Would you be comfortable with an air conditioner that uses a highly flammable refrigerant?

[nervewrecker]

Doing a little market research and was wondering what issues / fears / concerns people will have if such was adopted or introduced on our shores.

[Gladiator]

I arranged some experiments for some researchers... the charge is too small in the 1-3 Ton units to cause and explosion. The central systems however are a different story... propane BTW

[The_Honourable]

Would not be comfortable, especially since the market is flooded by fly by night persons installing air condition units.

[Gladiator]

Would not be comfortable, especially since the market is flooded by fly by night persons installing air condition units.

There is an AC tech license now just like a wireman's license. You should only use men who are licensed to install AC units... Especially when the propane units come down.

[maj. tom]

You mean like LPG or CNG units? Hell yeah! Saving a ton of money and off the grid. The only thing is that installation has to be regulated like how LPG home installations have to be inspected by RAMCO. In fact i'm guessing it would be the same where the AC tech installs the unit and RAMCO installs the LPG lines, etc. Then hook up to dual 100lb tank and do refills as needed.

If that was an option here I would be taking it before 2019 finish.



Seems like it's been done in Australia:
https://www.yanmarenergy.com.au/gas-pow ... oning.html
http://solarairconheating.com.au/gas-po ... ditioning/

[matix]

I’m interested but need a lot more info

[VexXx Dogg]

Nope.

[nervewrecker]

I arranged some experiments for some researchers... the charge is too small in the 1-3 Ton units to cause and explosion. The central systems however are a different story... propane BTW

R290, I see you have done your HW.

Central chilled water system is also a next story

Would not be comfortable, especially since the market is flooded by fly by night persons installing air condition units.

There is an AC tech license now just like a wireman's license. You should only use men who are licensed to install AC units... Especially when the propane units come down.

They calling it a permit. I keep forgetting to arrange a day to write the exam. I think NOU take it over from NTA but the objective is to have a certain calibre of techs that follow proper procedure wrt handling systems. Its no different from the traditional systems but look at the kinda headache / havoc we have?
AFAIK only these guys will be allowed to work on these systems.

I am doing some research on the issue to see if it will be something that will be welcomed or remain in the stock room because they afraid of it. You know how trinis have a way of not welcoming new technology although its not so new.

[nervewrecker]

You mean like LPG or CNG units? Hell yeah! Saving a ton of money and off the grid. The only thing is that installation has to be regulated like how LPG home installations have to be inspected by RAMCO. In fact i'm guessing it would be the same where the AC tech installs the unit and RAMCO installs the LPG lines, etc. Then hook up to dual 100lb tank and do refills as needed.

If that was an option here I would be taking it before 2019 finish.



Seems like it's been done in Australia:
https://www.yanmarenergy.com.au/gas-pow ... oning.html
http://solarairconheating.com.au/gas-po ... ditioning/

Not even gonna watch the vid or read anything, R600? Aussies have shyed away from R134A to R600 in auto.

Aussies have welcomed the HC refrigerants, we have only recently started getting them in refrigerators etc.

[nervewrecker]

Would not be comfortable, especially since the market is flooded by fly by night persons installing air condition units.

would you be comfortable if I working on it?

[maj. tom]

oh ok, what i was thinking is completely different, and in fact i had misread your topic. CNG gas powered engines that run the compressor instead of mains current. Apologies.

[Closeout Deals]

Once it colding yes. Sun too hot these days, rather go in an explosion than melt alive.

[pugboy]

Most of the Aircon fires are usually caused by the capacitors though

[The_Honourable]

Would not be comfortable, especially since the market is flooded by fly by night persons installing air condition units.

would you be comfortable if I working on it?

Yes, but knowing there is an alternative more than likely i'll stay away from flammable refrigerant.

[ruffneck_12]

Depends

But something to note is that we have tanks of gas in our kitchens with a flame at the end, seems more unsafe than an AC unit

So as long as the mechanics are VERY well done and installed, there shouldn't be a problem

[Strugglerzinc]

Do any advantages outweigh the possibility of explosion?

