understand the difference between median and mean (average) which is common entrace math is quite scary.

And that is where the graph get skewed.

Statistics is such a lovely topic, especially when one remembers the distribution.

It seems that the personnel under the PRIVATE PAYROLL category and the EXCLUSIVE category are making the runs in the top order.

I'm buying your drinks as well, Pointman. It's hilarious that some people think a politician cares about them enough to tell them the truth, but I guess it matters not, because at the end of the day, party cards trump reality. 'They' explained the $45k, so it must be right and honest. Yes, Common Entrance Mathematics tells you about mean, median and mode. But higher level Statistics will explain why these figures aren't always the most reliable.

Funny enough, he hasn't responded to this though..

Doesn't Petrotrin borrow money from the Government every month to meet their op ex?

Then won't that same money be used to purchase the 850m debt?

Once the refinery is running in the red, this will never make sense. It has to make $1 profit before talk of refinancing.

Interesting point. Isn't it true that around 10 out of the 13 billion dollars debt is as a result of the two loans that were taken for projects that never managed to come off the ground? Was anyone even made to answer for the mismanaged funds? People ask why the OWTU didn't flex muscles for those issues, hell even I asked it, but on the flip side; why didn't us as the public clamour for the heads of those responsible for putting the money in front of a fan, the same way we're now clamouring for Petrotrin to be closed down and workers sent home?? Taxpayers dollars weren't being affected then??

But now, Rowley says 'Close it down, it's best for the economy. Them boys overpaid and because of them, we can't get proper hospitals, roads, schools, national security, etc.' We're finding money for the Curepe Overpass, ent? We found money for the highway extension in the East, ent? We found money, somehow, to pressure wash the BL Stadium, ent? Yes, magnitude is important, but it's funny how that works, isn't it? We already have a set of PC*and PD* vehicles, immobile and damaged beyond repair, in front of/behind various police stations, because of reckless driving and what have you, but the same 'deprived' Nat. Sec. ministry, just purchased more vehicles. I guess Rowley is the TTPS' godfather, so it wasn't taxpayers money that paid for those vehicles..oh..wait..sheit..funny how that works, isn't it? Without even so much as an honourable mention to his deceased associate, Malcolm Jones or better yet, his still alive 'good friend', the owner of A&V Drilling, he's closing it down, because it's best for the country...funny how that works, isn't it??..

Why didn't the OWTU shut down the WGTL, ULSD, Admin projects before they became a money sink?

Regular taxpayers could only vote once every 5 years. OWTU could have stepped in anytime. It seems the only time OWTU bares its teeth is for a pay raise.

If you review historical information, the OWTU had in fact indicated to the company and Govt at the time that the projects were exceeding the projected costs.

I don't recall OWTU downing tools or marching in POS threatening to shut down the country to stop these failing projects?

The only do that for a pay raise.

Accept the fact that the OWTU failed their members and the country.

Not sayin OWTU is without its issues but the OWTU is a very convenient scapegoat. No one asks for accountability for major bad decisions. I don’t use major lightly either. Decisions that had zero input from the OWTU but people want them strike when they tried to talk. If they tried to strike you would change your tune to oh why they striking for everything so. Goalposts will be moved.

[teems1]

Didn't they explain the 45k though?

Total monthly remuneration / total employee count.

Just because you are getting less than 45k doesnt mean the average is incorrect. That just means somebody higher up the org chart is making the difference.

The fact that many people do not understand the difference between median and mean (average) which is common entrace math is quite scary.

And that is where the graph get skewed.

Statistics is such a lovely topic, especially when one remembers the distribution.

It seems that the personnel under the PRIVATE PAYROLL category and the EXCLUSIVE category are making the runs in the top order.

Statistics could be utilized to skew public opinion.

However that is mostly done via polls and sample sizes.

A simple factual figure of total monthly payroll / total number employees leaves no wiggle room for interpretation.

If the value of 45k is incorrect then please present the correct value.

Did the decision makers showed the methodology employed to arrive at the figure?

Similar type of strategy was used when the price at the pump for premium unleaded fuel was increased. It was claimed that only a small percentage of vehicles rely on premium unleaded fuel.

It was said many times.

Monthly payroll / number employees.

If you know these values to be false then please provide the correct values.

Simply saying it is incorrect without providing evidence doesn't help the worker's argument and continue to lose any little public sympathy.

[The_Honourable]

Sunity Maharaj brings logic to the petrotrin issue

[teems1]

Didn't they explain the 45k though?

Total monthly remuneration / total employee count.

Just because you are getting less than 45k doesnt mean the average is incorrect. That just means somebody higher up the org chart is making the difference.

The fact that many people do not understand the difference between median and mean (average) which is common entrace math is quite scary.

And that is where the graph get skewed.

Statistics is such a lovely topic, especially when one remembers the distribution.

It seems that the personnel under the PRIVATE PAYROLL category and the EXCLUSIVE category are making the runs in the top order.

