Energy Policy-Why Not Nuclear Power for TnT?

[De Dragon]

Well no one has died and see for yourself what the analysis says about the radiation levels post accident
Here is the link -
https://www.world-nuclear.org/informati ... ident.aspx

And of course today Russia is pressing ahead on the Advanced Nuc expansion.
As are China and India
But what do they know?


Interesting info on radiation levels
https://xkcd.com/radiation/

..its different technology.

Advanced Nuclear does not involve the high pressure and the possibility of the run away reactions.
It was designed to AVOID most if not all of the pitfalls of the Gen1 and 2 reactors-Light Water Reactors.

You are making a point based on 1970 design.
Are we doing that with anything else?

" * Traditional reactor safety systems are 'active' in the sense that they involve electrical or mechanical operation on command. Some engineered systems operate passively, eg pressure relief valves. They function without operator control and despite any loss of auxiliary power. Both require parallel redundant systems. Inherent or full passive safety depends only on physical phenomena such as convection, gravity or resistance to high temperatures, not on functioning of engineered components, but these terms are not properly used to characterise whole reactors."
Their safety is based on active vs passive systems as per the website World-nuclear.org, but I'm confused as to the paragraph listed above. Are they saying that they've engineered all their safety systems to be intervention free due to the design of the reactors?

[Redman]

It seems so-BUT there are different types of the new designs so I cant say with 100% certainty that there is a single answer to your Q.

But the first MSR reactor in the 60s was walk away safe-and they used to leave it running over the weekends and go home.

Most of what Ive read indicates that the various designs today have engineered the process to be that safe--The temps get too high the nuclear reaction slows....a loss of power-the ICE plug melts and the radioactive stuff is drained into a 'sump' and cools....Plane or bomb-the Molten salt cools/solidifies irrevocably bonding to the radio active stuff-containg itself almost.

All the above stops the chain of reactions and a runaway to a meltdown or a Hydrogen explosion seems impossible(again on my limited knowledge)..
The ability to refuel online means that there less Radioactive material in the reactor at all times.

So I think the tech is close to intervention free-at least in the critical stages of a problem

[matr1x]

Any Muslim?

[De Dragon]

It seems so-BUT there are different types of the new designs so I cant say with 100% certainty that there is a single answer to your Q.

But the first MSR reactor in the 60s was walk away safe-and they used to leave it running over the weekends and go home.

Most of what Ive read indicates that the various designs today have engineered the process to be that safe--The temps get too high the nuclear reaction slows....a loss of power-the ICE plug melts and the radioactive stuff is drained into a 'sump' and cools....Plane or bomb-the Molten salt cools/solidifies irrevocably bonding to the radio active stuff-containg itself almost.

All the above stops the chain of reactions and a runaway to a meltdown or a Hydrogen explosion seems impossible(again on my limited knowledge)..
The ability to refuel online means that there less Radioactive material in the reactor at all times.

So I think the tech is close to intervention free-at least in the critical stages of a problem

Still, sheit goes wrong, even with the best engineered, redundant, active systems. That is why that paragraph bugs me, as it seems contradictory. You almost always need people to man even the best systems. There can never be a perfectly safe anything once it will be designed, built and controlled by man.

[Redman]

Well thats true of every plant we have- and again the resources we use today have been impacting health and deaths in our environment since forever.
Adding pollution related deaths and the figures jump.

But the passive nature of the say the ice plug ...means its natural physics that causes the plug to melt.
The only messup a human can cause is to remove power and the iceplug melts-
Gravity and Physics seem to be the underlying safety measures here-
But everything is relative.

[De Dragon]

^^^ Those graphs are unclear and potentially misleading. What time period are we looking at? Coal, with its mining component is always going to be inherently more deadly than nuclear, or even gas.

[Redman]

No they are clear.
Do your own research...figure it out for yourself.

[adnj]

'Heliogen said it is generating so much heat that its technology could eventually be used to create clean hydrogen at scale. That carbon-free hydrogen could then be turned into a fuel for trucks and airplanes.

"If you can make hydrogen that's green, that's a gamechanger," said Gross. "Long term, we want to be the green hydrogen company."'


Secretive energy startup backed by Bill Gates achieves solar breakthrough

By Matt Egan, CNN Business

Updated 11:04 AM ET, Tue November 19, 2019

New York (CNN Business)

A secretive startup backed by Bill Gates has achieved a solar breakthrough aimed at saving the planet.

