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CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

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CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby abducted » March 10th, 2019, 11:19 pm

Wikipedia shows CAL ordered 12 of the 737 Max 8 variant in November 2018, similar to the plane that crashed shortly after takeoff today in Ethiopia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... deliveries
Screenshot 2019-03-10 at 11.19.07 PM.jpg


There were no survivors
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47513508

An Ethiopian Airlines jet has crashed shortly after take-off from Addis Ababa, killing all on board.
The airline said 149 passengers and eight crew members were on flight ET302 from the Ethiopian capital to Nairobi in Kenya.
It said 32 Kenyans, 18 Canadians, eight Americans and seven British nationals were among the passengers.
The crash happened at 08:44 local time, six minutes after the months-old Boeing 737 Max-8 took off.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby ProtonPowder » March 11th, 2019, 12:39 am

Following the Lion Air crash last October, investigators said the pilots had appeared to struggle with an automated system designed to keep the plane from stalling - a new feature of the Boeing 737 Max.
The anti-stalling system repeatedly forced the plane's nose down, despite efforts by pilots to correct this, findings suggest.
There is no suggestion that the Ethiopian Airlines jet suffered similar issues on Sunday.


Wonder if it was the same cause jed. If so, what are the implications of such a defective anti-stalling system? Boeing better be hauling arse right about now.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby Zetski » March 11th, 2019, 2:12 am

ProtonPowder wrote:
Following the Lion Air crash last October, investigators said the pilots had appeared to struggle with an automated system designed to keep the plane from stalling - a new feature of the Boeing 737 Max.
The anti-stalling system repeatedly forced the plane's nose down, despite efforts by pilots to correct this, findings suggest.
There is no suggestion that the Ethiopian Airlines jet suffered similar issues on Sunday.


Wonder if it was the same cause jed. If so, what are the implications of such a defective anti-stalling system? Boeing better be hauling arse right about now.


not much.. pilots are trained for stall recovery but my guess is most likely a software issue since the vertical vs time showed the aircraft had normal climb and rapid descent rather than rapid climb and descent... automation has always been a problem.. even with the Airbus A330 in 2008.

Authorities wont actually tell you the exact reason they cant do that :lol:

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby teems1 » March 11th, 2019, 7:28 am

It appears none have been delivered as yet. If there is indeed something wrong with the 737 MAX the FAA and Boeing will ground and fix them asap.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby maj. tom » March 11th, 2019, 7:48 am

Very detailed report on Boeing problems with the 737 Max from the NY Times. They offered no new training for pilots on the new machine, and had to install a program... essentially a few lines of code upgrade for stabilization issues caused by the larger engines and position of the engine on the wings than the regular 737-800. Unfortunately, the FAA has sided with Boeing, while a lot of the pilots on this new machine are complaining about this.

I hope that this new crash will force the NTSB and FAA to reconsider and force a deeper investigation and address the pilots' issues and concerns.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/worl ... ilots.html
http://archive.fo/ihTDz

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby Dizzy28 » March 11th, 2019, 9:01 am

If you use AA to Miami chances are its the 737 Max 8 you would be flying on.

The few times I used them last year was always the Max 8. The last time was not too long after the Lion Air crash and needless to say I was a little paranoid.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby maj. tom » March 11th, 2019, 9:21 am

Ethiopian Airlines: Flight recorders recovered from crash site

"It's highly suspicious," Mary Schiavo, former Inspector General of the US Transportation Department, told CNN.
"Here we have a brand-new aircraft that's gone down twice in a year. That rings alarm bells in the aviation industry, because that just doesn't happen."

After last October's crash, Boeing sent an emergency notice to airlines warning them of a problem with the anti-stall system.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47521744

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby vaiostation » March 11th, 2019, 9:52 am

Probably imbert get a good deal, like with de tobago boats...