I'm buying your drinks as well, Pointman. It's hilarious that some people think a politician cares about them enough to tell them the truth, but I guess it matters not, because at the end of the day, party cards trump reality. 'They' explained the $45k, so it must be right and honest. Yes, Common Entrance Mathematics tells you about mean, median and mode. But higher level Statistics will explain why these figures aren't always the most reliable.

Funny enough, he hasn't responded to this though..

Doesn't Petrotrin borrow money from the Government every month to meet their op ex?

Then won't that same money be used to purchase the 850m debt?

Once the refinery is running in the red, this will never make sense. It has to make $1 profit before talk of refinancing.

Interesting point. Isn't it true that around 10 out of the 13 billion dollars debt is as a result of the two loans that were taken for projects that never managed to come off the ground? Was anyone even made to answer for the mismanaged funds? People ask why the OWTU didn't flex muscles for those issues, hell even I asked it, but on the flip side; why didn't us as the public clamour for the heads of those responsible for putting the money in front of a fan, the same way we're now clamouring for Petrotrin to be closed down and workers sent home?? Taxpayers dollars weren't being affected then??

But now, Rowley says 'Close it down, it's best for the economy. Them boys overpaid and because of them, we can't get proper hospitals, roads, schools, national security, etc.' We're finding money for the Curepe Overpass, ent? We found money for the highway extension in the East, ent? We found money, somehow, to pressure wash the BL Stadium, ent? Yes, magnitude is important, but it's funny how that works, isn't it? We already have a set of PC*and PD* vehicles, immobile and damaged beyond repair, in front of/behind various police stations, because of reckless driving and what have you, but the same 'deprived' Nat. Sec. ministry, just purchased more vehicles. I guess Rowley is the TTPS' godfather, so it wasn't taxpayers money that paid for those vehicles..oh..wait..sheit..funny how that works, isn't it? Without even so much as an honourable mention to his deceased associate, Malcolm Jones or better yet, his still alive 'good friend', the owner of A&V Drilling, he's closing it down, because it's best for the country...funny how that works, isn't it??..

Why didn't the OWTU shut down the WGTL, ULSD, Admin projects before they became a money sink?

Regular taxpayers could only vote once every 5 years. OWTU could have stepped in anytime. It seems the only time OWTU bares its teeth is for a pay raise.

If you review historical information, the OWTU had in fact indicated to the company and Govt at the time that the projects were exceeding the projected costs.

I don't recall OWTU downing tools or marching in POS threatening to shut down the country to stop these failing projects?

The only do that for a pay raise.

Accept the fact that the OWTU failed their members and the country.

I remember the overspending was highlighted and hence the reason why the People's Partnership (UNC, TOP, COP, MSJ, NJAC) came into effect because to deal with alleged corrupt practices with the then PNM Government and Hart.

The ever so effective method of highlighting the overspending. Why didn't they highlight their concerns every time they wanted a raise.

Why threaten to shut down the country and airport causing long lines at the pumps every time you want a raise, but not do so when the future of the company is at stake?

OWTU failed their members miserably.

[teems1]

Didn't they explain the 45k though?

Total monthly remuneration / total employee count.

Just because you are getting less than 45k doesnt mean the average is incorrect. That just means somebody higher up the org chart is making the difference.

The fact that many people do not understand the difference between median and mean (average) which is common entrace math is quite scary.

And that is where the graph get skewed.

Statistics is such a lovely topic, especially when one remembers the distribution.

It seems that the personnel under the PRIVATE PAYROLL category and the EXCLUSIVE category are making the runs in the top order.

I'm buying your drinks as well, Pointman. It's hilarious that some people think a politician cares about them enough to tell them the truth, but I guess it matters not, because at the end of the day, party cards trump reality. 'They' explained the $45k, so it must be right and honest. Yes, Common Entrance Mathematics tells you about mean, median and mode. But higher level Statistics will explain why these figures aren't always the most reliable.

Funny enough, he hasn't responded to this though..

Doesn't Petrotrin borrow money from the Government every month to meet their op ex?

Then won't that same money be used to purchase the 850m debt?

Once the refinery is running in the red, this will never make sense. It has to make $1 profit before talk of refinancing.

Interesting point. Isn't it true that around 10 out of the 13 billion dollars debt is as a result of the two loans that were taken for projects that never managed to come off the ground? Was anyone even made to answer for the mismanaged funds? People ask why the OWTU didn't flex muscles for those issues, hell even I asked it, but on the flip side; why didn't us as the public clamour for the heads of those responsible for putting the money in front of a fan, the same way we're now clamouring for Petrotrin to be closed down and workers sent home?? Taxpayers dollars weren't being affected then??