Heliogen, a clean energy company that emerged from stealth mode on Tuesday, said it has discovered a way to use artificial intelligence and a field of mirrors to reflect so much sunlight that it generates extreme heat above 1,000 degrees Celsius.

Essentially, Heliogen created a solar oven — one capable of reaching temperatures that are roughly a quarter of what you'd find on the surface of the sun.

The breakthrough means that, for the first time, concentrated solar energy can be used to create the extreme heat required to make cement, steel, glass and other industrial processes. In other words, carbon-free sunlight can replace fossil fuels in a heavy carbon-emitting corner of the economy that has been untouched by the clean energy revolution.

While other concentrated solar companies attacked this temperature problem by adding steel to make the technology stiffer and sturdier, Heliogen and its team of scientists and engineers turned to artificial intelligence.

Heliogen uses computer vision software, automatic edge detection and other sophisticated technology to train a field of mirrors to reflect solar beams to one single spot.

"If you take a thousand mirrors and have them align exactly to a single point, you can achieve extremely, extremely high temperatures," Gross said, who added that Heliogen made its breakthrough on the first day it turned its plant on.

Heliogen said it is generating so much heat that its technology could eventually be used to create clean hydrogen at scale. That carbon-free hydrogen could then be turned into a fuel for trucks and airplanes.

"If you can make hydrogen that's green, that's a gamechanger," said Gross. "Long term, we want to be the green hydrogen company."

'No-brainer'

For now, Heliogen is squarely focused on solar. One problem with solar is that the sun doesn't always shine, yet industrial companies like cement makers have a constant need for heat. Heliogen said it would solve that issue by relying on storage systems that can hold the solar energy for rainy days.

Now that it has made this breakthrough, Heliogen will focus on demonstrating how the technology can be used in a large-scale application, such as making cement.

"We're in a race. We just want to scale as fast as possible," said Gross.

After the large-scale application, Soon-Shiong said Heliogen would likely be ready to go public.



[URL]https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business/heliogen-solar-energy-bill-gates/index.html

[/URL]

[De Dragon]

No they are clear.
Do your own research...figure it out for yourself.

What's clear? There are no dates . Coal, oil, and gas have been around for much much longer, so statistically they are going to be higher. You cannot lump all together, and selectively present data.

[adnj]

No they are clear.
Do your own research...figure it out for yourself.

What's clear? There are no dates . Coal, oil, and gas have been around for much much longer, so statistically they are going to be higher. You cannot lump all together, and selectively present data.

Nor is there any discussion of how many years of life are lost by exposure to any of the risk factors.

For instance:

A person living in a highly polluted city like New Delhi will likely lose 10 years of their lifetime due to air pollution. You will likely die after 60 years.

A person exposed to a single 400 Rem dose of radiation will likely die after only 60 days.

IMHO, the preceding arguments in favor of nuclear power here are outdated and ill-conceived.

[Redman]

Just google deaths per kwh- there are quite a bit of different graphs articles and information .....all saying basically the same thing-Nuclear is a lot less dangerous than perceived.
In an absolute sense
And relative to the other energy sources we discussing.


Many Many Many smart people are saying that Advanced Nuclear is a viable option for clean energy.
Yes Gates is still very pro Adv Nuc Tech.-2019.

[adnj]

Perhaps you would rather read an article about Gates' TerraPower that isn't ten years old.

Apparently you are unaware that Gates has also focused on solar generation (see the link above to Heliogen) to create hydrogen fuel. That project will be at scale in 2020 - nearly a decade before traveling wave reactors.

*******

Bill Gates faces "daunting" nuclear energy future

Amy Harder Jul 15, 2019

The optimism usually radiating from billionaire Bill Gates when it comes to climate change is starting to fade on one of his biggest technology bets: nuclear power.

Driving the news: The Microsoft co-founder has focused much of his time lately on climate change and energy innovation. In an exclusive interview with Axios, Gates said that setbacks he is facing with TerraPower, a nuclear technology firm he co-founded in 2006, has got him questioning the future of that entire energy source.

The big picture: At 10% of global power supply, nuclear power is the second-largest electricity source (after hydropower) that emits no carbon dioxide. It’s declining in most places around the world, including the U.S., due to aging reactors, cheaper energy alternatives and public unease about radioactive risk — despite its benefits to addressing climate change.