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby redmanjp » March 11th, 2019, 12:04 pm

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/investing/boeing-737-crash/index.html

Boeing crisis escalates as countries ground 737 MAX jets
By David Goldman, Jethro Mullen and Charles Riley, CNN Business

Updated 1501 GMT (2301 HKT) March 11, 2019

The 737 MAX 8 after a second crash involving the best-selling Boeing aircraft in less than five months.

New York (CNN Business) China, Indonesia and several airlines around the world have grounded the 737 MAX 8 after a second crash involving the best-selling Boeing aircraft in less than five months.

Chinese aviation authorities on Monday told airlines in the country to ground all their Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft, citing the need for "strict control of safety risks."
Regulators in Indonesia said that planes there would need to be inspected before flights resumed. Some individual airlines are taking similar action elsewhere.
All 157 people on board a 737 MAX 8 operated by Ethiopian Airlines were killed when the plane crashed shortly after takeoff on Sunday. In late October, a 737 MAX 8 flown by Lion Air went down off the coast of Indonesia.
Both the Ethiopian Airlines and Lion Air planes were brand-new aircraft. And both crashed minutes into flight.


The situation threatens to tarnish Boeing's reputation for safety, and raise doubts about one of the company's most popular jets. Shares in Boeing dropped 8% in early trade in New York.
"A suspension in China is very significant, as this is a major market for Boeing," said Greg Waldron, Asia managing editor at aviation research firm FlightGlobal.
Chinese airlines have 97 of the 737 MAX aircraft in service, more than a quarter of the total in operation worldwide, according to FlightGlobal.

Already, Boeing is taking steps to minimize the damage. It has postponed the debut of its new 777X jetliner, which was scheduled for this week, as it deals with the fallout from Sunday's disaster.

Airlines take action
US and European Union regulators have said they are closely monitoring the situation, but they have not yet taken steps to inspect or ground 737 MAX fleets. But Mary Schiavo, a CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general for the US Transportation Department, said it would be a good idea for Boeing or the airlines to ground the planes ahead of any government mandate.
"There are huge questions about this plane. There are already just the website are just exploding telling passengers how to check to see if their plane is one of the these planes and how to get off of them," she said on CNN's New Day. "So by getting on top of it, they're way ahead."
Some airlines took action on their own, however, creating a patchwork of responses that could sow confusion among consumers over the safety of the Boeing planes.
Ethiopian Airlines grounded its fleet of 737 MAX planes as an "extra safety precaution." Cayman Airways, the main carrier of the Cayman Islands, said it would do the same until "more information is received."
Other carriers including American Airlines (AAL), Southwest Airlines (LUV), FlyDubai, Norwegian Air and SilkAir said they would continue to operate their 737 MAX aircraft.
Boeing's blockbuster
The single-aisle Boeing 737 has been a workhorse on short- and medium-haul flights for decades. The 737 MAX is the latest version — and the company's bestselling aircraft by far. Airlines have ordered thousands of them.
The two-year-old 737 MAX 8 model in particular is hugely popular. The MAX 9 only recently went on sale and Boeing has not yet delivered the MAX 10.
Last year, 72% of Boeing's deliveries were 737 planes. Boeing plans to make 59 new 737s each month this year — more than four times the number of 787s, Boeing's next-best seller.
Southwest Airlines (LUV) has the largest fleet of 737 MAX 8 airplanes, followed by RyanAir (RYAAY) and FlyDubai, according to Boeing. American Airlines (AAL) and United (UAL) also fly the MAX 8. Delta (DAL) does not fly any 737 MAX variants.
Despite the negative headlines, Richard Aboulafia, an aviation analyst at Teal Group, predicted that the fallout from the Ethiopia crash is unlikely to hurt Boeing's bottom line too much.
"Relative to the company's revenue base, this would not be overly burdensome by any means," he said.

Boeing delivered a record 806 commercial jets in 2018, and posted sales of more than $100 billion for the first time in its 102-year history. Before the Ethiopia crash, its stock had gained 31% this year.
The company said in a statement Sunday that it "is deeply saddened to learn of the passing of the passengers and crew on Ethiopian Airlines flight 302."