[powered by ?]

I would welcome it, trying to reduce my energy consumption, already have a propane water heater and dryer and saw a significant reduction in my electricity bill..

[nervewrecker]

Do any advantages outweigh the possibility of explosion?

In order for an explosion to occur you must have combustion, for combustion to occur you must have oxygen. No system has anything besides refrigerant in it (at least properly installed ones).
If for some reason someone was to go up to the evaporator with an ice pick or the likes and bore a hole in it, the refrigerant charge of an appropriately unit sized for that room is too small for an air-fuel mix that allows for combustion.
Energy consumption is under 2/3 that of conventional units.

[nervewrecker]

I see nobody has raised the issue of leaks in the system as yet....

[Gladiator]

Do any advantages outweigh the possibility of explosion?

In order for an explosion to occur you must have combustion, for combustion to occur you must have oxygen. No system has anything besides refrigerant in it (at least properly installed ones).
If for some reason someone was to go up to the evaporator with an ice pick or the likes and bore a hole in it, the refrigerant charge of an appropriately unit sized for that room is too small for an air-fuel mix that allows for combustion.
Energy consumption is under 2/3 that of conventional units.

The advantages are more related to the environment, propane being non - ozone depleting and non global warming. The efficiency is relatively the same as R410.... don't let the marketing fool you.

The other main advantage is that it can be used as a drop in replacement for R410. So you can still use your old AC and pump propane in it.

[nervewrecker]

Do any advantages outweigh the possibility of explosion?

In order for an explosion to occur you must have combustion, for combustion to occur you must have oxygen. No system has anything besides refrigerant in it (at least properly installed ones).
If for some reason someone was to go up to the evaporator with an ice pick or the likes and bore a hole in it, the refrigerant charge of an appropriately unit sized for that room is too small for an air-fuel mix that allows for combustion.
Energy consumption is under 2/3 that of conventional units.

The advantages are more related to the environment, propane being non - ozone depleting and non global warming. The efficiency is relatively the same as R410.... don't let the marketing fool you.

The other main advantage is that it can be used as a drop in replacement for R410. So you can still use your old AC and pump propane in it.

Far from the truth.

R290 is compatible with mineral and POE lubricants. It can be retrofitted into R22 systems easier because operating pressures are similar to it.

R410A operating pressures are almost double that of r290.

https://www.agaseurope.com/media/2411/r ... -chart.pdf

R-410A requires a pressure of approx 118 PSI for 5 degrees C

https://www.agaseurope.com/media/2670/r ... -chart.pdf

R-290 requires a pressure of approx 67 PSI for 5 degrees C

https://healthinnovationweekdc.com/r22- ... emp-chart/

R22 requires a pressure of 68 PSI

Because the charge / amount needed to do the same job is smaller it has a lower current draw on the compressor.

You will need to change the metering devices on R410a systems to accommodate it if its capillary tube type or the operating pressures will not allow for phase change.

R 290
Global warming potential = 3
Ozone depletion potential = 0

R 410A
Global warming potential = over 2000
Ozone depeltion potential = 0

I have in fact compared a 410A unit to an R290 unit side by side, same capacity. The R290 does in fact have a lower current draw.

I like where this discussion is going btw.

[Gladiator]

Do any advantages outweigh the possibility of explosion?

In order for an explosion to occur you must have combustion, for combustion to occur you must have oxygen. No system has anything besides refrigerant in it (at least properly installed ones).
If for some reason someone was to go up to the evaporator with an ice pick or the likes and bore a hole in it, the refrigerant charge of an appropriately unit sized for that room is too small for an air-fuel mix that allows for combustion.
Energy consumption is under 2/3 that of conventional units.

The advantages are more related to the environment, propane being non - ozone depleting and non global warming. The efficiency is relatively the same as R410.... don't let the marketing fool you.

The other main advantage is that it can be used as a drop in replacement for R410. So you can still use your old AC and pump propane in it.

Far from the truth.