The industry’s future is riding on largely unproven technologies like that of TerraPower because they’re smaller and deemed safer than today’s huge reactors.

“Without this next generation of nuclear, nuclear will go to zero,” Gates said during an interview in Washington last month. Germany is shutting 22 nuclear plants, France — a leader in clean-burning nuclear power — has plans to shut down some of its reactors and a similar trend is underway in the U.S. due to economic conditions, said Gates, before adding with a sigh: “So yes, it is daunting.”

Flashback: Gates announced in December that TerraPower was scrapping plans to build a demonstration reactor in China, largely due to the Trump administration deciding that fall to crack down on technological agreements between the two nations.

“There are times like when TerraPower gets told not to work in China, you’re thinking, ‘Boy, is this thing going to come together or not?’ ” Gates said in what are his first public comments on the matter since it happened. “That was a real blow.”

Where it stands: Gates is now trying to build TerraPower’s demonstration reactor in the U.S., calling on the Energy Department and Congress to more aggressively support advanced nuclear power through more funding and new legislation. Such a plant could cost anywhere between $3-$6 billion, say experts and Gates’ energy advisers.

Bellevue, WA-based TerraPower is opening a new 65,000-square foot facility in the same region later this year to expand its research and testing, which is currently done in a lab 1/6th that size.

Gates, whose net worth is roughly $100 billion, hasn't disclosed how much money he has put toward the company, but experts think it's at least $500 million.

“If at the end of the day we don’t find a country that wants to build an advanced nuclear power plant, then TerraPower will fail. I’m going to keep funding it for a period of years. And working with the U.S. is our strategy right now.”

— Bill Gates

What they’re saying: While Gates believes TerraPower has the most viable technology with the best chance of succeeding right now, numerous companies, led by NuScale, are pursuing other kinds that experts say could succeed where TerraPower isn‘t.

On strategy:

TerraPower made a big bet in 2015 working in China and with a government-owned entity. The thinking was that China has two things America doesn’t — growing electricity demand and a long-term strategic energy plan. But…

“TerraPower made a specific decision to focus on China for their first product and it hurt them when the current administration drew hard lines on U.S.-China collaboration,” said Todd Allen, a nuclear energy expert at the centrist think tank Third Way. “Companies like NuScale that have a U.S. focus for their first deployment do not have the same issue.”

On technology:

TerraPower’s technology, called the traveling wave reactor, would produce far less waste than current ones because it converts depleted uranium already considered a waste into fuel instead of creating new waste like today's tech.

Producing less waste is a big plus because big disagreement persists on how best to store radioactive waste.

But its technology is more unproven and more complex than its counterparts, experts say, and it’s ran into specific technical challenges, The Washington Post reported earlier this year.

By contrast, the Oregon-based NuScale uses technology more rooted in today’s type, which means it doesn’t need to build a demonstration plant, its chief commercial officer, Tom Mundy, said in an interview Friday.

“TerraPower’s traveling wave may prove to be an example of a very ambitious attempt to solve a very challenging problem that has turned out to be too expensive and too difficult,” said Chris Gadomski, head of nuclear research at Bloomberg New Energy Finance. “There are other simpler, easier ways to introduce advanced technology with less technology risk and financial burden.”

What I’m watching: NuScale, the first company to work with federal regulators in this area, is expecting a key review to be done by year’s end, final design approval by the second half of next year and — if all goes as planned — a reactor operating by 2026.

[URL]https://www.axios.com/bill-gates-faces-daunting-nuclear-energy-future-6bafb442-d2a1-48c9-acd7-5492d62789a4.html
[/URL]

'Heliogen said it is generating so much heat that its technology could eventually be used to create clean hydrogen at scale. That carbon-free hydrogen could then be turned into a fuel for trucks and airplanes.

"If you can make hydrogen that's green, that's a gamechanger," said Gross. "Long term, we want to be the green hydrogen company."'


Secretive energy startup backed by Bill Gates achieves solar breakthrough

By Matt Egan, CNN Business

Updated 11:04 AM ET, Tue November 19, 2019

New York (CNN Business)

A secretive startup backed by Bill Gates has achieved a solar breakthrough aimed at saving the planet.