But now, Rowley says 'Close it down, it's best for the economy. Them boys overpaid and because of them, we can't get proper hospitals, roads, schools, national security, etc.' We're finding money for the Curepe Overpass, ent? We found money for the highway extension in the East, ent? We found money, somehow, to pressure wash the BL Stadium, ent? Yes, magnitude is important, but it's funny how that works, isn't it? We already have a set of PC*and PD* vehicles, immobile and damaged beyond repair, in front of/behind various police stations, because of reckless driving and what have you, but the same 'deprived' Nat. Sec. ministry, just purchased more vehicles. I guess Rowley is the TTPS' godfather, so it wasn't taxpayers money that paid for those vehicles..oh..wait..sheit..funny how that works, isn't it? Without even so much as an honourable mention to his deceased associate, Malcolm Jones or better yet, his still alive 'good friend', the owner of A&V Drilling, he's closing it down, because it's best for the country...funny how that works, isn't it??..

Why didn't the OWTU shut down the WGTL, ULSD, Admin projects before they became a money sink?

Regular taxpayers could only vote once every 5 years. OWTU could have stepped in anytime. It seems the only time OWTU bares its teeth is for a pay raise.

If you review historical information, the OWTU had in fact indicated to the company and Govt at the time that the projects were exceeding the projected costs.

I don't recall OWTU downing tools or marching in POS threatening to shut down the country to stop these failing projects?

The only do that for a pay raise.

Accept the fact that the OWTU failed their members and the country.

Not sayin OWTU is without its issues but the OWTU is a very convenient scapegoat. No one asks for accountability for major bad decisions. I don’t use major lightly either. Decisions that had zero input from the OWTU but people want them strike when they tried to talk. If they tried to strike you would change your tune to oh why they striking for everything so. Goalposts will be moved.

That is conjecture. Who knows how public opinion would have swayed if they downed their tools for accountability.

The fact is they didn't, and to make matters worse, they striked for a pay raise. Literally squeezing blood from a stone.

[Pointman-IA]

Didn't they explain the 45k though?

Total monthly remuneration / total employee count.

Just because you are getting less than 45k doesnt mean the average is incorrect. That just means somebody higher up the org chart is making the difference.

The fact that many people do not understand the difference between median and mean (average) which is common entrace math is quite scary.

And that is where the graph get skewed.

Statistics is such a lovely topic, especially when one remembers the distribution.

It seems that the personnel under the PRIVATE PAYROLL category and the EXCLUSIVE category are making the runs in the top order.

I'm buying your drinks as well, Pointman. It's hilarious that some people think a politician cares about them enough to tell them the truth, but I guess it matters not, because at the end of the day, party cards trump reality. 'They' explained the $45k, so it must be right and honest. Yes, Common Entrance Mathematics tells you about mean, median and mode. But higher level Statistics will explain why these figures aren't always the most reliable.

Funny enough, he hasn't responded to this though..

Doesn't Petrotrin borrow money from the Government every month to meet their op ex?

Then won't that same money be used to purchase the 850m debt?

Once the refinery is running in the red, this will never make sense. It has to make $1 profit before talk of refinancing.

Interesting point. Isn't it true that around 10 out of the 13 billion dollars debt is as a result of the two loans that were taken for projects that never managed to come off the ground? Was anyone even made to answer for the mismanaged funds? People ask why the OWTU didn't flex muscles for those issues, hell even I asked it, but on the flip side; why didn't us as the public clamour for the heads of those responsible for putting the money in front of a fan, the same way we're now clamouring for Petrotrin to be closed down and workers sent home?? Taxpayers dollars weren't being affected then??

But now, Rowley says 'Close it down, it's best for the economy. Them boys overpaid and because of them, we can't get proper hospitals, roads, schools, national security, etc.' We're finding money for the Curepe Overpass, ent? We found money for the highway extension in the East, ent? We found money, somehow, to pressure wash the BL Stadium, ent? Yes, magnitude is important, but it's funny how that works, isn't it? We already have a set of PC*and PD* vehicles, immobile and damaged beyond repair, in front of/behind various police stations, because of reckless driving and what have you, but the same 'deprived' Nat. Sec. ministry, just purchased more vehicles. I guess Rowley is the TTPS' godfather, so it wasn't taxpayers money that paid for those vehicles..oh..wait..sheit..funny how that works, isn't it? Without even so much as an honourable mention to his deceased associate, Malcolm Jones or better yet, his still alive 'good friend', the owner of A&V Drilling, he's closing it down, because it's best for the country...funny how that works, isn't it??..

Why didn't the OWTU shut down the WGTL, ULSD, Admin projects before they became a money sink?

Regular taxpayers could only vote once every 5 years. OWTU could have stepped in anytime. It seems the only time OWTU bares its teeth is for a pay raise.

If you review historical information, the OWTU had in fact indicated to the company and Govt at the time that the projects were exceeding the projected costs.

I don't recall OWTU downing tools or marching in POS threatening to shut down the country to stop these failing projects?

The only do that for a pay raise.

Accept the fact that the OWTU failed their members and the country.

I remember the overspending was highlighted and hence the reason why the People's Partnership (UNC, TOP, COP, MSJ, NJAC) came into effect because to deal with alleged corrupt practices with the then PNM Government and Hart.

The ever so effective method of highlighting the overspending. Why didn't they highlight their concerns every time they wanted a raise.

