Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten will run out of money in weeks.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Dutch Caribbean Islands on the Brink

Time is running out for the autonomous Dutch islands in the Caribbean to do a deal with their former colonizer.

Coronavirus has brought tourism, the mainstay of the island economies, close to a standstill. Tax revenue has dried up while unemployment has soared. Without support from the European Netherlands, the governments of Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten will run out of money in weeks.

The Dutch are willing to help, but only if the islands accept temporary Dutch administrators to manage reforms. For most of the Caribbean politicians, this goes too far.

https://atlanticsentinel.com/2020/09/du ... the-brink/

[Numb3r4]

So we're back to square one then?

Are we going to do a deal with the British?

[killercow]

So we're back to square one then?

Are we going to do a deal with the British?

How / why would we make a deal with the British? They are autonomous countries but not independent / Republic. The British has no obligation to us. Islands which use the Eastern Caribbean currency however can still probably try their luck with the British.

[Numb3r4]

^^^ Dude relax it was a joke.

[maj. tom]

I don't think it's unreasonable. These countries are part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Plus there has been a history where the Dutch Government has given assistance and even made sure that they complied with democratic elections and budgetary planning and offered assistance with Oil Refinery deals with the Chinese. If they were an autonomous Republic things would be different. I don't disagree with the Crown here.

Sept. 9, 2020

THE HAGUE - The Second Chamber Committee for Kingdom Relations debated today with Undersecretary Raymond Knops about the offer from the Netherlands to help Curaçao, Aruba and Sint Maarten with new loans of many hundreds of millions through the corona crisis.

All Members of Parliament present believe it is justified that the Netherlands imposes strict conditions, including supervision by a reform entity to be formed by the Netherlands that must ensure that Dutch tax money benefits the citizens and does not end up in the wrong pockets. Chris van Dam (CDA), Antje Diertens (D66), Nevin Özütok (GroenLinks) and Attje Kuiken (PvdA) urged Knops to make an effort to reach consensus with the countries.

André Bosman (VVD) and Ronald van Raak (SP) lashed out at the politicians in the Caribbean countries who in their eyes are more concerned with their own interests than that of their people. They pointed, among other things, to the recent decision of Curaçao to increase the ministerial salaries, but also to the "selective" collection of taxes.
https://www.curacaochronicle.com/post/m ... onditions/

[MDtuner70]

I might get lix for saying this but I really wish sometimes that we were still under British rule as a "British Overseas Territory", for eg like Cayman Islands.

So we get still get all the bells and whistles of today's ideologies, democratic dependency etc but we are managed by the British. This would remove sooo many issues we face as a nation, but undoubtedly bring in others I guess...

[racedriverpro]

Caribbean ppl just like to palance...

[Redress10]

I might get lix for saying this but I really wish sometimes that we were still under British rule as a "British Overseas Territory", for eg like Cayman Islands.

So we get still get all the bells and whistles of today's ideologies, democratic dependency etc but we are managed by the British. This would remove sooo many issues we face as a nation, but undoubtedly bring in others I guess...

Britain operate via a class system. We wpuld be considered the lowest class as an overseas territory etc. Words such as "natives". The best jobs and "living" would go to their citizens mainly white, upper class and connected. The rest of the population would just be used to service this class of people.

Just imagine that most trinis only know of britain via its footballers. Wealthy footballers such as Rooney etc are worth over 150 million pounds and are still technically considered low class.

Our best bet was to follow singapore and become wealthy and technologically advanced. The problems we facing today is down to the fact that we held onto too much of british identities and customs instead of forming our own.

[Blaze d Chalice]

The Dutch are willing to help, but only if the islands accept temporary Dutch administrators to manage reforms. For most of the Caribbean politicians, this goes too far.

Well here is a suggestion......Why don't Caribbean politicians just hull their MCs?

Our best bet was to follow singapore and become wealthy and technologically advanced. The problems we facing today is down to the fact that we held onto too much of british identities and customs instead of forming our own.