Heliogen, a clean energy company that emerged from stealth mode on Tuesday, said it has discovered a way to use artificial intelligence and a field of mirrors to reflect so much sunlight that it generates extreme heat above 1,000 degrees Celsius.

Essentially, Heliogen created a solar oven — one capable of reaching temperatures that are roughly a quarter of what you'd find on the surface of the sun.

The breakthrough means that, for the first time, concentrated solar energy can be used to create the extreme heat required to make cement, steel, glass and other industrial processes. In other words, carbon-free sunlight can replace fossil fuels in a heavy carbon-emitting corner of the economy that has been untouched by the clean energy revolution.

While other concentrated solar companies attacked this temperature problem by adding steel to make the technology stiffer and sturdier, Heliogen and its team of scientists and engineers turned to artificial intelligence.

Heliogen uses computer vision software, automatic edge detection and other sophisticated technology to train a field of mirrors to reflect solar beams to one single spot.

"If you take a thousand mirrors and have them align exactly to a single point, you can achieve extremely, extremely high temperatures," Gross said, who added that Heliogen made its breakthrough on the first day it turned its plant on.

Heliogen said it is generating so much heat that its technology could eventually be used to create clean hydrogen at scale. That carbon-free hydrogen could then be turned into a fuel for trucks and airplanes.

"If you can make hydrogen that's green, that's a gamechanger," said Gross. "Long term, we want to be the green hydrogen company."

'No-brainer'

For now, Heliogen is squarely focused on solar. One problem with solar is that the sun doesn't always shine, yet industrial companies like cement makers have a constant need for heat. Heliogen said it would solve that issue by relying on storage systems that can hold the solar energy for rainy days.

Now that it has made this breakthrough, Heliogen will focus on demonstrating how the technology can be used in a large-scale application, such as making cement.

"We're in a race. We just want to scale as fast as possible," said Gross.

After the large-scale application, Soon-Shiong said Heliogen would likely be ready to go public.



[URL]https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business/heliogen-solar-energy-bill-gates/index.html

[/URL]

[Redman]

Yes the video is actually labeled.
You know Gates is just one smart person?-Many Many is more than one-

But as your article clearly states-that a US POLITICAL issue...not the tech failing.The world is a big place.TerraPowers strategy incorporated China-others have bypassed the US Regulator (LEGALLY) by looking elsewhere.

Elsewhere
http://thorconpower.com/
They seem 5 years out-

https://smrllc.com/

Outside the US
Canada,China,India South Korea are also pressing forward and investing heavily.

https://www.thirdway.org/graphic/2019-a ... uclear-map

Getting to Zero Emissions by 2050

To mitigate the most serious threats posed by climate change, we must get to net-zero carbon emissions as fast, and fairly as possible. This means using every clean energy technology we have and investing in innovation to create or improve the clean energy technologies and fuels we still need to eliminate climate pollution in every sector of the economy.

One of the most promising new technologies to help get to zero carbon is advanced nuclear power, which could be paired with renewables to generate electricity, provide heat and power for industry, or produce hydrogen. Since 2015, we have been tracking the evolution of advanced nuclear innovation projects in the United States and Canada. As new industries mature, it is natural and necessary for some projects to close while others hit their stride.

The big news: the number of private sector advanced nuclear projects grew by 19% from 54 to 64 since our 2018 report, even as the overall number of projects decreased slightly (from 75 in 2018 to 71 in 2019). This shift represents an important evolution from academic research projects toward the private sector as advanced nuclear gets closer to commercialization. Other key observations:
Five companies are already working with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to prepare for licensing, and NuScale just completed the third phase of the first ever, small modular reactor design-certification application process.
While 14 university or government-funded projects, which contributed valuable research to the field, completed their funding cycles, the number of private sector projects grew from 54 to 64.
We identified three accelerator driven system projects, one advanced nuclear fuel company, eight high temperature gas reactors, 12 liquid metal-cooled fast reactors, one microreactor, nine molten salt reactors, five nuclear battery companies, eight small modular reactors, and two super-critical reactors.
Projects are spread across 24 different states and provinces. California and Washington are home to largest number of projects with 11 and 10, respectively.
Six new companies emerged from the ARPA-E Alpha fusion portfolio, helping to form the Fusion Industry Association, which now has 19 member companies. The number of overall fusion projects grew from 19 to 22.

