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AdamB wrote:Red Fraction wrote:The intention of GOD was to make man a people who would commit sins, so that by seeking GOD's forgiveness and asking for HIM to accept our repentance
Adamb......... That extract above from your post is most misleading and is an attack on Gods character. How can you say God intent was to make man who would commit sin??
That's like saying God destroys and kills smh.
I really wish you would desist from making God out to be a selfish tyrant who revels in seeing humans suffer.
Red Fraction,
I went through this discussion before. You are the one attacking GOD's character by claiming that HE created us to NOT SIN but we humans somehow have broken away from the nature in which GOD has created us, so that we can commit sin.
Look you have your theology, and if you don't apply logic to it or accept it even though it makes no sense, then that's your choice. GOD created us with an intellect and the ability to choose the path to our destiny.
ABA Trading LTD wrote:lol @ muslims fighting muslims , men saying they know for SURE what God intention was then another saying the other being offensive.
Even muslims have gone astray. GOD does not say in the Quran that muslims go to Paradise but rather "believers", there is a big difference.
At the end of the day, how do ANY of you know ANYTHING for sure about a event/person/God/alien that happened thousands of years ago?
How do you know that it didn't?
Think of it this way, in a group of 20 people today, If i tell a story to the first one and its passed on and on and on, by the time it reach the 20th person, that story has stuff taken out and added in. It isn't the original story.
Please research the preservation of the Quran in Arabic, any two on the face of the Earth are identical. The entire Quran is memorized word for word, letter for letter by millions of muslims. There are scholars whose works of explaining the Quran are also documented.
Also, the actions, approvals, disapprovals, commands/instructions and prohibitions FROM THE MOUTH OF OUR PROPHET AND witnessed by his Companions are recorded and memorized also by scholars of hadith. Each hadith has a text and full chain of narrators until it was recorded / memorized by Imams who collected them. The men who passed on the hadith one to another had to have trustworthy character, with good history of memory, precision, practising the religion and known for not telling lies or other immoral practises. There are books written on the biographical evaluation of these men call Ilm-ul-Rijaal (Knowledge of the men of hadith). There are categories of hadith and nomenclature. http://abdurrahman.org/sunnah/thescienc ... thmsa.html
The Science of Hadith
In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate the Most Merciful
We have, Without doubt, sent down the message: and we will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (Qur'an 15:9)
The promise made by Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other.
Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) preserved the Sunnah by enabling the companions and those after them to memorize, write down and pass on the statements of the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam), and the descriptions of his way, as well as to continue the blessings of practicing the Sunnah.
Later, as the purity of the knowledge of the Sunnah became threatened, Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) caused the Muslim Ummah to produce individuals with exceptional memory skills and analytical expertise, who travelled tirelessly to collect thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of prophetic wisdom from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the large number of Ulama (scholars), the companions and those who followed their way. All of this was achieved through precise attention to the words narrated, and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of hadith.
The methodology of the expert scholars of hadith in assessing the narrations and sorting out the genuine from the mistaken and fabricated, for ms the subject matter of the science of hadith. In this article a brief discussion is given of the terminology and classifications of hadith.
Components of Hadith
A hadith is composed of three parts (see the figure [below]):
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Matn (text), isnad (chain of reporters), and taraf (the part, or the beginning sentence, of the text which refers to the sayings, actions or characteristics of the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam), or his concurrence with others action). The authenticity of the hadith depends on the reliability of its reporters, and the linkage among them.
Classifications of Hadith
A number of classifications of hadith have been made. Five of these classifications are shown in the figure [below], and are briefly described subsequently.
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According to the reference to a particular authority
Four types of hadith can be identified.
Qudsi - Divine; a revelation from Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala); relayed with the words of the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam).
Marfu - elevated; a narration from the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam), e.g. I heard the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam) saying ...
Mauquf- stopped: a narration from a companion only, e.g., we were commanded to ...
Maqtu' - severed: a narration from a successor.
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According to the links of Isnad - interrupted or uninterrupted
Six categories can be identified.