Nah boi, Singapore is Chinee-looking people.
We cyar follow dem.
We must only follow massa (while bawling things like "Massa day done" mind you)
We only like spoon feed and free ting.

[Ben_spanna]

The Dutch are willing to help, but only if the islands accept temporary Dutch administrators to manage reforms. For most of the Caribbean politicians, this goes too far.

Well here is a suggestion......Why don't Caribbean politicians just hull their MCs?

Our best bet was to follow singapore and become wealthy and technologically advanced. The problems we facing today is down to the fact that we held onto too much of british identities and customs instead of forming our own.

Nah boi, Singapore is Chinee-looking people.
We cyar follow dem.
We must only follow massa (while bawling things like "Massa day done" mind you)
We only like spoon feed and free ting.

Because a majority of our population are lazy, uneducated ignorant and our political parties keep them exactly that way... then theres the mindset of the people that still love to use slavery as their excuse to blame the world for all of their problems whilst they use that to live a life of supposed oppression and criminality.... this place will never ever change until its mindset and culture changes, it will not matter who is in charge... it will onyl change when the authorities put their foot down 100%, no more blighs, no more freebies, if you even try to break a red light you should get fined..... we need to change our thought patterns...

[death365]

im sure China-man waiting to take over .... Aruba, Curaçao have oil and maybe gas too

Sint Maarten ... just to piss off the rest of the world

[Redress10]

The problem is we are led by inferiors. The two major races are the descendants of either african slaves or indentured labourers. These two races were never taught anything about leadership, governance or economic development.

Our idea of leadership come from the same colonial masters we claim to be independent from. That is why we have an independence day parade with a president who mimics the queen. Our education system is not based on making our citizens globally competitive or attractive but is based on limiting access to quality education to limit opportunities for the less connected.

Massa day done was simply a ruse to get ppl to believe that hard work was akin to slavery and indentureship. The reality is that the average trini saw it as an opportunity to become lazy and ineffecient. As the world was advancing and becoming more efficient, we started to regress.

The singapore model was simple. Everyone pull their weight. Develop singaporians to the level where they become globally competitive and use this knowledge base for the development of the country.

[Dizzy28]

The problem is we are led by inferiors. The two major races are the descendants of either african slaves or indentured labourers. These two races were never taught anything about leadership, governance or economic development.

Our idea of leadership come from the same colonial masters we claim to be independent from. That is why we have an independence day parade with a president who mimics the queen. Our education system is not based on making our citizens globally competitive or attractive but is based on limiting access to quality education to limit opportunities for the less connected.

Massa day done was simply a ruse to get ppl to believe that hard work was akin to slavery and indentureship. The reality is that the average trini saw it as an opportunity to become lazy and ineffecient. As the world was advancing and becoming more efficient, we started to regress.

The singapore model was simple. Everyone pull their weight. Develop singaporians to the level where they become globally competitive and use this knowledge base for the development of the country.

The Singapore model was based on dictatorship. Even today Singapore has much less freedoms than we or contemporary western nations do.
Censorship, social media controls and even banning of certain religions such as Jehovah Witnesses.

[teems1]

I might get lix for saying this but I really wish sometimes that we were still under British rule as a "British Overseas Territory", for eg like Cayman Islands.

So we get still get all the bells and whistles of today's ideologies, democratic dependency etc but we are managed by the British. This would remove sooo many issues we face as a nation, but undoubtedly bring in others I guess...

Britain operate via a class system. We wpuld be considered the lowest class as an overseas territory etc. Words such as "natives". The best jobs and "living" would go to their citizens mainly white, upper class and connected. The rest of the population would just be used to service this class of people.

Just imagine that most trinis only know of britain via its footballers. Wealthy footballers such as Rooney etc are worth over 150 million pounds and are still technically considered low class.

Our best bet was to follow singapore and become wealthy and technologically advanced. The problems we facing today is down to the fact that we held onto too much of british identities and customs instead of forming our own.

