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Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:teems1 wrote:Joshie23 wrote:gastly369 wrote:Wasn't fired...quit..hydroep wrote:LOL...a board member has been the first to get fired...
Didn't want to 'stick to the script', perhaps??rawCpoppa wrote:
I saw this as soon as it dropped, almost two hours ago..no one has anything to say about this? Or are we quiet because it didn't come from Rowley et al.??
Doesn't this reaffirm the fact that the 45k average is an accurate figure?
If the figures were lower than 45k, then we can say that the 45k average is a lie etc, but these values help Rowley's stance...
The average worker doesn’t work for these salaries. Most work for significantly less than these sums. And by most I mean union level workers do not make anything close to these figures.
rawCpoppa wrote:
teems1 wrote:Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:teems1 wrote:Joshie23 wrote:gastly369 wrote:Wasn't fired...quit..hydroep wrote:LOL...a board member has been the first to get fired...
Didn't want to 'stick to the script', perhaps??rawCpoppa wrote:
I saw this as soon as it dropped, almost two hours ago..no one has anything to say about this? Or are we quiet because it didn't come from Rowley et al.??
Doesn't this reaffirm the fact that the 45k average is an accurate figure?
If the figures were lower than 45k, then we can say that the 45k average is a lie etc, but these values help Rowley's stance...
The average worker doesn’t work for these salaries. Most work for significantly less than these sums. And by most I mean union level workers do not make anything close to these figures.
I think the meaning of average in this case is being ambiguous due to the colloquial trini dialect.
I mean average as total payroll expenditure / total number employees. You mean average as the median worker.
Let's say I own a business with 10 employees.
I pay the engineer 91k, and 9 labourers 1k per month.
Overall my payroll expenditure is 100k.
The average salary of my workers is (100k / 10) = 10k.
The median salary of my workers is 1k (The value which occurs at the middle)
(1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 1k 91k)
The mode salary is 1k (value which occurs the most).
But I can't verify the authenticity of these figures, so we're back to square one. Meh.The_Honourable wrote:Closure of the Refinery
The refinery has been ailing for a long time for well over 20 years or more. It is like a patient suffering from diabetes. He had a blister on one of his toes but ignored it. When it got progressively worse, only then he decided to see a doctor. The doctor took care of it and gave him some advice about his diet and precautions to be taken ie ( Consultants such as the Solomon’and Associates). He made little or no changes to his life style but gravitated back to the old habits. In fact he was given more sugary foods by his welfare adviser (the OWTU). Who wouldn’t like all that nice sweet delicious deserts. His condition got so serious that the entire body was infected. He got into a coma and was given life support. There was no chance of his survival as advised by medical experts, (International Consultants). His family and citizens and all concerned are now debating if they should pull the plug. The Governments of the past, the Board of Directors, OWTU and Management, all contributed to the current state of his condition.
Let us examine the data presented by the PETROTRIN board.:-
If PETROTRIN were to remain an integrated company and to be competitive, it would require $TT 25 billion to stay alive because the infrastructure needs to be refurbished as well as to pay it’s outstanding debts. Even if the above is done it will continue to lose $TT 2 billion a year.
Figures from the Government and PETROTRIN indicate that they lost $TT 8 billion in the last five years, is $TT12 billion in debt and owes the Government more than $TT3 billion in taxes and royalties.
The most modern refineries in the world with all the new technology are running at very low margines. Most of the older refineries in the world are shutting down because they are uncompetitive. Clean and renewable energy are advancing at a rapid rate, thus lowering the demand for crude oil.
Since in my days (1964-1999) of TEXACO now PETROTRIN, plants were being shut down because of obsolescence. For example, power stations A &B, Western Topping plants, No 2 Vacuum unit, Sulphur plant, Rexformer and Reformer units,,Dubbs cracking plant, Poly plant ,Nonene plant, old Acid plant, old Alkylation, uni,Lube oil plant, Normal Paraffin unit, Rerun unit and maybe others.The old Acid and Alky units have been replaced by new efficient units in keeping with new technology which was required.
The plants mentioned above were relevant in those days but because of changing market demands, product specifications and the need to improve efficiency, the company had to change strategy. But the workforce remained static with salaries and wages skyrocketing within the last decade creating a Dutch disease to the rest of the economy but also eroded the profitability of the company. The benchmark for a refinery producing 150,000 barrels per day elsewhere in the world employs a maximum of 50% less people than the Point-a-Pierre refinery. Admittedly, the Pointe-a-Pierre refinery with existing infrastructure is highly maintenance intensive.