Musnad - supported: a hadith which is reported by a traditionalist, based on what he learned from his teacher at a time of life suitable for learning; similarly - in turn - for each teacher until the isnad reaches a well known companion, who in turn, reports from the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam).
Mutassil - continuous: a hadith with an uninterrupted isnad which goes back only to a companion or successor.
Mursal - hurried: if the link between the successor and the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam) is missing, e.g. when a successor says "The Prophet said...".
Munqati - broken: is a hadith whose link anywhere before the successor (i.e., closer to the traditionalist recording the hadith) is missing.
Mu'adal - perplexing: is a hadith whose reporter omits two or more consecutive reporters in the isnad.
Mu'allaq - hanging: is a hadith whose reporter omits the whole isnad and quotes the Prophet (Sallalaahu Ala'hi wa Sallam) directly (i.e., the link is missing at the beginning).
According to the number of reporters involved in each stage of Isnad
Five categories of hadith can be identified:
Mutawatir - Consecutive: is a hadith which is reported by such a large number of people that they cannot be expected to agree upon a lie, all of them together.
Ahad - isolated: is a hadith which is narrated by people whose number does not reach that of the mutawatir.
It is further classified into:
Mash'hur - famous: hadith reported by more than two reporters.
Aziz - rare, strong: at any stage in the isnad, only two reporters are found to narrate the hadith.
Gharib - strange: At some stage of the Isnad, only one reporter is found relating it.
According to the nature of the text and isnad
Munkar - denounced: is a hadith which is reported by a weak narrator, and whose narration goes against another authentic hadith.
Mudraj - interpolated: an addition by a reporter to the text of the hadith being narrated.
According to the reliability and memory of the reporters
This provides the final verdict on a hadith - four categories can be identified:
Sahih - sound. Imam Al-shafi'i states the following requiremetts for a hadith, which is not mutawatir, to be acceptable "each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion; he should be known to be truthtul in his narrating, to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and to report the wording of the hadith verbatim, not only its meaning".
Hasan - good: is the one where its source is known and its reporters are unambiguous.
Da'if - weak: a hadith which fails to reach the status of hasan. Usually, the weakness is: a) one of discontinuity in the isnad, in which case the hadith could be - according to the nature of the discontinuity - munqati (broken), mu'allaq (hanging), mu'dal (perplexing), or mursal (hurried), or b) one of the reporters having a disparaged character, such as due to his telling lies, excessive mistakes, opposition to the narration of more reliable sources, involvement in innovation, or ambiguity surrounding his person.
Maudu' - fabricated or forged: is a hadith whose text goes against the established norms of the Prophet's sayings, or its reporters include a liar. Fabricated hadith are also recognized by external evidence related to a discrepancy found in the dates or times of a particular incident.
Check out a brief history of the SCIENCE OF HADITH : http://abdurrahman.org/sunnah/briefhist ... adith.html
I don't blame you for thinking this way because you have not seen this type of preservation and accuracy in any other religion, so you assume that all religions are the same. SO NOT TRUE!! GOD knows that there are people like you and Duane (OK and MG, Crossdrilled, Humes, dspike, dnoah, bluefete, Megadoc1, Red Fraction, brams112, and others) who would question every single thing before acceptance, that is why HE has set out this system to preserve HIS RELIGION FOR OUR TIME.
You really think that stuff that supposedly happened thousands of years ago and has been written down,translated,modified to suit certain situations, translated again, carried across continents can be relied upon to say you know anything FOR SURE? or it's a FACT?
This hasn't happened to the Quran and Hadith.
Unless there's a glowing gold book in the sky that speaks the word of God loud enough everyday and performs miracles for all those who go near it then even the first Koran or Bible or Bhagavad Gita's can't be trusted.
I refer to what I have posted above on Quran and hadith.
All the original texts have what the original author decide to put,with his opinion and twists on things.