That class system is a remnant of the old aristocracy which has been diluted to the point where it's a non entity. Many of the posh "old money" class are struggling to keep their grand houses/estates afloat and are being forced into administration.

You're more prone to being called a p*ki or n word by some pro Brexit loser than being oppressed by someone in the so called "upper class".

As for the Singapore model, it's not applicable here in Trinidad. You can't get blood from a stone. Our CXC failure rate for English A and Math hovers around 50%.

Try picking up a Singapore Cambridge A level Maths or Further Maths paper. I accidentally bought the Singapore past paper book when I was doing A levels without knowing they get a different level of exam.

Question 1 part a is more difficult than the entire UK/Caribbean paper.

Also the norm in Singapore is 4 A level subjects + GP while Trinidad is 2 or 3 subjects and GP.

[Redress10]

Teems

That old aristocracy system is very much alive and hasn't been watered down as much as you think. It's kept alive via the education system that is still classist and to a point racist. Old money is only rivalled by russian,chinese or arab oil money. It takes the world's super wealthy to compete with England's old money. So having a castle or estate go into administration doesn't really mean much. The families simply may not care to administer over the estate or deal with the taxes etc.

Being systematically oppressed is different to being called a paki or "n" word by some brexit loser. The upper classes simply don't have to deal with you and can erect class barriers to ensure this. This would take the form of wealth, status and education. Things that would not be easily attainable to people who are upper class.

Our failing education system is the result of failing leadership that doesn't have any plan for its citizens. Singapore has a plan for its citizens so their education system is more rigourous and demanding.

[VexXx Dogg]

This was a good convo with some buddies from work.
At the risk of oversimplifying a complex issue, it seems they want autonomy and dependence at the same time.

If you want financial help, but it comes with conditions about management/oversight - suck it up and deal.

That's like going to the IMF for bailout but then saying "we good, thanks" when they give you the list of measures.

[Blaze d Chalice]

The Singapore model was based on dictatorship. Even today Singapore has much less freedoms than we or contemporary western nations do.
Censorship, social media controls and even banning of certain religions such as Jehovah Witnesses.

You can't change people thinking and mentality overnight or even in one election term.
For a case like Trinidad, the Singapore model would have been ideal.
A dictatorship with the right priorities would have worked wonders.
Trinis have shown that they cannot "move" unless a big stick, whip or belt is hovering near them at all times.

Unfortunately PNM stood for a complete 180 of what LKY them stood for, so is no wonder TT is the total opposite of Singapore.

[Rovin]

we cud give dem rowdy & imbutt to save their country same way how they saved T&T when kams left $$$ in treasury to only run it for 3 days ..... if they saved T&T imagine what they cud for them

[Redress10]

The Singapore model was based on dictatorship. Even today Singapore has much less freedoms than we or contemporary western nations do.
Censorship, social media controls and even banning of certain religions such as Jehovah Witnesses.

You can't change people thinking and mentality overnight or even in one election term.
For a case like Trinidad, the Singapore model would have been ideal.
A dictatorship with the right priorities would have worked wonders.
Trinis have shown that they cannot "move" unless a big stick, whip or belt is hovering near them at all times.

Unfortunately PNM stood for a complete 180 of what LKY them stood for, so is no wonder TT is the total opposite of Singapore.

Everywhere is a dictatorship. The USA and western europe is a different form of dictatorship and trinis know this.

That is why when trinis go away they become well behaved and respectful of the law. All the hardships that trinis in USA face, why don't the protest the same way they protest in TT. Why don't they slack off on work over there the same way they slack off in TT?

Western dictatorships is based on economics and capitalism. You are only as free as what you can afford. The more money you have then the more "freedoms" you can buy.

Trinis have the worst and most unproductive culture and it started with carnival. The carnival culture mashing up the country. Trinis always need to have a "good time". Other cultures embrace hardship, harsh conditions and the lessons that come from them. We never even had to rebuild after a major disaster, war or farmine etc.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The Singapore model was based on dictatorship. Even today Singapore has much less freedoms than we or contemporary western nations do.
Censorship, social media controls and even banning of certain religions such as Jehovah Witnesses.