Its been obvious that the industry is well founded,well funded,broadly analysed-and a real and viable solution for Carbon free energy generation.
IF one can let go of their ill informed and out dated points of view.
It is 2019.


Whats the land requirement for the CSP?

[De Dragon]

How about a link to a site that is NOT a partner or company selling ANT?
By the way, hydrogen is not a fun gas to deal with either.

[Redman]

Well the point was to establish that there is quite a bit of R and D away from Gates and the US.
and that there are multiple strands of development that are difference advances on the decades old technology.

And to let those inclined to read and discuss here.

What has to start happening soon is that the political directorate(s) need to get up to speed on what is possible today and match that to the realities we have to face re power generation in/for TnT.

The solution has to be based on FACT and applied knowledge,not cuz xyzabc has an opinion.

else we end up with what we have now.

which link you have an issue with?

[adnj]

Rolls-Royce Touts Nuclear Reactors as Key to Clean Jet Fuel

By 

Christopher Jasper

December 6, 2019, 7:30 AM EST
Updated on December 6, 2019, 12:38 PM EST

Synthetics, biofuels to be mainstay of aviation, CEO says

Small reactors to be used to generate required electricity

Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc is pitching nuclear reactors as the most effective way of powering the production of carbon-neutral synthetic aviation fuel without draining global electricity grids.

Drawing on technology developed for nuclear-powered submarines, the small modular reactors or SMRs could be located at individual plants to generate the large amounts of electricity needed to secure the hydrogen used in the process, according to Chief Executive Officer Warren East.

Synthetics and biofuels are likely to become the mainstay of aviation in coming decades, East said, providing liquid propellants for the next generation of aero-engines before the advent of all-electric alternatives. Reactors that could power the hydrogen extraction are small enough to be transported by truck and would occupy a building one-10th the size of a nuclear power station.

An SMR attached to a synthetic fuel plant would “provide a very competitive solution,” East said in a briefing at the Aviation Club in London. Electricity costs would be 30% lower than for a large nuclear facility, matching wind power, with the modular approach allowing parts to be made on a factory production line.

So-called electrofuels are synthesized using carbon dioxide or carbon monoxide captured from sources such as cement production, together with hydrogen derived from water via electrolysis, itself powered by sustainable electricity sources such as wind, solar or nuclear. In the future, direct carbon capture from the atmosphere could sever any link with fossil sources.

London-based Rolls-Royce, Europe’s biggest maker of jetliner engines, would partner with a petrochemical specialist or alternative-energy startup to develop the technology, East said.

The proposals face significant obstacles, including widespread public concern about radiation leaks and the safe disposal of nuclear waste, as well as question marks over U.K. plans to revive the sector after Hitachi Ltd. and Toshiba Corp. withdrew from major projects.

Rolls aims to minimize regulatory barriers by building an initial network of 16 SMRs on the sites of former U.K. nuclear power stations still approved for atomic use.

The plants, costing 1.8 billion pounds ($2.4 billion) apiece, would feed the national grid and come online from the 2030s, with all complete by 2050.

[URL]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-06/rolls-royce-pitches-nuclear-reactors-as-key-to-clean-jet-fuel
[/URL]

[agent007]

hi guys, i have a question

In T&T we have 2 power plants, Powergen at Pt. lisas and TGU at La Brea right?

So that's 720MW + 819MW respectively for a total of 1539MW.

My next question is, we won't be needing additional power plants in a hurry right? With solar power on the rise and the energy sector with reduced operations, we should be good to go for many years to come right?

[teems1]

It depends on the demand.

Consumption by households is actually very low. Only like 150MW required.

It's the industries which utilize the lion's share.

Mittal and TCL were the 2 highest consumers using 200+MW each.

Now that Mittal is mothballed, and other plants are closing down in Pt. Lisas we don't have to produce as much.

hi guys, i have a question

In T&T we have 2 power plants, Powergen at Pt. lisas and TGU at La Brea right?

So that's 720MW + 819MW respectively for a total of 1539MW.

My next question is, we won't be needing additional power plants in a hurry right? With solar power on the rise and the energy sector with reduced operations, we should be good to go for many years to come right?

[Redman]

Depends when the Nat Gas runs out -reserves vs usage.

Depends on how soon we can scale up Solar to meet the demand in 20 whenever.

@teems- i thought we on take or pay with TGU and Powergen?

