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CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby *$kїđž!™ » July 5th, 2018, 8:26 pm

Ted_v2 wrote:CNG is the way for gasoline vehicles, not making sense in small diesel pickups.
Why not?....i spend $200 for close to 800km ....in diesel....
800km in cng would be 14 × 4 full ups = $56......thats still plenty savings....please correct me if im wrong....

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby nervewrecker » July 5th, 2018, 10:12 pm

And whats the cost of the kit plus installation?

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby Ted_v2 » July 10th, 2018, 8:22 pm

last price i heard was 25K

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby Kronik » July 10th, 2018, 8:38 pm

What do you get back from a CNG kit installation when you file tax returns?

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby nervewrecker » July 11th, 2018, 10:37 pm

Unless the government get serious about cng its not convenient for most people to fill it.

I aint spending that kinda money on a kit to go out my way in order to purchase fuel in order to save..

Not worth it in my book.

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby adnj » July 11th, 2018, 10:56 pm

Ted_v2 wrote:CNG is the way for gasoline vehicles, not making sense in small diesel pickups.
If it's a turbo diesel with fuel injection, it's a fairly involved process that requires an engine rebuild.

But I have heard of systems that inject NG into the air intake of a turbo diesel. I suppose that you have to remap the ECU and then buy two different fuels.

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby supernedd » July 12th, 2018, 5:56 am

*$kїđž![emoji769] wrote:
Ted_v2 wrote:CNG is the way for gasoline vehicles, not making sense in small diesel pickups.
Why not?....i spend $200 for close to 800km ....in diesel....
800km in cng would be 14 × 4 full ups = $56......thats still plenty savings....please correct me if im wrong....
yea boi diesel almost d same price as super.. the only good thing ..it doesn't burn as fast .. but still expensive now .. sigh .. country sickening

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby adnj » July 12th, 2018, 9:17 am

supernedd wrote:yea boi diesel almost d same price as super.. the only good thing ..it doesn't burn as fast .. but still expensive now .. sigh .. country sickening


Right now, diesel costs TT$6.80/liter in Canada.



*$kїđž![emoji769] wrote:[Why not?....i spend $200 for close to 800km ....in diesel....
800km in cng would be 14 × 4 full ups = $56......thats still plenty savings....please correct me if im wrong....


That's about $150 savings per tank.

Most people drive about 25,000 km per year or less. That's about 31 fillups.

You save $4,650 per year.

Assuming that the conversion costs between $25k and $40k (as stated earlier), you get your money back between 5-1/2 and 8-1/2 years later. Longer if you calculate for interest.

If you drive more than 100,000 km per year, the payback for the conversion is about 2 years or less and starts to make more sense.

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby nervewrecker » July 12th, 2018, 9:51 am

adnj wrote:
Ted_v2 wrote:CNG is the way for gasoline vehicles, not making sense in small diesel pickups.
If it's a turbo diesel with fuel injection, it's a fairly involved process that requires an engine rebuild.

But I have heard of systems that inject NG into the air intake of a turbo diesel. I suppose that you have to remap the ECU and then buy two different fuels.
Propane injection is popular in the usa.

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby kamakazi » July 12th, 2018, 2:39 pm

adnj wrote:
Ted_v2 wrote:CNG is the way for gasoline vehicles, not making sense in small diesel pickups.
If it's a turbo diesel with fuel injection, it's a fairly involved process that requires an engine rebuild.

But I have heard of systems that inject NG into the air intake of a turbo diesel. I suppose that you have to remap the ECU and then buy two different fuels.
Why does it require a rebuild.... What components need changing

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby adnj » July 19th, 2018, 9:24 pm

There has to be gas injection into the air intake, an added ignition system and probably a change to the glow plugs or the glow plug control. And you probably get a HP decrease.

In my experience, truck engines converted by the manufacturer to LPG or CNG always started with an IC engine and were preferred for package delivery, airport limosines and city buses.

For turbo diesels, you get performance increases by replacing air with an air/fuel mix that works by boosting octane in the cylinder. I have seen that in off-road truck racing but I don't know of any kits but there are builders that sell new trucks already converted.

kamakazi wrote:
adnj wrote:
Ted_v2 wrote:CNG is the way for gasoline vehicles, not making sense in small diesel pickups.
If it's a turbo diesel with fuel injection, it's a fairly involved process that requires an engine rebuild.

But I have heard of systems that inject NG into the air intake of a turbo diesel. I suppose that you have to remap the ECU and then buy two different fuels.
Why does it require a rebuild.... What components need changing

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby nervewrecker » July 19th, 2018, 9:27 pm

I was doing some reading and somewhere said that they may not need spark plugs as the mixture gets so hot when compressed it ignites on its own.
May be wrong

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby adnj » July 19th, 2018, 10:06 pm

^^ I don't see why you couldn't make it work without a spark. Diesels do.

The spark would give better control of ignition timing to smooth out the combustion cycle. You could also direct inject the NG but that depends on the engine. Diesel injection goes from about 1500 psi to above 30,000 psi. CNG is about 4000 PSI in the tank at max pressure but you could have a pressure boost at the cylinder.

I suppose that it all depends on what engine you used and how well the engine runs after the retrofit.

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby sMASH » July 19th, 2018, 10:15 pm

U get a better ROI with the gas kits than the diesel kits because with the gas kits u can run exclusively on the cng. As opposed to diesel which enriches the combustion air with cng so using both fuel types simultaneously.