Why threaten to shut down the country and airport causing long lines at the pumps every time you want a raise, but not do so when the future of the company is at stake?

OWTU failed their members miserably.

Just out of curiosity, were you employed in the public sector prior to NAR Party term in office?

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

Didn't they explain the 45k though?

Total monthly remuneration / total employee count.

Just because you are getting less than 45k doesnt mean the average is incorrect. That just means somebody higher up the org chart is making the difference.

The fact that many people do not understand the difference between median and mean (average) which is common entrace math is quite scary.

And that is where the graph get skewed.

Statistics is such a lovely topic, especially when one remembers the distribution.

It seems that the personnel under the PRIVATE PAYROLL category and the EXCLUSIVE category are making the runs in the top order.

I'm buying your drinks as well, Pointman. It's hilarious that some people think a politician cares about them enough to tell them the truth, but I guess it matters not, because at the end of the day, party cards trump reality. 'They' explained the $45k, so it must be right and honest. Yes, Common Entrance Mathematics tells you about mean, median and mode. But higher level Statistics will explain why these figures aren't always the most reliable.

Funny enough, he hasn't responded to this though..

Doesn't Petrotrin borrow money from the Government every month to meet their op ex?

Then won't that same money be used to purchase the 850m debt?

Once the refinery is running in the red, this will never make sense. It has to make $1 profit before talk of refinancing.

Interesting point. Isn't it true that around 10 out of the 13 billion dollars debt is as a result of the two loans that were taken for projects that never managed to come off the ground? Was anyone even made to answer for the mismanaged funds? People ask why the OWTU didn't flex muscles for those issues, hell even I asked it, but on the flip side; why didn't us as the public clamour for the heads of those responsible for putting the money in front of a fan, the same way we're now clamouring for Petrotrin to be closed down and workers sent home?? Taxpayers dollars weren't being affected then??

But now, Rowley says 'Close it down, it's best for the economy. Them boys overpaid and because of them, we can't get proper hospitals, roads, schools, national security, etc.' We're finding money for the Curepe Overpass, ent? We found money for the highway extension in the East, ent? We found money, somehow, to pressure wash the BL Stadium, ent? Yes, magnitude is important, but it's funny how that works, isn't it? We already have a set of PC*and PD* vehicles, immobile and damaged beyond repair, in front of/behind various police stations, because of reckless driving and what have you, but the same 'deprived' Nat. Sec. ministry, just purchased more vehicles. I guess Rowley is the TTPS' godfather, so it wasn't taxpayers money that paid for those vehicles..oh..wait..sheit..funny how that works, isn't it? Without even so much as an honourable mention to his deceased associate, Malcolm Jones or better yet, his still alive 'good friend', the owner of A&V Drilling, he's closing it down, because it's best for the country...funny how that works, isn't it??..

Why didn't the OWTU shut down the WGTL, ULSD, Admin projects before they became a money sink?

Regular taxpayers could only vote once every 5 years. OWTU could have stepped in anytime. It seems the only time OWTU bares its teeth is for a pay raise.

If you review historical information, the OWTU had in fact indicated to the company and Govt at the time that the projects were exceeding the projected costs.

I don't recall OWTU downing tools or marching in POS threatening to shut down the country to stop these failing projects?

The only do that for a pay raise.

Accept the fact that the OWTU failed their members and the country.

Not sayin OWTU is without its issues but the OWTU is a very convenient scapegoat. No one asks for accountability for major bad decisions. I don’t use major lightly either. Decisions that had zero input from the OWTU but people want them strike when they tried to talk. If they tried to strike you would change your tune to oh why they striking for everything so. Goalposts will be moved.

That is conjecture. Who knows how public opinion would have swayed if they downed their tools for accountability.

The fact is they didn't, and to make matters worse, they striked for a pay raise. Literally squeezing blood from a stone.

If you want to know how the public opinion would have swayed (not swayed) have a look at how much the public knows. The knee jerk reaction is why they didn’t do this or that even though many times issues have been raised. The union could have 8/10 good points but it will be ignored based on bias. Some self inflicted.

My point is I haven’t seen you post anything at all pointing out those bad decisions or asking why they were allowed to go unaccounted for.

Who running the company? Blaming the tail for wagging the dog is short sighted. It is too easy to place blame where it doesn’t truly lie. In case you want to take that as I’m absolving owtu I’m not. I’m just saying look beyond what is purposely placed right in front of you.

[Pointman-IA]

Didn't they explain the 45k though?

Total monthly remuneration / total employee count.

Just because you are getting less than 45k doesnt mean the average is incorrect. That just means somebody higher up the org chart is making the difference.

The fact that many people do not understand the difference between median and mean (average) which is common entrace math is quite scary.

And that is where the graph get skewed.

Statistics is such a lovely topic, especially when one remembers the distribution.

It seems that the personnel under the PRIVATE PAYROLL category and the EXCLUSIVE category are making the runs in the top order.

