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my Diesel quality study

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Chemical
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Postby Chemical » May 24th, 2007, 10:24 am

Really good thread, however I stronghy suggest the distributor's location should be mentioned (not name) to help others out there from purchasing.

Why not compare the specific gravity of the two samples & water cut levels ESPECIALLY

I always suspected this but never took the time like you did. I really wonder if the same is applicable to gasoline ecpecially the octane levels as some weeks on my way to work the damn car works alot peepier than other weeks :shock:

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Postby Greypatch » May 24th, 2007, 11:20 am

question .

what colour is OUR diesel supposed to look like ?

and when do we know its bad.

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Postby Dragsta » May 24th, 2007, 11:31 am

Good Thread here....But i suggest we get our Own DIESEL FORUM.......wha allyuh think :!:

I sure there are thousands of questions and answers.......i myself have quite alot. :D

Greypatch,what u think as a mod....how can we go abt getting our Own forum :?:









wrt the samples that LOCO has taken, the one from the quick shop is alot Clearer/Cleaner than the one from your supplier....
Do u think its the truck that delivers the diesel is the problem......do they ever clean their truck tanks?

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Postby equipped2ripp » May 24th, 2007, 12:06 pm

Greypatch, light brown/yellowish maybe?

Dragsta, we hadda pay duane $10,000 for de diesel forum... other than that, he say no can do :lol:

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Postby Dragsta » May 24th, 2007, 12:54 pm

^^ :? u serious :| :lol:




i saw a lil "Blueish" colour in the diesel when pouring in to a funnel

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Postby SNIPER 3000 » May 24th, 2007, 1:12 pm

Dragsta wrote:Good Thread here....But i suggest we get our Own DIESEL FORUM.......wha allyuh think :!:

I sure there are thousands of questions and answers.......i myself have quite alot. :D

Greypatch,what u think as a mod....how can we go abt getting our Own forum :?:

I agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :)








wrt the samples that LOCO has taken, the one from the quick shop is alot Clearer/Cleaner than the one from your supplier....
Do u think its the truck that delivers the diesel is the problem......do they ever clean their truck tanks?

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Postby 323_wagon_dude » July 27th, 2007, 7:06 am

Any new info on this??

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Postby web_phantom » July 28th, 2007, 10:39 pm

Team Loco,

Your problem is not exactly with the diesel as it is with the length of time the diesel remains in storage, leading to the development of algae etc . I did some training when i was doing the Donaldson Filter Company's Training a couple years back. The information below will give you some direction. So although using a site based tank may be economical viable, it may not bethe best thing for you vehilce due to the turnover.

Read the article below taken from:

http://www.forconstructionpros.com/onli ... e/2FCP6151

Diesel Fuel Quality is a Question Not a Guarantee

John T. Nightingale
Dieselcraft Fluid Engineering
Diesel engine designs striving to increase engine performance have made great advancements in engine fuel delivery to the combustion chamber. Today's diesel engine is quieter, smoother and more powerful. But today's diesel engine owners are overlooking one important factor. The quality of today's diesel fuel has not advanced at the same rate as the engine improvements.

Diesel fuel begins to deteriorate as soon as it is produced. Within 30 days of refining, all diesel fuel regardless of brand, goes through a natural process called re-polymerization and oxidation. This process forms varnishes and insoluble gums in the fuel by causing the molecules of the fuel to lengthen and bond together. These components now drop to the bottom of the fuel tank and form asphaltene also known as diesel sludge. The fuel begins to turn dark in color, smell bad and in most cases causes engines to smoke. The engines smoke because some of these clusters in the early stages are small enough in size to pass through the engine filtration and into the combustion chamber. As these clusters increase in size, only part of the molecule gets burned. The rest goes out the exhaust as unburned fuel and smoke. With increases in cluster size they begin to reduce the flow of fuel by clogging filters. The filters only address the symptom and not the cause.

It is estimated that eight out of every ten diesel engine failures have been directly related to poor quality and contaminated fuel. The build-up of contaminates in the fuel systems and storage tanks can quickly clog filters, thus resulting in engine shut down, fuel pump wear and diesel engine damage.