But, it's definitely better than using diesel exclusively.

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby adnj » July 20th, 2018, 9:03 am

I've heard of only ten fueling stations nationwide. That would keep me from using it for personal use.


There were grants for retiring maxis and zero MVT and VAT for new vehicles. If I were close to a station, I would definitely switch to CNG for commercial use but I would buy a new/used vehicle and not get any kind of conversion.

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby kamakazi » July 20th, 2018, 9:09 am

I don't consider that an engine rebuild. I also think you are confusing some of your information. Now I have not worked on these systems but some basic understanding follows.
Octane is the resistance of a fuel to burn, natural gas is pretty high as fuels go, hence the reduction in power in gasoline engines.
I will edit this later

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby adnj » July 20th, 2018, 9:39 am

I was talking about the NG octane rating allowing the fuel/air to compress without ignition.

I just checked to find that the octane of NG is rated at 130. With diesel compression at about 16:1, NG works well with those engine designs with a spark ignition added.

Internal combustion engines have a compression ratio of about 9:1 and LPG works well with those.

I don't work on these engines so I don't profess to be an expert of any kind. But I have designed the engine control units for some of them so I only know what the engine manufacturer does.

Increased/reduced power is really about available O2 and fuel energy density. Here's a clip if you're interested:

"Why Petroleum, Diesel, and Coal are Here to Stay

Not all fuels are equal. The energy density of alternative fuels is particularly low. The sum of energy in a gallon of diesel, for example, is about 10 percent higher than the energy in a gallon of gasoline.  There is a causal correlation between energy density and fuel efficiency. The greater the fuel density, the more energy produced per unit of measure.

It is because of energy density that diesel engines travel about 30 percent farther per gallon than comparable gasoline engines. Fossil fuels with the highest energy density include No. 6 fuel oil, diesel, anthracite coal, and kerosene. Fossil fuels with mid-level fuel density include gasoline, propane, and sub-bituminous coal.

Fossil fuels with the lowest energy density include natural gas and brown coal."

https://rentar.com/energy-density-alternative-fuels/

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby kamakazi » July 20th, 2018, 1:01 pm

Diesel cng systems normally run the two fuels simultaneously. Injection of diesel is the source of ignition, no rebuild required as far as I am aware.
Diesel engine fuel economy comes more from high compression ratio not as much on energy density.

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby adnj » July 20th, 2018, 1:31 pm

Earlier in the thread there was discussion regarding a NG injection retrofit (dual fuel) versus a CNG diesel engine conversion.

We may need to have a seperate thread discussing fuel economy metric comparisons but the energy density is important when looking at different fuels or even fuel blends for fuel efficiency - not fuel economy.

Cummins, for instance, builds CNG and diesel engines on the same assembly lines and based on the same designs. The CNG has a spark ignition system. I'm sure that I don't know about all the systems; just passing on what I've seen.

Here's a rip from Omnitek:

"Diesel-to-Natural Gas Conversion System and Parts

Omnitek is the only provider of a real-world solution for diesel fleets. The Omnitek Diesel-to-Natural Gas Engine Conversion Technology is matured and used around the world, with over 5,000 engine conversions to date.

Omnitek's proprietary technology overcomes past problems of unreliability and poor performance found in first-generation gas engine technology and outperforms competitors in all relevant areas, including cost, efficiency, performance, emissions and reliability.

Conversion Kits
Diesel engines come in many sizes and can be divided into two groups:
1. Engines without a turbocharger - can use a simple reducer/mixer system (CIMS).
2. Engines with a turbocharger - must use electronic fuel injection (ECM).

Most diesel engines can be converted to natural gas. The power level of the engine after conversion depends on numerous issues, such as natural gas quality, power level of the original diesel engine, emission levels required etc. Diesel engines converted to natural gas generally require added components as well as some mechanical changes to the engine. Basically the diesel engine undergoes a complete overhaul and is in the process transformed from a diesel engine to a natural gas engine (CNG, LNG, or RNG).

Thousands of diesel engines are overhauled every year. Using Omnitek’s conversion technology, these engines can be “overhauled” into natural gas engines -- the difference in cost is minimal. During their long service life of up to 20 years, diesel engines are routinely overhauled – the infrastructure, capacity and knowledge base exists. Diesel-to-natural gas engine conversions make economic sense and is the only viable option to increase the natural gas vehicle population in a reasonable amount of time. 

Conversion Steps
1- Disassemble engine.
2- Checking components and replace as necessary.
3- Modify pistons for gas use (lower compression ratio).
5- Modify cylinder head for spark plugs.
6- Install camshaft sensor and timing wheel.
7- Reassemble engine.
8- Install throttle body, ignition system, gas mixer or fuel injectors.
9- Tuning of the engine (fuel and ignition).


The DNG technology can be used for many applications, including Trucks, Buses, Generators, Industrial, Rail and Marine.

http://www.omnitekcorp.com/altfuel.htm

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby kamakazi » July 20th, 2018, 7:44 pm

That isn't looking like it is worth the price of admission... But I could be wrong

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby Ted_v2 » July 21st, 2018, 7:49 am

Wrong information.

Diesel with cng uses the diesel to ignite and the cng to power the burn.

Can't function on cng alone unless major mods are done ect spark plugs.

Noting less than 25 percent diesel and 75 cng

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Re: CNG kit for the Ranger......UPDATE

Postby sMASH » July 21st, 2018, 9:01 am

Cng needs an ignition source, so either the spark plug or the diesel compression combustion

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