I'm buying your drinks as well, Pointman. It's hilarious that some people think a politician cares about them enough to tell them the truth, but I guess it matters not, because at the end of the day, party cards trump reality. 'They' explained the $45k, so it must be right and honest. Yes, Common Entrance Mathematics tells you about mean, median and mode. But higher level Statistics will explain why these figures aren't always the most reliable.

Funny enough, he hasn't responded to this though..

Doesn't Petrotrin borrow money from the Government every month to meet their op ex?

Then won't that same money be used to purchase the 850m debt?

Once the refinery is running in the red, this will never make sense. It has to make $1 profit before talk of refinancing.

Interesting point. Isn't it true that around 10 out of the 13 billion dollars debt is as a result of the two loans that were taken for projects that never managed to come off the ground? Was anyone even made to answer for the mismanaged funds? People ask why the OWTU didn't flex muscles for those issues, hell even I asked it, but on the flip side; why didn't us as the public clamour for the heads of those responsible for putting the money in front of a fan, the same way we're now clamouring for Petrotrin to be closed down and workers sent home?? Taxpayers dollars weren't being affected then??

But now, Rowley says 'Close it down, it's best for the economy. Them boys overpaid and because of them, we can't get proper hospitals, roads, schools, national security, etc.' We're finding money for the Curepe Overpass, ent? We found money for the highway extension in the East, ent? We found money, somehow, to pressure wash the BL Stadium, ent? Yes, magnitude is important, but it's funny how that works, isn't it? We already have a set of PC*and PD* vehicles, immobile and damaged beyond repair, in front of/behind various police stations, because of reckless driving and what have you, but the same 'deprived' Nat. Sec. ministry, just purchased more vehicles. I guess Rowley is the TTPS' godfather, so it wasn't taxpayers money that paid for those vehicles..oh..wait..sheit..funny how that works, isn't it? Without even so much as an honourable mention to his deceased associate, Malcolm Jones or better yet, his still alive 'good friend', the owner of A&V Drilling, he's closing it down, because it's best for the country...funny how that works, isn't it??..

Why didn't the OWTU shut down the WGTL, ULSD, Admin projects before they became a money sink?

Regular taxpayers could only vote once every 5 years. OWTU could have stepped in anytime. It seems the only time OWTU bares its teeth is for a pay raise.

If you review historical information, the OWTU had in fact indicated to the company and Govt at the time that the projects were exceeding the projected costs.

I don't recall OWTU downing tools or marching in POS threatening to shut down the country to stop these failing projects?

The only do that for a pay raise.

Accept the fact that the OWTU failed their members and the country.

Not sayin OWTU is without its issues but the OWTU is a very convenient scapegoat. No one asks for accountability for major bad decisions. I don’t use major lightly either. Decisions that had zero input from the OWTU but people want them strike when they tried to talk. If they tried to strike you would change your tune to oh why they striking for everything so. Goalposts will be moved.

That is conjecture. Who knows how public opinion would have swayed if they downed their tools for accountability.

The fact is they didn't, and to make matters worse, they striked for a pay raise. Literally squeezing blood from a stone.

Let me ask you this... Had the union/s brought forward the issue regarding the fake oil issue in the Cats Hill Ortoire Field, would you have taken them seriously or refer to them as GORSHHH, THEM AGAIN?

[Joshie23]

That is conjecture. Who knows how public opinion would have swayed if they downed their tools for accountability.

The fact is they didn't, and to make matters worse, they striked for a pay raise. Literally squeezing blood from a stone.

If you want to know how the public opinion would have swayed (not swayed) have a look at how much the public knows. The knee jerk reaction is why they didn’t do this or that even though many times issues have been raised. The union could have 8/10 good points but it will be ignored based on bias. Some self inflicted.

My point is I haven’t seen you post anything at all pointing out those bad decisions or asking why they were allowed to go unaccounted for.

Who running the company? Blaming the tail for wagging the dog is short sighted. It is too easy to place blame where it doesn’t truly lie. In case you want to take that as I’m absolving owtu I’m not. I’m just saying look beyond what is purposely placed right in front of you.

This is exactly my point! The naysayers have continued to point fingers at the workforce and the OWTU. They are both not without blame, as we've stated several times. But just like that, no one speaks about Mr. A&V and the alleged $100MM, not even his 'partner'. Not even the man who touted Mr. A&V's unmatched ability to 'increase production' only to disavow all knowledge of any Mr. A&V a few months later. Just like that, no one speaks about Malcolm Jones and his involvement in this whole debacle. His signatures are responsible for 84% of the debt currently saddling the company, but again where was the public outcry when the PNM dropped the civil lawsuit against Malcolm Jones as soon as they came into power, absolving him of all fiduciary irresponsibility? Why did Dr. Rowley willfully leave Malcolm Jones' involvement in this situation out of his history lesson on the 2nd...out of respect for the dead?? Again, I ask, people are SERIOUSLY absorbing 'facts' put forth to them, by a politician?? Fine, you don't have to believe the OWTU, they deserve their licks. You could even accuse one of the guys that posted their payslips of forging it using another typewriter, if your imagination is that wild. But of all the data to not attempt to verify or corroborate, of all the people to not question, the Government of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Laughable, yes. Keep going, rising sunn-ers and red and ready-ers.