PETROTRIN spends considerable amount of foreign exchange which they borrow to buy crude from the foreign market at market price, or may be at concessionary price. They have to blend PETRON’s high sulphur high gravity crude to make it suitable for processing. This refinery is perhaps the most inefficient refinery in the world that is still existing. After the crude is processed the bulk of the finished products have to be sold at competitive price in the open market. I can understand why the company is loosing $2 billion a year. The cost of refining a barrel of crude per capita of expense is far too high to make it commercially profitable. The worst part of it is that no bank will lend you money to buy crude when you are unable to pay your loan and service your interest payment. The Government says they are strapped for funds and they cannot help. Instead of being a net earner of foreign exchanger they are a net looser.
A survey done some years ago (Business Guardian) compared salaries of similar institutions in the US and other developed countries were slightly lower on the average compared to PETROTRIN using the equivalent $TT to $US. The situation is even worse today.
Because of the layout of the refinery, maintenance of piping alone contributes to high maintenance cost. There are enormous amount equipment that are old, such as electrical switch gears at the substations, About 50% of bad actors of rotating equipment are unreliable and contributing to plant downtime and frequent fires. Most of the pressure vessels on older plants are reaching retirement age due to corrosion. Relief valves have to be reset to accommodate loss of thickness in order to maintain marginal integrity. Storage tanks are falling a part, Tanks that are required for storage at present will require immediate maintenance. Utilities for air compressors steam generators and ancillary equipment are hanging on a string. All require considerable maintenance.
The above gives a grim picture in a nutshell of the mechanical condition of the refinery infrastructure that will require enormous capital expenditure to revamp and refurbishment to bring them back to an acceptable standard.
The company embarked on a Gasoline Optimization project that was a very good decision. The objective was to get a higher yield from a barrel of crude to produce higher value products and to minimize the heavy ends which is low in value.
The fiasco of this project was the inability to capitalize on the expected revenue because the project ran into severe cost overruns and very significant time delays.The revenue expected was supposed to pay for the bond of USD 850,000. The Cat Cracker, the bread and butter plant was shut down for almost two years. There is an integrity concern with the fractionator column that will require replacement shortly at a cost of $TT250 million. Heavy cracks were found and repaired but was given a lifeline for a few more years. Operators did not want to start up the plant after the upgrade.
The Gas to Liquid plant costing 2 billion dollars could not have been operated. The Ultra Low Sulphur Deisel plant was built without the correct code for earthquake. Lloyds will not insure it. Millions of dollars have already been spent and now millions more are required to rework the entire foundation. PETROTRIN is owing USD 750. Not one cent profit can be realized from the above projects. The interest to service the loan has been ongoing for the past three years and no indication when it will end.
The problem was the incompetent project managers and very incompetent and poor leadership of top managers and board of directors who did not recognize the consequences of keeping such a project costing billions of dollars on target and within cost. What was the purpose of the Board of Directors in collaboration with the Government? The stake holders are the citizens of the country and Governments past and present were elected to represent them. The oil industry,a multibillion dollar investment, is the flagship of the country and should be contributing the largest proportion of revenue to the government. It is turning out to be the biggest liability. . The responsibility of the government is to provide competent leadership and Management to ensure efficient performance of the company.. Every time a government changes the board of directors must also change. In most cases, the appointment of directors are based on political patronage rather than competence. It is the employees, taxpayers and the neighbourhood communities that will suffer the consequences. It is understandable why there is such an emotional impact.
It is very sad that a refinery that made valuable contribution to thousands of citizens and the economy for almost a century has to be shutdown. It is totally shameful.
PETROTRIN is now in a very deep hole and they don’t know how to get out of it They claim there is no other option but to shut down the refinery.
The situation is such that no one is being held accountable. This is typical of State run enterprises. Government should never get involved in owning and running State enterprises. Joint venture may work providing they are not the dominant shareholder. This is to avoid political interference. It must be run strictly as a sustainable commercial business entity rather than a welfare state company.
If the Board of Directors and the Government is correct in the data they presented,which I feel it is, their decision to shut the Refinery down is a good one.