Two crashes

The circumstances of the Ethiopian Airlines and Lion Air crashes are under investigation, and Boeing has presented no evidence to suggest the two disasters are linked. The similarities may be a coincidence.
"A formal investigation will need to be conducted into this new crash. It's important not to speculate as to its causes. A final, conclusive report has yet to be issued in the case of the Lion [Air] crash," said Waldron.
"That said, having two crashes of a brand new type in a short time is an unprecedented state of events," he added. "It is inevitable that this will affect perceptions about the 737 MAX family."

The Lion Air crash is believed to have been caused by faulty data that suggested the nose was tilted higher than it was. But the new safety system installed in the 737 MAX 8 plane automatically pulls the plane's nose down.
Aboulafia said that if the same issues caused both crashes, Boeing might need to quickly implement a package of modifications to its planes and change the way 737 MAX 8 crews are trained.
A Boeing technical team will travel to the crash site to provide assistance to the Ethiopia Accident Investigation Bureau and US National Transportation Safety Board.

-- CNN Business' Daniel Shane contributed to this report.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby Redman » March 11th, 2019, 3:04 pm

CAL and Boeing
TSTT and Huwei

we on a roll here

seriously-here is where pressure is put back on the US(who needs Boeing to perform-company and stock)
for the geopolitical positions the US takes.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby Kenjo » March 11th, 2019, 4:44 pm

Boeing is a Chicago based USA company

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby l33t2 » March 11th, 2019, 4:52 pm

I guess many of you don't know how stringent and thorough the aviation industry if with regards to safety. This is an big issue, Boeing will fix this issue, this a rare blip in safety but of course it's cause for concern.

But CAL hasn't received these planes, Boeing will seriously address this very alarming issue and we will be safe.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby hydroep » March 11th, 2019, 5:25 pm

The 'rudder hardover' issue was a problem on older Boeing 737s as well. Yeah they fixed it, not before a few incidents and fatal crashes though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

Air Crash Investigation/Mayday is a good documentary series for anyone interested in these sorts of things. If yuh paranoid, doh watch it before a flight eh...:lol:

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CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby paparazzi » March 11th, 2019, 8:53 pm

The issue relates to the flight envelope logic getting confused in certain situations. In both Lion Air and Ethiopian the incidents happened after takeoff and during the climb.

Boeing has said to operators, if the plane basically starts to act weird take it out of autopilot and fly it manually.

It seems that the US airlines have avoided the the issue altogether by manually flying the a/c from take off to at least the first stage of the step climb.

This is smart as it avoids the problem, but boeing still has to get to the root of it

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby maj. tom » March 12th, 2019, 7:11 am

Boeing 737: Australia joins Singapore in barring Max planes

Singapore and Australia's aviation authorities have temporarily banned Boeing 737 Max aircraft from flying into and out of their countries.

The decision comes after an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Max 8 crashed on Sunday, killing 157 people on board.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47536502

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby toyolink » March 12th, 2019, 9:33 am

paparazzi wrote:The issue relates to the flight envelope logic getting confused in certain situations. In both Lion Air and Ethiopian the incidents happened after takeoff and during the climb.

Boeing has said to operators, if the plane basically starts to act weird take it out of autopilot and fly it manually.

It seems that the US airlines have avoided the the issue altogether by manually flying the a/c from take off to at least the first stage of the step climb.

This is smart as it avoids the problem, but boeing still has to get to the root of it

If this is true, it only serves to reinforce the view that these aircrafts are inherently dangerous and urgent action is necessary.
Owners of these units must take action to ensure the safety of their passengers or may face severe legal liability exposures.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby redmanjp » March 12th, 2019, 5:02 pm

Image

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby redmanjp » March 12th, 2019, 5:04 pm

So he saying doh panic about CAl planes, but if AA flying the Max 8 to & from T&T isn't that something we should worry about? AATT should ground those planes then.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby teems1 » March 13th, 2019, 7:10 am

Why rough up the express journalist?