*stares awaiting riot-ly*

[teems1]

And that is where the graph get skewed.

Statistics is such a lovely topic, especially when one remembers the distribution.

It seems that the personnel under the PRIVATE PAYROLL category and the EXCLUSIVE category are making the runs in the top order.

I'm buying your drinks as well, Pointman. It's hilarious that some people think a politician cares about them enough to tell them the truth, but I guess it matters not, because at the end of the day, party cards trump reality. 'They' explained the $45k, so it must be right and honest. Yes, Common Entrance Mathematics tells you about mean, median and mode. But higher level Statistics will explain why these figures aren't always the most reliable.

Funny enough, he hasn't responded to this though..

Interesting point. Isn't it true that around 10 out of the 13 billion dollars debt is as a result of the two loans that were taken for projects that never managed to come off the ground? Was anyone even made to answer for the mismanaged funds? People ask why the OWTU didn't flex muscles for those issues, hell even I asked it, but on the flip side; why didn't us as the public clamour for the heads of those responsible for putting the money in front of a fan, the same way we're now clamouring for Petrotrin to be closed down and workers sent home?? Taxpayers dollars weren't being affected then??

But now, Rowley says 'Close it down, it's best for the economy. Them boys overpaid and because of them, we can't get proper hospitals, roads, schools, national security, etc.' We're finding money for the Curepe Overpass, ent? We found money for the highway extension in the East, ent? We found money, somehow, to pressure wash the BL Stadium, ent? Yes, magnitude is important, but it's funny how that works, isn't it? We already have a set of PC*and PD* vehicles, immobile and damaged beyond repair, in front of/behind various police stations, because of reckless driving and what have you, but the same 'deprived' Nat. Sec. ministry, just purchased more vehicles. I guess Rowley is the TTPS' godfather, so it wasn't taxpayers money that paid for those vehicles..oh..wait..sheit..funny how that works, isn't it? Without even so much as an honourable mention to his deceased associate, Malcolm Jones or better yet, his still alive 'good friend', the owner of A&V Drilling, he's closing it down, because it's best for the country...funny how that works, isn't it??..

Why didn't the OWTU shut down the WGTL, ULSD, Admin projects before they became a money sink?

Regular taxpayers could only vote once every 5 years. OWTU could have stepped in anytime. It seems the only time OWTU bares its teeth is for a pay raise.

If you review historical information, the OWTU had in fact indicated to the company and Govt at the time that the projects were exceeding the projected costs.

I don't recall OWTU downing tools or marching in POS threatening to shut down the country to stop these failing projects?

The only do that for a pay raise.

Accept the fact that the OWTU failed their members and the country.

Not sayin OWTU is without its issues but the OWTU is a very convenient scapegoat. No one asks for accountability for major bad decisions. I don’t use major lightly either. Decisions that had zero input from the OWTU but people want them strike when they tried to talk. If they tried to strike you would change your tune to oh why they striking for everything so. Goalposts will be moved.

That is conjecture. Who knows how public opinion would have swayed if they downed their tools for accountability.

The fact is they didn't, and to make matters worse, they striked for a pay raise. Literally squeezing blood from a stone.

Let me ask you this... Had the union/s brought forward the issue regarding the fake oil issue in the Cats Hill Ortoire Field, would you have taken them seriously or refer to them as GORSHHH, THEM AGAIN?

Who knows. I probably would have been saying "them again".

However the OWTU did use the nuclear option of striking many times for a pay increase, therefore trying to save face or help public relations were gone already.

[Pointman-IA]

TO TEEMS1
If I have an aquarium with 5 gallons of water (safe maximum volume is 7 gallons) and the water requires urgent changing, how much gallons of water would be required to keep the fishes happy?

1) 17 gallons
2) 12 gallons
3) 5 gallons
4) ALL OF THE ABOVE

[teems1]

That is conjecture. Who knows how public opinion would have swayed if they downed their tools for accountability.

The fact is they didn't, and to make matters worse, they striked for a pay raise. Literally squeezing blood from a stone.

If you want to know how the public opinion would have swayed (not swayed) have a look at how much the public knows. The knee jerk reaction is why they didn’t do this or that even though many times issues have been raised. The union could have 8/10 good points but it will be ignored based on bias. Some self inflicted.

My point is I haven’t seen you post anything at all pointing out those bad decisions or asking why they were allowed to go unaccounted for.

Who running the company? Blaming the tail for wagging the dog is short sighted. It is too easy to place blame where it doesn’t truly lie. In case you want to take that as I’m absolving owtu I’m not. I’m just saying look beyond what is purposely placed right in front of you.