I don’t think the socio economic fallout will impact very heavily. The 1700 permanent and 1500 temporary employees that are to be sent home will receive adequate compensation as promised by the government. The fallout may not be as bad if they seize the opportunity and use their innovative skills to explore other opportunities. The displaced employees which comprise less than 1 % of the population, even with salaries higher than the national average, may not adversely impact the overall economy. There may be a ripple effect for a short time but will normalize after adjustments have taken place.
The debate should now be the way forward. I have not yet seen any bright ideas coming from the population. We need some brainstorming.
This is my take on the closure of the refinery.
Rafeek Mohammed
Former Texaco and Petrotrin Engineering.
kstt wrote:timelapse wrote:Joshie23 wrote:teems1 wrote:Public entity bro.kstt wrote:teems1 wrote:kstt wrote:
ONE BILLION IS NO KIND OF MONEY TO TALK ABOUT!!
That's the kind of thinking that got Petrotrin to their current financial state.
Instead of saying 4700 workers going home, ask yourself were 4700 workers really needed?
Why still so much outside contractors, understaffed departments and overtime hours logged when you have such a huge workforce.
LOL
Stay quiet if you know nothing about its operations nah bai. You will look lesser of a kaant!
If y'all weren't borrowing money from future taxpayers every month to meet operating expenditures then fine.
But y'all ain't making a profit and are squeezing the taxpayers dry.
Btw good job of trying to convince me to keep Petrotrin open. Really good PR ambassador work.
In an attempt to be diplomatic, if your job (disclaimer: not sure if kstt is a Petrotrin employee) or a family members or even a breadwinner's job was on the line and there were several misconceptions, lies by omission and plain old blatant lies peddled by the powers that be to fuel statements like your previous one, you might exert a bit of animosity as well. The statement I placed in red, is a very, very interesting question.timelapse wrote:sinister_14 wrote:This is why so many people want the refinery closed and re open so they too cud apply for jobs..it really sicken to see how some people does think waiting to see many fall for their personal gain....there are many envious no good small minded persons just like you waiting to apply for jobs at the refinery hope you guys make the cut.....this is why trinidad would never move forward from government to the small man on the street....all thinks the same sad reality we live in....Curtms wrote:Have that!gastly369 wrote:Party card >cvCurtms wrote:Have meh CV waiting...
Not so nice when the shoe is on the other foot is it?
Wasn't it small minded thinking that got you a job in Petrotrin only if you had somebody working there?
Lol. You can't tell me that you don't know someone working Petrotrin..where is your Petrotrin wok?? Unless you're not living in Trinidad, in which case forget I said anything.
I applied , and I am qualified, never even got a response, yet I know people with fadda, uncle, neighbour getting through the door normal
Was that the only company you applied for a job and never got through but other people did?
shimon wrote:The_Honourable wrote:Closure of the Refinery
The refinery has been ailing for a long time for well over 20 years or more. It is like a patient suffering from diabetes. He had a blister on one of his toes but ignored it. When it got progressively worse, only then he decided to see a doctor. The doctor took care of it and gave him some advice about his diet and precautions to be taken ie ( Consultants such as the Solomon’and Associates). He made little or no changes to his life style but gravitated back to the old habits. In fact he was given more sugary foods by his welfare adviser (the OWTU). Who wouldn’t like all that nice sweet delicious deserts. His condition got so serious that the entire body was infected. He got into a coma and was given life support. There was no chance of his survival as advised by medical experts, (International Consultants). His family and citizens and all concerned are now debating if they should pull the plug. The Governments of the past, the Board of Directors, OWTU and Management, all contributed to the current state of his condition.
Let us examine the data presented by the PETROTRIN board.:-
If PETROTRIN were to remain an integrated company and to be competitive, it would require $TT 25 billion to stay alive because the infrastructure needs to be refurbished as well as to pay it’s outstanding debts. Even if the above is done it will continue to lose $TT 2 billion a year.
Figures from the Government and PETROTRIN indicate that they lost $TT 8 billion in the last five years, is $TT12 billion in debt and owes the Government more than $TT3 billion in taxes and royalties.
The most modern refineries in the world with all the new technology are running at very low margines. Most of the older refineries in the world are shutting down because they are uncompetitive. Clean and renewable energy are advancing at a rapid rate, thus lowering the demand for crude oil.