R290 is compatible with mineral and POE lubricants. It can be retrofitted into R22 systems easier because operating pressures are similar to it.

R410A operating pressures are almost double that of r290.

https://www.agaseurope.com/media/2411/r ... -chart.pdf

R-410A requires a pressure of approx 118 PSI for 5 degrees C

https://www.agaseurope.com/media/2670/r ... -chart.pdf

R-290 requires a pressure of approx 67 PSI for 5 degrees C

https://healthinnovationweekdc.com/r22- ... emp-chart/

R22 requires a pressure of 68 PSI

Because the charge / amount needed to do the same job is smaller it has a lower current draw on the compressor.

You will need to change the metering devices on R410a systems to accommodate it if its capillary tube type or the operating pressures will not allow for phase change.

R 290
Global warming potential = 3
Ozone depletion potential = 0

R 410A
Global warming potential = over 2000
Ozone depeltion potential = 0

I have in fact compared a 410A unit to an R290 unit side by side, same capacity. The R290 does in fact have a lower current draw.

I like where this discussion is going btw.

The efficiency of a system has much more to it than just the system pressures. A big factor is the heat carrying capacity of the refrigerant itself.

Btw iirc higher system pressures result in increased efficiency. That is why r410 systems are more efficient than r22. If r290 has a similar operating pressure to r22 then it would be less efficient.

Please read the following paper especially section 6.2 LCCP Comparison

ARI: GLOBAL REFRIGERANT ENVIRONMENTAL
EVALUATION NETWORK (GREEN) PROGRAM

Link...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... dgqT_PdahT

[Gladiator]

An extract...

The LCCP analysis shows that when a small condenser is used for all three refrigerants,
R-404A and R-410A have 13% and 1% higher LCCP, respectively than that of R-290. However,
when the LCCP is recalculated for all three refrigerants in systems with a typical condenser, the
LCCP of R-404A is 6.5% higher than that of R-290 and the LCCP of R-410A is equal to that of
R-290. On an equal first cost basis assuming the cost increase of 10% for R-290 to meet the
safety requirements, matches the cost of the larger condenser for R-404A and R-410A, the LCCP
of R-404A and R-410A is 1.8% higher and 4.2% lower, respectively, than that of R-290.
Furthermore, it is very clear from these results that the indirect contributions dominate any
contributions from refrigerant emissions.

[nervewrecker]

Leme have my coffee and I will get back to you.

[nervewrecker]

The efficiency of a system has much more to it than just the system pressures. A big factor is the heat carrying capacity of the refrigerant itself.

Btw iirc higher system pressures result in increased efficiency. That is why r410 systems are more efficient than r22. If r290 has a similar operating pressure to r22 then it would be less efficient.

Please read the following paper especially section 6.2 LCCP Comparison

ARI: GLOBAL REFRIGERANT ENVIRONMENTAL
EVALUATION NETWORK (GREEN) PROGRAM

Link...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... dgqT_PdahT

I think you need to finish reading the article.

One test was with 3 condensers same size. Condensers are not a one size fit all. Pipe diameter has a lot to do with pressures. If you take 2 compressors with same discharge and put them in condensers -

one with 1/4" diameter line

one with 3/8" diameter line

Which of the 2 will build pressure faster? Not the one with the smaller line? Line diameter does not only influence pressures but velocity. You need to take these 2 into consideration for oil return. Its not a direct drop in.

If you look at the refrigerant charge of the r290 vs the 410 and 404 you will see the 290 required a charge of under half the amount of the other two.

Pressures do not increase efficiency, the ability to facilitate a phase change under a certain pressure is what does - the easier it is to condense and evaporate in a nutshell. You need more compression and more energy to facilitate a phase change in 410a, in fact if you start to drop pressures / charge volume current draw decreases.
I can tell you for a fact that a suction pressure of 80 PSI on a Daikin 12000 btu R410A has a current draw of 4.2A while 125 PSI is 4.9A.
Gree 24000 btu at 70 PSI suction pressure is approx 6A, 125 PSI is approx 9.8A.