The Quran is unaltered. The hadith have been classified as sound, good, weak and fabricated. The weak and fabricated are rejected if it (the weak) opposes other established sound and good hadith. Only the sound hadith are used in matters of creed.
turbohead wrote:wrt sufism it is the spiritual aspect of islam and whereby one cannot be a sufi and not be a sunni... it is a higher attained spiritual essence in islam through the controlled chain of order and permissions in spiritual aspects...
no, God created us with free will to love. the "strict" guidelines on how to live, were given to a people who's hearts were hardened,it was also a way God chose to show them how much they fall short of holiness... now all of that has been taking care of at the cross, where one receives a new heart and walks in righteousness as he believesDuane 3NE 2NR wrote:I'm trying to understand all sides here
God created man with free will, but then gave strict guidelines on how to live and if you don't follow it, you go to hell for eternal damnation.
correct?
The Existence of Evil
evil is a result of God’s love. There are different beings, creatures and species on the earth: worms, bacteria, dogs and humans etc. The privilege of being a human is having the capacity to exhibit true love which must be a free choice to be truly called love. So God created us like him – it is the only way love can be exhibited - for God is love. Being like God means we have freewill and we can choose God or No God. This choice allows for the existence of evil. Could not the Almighty God find another way to do this? The answer is yes but then we will all be robots. God made us like Him because that is the only way love can be shown. There is only one way to be like God.
What about suffering in the world?
God could instantly stop suffering on the earth. However it will mean forcing His will on humanity. God could rule the earth like Superman. He can use His omniscience and His omnipresence and instantly stop evil wherever it happens on the earth. Humanity would be subject to Him in every way and the earth would be a beautiful place. However, we will then stop being human. So God in His eternal wisdom has chosen to rule the earth through His love – it is only then that His nature would be manifest in us.
What does Jesus teach?
Jesus is a real historical figure whose impact on the world was significant ...
How do his teachings play out as we look for meaning in life? Jesus message is simple – Love God and love one another as He loves us.
Jesus teaches that no one is good, no not one. He says we have all sinned and fallen short of God’s standard for perfection. He says we are all lost, hence the name Jesus means “Saviour”. Jesus came for a people who could not save themselves.
What are the claims of Jesus?
1. We have all sinned
We were born with a sin nature which makes sinning natural to us. As a result, teachings etc. can do little to help us. It is like a dog – it is his nature to bark and chase cars. If we are trying to get a dog to stop doing that – we will need to bring out the old chain and tie the dog up or lock it in a kennel. I guess it will bark even more. Religion is generally an attempt to tie up a dog. “Thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not steal” are essentially chains to keep us from sinning. Religion tends to fail because humanity’s problem is in our nature and sinful heart. All “thou shall not’s” do is prove that we are sinners.
2. Jesus answer – A New Nature
Jesus’ answer is a new nature – being born again in the spirit. Jesus was not born of the seed of a man therefore He didn’t carry the sin nature but He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. His promise is if someone receives Him He will give them a New Nature. Just like how we sin naturally with the “old nature”; with the “new nature” we naturally do good. So Jesus calls us righteous, holy and perfected forever – it is His gift to us. We do not lose it by sinning and because we have this new nature we don’t want to sin. It is an incorruptible nature.
This is why a Christian believes he is already made perfect by Jesus Christ. We are tri-une beings like God – we are spirits that possess a soul and live in a body. When someone receives Jesus, they receive a new spiritual nature that is perfect, holy and righteous forever.
It is the reason that when Jesus was on the earth, He said a new commandment I give you but it is really the same commandments before addressed to a new nature. His commandment is “thou shall love”. Jesus has untied all the “nots” in “thou shall not.”
ABA Trading LTD wrote:All the original texts have what the original author decide to put,with his opinion and twists on things.
[/quote]AdamB wrote:[quote="turbohead
bro no offense but i think you should really expand and get proofs from credible ulema with permission in their education from the teachers that lead straight back to the pinnacle foundation of islam... these youtube sheiks you dealing wit that read a book and deducing from there own capacity is not in rank with the likes of Shayk abdul qadir jalani, Imam ahmad raza khan, Imam ghazali, may Allah bless their souls... for they were jus a few of the leading ulema that set the pace for us in islam, if you could find any "maulana" that could refute our ulema of the present times like Shayk habib ali jifri, Imam khalid hussain, Shayk ninowi, Shayk yacoubi and countless others i would consider taking your ruthless claims on, you fellas should stick to wat yuh good at and leave which doesnt concern you when you go with half truths and inuendos.... i pm'ed you so that i wouldnt have to deal wit you on the forum but yuh pushing yuh luck and making an ass out of yourself.. if you choose to follow the likes of abdul wahab of najd then i suggest you dont dive into topics that you dont know about.