Understand that most fuel has some amount of water in it from either condensation or vents. This threat requires that we realize the added burden placed upon diesel fuel as opposed to gasoline. Gasoline acts as a fuel only. Diesel fuel, on the other hand, also must cool and lubricate injection system parts. These parts are engineered to very close tolerances - up to 0.0002 of an inch - and any contamination means rapid part wear. Water displaces the diesel fuel. When the fuel is displaced wear occur because lubrication is now absent.

Water that enters the combustion chamber results in even more serious damage. When it comes in contact with the heat of the combustion chamber (in excess of 2000 degrees F), it immediately turns to steam and often explodes the tip of the injector. Water causes corrosion of tanks, lines, injectors and greatly reduces combustibility.

Other areas of concern include the producing more exhaust emissions and effecting EPA standards.

Bacteria also present a serious problem. Bacteria feed on nitrogen, sulfur and iron that may be present in the fuel or tank.

Then there are algae. There are absolutely no algae in diesel fuel. You may have fungus and microbial contamination but no algae. This is a misnomer for diesel sludge. So if you have a diagnosis of ALGAE and add a biocide, you have done two things, 1) found a mechanic that is wrong and 2) done nothing to fix the problem.

Why is there so much bad fuel?

The number one reason is due to the increased popularity of diesel power and the accompanying increased demand for more diesel fuel. There was a time when diesel fuel remained in the refinery storage tanks long enough to naturally separate and settle, allowing the clean fuel to be drawn off. Now with increased demand, diesel fuel never remains stationary long enough for settling, and the suspended water and solids are passed on to you, the user.

The change in refinery techniques is another problem. In order to get more products per dollar; diesel fuel is now being refined from more marginal portions of the crude oil barrel. This results in a lower-grade product that is inherently thicker and contains more contamination.

Thirdly, current fuel distribution methods also have a negative impact on the condition of the fuel at the time of delivery. In many cases, brokers control fuel sales to major distribution terminals and determine delivery dates. There is no telling how long that fuel has been in the distribution network and how many times it has been transferred. Seldom do these distributors filter the fuel as they transfer it.

The solution: Multifunctional diesel additive packages and hardware.

For your single vehicle or fleet the improvement of fuel quality by the use of additives and current technology is always a good choice.

Many diesel fuel additive packages address the key issues with respect to fuel performance; some improve fuel economy, increase lubricity, improving cold flow, and improve cetane number. And some only address the issue of rust and corrosion, but all should be considered.

Most diesel fuel additives contain combustion improvers that release oxygen during the compression stroke. This allows combustion to start sooner, providing for a more complete fuel burn. A more complete burn provides all the power your fuel and engine is capable of producing. As combustion improves and you get a smoother running engine, an increase in horsepower that improves fuel economy and the reduction in black smoke emissions.

Cetane is a performance rating of a diesel fuel, a higher cetane number or cetane rating indicates greater fuel efficiency. The fuel's cetane influences, duration of white smoking after start-up, drivability before warm-up, and intensity of diesel knock at idle. Increase the cetane number of a fuel and you have improved performance.

In diesel fuel systems, the fuel provides lubrication for the fuel pump and injectors. A fuel with poor lubricity can cause excessive wear and premature failure of these components. Improve lubricity and extend engine life.

Diesel fuels have pour points (the lowest temperature at which an oil or other liquid will pour under given conditions) within the range of normal winter temperatures. As a fuel approaches its pour point, paraffin in the fuel form wax crystals that prevent it from flowing. Flow-improver additives modify the wax crystals, lowering the pour point of the fuel and give better cold weather performance.

For on-sight storage tanks other issues must be looked at. On-sight storage tanks always have a small amount of the first gallon of fuel ever put in them, unless it is drained 100% and cleaned. So adding new, fresh fuel always has a bit of the bad added to it every time fuel is purchased. Diluting the bad with good over time is a loosing battle. The fuel will always be bad fuel until the core problem is addressed

The order of treatment for fuel related problems should always begin with a determination of whether there is water in the fuel and if the fuel has microbes (fuel bugs) in it. Water Paste and Fuel Test Kits can be used for this stage of maintenance. If microbes are detected, then the use of biocides is needed. Biocides have no effect on and will not eliminate the sludge problem. Biocides kill bacteria, that's all!