Since in my days (1964-1999) of TEXACO now PETROTRIN, plants were being shut down because of obsolescence. For example, power stations A &B, Western Topping plants, No 2 Vacuum unit, Sulphur plant, Rexformer and Reformer units,,Dubbs cracking plant, Poly plant ,Nonene plant, old Acid plant, old Alkylation, uni,Lube oil plant, Normal Paraffin unit, Rerun unit and maybe others.The old Acid and Alky units have been replaced by new efficient units in keeping with new technology which was required.
The plants mentioned above were relevant in those days but because of changing market demands, product specifications and the need to improve efficiency, the company had to change strategy. But the workforce remained static with salaries and wages skyrocketing within the last decade creating a Dutch disease to the rest of the economy but also eroded the profitability of the company. The benchmark for a refinery producing 150,000 barrels per day elsewhere in the world employs a maximum of 50% less people than the Point-a-Pierre refinery. Admittedly, the Pointe-a-Pierre refinery with existing infrastructure is highly maintenance intensive.
PETROTRIN spends considerable amount of foreign exchange which they borrow to buy crude from the foreign market at market price, or may be at concessionary price. They have to blend PETRON’s high sulphur high gravity crude to make it suitable for processing. This refinery is perhaps the most inefficient refinery in the world that is still existing. After the crude is processed the bulk of the finished products have to be sold at competitive price in the open market. I can understand why the company is loosing $2 billion a year. The cost of refining a barrel of crude per capita of expense is far too high to make it commercially profitable. The worst part of it is that no bank will lend you money to buy crude when you are unable to pay your loan and service your interest payment. The Government says they are strapped for funds and they cannot help. Instead of being a net earner of foreign exchanger they are a net looser.
A survey done some years ago (Business Guardian) compared salaries of similar institutions in the US and other developed countries were slightly lower on the average compared to PETROTRIN using the equivalent $TT to $US. The situation is even worse today.
Because of the layout of the refinery, maintenance of piping alone contributes to high maintenance cost. There are enormous amount equipment that are old, such as electrical switch gears at the substations, About 50% of bad actors of rotating equipment are unreliable and contributing to plant downtime and frequent fires. Most of the pressure vessels on older plants are reaching retirement age due to corrosion. Relief valves have to be reset to accommodate loss of thickness in order to maintain marginal integrity. Storage tanks are falling a part, Tanks that are required for storage at present will require immediate maintenance. Utilities for air compressors steam generators and ancillary equipment are hanging on a string. All require considerable maintenance.
The above gives a grim picture in a nutshell of the mechanical condition of the refinery infrastructure that will require enormous capital expenditure to revamp and refurbishment to bring them back to an acceptable standard.
The company embarked on a Gasoline Optimization project that was a very good decision. The objective was to get a higher yield from a barrel of crude to produce higher value products and to minimize the heavy ends which is low in value.
The fiasco of this project was the inability to capitalize on the expected revenue because the project ran into severe cost overruns and very significant time delays.The revenue expected was supposed to pay for the bond of USD 850,000. The Cat Cracker, the bread and butter plant was shut down for almost two years. There is an integrity concern with the fractionator column that will require replacement shortly at a cost of $TT250 million. Heavy cracks were found and repaired but was given a lifeline for a few more years. Operators did not want to start up the plant after the upgrade.
The Gas to Liquid plant costing 2 billion dollars could not have been operated. The Ultra Low Sulphur Deisel plant was built without the correct code for earthquake. Lloyds will not insure it. Millions of dollars have already been spent and now millions more are required to rework the entire foundation. PETROTRIN is owing USD 750. Not one cent profit can be realized from the above projects. The interest to service the loan has been ongoing for the past three years and no indication when it will end.
The problem was the incompetent project managers and very incompetent and poor leadership of top managers and board of directors who did not recognize the consequences of keeping such a project costing billions of dollars on target and within cost. What was the purpose of the Board of Directors in collaboration with the Government? The stake holders are the citizens of the country and Governments past and present were elected to represent them. The oil industry,a multibillion dollar investment, is the flagship of the country and should be contributing the largest proportion of revenue to the government. It is turning out to be the biggest liability. . The responsibility of the government is to provide competent leadership and Management to ensure efficient performance of the company.. Every time a government changes the board of directors must also change. In most cases, the appointment of directors are based on political patronage rather than competence. It is the employees, taxpayers and the neighbourhood communities that will suffer the consequences. It is understandable why there is such an emotional impact.