He states a fact. Also many countries have grounded and banned the 737 Max from their airspace until all investigations are complete.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby sMASH » March 13th, 2019, 7:13 am

massive problems with the plane and the managment of the problems, if this article is true:

https://www.businessinsider.com/pilots- ... 1VCSEeJdTg

business insdier wrote:

Pilots complained to authorities about issues with the Boeing 737 Max for months before the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash
Rosie Perper



- Several pilots made at least five complaints about Boeing 737 Max 8 planes in the months leading up to the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday, the second crash of a Boeing 737 Max 8 in recent months.
- One captain complained about the plane's autopilot system, calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient."
- "The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag," another pilot said in November.
- Boeing has suffered harsh backlash over its 737 Max planes, and several countries and airlines have grounded them for inspection.


Several pilots made at least five complaints about Boeing 737 Max 8 planes in the months leading up to the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday, the second crash of a Boeing 737 Max 8 in recent months.

US records show that at least five complaints were lodged with federal authorities in recent months, with one captain even calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient," according to the Dallas Morning News.

The complaints were made in the Federal Aviation Administration's incident database which allows pilots to report issues about aviation incidents anonymously.

The complaints highlighted issues with the Max 8's autopilot system, which has been called into question following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in October. That incident also involved a Boeing 737 Max 8 plane.

According to the black box recovered from the Lion Air crash, Flight 610 was repeatedly pushed into a dive position, most likely because of the automated system's malfunctioning sensors, a fault that began moments after it took off from Jakarta en route to Bali. All 189 people on board were killed in that crash.

Ethiopian Airlines CEO Tewolde GebreMariam told CNN that the similarities between the Lion Air crash and Sunday's crash are "substantial."

"He was having difficulties with the flight control of the airplane, so he asked to return back to base," GebreMariam said.
Complaints focused on the autopilot system
boeing 737 max 8A Boeing 737 MAX sits outside the hangar at the Boeing plant in Renton, Washington. Reuters

In one complaint, a commercial pilot described issues which occurred during takeoff. As the autopilot was engaged, the aircraft's nose suddenly pitched down, setting off the plane's alarm system which sounded "Don't sink, don't sink!" according to Politico. The situation was only remedied after autopilot was turned off, it added.

Another pilot who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was "unconscionable" that pilots were allowed to continue to fly the planes without adequate training or disclosure on how the Max 8's system differs from previous models, Politico said.

"The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error prone — even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place, and failure modes," the pilot said in the report.


In an October report, a pilot complained the Max autothrottle system did not work properly even when they were engaged. The problem was rectified after the pilot adjusted the thrust manually and continued to climb.

"Shortly afterwards I heard about the (other carrier) accident and am wondering if any other crews have experienced similar incidents with the autothrottle system on the Max?" the pilot wrote in the report.
Boeing faces backlash
boeing nyse Reuters / Brendan McDermid

Since Sunday's crash, Boeing has faced backlash over its Max planes as investigators continue to look into what happened to the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302.

Countries and airlines around the world have begun grounding Boeing 737 Max planes for inspection.

On Tuesday it was reported that Boeing's market value has plunged by $40 billion from its 2019 peak. Shares have slumped about 15% since topping out on March 1.


In response, Boeing announced that all Max planes will be receiving updated flight-control software in the coming weeks, though the company has not indicated whether it will make physical changes to the aircraft, which has been in service since last spring.

"At the heart of the controversy surrounding the 737 Max is MCAS, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System," Business Insider transportation correspondent Benjamin Zhang wrote.

"To fit the Max's larger, more fuel-efficient engines, Boeing had to redesign the way it mounts engines on the 737. This change disrupted the plane's center of gravity and caused the Max to have a tendency to tip its nose upward during flight, increasing the likelihood of a stall," Zhang said.

"MCAS is designed to automatically counteract that tendency and point the nose of the plane downward."