You can't change people thinking and mentality overnight or even in one election term.
For a case like Trinidad, the Singapore model would have been ideal.
A dictatorship with the right priorities would have worked wonders.
Trinis have shown that they cannot "move" unless a big stick, whip or belt is hovering near them at all times.

Unfortunately PNM stood for a complete 180 of what LKY them stood for, so is no wonder TT is the total opposite of Singapore.

In the 1960's Singapore and T&T were like economic twins - they were almost identical.
The Singaporean leader went to Jamaica back then to see how things were being run there as they were doing better than Singapore at the time. Today, Singapore has one of the most successful and vibrant economies in the world. This was no easy feat, and highlighted the qualities that made Lee Kuan Yew an outstanding leader
This is Singapore today

https://medium.com/@carla.ibanzo/singap ... 17b8699e15

[rebound]

I lived in Aruba for a few years and tue locals had a serious dependancy on the Dutch, they were very lazy and always in beach mode.. with the loss of tourist money now, I can see how they are in this jam now.

[Blaze d Chalice]

Yes I agree @ Redress
Trinis never experience 'real hardship'
Yes some people get flooded out constantly in some areas but this Corvette19 thing is the first big thing to hit in decades and everyone is at risk, not just people from Barrackpore and Maloney, and they still need to have a "good time"

Bet you anything if we reach 5 figures by December and they say "Well the numbers rising anyhow you take it, better we squeeze in one last Carnival now before it get way higher" - bands/costumes/drinks will be sold out within 24-48 hrs.

[Dizzy28]

The Singapore model was based on dictatorship. Even today Singapore has much less freedoms than we or contemporary western nations do.
Censorship, social media controls and even banning of certain religions such as Jehovah Witnesses.

You can't change people thinking and mentality overnight or even in one election term.
For a case like Trinidad, the Singapore model would have been ideal.
A dictatorship with the right priorities would have worked wonders.
Trinis have shown that they cannot "move" unless a big stick, whip or belt is hovering near them at all times.

Unfortunately PNM stood for a complete 180 of what LKY them stood for, so is no wonder TT is the total opposite of Singapore.

In the 1960's Singapore and T&T were like economic twins - they were almost identical.
The Singaporean leader went to Jamaica back then to see how things were being run there as they were doing better than Singapore at the time. Today, Singapore has one of the most successful and vibrant economies in the world. This was no easy feat, and highlighted the qualities that made Lee Kuan Yew an outstanding leader
This is Singapore today

Singapore-600.jpg

https://medium.com/@carla.ibanzo/singap ... 17b8699e15

Trini Tuner's Ole Talk section in all likelihood would not exist under Singapore's laws though. Many of the daily posts here would run afoul of any number of laws. Progress came at a stiff cost to Singapore.
Google Amos Yee

[Blaze d Chalice]

In the 1960's Singapore and T&T were like economic twins - they were almost identical.
The Singaporean leader went to Jamaica back then to see how things were being run there as they were doing better than Singapore at the time. Today, Singapore has one of the most successful and vibrant economies in the world. This was no easy feat, and highlighted the qualities that made Lee Kuan Yew an outstanding leader
This is Singapore today

Singapore-600.jpg

https://medium.com/@carla.ibanzo/singap ... 17b8699e15

Yeah because LKY had a vision and wanted to make his country a better place.

If Jamaica was doing better than Trinidad and the TT leader went to Jamaica to see how things were being run, he would take note of these things and put it in a list of "Things we will never ever do in Trinidad"

In 1990 LKY rule ended, whereas in 1990 we had a coup.
Good thing LKY didn't take anything material from Jamaica or else they might have wanted to demand reparations for making Singapore a good place at the expense of Jamaica.

Another thing people forget is that when you raise your country to a higher standard, it doesn't magically stay like that, you have to keep upholding it and that is one shortcoming of trinis.