This is exactly my point! The naysayers have continued to point fingers at the workforce and the OWTU. They are both not without blame, as we've stated several times. But just like that, no one speaks about Mr. A&V and the alleged $100MM, not even his 'partner'. Not even the man who touted Mr. A&V's unmatched ability to 'increase production' only to disavow all knowledge of any Mr. A&V a few months later. Just like that, no one speaks about Malcolm Jones and his involvement in this whole debacle. His signatures are responsible for 84% of the debt currently saddling the company, but again where was the public outcry when the PNM dropped the civil lawsuit against Malcolm Jones as soon as they came into power, absolving him of all fiduciary irresponsibility? Why did Dr. Rowley willfully leave Malcolm Jones' involvement in this situation out of his history lesson on the 2nd...out of respect for the dead?? Again, I ask, people are SERIOUSLY absorbing 'facts' put forth to them, by a politician?? Fine, you don't have to believe the OWTU, they deserve their licks. You could even accuse one of the guys that posted their payslips of forging it using another typewriter, if your imagination is that wild. But of all the data to not attempt to verify or corroborate, of all the people to not question, the Government of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Laughable, yes. Keep going, rising sunn-ers and red and ready-ers.

*stares awaiting riot-ly*

Why the constant crying over split milk. Yes we know Manning/Jones/A&V are responsible for the downfall of Petrotrin. Hopefully in due time the stolen monies get retrieved.

However you have to look forward and see if there is a meaningful way of keeping the refinery open.

At the moment it is now it is a simple case of presenting the facts to the public.

Rowley in his address to the nation and Franklin Khan in his address in Marabella said:

a) Petrotrin spends 2.19b on salaries. OWTU has not rebuked this value.

b) Petrotrin operating costs are 4.14b. OWTU has not rebuked this value.

c) Employee wages are 52.8% (2.19/4.14). OWTU has rebuked this value and said it was 11%. Where did they get this 11% from?

d) Average monthly wages is 45k. OWTU has not officially rebuked this value and given what their calculated value is. Many members of the OWTU and persons on social media with blacked out payslips have said this value is incorrect, but the OWTU heads needs to give an official figure.

e) Petrotrin needs to borrow monthly from the government to meet their operating costs. OWTU has not rebuked this.

Right now Rowley/Khan/Espinet is doing a better job and the OWTU is failing their members yet again by not putting a comprehensive report out for everyone to read.

[teems1]

TO TEEMS1
If I have an aquarium with 5 gallons of water (safe maximum volume is 7 gallons) and the water requires urgent changing, how much gallons of water would be required to keep the fishes happy?

1) 17 gallons
2) 12 gallons
3) 5 gallons
4) ALL OF THE ABOVE

I am not qualified to answer this question as I am not an aquarium expert. This question in no way pertains to anything to do with the closing of the refinery and is trying to deflect/change the topic of conversation.

[Numb3r4]

Could someone re-post that Sunity story? I can't seem to view it.

[teems1]

If you want to know how the public opinion would have swayed (not swayed) have a look at how much the public knows. The knee jerk reaction is why they didn’t do this or that even though many times issues have been raised. The union could have 8/10 good points but it will be ignored based on bias. Some self inflicted.

My point is I haven’t seen you post anything at all pointing out those bad decisions or asking why they were allowed to go unaccounted for.

Who running the company? Blaming the tail for wagging the dog is short sighted. It is too easy to place blame where it doesn’t truly lie. In case you want to take that as I’m absolving owtu I’m not. I’m just saying look beyond what is purposely placed right in front of you.

I cleared out the previous posts as they were becoming too long.

The public knows only how much is being provided to them. Right now Rowley/Khan/Espinet is doing a better job that the OWTU when getting the facts to the public.

I have heard from the PNM how much the operating costs are, how much the wages are, average wage, etc. From OWTU I have only heard wages are 11% instead of 52%.

Petrotrin for years has been used as a piggy bank by all governments. These bad decisions can only be rectified every 5 years during an election. The OWTU has far more power to fix these decisions that the regular public.

It is easy to place blame, but the OWTU has made it even easier with all the recent striking for higher wages.

[gastly369]

https://bit.ly/2NgsKWW

Petrotrin worker Tony Badessie speaks out

[kstt]

https://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/lo ... 7feb6.html

[Joshie23]

Could someone re-post that Sunity story? I can't seem to view it.

Sunity Maharaj brings logic to the petrotrin issue

[Pointman-IA]

TO TEEMS1
If I have an aquarium with 5 gallons of water (safe maximum volume is 7 gallons) and the water requires urgent changing, how much gallons of water would be required to keep the fishes happy?

1) 17 gallons
2) 12 gallons
3) 5 gallons
4) ALL OF THE ABOVE

I am not qualified to answer this question as I am not an aquarium expert. This question in no way pertains to anything to do with the closing of the refinery and is trying to deflect/change the topic of conversation.

No need to be an aquarium expert and I am not attempting to deflect/ change the topic of conversation.

Something like this is responsible for an unprecedented event that took place in 2017.