The water issue should always be remedied first by the use of fuel water separators on the tank or on the equipment. Next a multifunctional chemical additive should be added to improve fuel performance and then if needed a problem specific additive to dissolve diesel sludge and or a rust inhibitor to protect steel tanks. For long-term prevention, the use of magnet fuel conditioners is recommended. These devices continually reverse the re-polymerization of the fuel during circulation and reduce the need for ongoing additive use.

Conclusion
There is no good time to find out that your engine won't operate or that half its life span is gone prematurely because of contaminated or poor quality diesel fuel. Since no one can predict a breakdown, the only safe method is prevention.

Realize now that you do have a problem, and manage it now, or deal with the unexpected catastrophe and reduced equipment life that comes at the absolutely wrong time and is not in the budget!

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Postby Team Loco » July 30th, 2007, 9:51 am

^^^correct. i've learnt alot on this since i first posted this topic

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Postby Greypatch » July 30th, 2007, 11:18 am

well fellas sorry i did not respond now came back and looked at this thread...

sine then we have gotten a truck and 4x4 forum so that eh to bad.

wrt he colour of the fuel i will have to agree with dragster and teh tinge of blue in the fuel.

since I have benn filling up at onlt ONE station no problems with fuel none what so ever.

even ran the tank down to below 1/4 ..

will take a read at webs article

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Postby DrunkenMaster16 » July 30th, 2007, 11:27 am

I fill up everywhere, some places I get 430 or so k's before fuel light some places id get 500+

I get alil morning smoke and mild smoke every time I mash out for a brief moment. Mazda BT-50 113XX k's, 2nd service done so far.

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Postby Greypatch » July 30th, 2007, 11:30 am

excellent read...

now to complete this thread we need to list the products that can be used to effectively combat the ills of poor fuel

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Postby Team Loco » July 30th, 2007, 11:30 am

I got 600kms outta the new hilux already, when it was brand new. But that was continuous highway run

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Postby Team Loco » July 30th, 2007, 11:33 am

Patch, I had good experiences with cv100 combustion catalyst

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Postby Greypatch » July 30th, 2007, 2:48 pm

i get really good mileage

will monitor and post next week..ah off tomorrow and well wednesday is ah off day for everybody

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Postby aviboy » July 30th, 2007, 2:51 pm

get 550 city and abt 625-675 highway with we hilux loco.

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Postby nigel1977 » July 30th, 2007, 9:16 pm

between 535 and 547 with my vigo. point - sando traffic etc.
takes bout 97-100 to full up.

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Postby web_phantom » August 4th, 2007, 7:30 am

Define: How do you check the quality of the diesel? because I am sure that at the source they refine using some sort of specification....(anybody who knows can elaborate on the process), or is it at the pump, due to the age of some of the tanks at these stations and the lack of additives to control any growths etc

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Postby Team Loco » August 9th, 2007, 9:32 pm

anybody can make biodoesel??

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Postby sweeks » August 12th, 2007, 6:06 am

Good job on the research guys. Thanks.

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Postby Greypatch » August 13th, 2007, 9:06 am

comments and recommendations on treatments

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Postby nigel1977 » September 7th, 2007, 2:10 pm

Some potential good news for the oil burning brotherhood.

The following is taken from issue no.6, august, of the Petrotrin R&M newsletter...



...The board has approved the construction of a new USLD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) Unit as part of the general upgrade program. Much focus has not been paid tho this project as it does not form part of the GOP initiative.... The board has approved the recommended licensor for Basic Engineering Design and a concurrent Front End Engineering Design (FEED). Contract negotiations are currently underway....

Kick off meeting .. Aug 21st 07
Finished Product: Cetane >51, Sulphur <10ppm
ECD... first half 2010.

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Postby bushwakka » September 29th, 2007, 3:22 pm

Just some general info about diesel here

Diesel consists mostly of alkanes in the range of C13 -C20. That said....there is nothing such as pure diesel seeing as it is a mixture of compounds.
However 'pure' diesel from a good refinery is colourless with a hint of a paraffin odour.
Also....no-one uses pure diesel...do not be fooled...we do not even use pure gasoline!