Few people have that kind of attitude and 'drive'
You mostly see this type of thing in Asian countries and a few European like Germany (talking about China/Taiwan/Japan/Korea asians etc) not India/Pakistan/all the Stans.

With all that being said, why doesn't King Growlers offer to host some of these people.
I mean we take some Venez and Trinis bawling "no more, dais enough"
How do you think they would react to this new group?
St.Maarten population - 75000 - that means we could have taken in all of them comfortably.

[zoom rader]

In the 1960's Singapore and T&T were like economic twins - they were almost identical.
The Singaporean leader went to Jamaica back then to see how things were being run there as they were doing better than Singapore at the time. Today, Singapore has one of the most successful and vibrant economies in the world. This was no easy feat, and highlighted the qualities that made Lee Kuan Yew an outstanding leader
This is Singapore today

Singapore-600.jpg

https://medium.com/@carla.ibanzo/singap ... 17b8699e15

Yeah because LKY had a vision and wanted to make his country a better place.

If Jamaica was doing better than Trinidad and the TT leader went to Jamaica to see how things were being run, he would take note of these things and put it in a list of "Things we will never ever do in Trinidad"

In 1990 LKY rule ended, whereas in 1990 we had a coup.
Good thing LKY didn't take anything material from Jamaica or else they might have wanted to demand reparations for making Singapore a good place at the expense of Jamaica.

Another thing people forget is that when you raise your country to a higher standard, it doesn't magically stay like that, you have to keep upholding it and that is one shortcoming of trinis.

Few people have that kind of attitude and 'drive'
You mostly see this type of thing in Asian countries and a few European like Germany (talking about China/Taiwan/Japan/Korea asians etc) not India/Pakistan/all the Stans.

With all that being said, why doesn't King Growlers offer to host some of these people.
I mean we take some Venez and Trinis bawling "no more, dais enough"
How do you think they would react to this new group?
St.Maarten population - 75000 - that means we could have taken in all of them comfortably.

King Growlers went to Ghana, so he learning from them.

[Redress10]

The Singapore model was based on dictatorship. Even today Singapore has much less freedoms than we or contemporary western nations do.
Censorship, social media controls and even banning of certain religions such as Jehovah Witnesses.

You can't change people thinking and mentality overnight or even in one election term.
For a case like Trinidad, the Singapore model would have been ideal.
A dictatorship with the right priorities would have worked wonders.
Trinis have shown that they cannot "move" unless a big stick, whip or belt is hovering near them at all times.

Unfortunately PNM stood for a complete 180 of what LKY them stood for, so is no wonder TT is the total opposite of Singapore.

In the 1960's Singapore and T&T were like economic twins - they were almost identical.
The Singaporean leader went to Jamaica back then to see how things were being run there as they were doing better than Singapore at the time. Today, Singapore has one of the most successful and vibrant economies in the world. This was no easy feat, and highlighted the qualities that made Lee Kuan Yew an outstanding leader
This is Singapore today

Singapore-600.jpg

https://medium.com/@carla.ibanzo/singap ... 17b8699e15

That's because LKY looked past their colonial masters and looked towards where the world would be. He positioned Singapore to be the best in the world. Our leaders looked towards the colonial powers and transplanted everything here except the productivity and purpose. So instead of technology centers and investment banks we got country clubs and cricket clubs.

Our "elitism" didn't come via excellence and accomplishments but instead via access and association. If the individual is not being forced to strive for excellence then the country can't progress. Most trinis don't even know the link between their level of productivity and the country's gdp. Most trinis don't even know what a gdp is or means. Most trinis don't even know how the gdp has an impact on currency value or the goods that can be traded.

Most trinis don't know what it is they really suppose to know. Our education system has failed.

[teems1]

The Singapore model was based on dictatorship. Even today Singapore has much less freedoms than we or contemporary western nations do.
Censorship, social media controls and even banning of certain religions such as Jehovah Witnesses.