My dear brother in Islam,
I will repeat this from the above post on Allah having a form/not being imageless:
In fact, it is virtuous to admit the truth, which is the goal of the believers. Admitting the truth guides the people to the truth and distracts them from falsehood. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If anyone calls others to follow right guidance, his reward will be equivalent to those who follow him (in righteousness) until the Day of Resurrection without their reward being diminished in any respect, and if anyone invites others to follow error, the sin will be equivalent to that of the people who follow him (in sinfulness) until the Day of Resurrection without their sins being diminished in any respect.”
May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!
If you were living isolated with only the Quran and the books of Hadith, please tell me how the path you would take to worship your LORD would lead to Sufism / Mysticism?
Ask yourself this question: Did our prophet Muhammad, Abu bakr as-siddique, Umar, Uthman and 'Ali follow the path of Sufism?
turbohead wrote:AdamB wrote:[quote="turbohead
bro no offense but i think you should really expand and get proofs from credible ulema with permission in their education from the teachers that lead straight back to the pinnacle foundation of islam... these youtube sheiks you dealing wit that read a book and deducing from there own capacity is not in rank with the likes of Shayk abdul qadir jalani, Imam ahmad raza khan, Imam ghazali, may Allah bless their souls... for they were jus a few of the leading ulema that set the pace for us in islam, if you could find any "maulana" that could refute our ulema of the present times like Shayk habib ali jifri Refutation of Habib Ali al Jifiri – Sheikh Fawzaan
Question :
What is your opinion on Habib Ali ul Jifiri ? Is he from Ahl Al Sunnah Wa Al Jaamah ? We have heard many people state that listening to him is fine. So please clarify for us his creed because their has been a great affliction caused by this man.
Sheikh Fawzaan :
The mans audio recordings and books will judge for itself. The man is an innovator. A babbler. He calls to worship the graves and souls. He is a babbler. His audio recordings are available. In his own words, he mocks Ahl AlSunnah and Ahl Al-Tawheed (Family Of Monotheism). He mocks them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1OfxstgZx4
Refutation of Habib Ali al Jifiri – Sheikh al Raajahee
Question:
A questioner from the UAE asks, many people have taken up the issue of warning against him or defending him in regards to Habib Ali al Jifri. So what is your advice ? And if he is to be warned against – than is this considered from the forbidden type of backbiting ?
Sheikh AbdelAziz al Raajhee :
What we see is that Habib Ali Al Jifri is a sufi (soofee) and the sufis are ash’aris. He praises them – promotes pantheism “wihdet al wujuud” and the likes of it (them). Likewise he endorses shirk (polytheism), and the seeking intercession (supplication) from / on the dead. He is a babbler, qaaburee (grave worshiper), sufi, ash’ari. This isn’t considered backbiting, rather it is mere advice. Warning against the evil doers, innovators, and the ones that mislead. This isn’t backbiting, rather this is advice. He is a babbler. There is no doubt that he is a babbler. We have heard his words on an audio recording of him, we have found that he endorses the call of the qaaburiyyah (grave worshipers) and seeking intercession from the Prophet. He attributes baseless matters to the Companions – he negates the hadiths. He is a babbler, sufi, qaaburee, ash’ari.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5TJjsSAzk
, Imam khalid hussain, Shayk ninowi, Shayk yacoubi and countless others i would consider taking your ruthless claims on, you fellas should stick to wat yuh good at and leave which doesnt concern you when you go with half truths and inuendos.... i pm'ed you so that i wouldnt have to deal wit you on the forum but yuh pushing yuh luck and making an ass out of yourself.. if you choose to follow the likes of abdul wahab of najd then i suggest you dont dive into topics that you dont know about.