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby Redman » March 13th, 2019, 7:16 am

teems1 wrote:Why rough up the express journalist?

He states a fact. Also many countries have grounded and banned the 737 Max from their airspace until all investigations are complete.


Cuz panicking about CAL taking delivery in DECEMBER ignores the fact that the issue will resolve itself long before then.
That said the CAA should act....we cannot afford to be wrong.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby quietdevil » March 13th, 2019, 8:56 am

The Boeing 737 Max8 was designed to increase the airlines profit while sacrificing travelers comfort. The legroom is the least on any plane, the in-flight entertainment was removed and is now an on-board wifi system that you connect to with your phone or tablet. The headroom and toilets were also minimized...forget being part of the mile high club or even pulling up you pants without rubbing up against the walls. All this so that the plane can fly 500km more on the same gas as the 737-800. But we have no choice but to travel on the planes available for our destination. Need airline travel insurance?

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby teems1 » March 13th, 2019, 9:32 am

Redman wrote:
teems1 wrote:Why rough up the express journalist?

He states a fact. Also many countries have grounded and banned the 737 Max from their airspace until all investigations are complete.


Cuz panicking about CAL taking delivery in DECEMBER ignores the fact that the issue will resolve itself long before then.
That said the CAA should act....we cannot afford to be wrong.


He isn't talking about the CAL delivery. No one is worried about those as we have 10 months.

I'm referring to the daily AA flights which currently use the 737 Max.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby Dizzy28 » March 13th, 2019, 10:01 am

quietdevil wrote:The Boeing 737 Max8 was designed to increase the airlines profit while sacrificing travelers comfort. The legroom is the least on any plane, the in-flight entertainment was removed and is now an on-board wifi system that you connect to with your phone or tablet. The headroom and toilets were also minimized...forget being part of the mile high club or even pulling up you pants without rubbing up against the walls. All this so that the plane can fly 500km more on the same gas as the 737-800. But we have no choice but to travel on the planes available for our destination. Need airline travel insurance?


The overhead bins are much bigger than the other variants of the 737s though.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby redmanjp » March 13th, 2019, 2:56 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

US to ground all Boeing crash aircraft
4 minutes ago

President Donald Trump has issued an emergency order to ground all Boeing 737 Max aircraft following the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines jet on Sunday.

The Federal Aviation Administration had previously held out while many countries banned the aircraft from flying over their airspace.

President Trump said the planes would now be grounded until Boeing "comes up with a solution".

The US is the last country to suspend the aircraft following the disaster.

The crash in Addis Ababa killed 157 people.

It was the second fatal Max 8 disaster in five month after one crashed over Indonesia in October, killing 189 people.

Earlier on Wednesday, Canada grounded the planes after its transport minister Marc Garneau said he had received new evidence about the crash.

He said that satellite data showed possible similarities between flight patterns of Boeing 737 Max planes operating in Canada and the Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed.

He said: "As a result of new data that we received this morning, and had the chance to analyze, and on the advice of my experts and as a precautionary measure, I issued a safety notice.

"This safety notice is effective immediately and will remain in place until further notice."

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby Dizzy28 » March 13th, 2019, 3:18 pm

Effect already felt for us - AA cancelled today's flight that usually comes in around 9.30pm into Piarco.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby fozzy2010 » March 13th, 2019, 4:06 pm

tomorrow's flights have been cancelled also, on the phone with them now trying to get re-booked.

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby shake d livin wake d dead » March 13th, 2019, 4:43 pm

let's see what CAL would say now

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby eliteauto » March 13th, 2019, 4:49 pm

shake d livin wake d dead wrote:let's see what CAL would say now

say about what?

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Re: CAL just bought 12 Boeing 737 Max-8 like the one that crashed in Ethiopia today

Postby redmanjp » March 13th, 2019, 4:53 pm

shake d livin wake d dead wrote:let's see what CAL would say now


CAL not using the Max 8 now

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