The problem is that pure diesel is simply too expensive to make and it is therefore blended in (or diluted if u like) with other components (lubricants etc) to make your diesel fuel. If you were to use pure diesel in one of your hilux, frontier etc down here....ur engine will not like it to say the least. So we are thankful for not using pure diesel.

The darkness and increase in viscosity of the diesel fuel in trinidad is due to the presence of a lot of sulphur containing compounds (which also make diesel fumes toxic) and other contaminants which Petrotrin see fit to not remove.

Petrotrin is currently in the midst of a feasibility study for a GTL (Gas-to-Liquids) plant for the production of high grade diesel. Currently, we get our diesel from the distillation of crude oil. The GTL process is one in which Natural Gas (methane/CH4) is converted to longer chain alkane compounds by reaction of natural gass with Carbon Monoxide and Hydrogen. Since the process uses methane as the raw material...consequently, the High Grade Diesel product from this process contains no sulphur in it and is thus colourless.

Subsequently, this high grade diesel will be blended with other lower grade diesel (such as the crude oil diesel) in order to produce a marketable product. The result is that if the GTL plant is built (which looks likely at this time), we will have a marked improvement in the quality of our diesel here. So just something for you guys to look out for...although this probably won't happen for the next 7-8 yrs or so.

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Postby gencon » October 9th, 2007, 5:30 pm

BUSHWAKKA
BUT WOULD THIS MEAN ALSO AN INCREASE IN THE PRICE OF DIESEL?

ALSO WHAT ABOUT BIO-DIESEL WHICH IS A "GREEN" FUEL, I BELIEVE IT INVOLVES THE SIMPLE FILTERING AND SEPERATION OF COOKING OIL FROM ITS
IMPURITIES, THERE ARE BIO-DIESEL KITS THAT ONE CAN BUY IN ORDER TO PROCESS THIS OIL, THEY SAY IT IS CHEMICALLY SIMILAR ENOUGH TO DIESEL TO BE RELIABLY IN DIESEL ENGINES.

HONESTLY I DON'T THINK THAT ANYONE WOULD WANT TO GO THROUGH THAT MUCH TROUBLE TO GET THERE HERE IN TRINIDAD, BUT IN OTHER COUNTRIES PEOPLE DO IT , IN THE US FOR EXAMPLE WHERE FUEL COSTS ARE SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER AND THEY CAN GET THE BEST BANG FOR THERE BUCK.

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Postby bushwakka » October 11th, 2007, 8:15 am

no...not really...it doesn't have to translate into a higher price....but since they will be producing a better product...they will most likely increase price yes...but that's not because of the operation costs of the GTL plant....that's cuz we like to get ripped off in trinidad

also...there are only about 4 or 5 GTL plants like this in the world so far...so we will be gaining a good market share of the clean diesel...

with respects to the bio fuel....unless u make the bio fuel urself.....then any 'clean' fuels made...be it by GTL or bio process will be blended with 'dirtier' ones from crude oil distil. to produce a marketable product. But the quality increase will still be significant

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Postby Puff » November 4th, 2007, 3:08 pm

Hey, I'm driving a 2007 Kia Sportage Diesel.. my first diesel vehicle
My first tank of fuel i got over 700km..
since then i've been getting 400 - 500km per tank.. but i've noticed that when i purchase fuel from the newer gas stations (built in the last year or 2, with the digital pumps etc) i usually get closer to 500..

that's my contribution :)

lol just realised it's been almost a month since someone last posted anything in here :)

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Postby Big Z » April 25th, 2008, 11:08 am

The GTL plant is in construction in Petrotrin.. expect it to be operational mid 2009

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Postby Greypatch » December 9th, 2008, 12:50 pm

mid 2009 that's 6 months away

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Postby biggy82 » December 9th, 2008, 3:32 pm

yea Patchie...i have a padna wukkin there....they really looking at 1st to 2nd quarter 2009

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Postby sweeks » December 9th, 2008, 4:03 pm

I heard the same about the GTL plant coming on stream....so let's keep our fingers crossed

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