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Proposed 2014 rule changes

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Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby JDM_GUY » September 19th, 2013, 2:21 pm

Good day all,
I would like to get some suggestions on what rules need to be address for the 2014 Autocross. I myself have some insights to try and make the sport more fair to its competitors and new comers. Any suggestions should be posted here where the mods can see.

Please no old talk.
Last edited by JDM_GUY on September 20th, 2013, 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » September 19th, 2013, 3:12 pm

Thread title should read "Proposed 2014 rule changes"

Apart from that the classification system should be improved, for the sake of attracting more people to it, and hence growing.
Since the classification was "reworked", what has happened in terms of # of competitors?

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Re: 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » September 19th, 2013, 4:40 pm

good luck, OP
here's a bit of a history lesson
whatever you do, DO NOT ask for a copy of the constitution so you can see how the club was designed to function
:-/
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Re: 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » September 19th, 2013, 4:45 pm

hmmm. I wonder under what conditions future rule changes will be made, and which current ones will be considered valid.

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Re: 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » September 19th, 2013, 8:48 pm

Btw OP,
Do not be fooled by the title of this forum. Club committee members are in no way obligated to visit this forum, or join tuner etc. It doesn't even matter that carstt.com redirects you here. This is not considered an effective or proper way to express ideas or ask questions of the powers that be. You need to either make a phone call, or send an email

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby JDM_GUY » September 20th, 2013, 7:37 pm

MG Man.. WDF dude... You just sent up my blood pressure.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby whizpig » September 23rd, 2013, 8:00 am

Thanks for the history lesson, the reminder that the carstt.com is in shambles, and that the executive has no obligation to the trinituner forum, i.e. reading it or responding to posts.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » September 23rd, 2013, 9:09 am

but isn't that what was said on numerous occasions?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby DEVI » September 25th, 2013, 8:49 am

we welcome any new suggestions to rule changes ..and of course they will looked at and voted on for the new year....what do you have in mind JDM GUY??

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby Razkal » September 25th, 2013, 10:52 am

i propose to revise the penalty point system. i seriously don't think factory turbocharged cars should suffer a penalty for an OEM intercooler.

the website: i've no apologies saying that if we, as a club and organisation want to be taken seriously. our site needs to be updated before and after each event. we have a website, so update it or take it down and make use of this forum. i've paid membership dues and would like to atleast see how the season progresses as i compete.

prizes: I've also previously asked, why can't we have full podium finishes...as in 1st, 2nd and 3rd place for each class and two prizes per class for rookies? the problem was sponsorship. to which i requested the necessary information to realise such an arrangement. i can help find sponsors for atleast 3rd place prizes...its just daft not to have full podium finishes in this type of motorsport event imo.

registration: we should also push for having competitors print the form before hand, have it completed and show up on race day just to pay registration and scrutineer. i believe the form is online. where? i don't know.

i know this one is a bit far-fetched, but if there's anyway we can arrange for equipment (be it rental, donation of services or just a borrows) to clean the car park, (blowers, pressure washers or just massive brooms) you guys have my time, effort and energy. all the glass, nails and random debris we could do with less of.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby Razkal » September 25th, 2013, 11:30 am

btw, when and where is the General Meeting being held so we can propose and vote on rule changes? haven't heard anything for the year so just asking seeing as this is where the topic of the thread should really be discussed. it is, however, nice to see what ideas and changes members have to suggest.

doh lemme be the only one opening my mouth eh.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby Razkal » September 25th, 2013, 11:31 am

if venue is an issue for the meeting just say, i can help work around that.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » September 25th, 2013, 1:03 pm

CLASS
W/P Ratio Range
GS 30+
HS 26 - 29.9
ES 20 - 25.9
ESP 14 - 19.9
SS 11.5 - 13.9
EP 10.1 - 11.4
EPR 8.6 - 10.0

Are those wide wide ranges from ES and ESP really necessary?

How bout
GS 27+
HS 23 - 26.9
ES 19 - 22.9
ESP 15 - 18.9
SS 12 - 14.9
EP 10 - 11.9
EPR <10
Open <10 on race tyres

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby Razkal » September 25th, 2013, 2:11 pm

i agree pete, i forgot about that actually..but your suggested ranges makes alot more sense.

btw, seeing as members are mostly talking to themselves in here..

DEVI wrote:we welcome any new suggestions to rule changes ..and of course they will looked at and voted on for the new year


so far no one else from the executive has 'welcomed' anything said here...how do we go about rectifying this? it seems we're just 'making ole noise' with no guarantee that anything will be addressed. where do we officially put across our suggestions?
this is why i'm insisting we have a general meeting, pass out some existing club constitution documents and have a discussion and membership vote on the changes/amendments discussed.

i feel like i'm just wasting time here, members barely check, far less for post in here. do the meeting. DO IT!

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby DEVI » September 25th, 2013, 8:24 pm

The Annual meeting where we elect the new commitee will be held late October, normal venue Valpark food court...This would be a great opportunity to bring up suggested rule changes and all the other points raised Razkal... normally the head of dex would open a forum for discussing the suggested changes...then by Jan next year the new rules would be added to the rule book. Give us a couple days and we will announce the exact date and venue for this meeting.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby whizpig » September 25th, 2013, 9:01 pm

i second or third or whatever (cause this is not the first time it has come up) the updating of the website. and with the updating can come Razkal's suggestion about registration and the constitution (that shouldn't be too hard on an updated website)

anybody know how to ? or knows someone that does and is willing to work for cheap to free, i doh think we need anything fancy, functional and up-to-date is all i asking for.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » September 25th, 2013, 9:24 pm

I have updated the site in the past. and am willing to update in future.