My dear brother in Islam,
I will repeat this from the above post on Allah having a form/not being imageless:
In fact, it is virtuous to admit the truth, which is the goal of the believers. Admitting the truth guides the people to the truth and distracts them from falsehood. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If anyone calls others to follow right guidance, his reward will be equivalent to those who follow him (in righteousness) until the Day of Resurrection without their reward being diminished in any respect, and if anyone invites others to follow error, the sin will be equivalent to that of the people who follow him (in sinfulness) until the Day of Resurrection without their sins being diminished in any respect.”
May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!
If you were living isolated with only the Quran and the books of Hadith, please tell me how the path you would take to worship your LORD would lead to Sufism / Mysticism?
Ask yourself this question: Did our prophet Muhammad, Abu bakr as-siddique, Umar, Uthman and 'Ali follow the path of Sufism?
d spike wrote:ABA Trading LTD wrote:All the original texts have what the original author decide to put,with his opinion and twists on things.
Well put. Unfortunately, any fundamentalist (someone who takes his scripture literally, believes Adam really existed, Noah really floated his boat, etc.) HAS to believe that the scribbles he snarls over are EXACTLY the same as they were when Moses/Jesus/Prophet/hairy-looking-guy-on-street-corner wrote/uttered them... and will not even consider the human aspect of the humans who, in putting pen to paper (stylus to tablet?), would have had an opinion, or lacked knowledge of all the facts involved in the topic they choose to write about. One must always consider the culture and the era out of which the specific scripture arose.
megadoc1 wrote:no, God created us with free will to love. the "strict" guidelines on how to live, were given to a people who's hearts were hardened,it was also a way God chose to show them how much they fall short of holiness... now all of that has been taking care of at the cross, where one receives a new heart and walks in righteousness as he believesDuane 3NE 2NR wrote:I'm trying to understand all sides here
God created man with free will, but then gave strict guidelines on how to live and if you don't follow it, you go to hell for eternal damnation.
correct?
brams112 wrote:how this gone from religion enlightment to bashing others?
AdamB wrote:Other scriptures have been changed / "corrected" by man.
AdamB wrote:ABA, what's your point?
AdamB wrote:Looks like a muslim beard to me!!
d spike wrote:
I might point out to you that scripture, ALL scripture, was written by men. Being inspired by God to write passages was never a case of God snatching away someone's pencil saying, "Hold on, lemme write dis t'ing."
turbohead wrote:adam you clearly are a hardcore and i would choose not to debate on those issues wit you. you clearly dont hav the concept of taqleed and being mujtahid, you seem to know alot and bro i am but a humble man seeking knowledge and i choose the way of ahlul sunnah wa jammah... the shaykhs of ahlul sunnah wa jammah have clear ijazah on their knowledge wit clear chain of proof...
d spike wrote:300 pages long... and the truest thing ever said within these pages is:
Hear O Israel...
Jesus saves...
Mohammed is THE prophet...
R'amen...
WHO CARES?????
We do, individually. Yet we live as part of a collective society, interacting with each other.
We have to learn to live WITH each other, not just next to each other.
Learning how we each interact with our concept of the divine, and more importantly, identifying similarities in how we each approach that concept, can only help us appreciate other religions, appreciate a different approach to a previously accepted concept, appreciate the differences, and thus accept each other WITH our differences - rather than DESPITE our differences.
We each are charged with finding our way in the best way we know.
How a boat sails depends heavily on how it is built.
How much beam it has, where the mast is stepped, the rake of the mast, the type of sail... all these (and more) will affect how close to the wind it will sail, how well it will tack, how it will run...
To expect, or demand, that other people sail their craft the way you do yours can lead to catastrophe. You sail yours the way it sails best due to its build. Each other craft will do the same.
(I might point out that blowing another craft out of the water because it does not handle or sail the way yours does, doesn't help either!)
ABA Trading LTD wrote:
nope, you'd be a poor salesman if you explain all the benefits of what you are selling and your customer doesn't ask for a purchase order.AdamB wrote:Wouldn't I be a poor salesman if I explain all the benefits of what I am selling and don't ask for a purchase order?
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