[agent007]

ahh exactly what I was looking for. Thanks guys.

[Dizzy28]

hi guys, i have a question

In T&T we have 2 power plants, Powergen at Pt. lisas and TGU at La Brea right?

So that's 720MW + 819MW respectively for a total of 1539MW.

My next question is, we won't be needing additional power plants in a hurry right? With solar power on the rise and the energy sector with reduced operations, we should be good to go for many years to come right?

Powergen, Penal
Trinity Power, Pt Lisas
Cove, Tobago
Scarbrough, Tobago

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Depends when the Nat Gas runs out -reserves vs usage.

Depends on how soon we can scale up Solar to meet the demand in 20 whenever.

@teems- i thought we on take or pay with TGU and Powergen?

What about wind farms on the east coast of Trinidad?

[Redman]

Depends when the Nat Gas runs out -reserves vs usage.

Depends on how soon we can scale up Solar to meet the demand in 20 whenever.

@teems- i thought we on take or pay with TGU and Powergen?

What about wind farms on the east coast of Trinidad?

Putting the generation on the East coast with Demand on the west coast might mean a transmission network.
How much Wind power can we generate at peak load hours would be another hurdle-
How much wind power can we generate in terms of the space we have and the issues that come with that infrastructure.
I think its about 1.2M USD per MW in Turbine cost-as a GENERAL rule of thumb.

Im on record that Nuclear is something that we need to look at if it is that Nat Gas over the long term is becoming questionable- one site has us at 14 years of NG reserves at pre covid levels.

[maj. tom]

Electric Vehicles becoming standard within 30 years may send up our electricity consumption, while bringing down refined gasoline needs. Hopefully Governments will invest the infrastructure to upgrade the Grid over time, for when that time comes.

Wind farms are definitely a secure future for power generation worldwide. Solar... working on it, but when it is established think about the unlimited energy available for human development.

[agent007]

Dizzy thanks so the combined list is:

Scarborough Power Station - 11MW
Cove Power Station - 65.6MW
POWERGEN PT Lisas: 838MW
POWERGEN POS: 270MW
POWERGEN Penal: 236MW
Trinity: 226.5MW
Union Estate/TGU: 720MW

T&T total: 2,367.1MW

However according to wikipedia, in terms of electricity production, T&T is #96 in a list of 210 countries where the measurement is in GWh and our posted figure is 10,300.

I think it's about time we get less dependent on the conventional grid and focus a lot more on windmills and solar power.

On the flipside, with the expected increase in popularity of electric vehicles, the grid should be able to handle the additional demand of plug-in items.

I'm seeing a local company selling electric lawn mowers, leaf blowers and weed wackers etc.

My aim is to keep my fridge, water heater, ac units, water pump and microwave oven connected to T&TEC's meter (for now). But where lights, gate motors, electronics, appliances and most power tools are concerned, I want a battery pack charged via solar to handle those items but connected to a separate panel.

Also from an infrastructure POV, all traffic lights and street lights in T&T should be solar powered and govt buildings should have mandatory solar panels to augment current supply.

[Dizzy28]

^ Powergen PoS has to be taken out of consideration.

Also Shell and BP are in an arrangement with GORTT for the provision of 130MW of renewable power. This was announced earlier this year and was awarded after an RFP process by MEEI.

[pugboy]

europe is loaded with wind turbines
they get a lot of static with the bird kills though

[88sins]

Depends when the Nat Gas runs out -reserves vs usage.

Depends on how soon we can scale up Solar to meet the demand in 20 whenever.

@teems- i thought we on take or pay with TGU and Powergen?

beat me to it

[88sins]

europe is loaded with wind turbines
they get a lot of static with the bird kills though

It's not really an option locals would consider to fulfill the country's energy needs, because there's a problem with consistency of windspeeds to consider in the areas where our power generation needs are currently fulfilled.
Simply put, not enough wind blows with sufficient velocity and consistently enough. Not saying it's impossible, but to do it here either the towers will need to be VERY high in comparison to what you find in most places, or at a better location lthat allows for greater windflow. Then there's the cost & problems involved in implementing a method of move that power from generation location to distribution hub, and storing said power also.

[pugboy]

yeah, lot of them are real tall
only in wide flat places they are shorter

took this pic in frankfurt last year around 15k ft in the air