It is very sad that a refinery that made valuable contribution to thousands of citizens and the economy for almost a century has to be shutdown. It is totally shameful.
PETROTRIN is now in a very deep hole and they don’t know how to get out of it They claim there is no other option but to shut down the refinery.
The situation is such that no one is being held accountable. This is typical of State run enterprises. Government should never get involved in owning and running State enterprises. Joint venture may work providing they are not the dominant shareholder. This is to avoid political interference. It must be run strictly as a sustainable commercial business entity rather than a welfare state company.
If the Board of Directors and the Government is correct in the data they presented,which I feel it is, their decision to shut the Refinery down is a good one.
I don’t think the socio economic fallout will impact very heavily. The 1700 permanent and 1500 temporary employees that are to be sent home will receive adequate compensation as promised by the government. The fallout may not be as bad if they seize the opportunity and use their innovative skills to explore other opportunities. The displaced employees which comprise less than 1 % of the population, even with salaries higher than the national average, may not adversely impact the overall economy. There may be a ripple effect for a short time but will normalize after adjustments have taken place.
The debate should now be the way forward. I have not yet seen any bright ideas coming from the population. We need some brainstorming.
This is my take on the closure of the refinery.
Rafeek Mohammed
Former Texaco and Petrotrin Engineering.
A well articulated piece.
Historically civil unrest has changed the course of history.... Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Mandela even Butler....Numb3r4 wrote:What exactly is a "Mother of All Marches" going to do after the fact....
They may very well end up being a laughing stock, this time publicly, which may only reinforce the public sentiment of them being ineffectual or just plain incompetent.
Gladiator wrote:Historically civil unrest has changed the course of history.... Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Mandela even Butler....Numb3r4 wrote:What exactly is a "Mother of All Marches" going to do after the fact....
They may very well end up being a laughing stock, this time publicly, which may only reinforce the public sentiment of them being ineffectual or just plain incompetent.
You will be surprised how politicians will sh!t their pants when they see 5000 people mobilised and marching. Worse yet if the international media get hold of it.
sMASH wrote:When all those salaries come out of circulation u will see how much the people wasn't benefitting. That time it will be too late.
Redman wrote:sMASH wrote:When all those salaries come out of circulation u will see how much the people wasn't benefitting. That time it will be too late.
You act like all the employees will never ever look or find a job, not getting a lump sum,not getting a pension were allowed, and cant re tool and retrain or start something.
Quite a few Ive spoken to already have a plan in place and are cool with someone paying them a year worth of salary in front.
bess almera wrote:Redman wrote:sMASH wrote:When all those salaries come out of circulation u will see how much the people wasn't benefitting. That time it will be too late.
You act like all the employees will never ever look or find a job, not getting a lump sum,not getting a pension were allowed, and cant re tool and retrain or start something.
Quite a few Ive spoken to already have a plan in place and are cool with someone paying them a year worth of salary in front.
Most sensible post thus far. Payout package gonna be huge...wait for it.
Having people working under the personal allowance bracket (thus paying no income taxes) complain about Petrotrin's drain on their taxpayers dollars (12.5% VAT?), but their son Boyo finished his three year degree in seven years, finally finishing in 2012 or so, only because GATE stopped paying for him to repeat courses. 
bess almera wrote:Redman wrote:sMASH wrote:When all those salaries come out of circulation u will see how much the people wasn't benefitting. That time it will be too late.
You act like all the employees will never ever look or find a job, not getting a lump sum,not getting a pension were allowed, and cant re tool and retrain or start something.
Quite a few Ive spoken to already have a plan in place and are cool with someone paying them a year worth of salary in front.
Most sensible post thus far. Payout package gonna be huge...wait for it.
Redman wrote:sMASH wrote:When all those salaries come out of circulation u will see how much the people wasn't benefitting. That time it will be too late.
You act like all the employees will never ever look or find a job, not getting a lump sum,not getting a pension were allowed, and cant re tool and retrain or start something.
Quite a few Ive spoken to already have a plan in place and are cool with someone paying them a year worth of salary in front.