You can't change people thinking and mentality overnight or even in one election term.
For a case like Trinidad, the Singapore model would have been ideal.
A dictatorship with the right priorities would have worked wonders.
Trinis have shown that they cannot "move" unless a big stick, whip or belt is hovering near them at all times.

Unfortunately PNM stood for a complete 180 of what LKY them stood for, so is no wonder TT is the total opposite of Singapore.

In the 1960's Singapore and T&T were like economic twins - they were almost identical.
The Singaporean leader went to Jamaica back then to see how things were being run there as they were doing better than Singapore at the time. Today, Singapore has one of the most successful and vibrant economies in the world. This was no easy feat, and highlighted the qualities that made Lee Kuan Yew an outstanding leader
This is Singapore today

Singapore-600.jpg

https://medium.com/@carla.ibanzo/singap ... 17b8699e15

That's because LKY looked past their colonial masters and looked towards where the world would be. He positioned Singapore to be the best in the world. Our leaders looked towards the colonial powers and transplanted everything here except the productivity and purpose. So instead of technology centers and investment banks we got country clubs and cricket clubs.

Our "elitism" didn't come via excellence and accomplishments but instead via access and association. If the individual is not being forced to strive for excellence then the country can't progress. Most trinis don't even know the link between their level of productivity and the country's gdp. Most trinis don't even know what a gdp is or means. Most trinis don't even know how the gdp has an impact on currency value or the goods that can be traded.

Most trinis don't know what it is they really suppose to know. Our education system has failed.

You're describing the symptom and not the cause.

Nepotism and cronyism are the main contributors to how we are today. More so in public and state enterprise than in the private sector. You can go even deeper and say these 2 are side effects of capitalism.

Why study or work hard, when you have a job lined up at XYZ state enterprise.

Why bother making your company more efficient when you're guaranteed to win the contract.

[Redress10]

Teems

They practicing what they saw the colonials do. The cause is brainwashing because of the inferiority complex bred into them for generations. Similar to trinis preference for "light skin". In Trinidad as long as you are light skinned you are considered automatically attractive. A case in point is the attention given to them venezuelan women who probably constitute the dregs of venezuelan society. But they are treated like royalty by trini men because of their skin color.

So they would have witnessed the colonial powers showing favouritism to their own white nationals and white adjacent trinis (local whites). They would have seen the higher quality of life these people were able to enjoy. The nepotism and cronyism started with the colonials because they would have had their country clubs and cricket clubs where they barred darker skinned people and had selective entry requirements. It is in these meetings that issues of government and contracts would be sorted and shared amongst members.

What Singapore did was to remove that notion of privilege and attach advancement based on meritocracy. What we did was imported the old english way of old boys networks and familial ties as a way to advance in society. We just codified it via political parties.

All of would have resulted in the select few gaining access to the country's treasury to benefit close friends and families who then share with their close friends and families (who you know).

Remember all of our leaders were born pre independence. They grew up under colonial rule. It is all they knew. Just think about Kamlamania and they way she was presented to the country as some sort of "Queen". Not a president but a queen. Her notion of a female leader is the Queen of England and not Angela Merkel etc.

[teems1]

Kamla was 10 and Rowley 12 when Trinidad got independence.

I doubt they were interested in the inner workings of country and cricket clubs as a bunch of pre pubescent kids.

It's been 58 years since independence. It's time to stop blaming the UK and try to fix your country.

It may be too late now as the 1% owns the ruling party and have entrenched themselves deeply within the state funds.

I guess massa day never ended.

[zoom rader]

Kamla was 10 and Rowley 12 when Trinidad got independence.

I doubt they were interested in the inner workings of country and cricket clubs as a bunch of pre pubescent kids.

It's been 58 years since independence. It's time to stop blaming the UK and try to fix your country.

It may be too late now as the 1% owns the ruling party and have entrenched themselves deeply within the state funds.

I guess massa day never ended.

You understand the play and PNM ppl think they are free