Take into consideration the sub cool and superheat temps, low splits on the R290 indicating it may have needed a slightly larger charge.

The overall conclusion was more material was needed for the traditional HFC type refrigerants vs the HC R290 while the cost of HC systems had more cost due to safety issues. IIRC coated PCB's and solid state relays required as well as a sealed off / isolated control circuit section with no form of ignition or exposure to surrounding air in case of leakage. The is almost standard on some units as is (not the solid state relay).

Something else to take into consideration, they have begun phasing out R410A, so like it or not, its going bye bye. HC blends are the future -
Daikin proposed HC R32
Carrier R640 iirc
and
cant remember whom put out 1234yf as a replacement for 134A (we have r600 currently).

Out of all the proposed replacements, only R290 can be used in R22 systems. So why will you put out a refrigerant that can service a million dollar system when you can sell a new million dollar system saying there isnt a refrigerant for it?

[adnj]

There are a lot of efficiency numbers being thrown around but pressure build-up, tube diameter, current draw, etc., are not the only considerations unless you are perhaps talking about comparing the thermodynamics identical physical systems.

Ambient temperature, heat absorption, thermal delta, condenser size, compressor size, compressor material, ability to carry lubricants, etc., all have much to do with the choice of refrigerant. There are quite a few hydrocarbon refrigerants that are in use currently. All have some trade-offs.

[airuma]

Depends

But something to note is that we have tanks of gas in our kitchens with a flame at the end, seems more unsafe than an AC unit

So as long as the mechanics are VERY well done and installed, there shouldn't be a problem

Do you leave the gas to your stove on while you sleep?
Electrical connections must be properly isolated from refrigerant lines and the shell design should contain a fire suppression feature to convince me.

[adnj]

Depends

But something to note is that we have tanks of gas in our kitchens with a flame at the end, seems more unsafe than an AC unit

So as long as the mechanics are VERY well done and installed, there shouldn't be a problem

Do you leave the gas to your stove on while you sleep?
Electrical connections must be properly isolated from refrigerant lines and the shell design should contain a fire suppression feature to convince me.

I understand and agree with your concern but gas central heating is very widely used everywhere outside of the tropics/subtropics.

[nervewrecker]

Depends

But something to note is that we have tanks of gas in our kitchens with a flame at the end, seems more unsafe than an AC unit

So as long as the mechanics are VERY well done and installed, there shouldn't be a problem

Do you leave the gas to your stove on while you sleep?
Electrical connections must be properly isolated from refrigerant lines and the shell design should contain a fire suppression feature to convince me.

They usually are.

Thing is, refrigerant does not leave the system. Even if it does, the mixture (air to fuel ratio) is not sufficient for ignition should a source be present. With a leak only a small amount leaves the system and these are from faulty installs doen by men who "trying a thing". If someone was to burst open a line and let all the refrigerant out, its still not enough to start a fire.

There are systems right here in Trinidad using this years now and no issues.

The refrigerant is scented as an extra safety precaution in case of major leaks.

All relays are solid state and completely isolated from surrounding air. With inverter type, relays are sealed.

[nervewrecker]

There are a lot of efficiency numbers being thrown around but pressure build-up, tube diameter, current draw, etc., are not the only considerations unless you are perhaps talking about comparing the thermodynamics identical physical systems.

Ambient temperature, heat absorption, thermal delta, condenser size, compressor size, compressor material, ability to carry lubricants, etc., all have much to do with the choice of refrigerant. There are quite a few hydrocarbon refrigerants that are in use currently. All have some trade-offs.

Initially, HC types were used, they were phased out in favour of less efficient non flammable types due to fires from leaks and open type brushed type motors. Today we use induction type sealed motors and have been reverting back to these refrigerants because of their sheer efficiency.
Thing is, nobody seems to want to open the can of worms here yet because R410A is still marketed as the "environmentally friendly" refrigerant. Bringing a container of product and it not selling is money lost and nobody wants that.