[The_Honourable]

From ExposeTT Facebook Page - https://www.facebook.com/ttexpose/posts ... 1629730995

Ladies and Gentlemen ,

This was sent to us in our virtual mailbox.

This is the infamous 7 Million Dollar + Solomon report that you the taxpayers have paid for, which is completely useless in relation to Petrotrin and the refinery.

We are still in disbelief that this is what a “first in class” report looks like.

Whilst we urge everyone to read this report, it is clear with or without this or any report the intention was to close-down the refinery anyway.

Download Links:

https://we.tl/t-ABqWAwFhFX

https://openload.co/f/5wMrJAvYG-E/Petro ... b_2018.pdf

[eliteauto]

^^thanks

[airuma]

Were petrotrin employees barred from working/ making OT on these multiple failed projects?
The fact is...... the Governments, employees and the OWTU sucked the well dry, pardon the pun, and now want the public who were negatively affected (the vast majority of the public) to support this parasitic attitude!
What got me is Roget claiming that we are about to witness the biggest con-job in the history of Trinidad and Tobago, i.e. the Government attempting to use petrotrin's debt to reduce it's value. But the PM stated publicly that the OWTU will be given first preference to own the refinery.... therefore the OWTU is in line for a good deal to save it's members right? Mr. Roget should put his money where his mouth is!

[airuma]

Thanks Honourable! Ain't Ramdeen say it's 500 pages?

[Pointman-IA]

Thanks Honourable! Ain't Ramdeen say it's 500 pages?

Discounting the intentionally blank pages..lol.

[Pointman-IA]

Why is there an A&V stamp though?

[The_Honourable]

No problem tuners.

Yeah i saw the A&V stamp also. The e-version seems to be a scanned copy of a photo copy.

I'm guessing A&V got a copy of it somehow and... why not? If my cashcow has been Petrotrin all these years, I want to know what going on and what "the best in class" thinks.

Plus you can use something in the report to reinforce your case in arbitration proceedings...

[Numb3r4]

In response to the Tony Bedassie video, with regards to the plan to have capped wells go to the private investor, this is nothing new it was common practice on onshore with Petrotrin drilling wells and they were deemed unproductive and the block/field would find their way into the hands of other local producers and lo and behold productive and fairly lucrative, well for an onshore asset anyway. So that does make sense. With regards to the drilling campaign costing so much much of it was due to mismanagement and decisions being made by folks who were ill qualified inexperienced or just not suited for even the department they were in charge of. If it were better managed it wouldn't have been that bad especially if they hadn't used so many consultants who made some terrible engineering choices. He mentioned upgrades to the production facilities when I was there some of the block station were taken out of service on account of needing maintenance so maybe they have done some work but even still a private investor would still have to put some money in to get i really up to par.

True what he said about decommissioning it would mean rendering the plant non functional, but if that is the case why would an investor buy a non-functional pant? I thought that they could see to it that the company undergoes a transition to new management and try to get fair value for the plant and assets. So essentially the investor gets a steal of a deal at taxpayers expense.

As with Espinet, yeah his past work with TCL was a clear indicator. Quite the industrial/corporate hatchet man.

A fairly brief and god history of the OWTU as well as the black power movement. He could have given some honourable mention of Stokely Carmicheal. True the base was shelled, those who were rebelled were deemed mutineers.

True our standard of living was based largely on the oil wealth. Got no problem with paying more at the pump so long as it is a fair system like the US or Canada, our subsidized way of life was what led to the mess we're in now so a little give here wouldn't be so bad. Agreed a private entity's first priority is to shareholders. Maybe it 's a good thing we may have been too ungrateful or too unaware of what we had so about time we learn and if we have to burn to learn then so be it.

True it is a managed float...I guess it will be yeah about that 1.00US to $12.00TT...well buy local if not then starve. We're too fat too much foreign food in the groceries not to mention the amount of foreign food franchises this may very well be a good time to go on a fast/diet or start back going to the market and cooking at home.

Stop buying so much sheit!!!

Walk more will save on petrol at the pump, will also help to lose weight, wouldn't need the gym, thus saving more money.

Underemployed...ha ha like every one with a degree.

Just note that many of the selfish people were locals.

Rise in life dis-satisfaction, possible mental health issues, inability to cope, stress and strain on family life possible dissolving of it, increased likelihood of substance abuse.

True we enjoy being spoon/breast fed...no better than children....

Agreed with that reference to C3 and such, got my own theories.

Education is too difficult, you have too much book sense. Reminds me of the days when Petrotrin managers would hide manuals and work place literature for fear of the worker becoming enlightened. I alone must have knowledge!!! AH HA HA HA!!!!!

Massa massa what yuh say massa....

True True.

[Galvatron]

After reading some posts in this thread, one would think that OWTU was the one managing Petrotrin!

[vaiostation]

^^^ They weren't the one's running the company, but they had a lot of power in certain respects. So they aren't as innocent as people would like to make them out to be.

[Galvatron]

Please explain how the OWTU had any power wrt the multiple failed projects that resulted in the huge debts?