I had offered to do it this year, but didn't because I was told it would be redone by someone else.

It may not be the prettiest, but the info would be there.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby Razkal » September 26th, 2013, 12:34 am

thanks devi, i'll make sure i have some thought out suggestions and come prepared. any chance you can link a copy of the existing constitution here so myself and others can see the specifics before the AGM? this can also help existing members to be prepared with useful and informed suggestions.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby Razkal » September 26th, 2013, 12:37 am

1vote for wagonrunner's updating/maintenance service.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby JDM_GUY » September 26th, 2013, 9:47 am

2 votes for wagonrunner's updating/maintenance service.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » September 26th, 2013, 10:05 am

2 votes and a few beers
man gets thirsty

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby ng357 » September 26th, 2013, 6:05 pm

Some updating is better than none, so since nothing has been done before... Im in favour of wagonrunner. Also wat about an online registration.. is that possible?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » September 26th, 2013, 7:39 pm

online registration was also available back then around 2008.

the persons who monitor the email address, and the treasurer would need to tally that, and lock it off by i'd say the wednesday before the sunday. (they would have things they'd need to do).

It would be be excellent if what's in this link was followed and built upon.
http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=276986
To ensure stuff gets done, as well not have the few doing the work of many.
Strangely enough I missed where it was written they could amend rules without it being put to a vote by membership though. but hey aint a problem a mod can't fix. ;)

PS. I pulled a quick ratch only on the home page of http://www.carstt.com. Hit it an F5 if you don't see the changes
To keep the info on top and to the right always visible, while just editing the main body with the events, and relinking is gonna take a lot of time.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby Razkal » October 1st, 2013, 9:26 am

good work wagon, i like how you linked the rule change discussion.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 1st, 2013, 12:57 pm

Razkal wrote:i like how you linked the rule change discussion.
thanks.
did that for the 2013 thread as well, just edit one number and the hyperlink. :oops: :lol: :lol:
F5 again :oops:

I'm waiting on the results and points standings, so i can update those.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 3rd, 2013, 1:24 am

pete wrote:Are those wide wide ranges from ES and ESP really necessary?

How bout
GS 27+
HS 23 - 26.9
ES 19 - 22.9
ESP 15 - 18.9
SS 12 - 14.9
EP 10 - 11.9
EPR <10
Open <10 on race tyres
Added to that, why do we believe every single car loses 15% for 2WD, and 20% for 4WD? (Never understood why test, then calculate a non-uniform factor)

Since we use the same dyno, the average of those two are 18.5%.
If we shift the ranges by that, and use the dyno'd power of the car (did just using GS-27, and EP-12 to get min / max) and make it even below.

GS 32+
HS 28.0 - 31.9
ES 24.0 - 27.9
ESP 20.0 - 23.9
SS 16.0 - 19.9
EP 12.0 - 15.9
EPR <12
Open <12 on race tyres

NB:
The above is suggested only because the majority agree that vehicles of same P/W ratios yet with different wheelbase handle the same.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 3rd, 2013, 2:55 pm

^^^
they don't handle the same, but who gonna let a 'stig' benchmark their car?
No matter the system, there will be flaws
wheelbase, auto vs manual vs cvt vs flapy paddle gearbox, heck I even heard ppl complaining that Kirk's car having a turbo and a supercharger is an unfair advantage :-/
Even on a dyno, you can change your tyre pressures and manipulate your whp
I think PWR is seen as the best compromise among most ppl

Building on youe stiggify concept, maybe we could run a basic figure 8 and have cars based on that....but then you got sandbaggers to deal with.....back to 'nobody drivin my car'.....grr

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby wagonrunner » October 3rd, 2013, 5:48 pm

In competition. especially tracks longer than 60 seconds.
Do similarly performing cars achieve similar times and could possible be grouped together, or can driving skill cause a car to be driven better than mechanically possible?

similarly classed cars should at least be able to perform similarly.
but if it's more comforting to beat a class with not even a close contender, so be it.

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby MG Man » October 4th, 2013, 8:01 am

wagonrunner wrote:In competition. especially tracks longer than 60 seconds.
Do similarly performing cars achieve similar times and could possible be grouped together, or can driving skill cause a car to be driven better than mechanically possible?

similarly classed cars should at least be able to perform similarly.
but if it's more comforting to beat a class with not even a close contender, so be it.


U can 't say similarly classes cars should perform similarly. I have seen cases where the class leader is simply leagues ahead in terms of skill, and it is represented by his or her times. If I gave Kirk my mini , do you think he would be running last in class?
So what then?
Remember when Kirk used to share licks in a CVT honda?

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Re: Proposed 2014 rule changes

Postby pete » October 4th, 2013, 9:33 am

Hmmm, thinking about it, with those PWRs, right now the system is 4 penalty points creates a class bump. So in ES, a car with PWR of 20.1 and another with 25.9 if they put on race tyres they both get bumped. If the range was 4, like your proposed 24.0-27.9, maybe each point you go up from there you get an extra penalty point deduction. So a car from 27.0-27.9 could get an additional 3 free penalty points.
24-24.9 4 points for bump
25.0-25.9 5 points for bump etc
That way a car down at the bottom of ES could put on race tyres and actually be competitive against a car right up at the top of the class, just like a car in HS might be competitive against and ES car etc.

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