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maj. tom wrote:And where God came from?
eitech wrote:Slartibartfast wrote:No problem man.eitech wrote:
Bare with me for a moment eh. You say faith is not the evidence but i am telling you it is. 1.Do you understand how that faith is exercised?
2.Do you know how long it will take you to get that evidence once you exercise that faith?
3.In your opinion, what do you think will happen if you exercise that faith?
Awaiting ur response.
1. So my understanding of faith is that it is a belief that is not based on evidence. "Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes" sums it up nicely I think. To exercise the faith means that you don't just believe in the teachings of the text but allow it to influence you actions and decisions.
2. I'm guessing that once you have faith (if you are using faith as your evidence) then by having faith you instantaneously gain the proof for it.
3. The effects of exercising the faith can be either good or bad depending on how you let it influence you. Performing charitable work in the name of God is good, keeping yazidi girls as sex slaves is bad. The problem arises when your holy book justifies atrocities and you commit them in good faith.
Now I say using faith as your proof is circular reasoning because you use your conclusion as your premise in the following manner
Premise
I believe that God exists and his teachings are true --> If I believe something then it must be true --> therefore God and his teachings are true because I believe in them --> I believe God exists and his teachings are true
Let me know if I misrepresented your argument or point of view anywhere.
1. Consider a person on their death bed and i told them to believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. A person in such a scenario wouldn’t even know about teachings from the text and as such cannot act upon that due to their current situation. If he just believes alone is the point i trying to make. You dont have to do anything prior. Just believe.
2. If point 1 is the action, and i said after believing u would have proof. What hinders a person from taking a moment if the result is instant?
I wont comment on what was said after. I am trying to get the foundation clear as day.
I tried explaining the concept of trust to someone else last week and it is hard for the unbeliever to grasp, i mean i was once there. But as i think of it more i am realising that trust may not be the actually issue, but the desire to know the truth has to be real. God will only reveal himself to you if you have that desire.
That sam harris/ jordan peterson debate was interesting. Alot of words i had to google. Lol. But those guys put alot of time and effort into their research. Not everyone can afford to to that, certainly not me. I have had only one source material and yet i could have related to many things he said if you look past the eloquent vocabulary.
Slartibartfast wrote:eitech wrote:Slartibartfast wrote:No problem man.eitech wrote:
Bare with me for a moment eh. You say faith is not the evidence but i am telling you it is. 1.Do you understand how that faith is exercised?
2.Do you know how long it will take you to get that evidence once you exercise that faith?
3.In your opinion, what do you think will happen if you exercise that faith?
Awaiting ur response.
1. So my understanding of faith is that it is a belief that is not based on evidence. "Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes" sums it up nicely I think. To exercise the faith means that you don't just believe in the teachings of the text but allow it to influence you actions and decisions.
2. I'm guessing that once you have faith (if you are using faith as your evidence) then by having faith you instantaneously gain the proof for it.
3. The effects of exercising the faith can be either good or bad depending on how you let it influence you. Performing charitable work in the name of God is good, keeping yazidi girls as sex slaves is bad. The problem arises when your holy book justifies atrocities and you commit them in good faith.
Now I say using faith as your proof is circular reasoning because you use your conclusion as your premise in the following manner
Premise
I believe that God exists and his teachings are true --> If I believe something then it must be true --> therefore God and his teachings are true because I believe in them --> I believe God exists and his teachings are true
Let me know if I misrepresented your argument or point of view anywhere.
1. Consider a person on their death bed and i told them to believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. A person in such a scenario wouldn’t even know about teachings from the text and as such cannot act upon that due to their current situation. If he just believes alone is the point i trying to make. You dont have to do anything prior. Just believe.
2. If point 1 is the action, and i said after believing u would have proof. What hinders a person from taking a moment if the result is instant?
I wont comment on what was said after. I am trying to get the foundation clear as day.
I tried explaining the concept of trust to someone else last week and it is hard for the unbeliever to grasp, i mean i was once there. But as i think of it more i am realising that trust may not be the actually issue, but the desire to know the truth has to be real. God will only reveal himself to you if you have that desire.
That sam harris/ jordan peterson debate was interesting. Alot of words i had to google. Lol. But those guys put alot of time and effort into their research. Not everyone can afford to to that, certainly not me. I have had only one source material and yet i could have related to many things he said if you look past the eloquent vocabulary.
Yeah don't feel bad. I had google assistant on speed dial for that debate. Regardless of your stance though, you are sure to learn something. But back to what you are saying.
If faith is all that is required and actions don't matter then the God you worship is clearly a very vain God. And brings me back to the Marcus Aurelius quote from earlier.
Now you talk about faith being all that I need. The problem with that is that I wasn't born an atheist. My parents were very strict catholics (in a good way, they practiced what they preached). I became very involved in the Church after graduating because I honestly wanted my knowledge of the faith to be on par with my knowledge of science as I believed that necessary to be a well rounded worshipper of God. I even toyed with the idea of going into the priesthood a couple times. My faith was unwaivering even though something felt wrong to me since I was a child. I thought this doubt was due to my ignorance and tried to purge it with more and more knowledge of the faith but the better my understanding became the stronger my doubt grew.
It all reached a tipping point one evening in while I was attending an all night mass and prayer vigil hostes by the pope with 2,000,000 other people from around the world. I had been taking part in world youth day for the two weeks prior.
Mid-hymn I looked around to take in the sureal scene of being in the midst of 2,000,000 people being "moved" by the spirit and swaying in time with eachother and the pleasant tune. The twinkle of a million candle lights in the cool night breeze was a sight to behold. The Irish girl I had been chatting to for the past couple hours still stood next to me. It was at that moment I heard my voice die and felt my faith die with it.
I'll be honest. I felt instantly sick. Like I needed to emotionally throw up, if that makes sense. You see, I had honestly given my faith my best shot. I tried my best to give myself to God and the church. I was "blessed with opportunities to speak with bishops and arch bishops from Spain, England and Rome. I did everything that I was told and obeyed God's laws to the letter and at what should have been the epitome of my spiritual experience I felt nothing.
Then I felt lied to. I felt betrayed. But, the worst part is, with no faith left I realised that tuere was no God to be the culprit. I betrayed and lied to myself. Since I could remember being concious I always knew that something felt off. I could still remember sitting at the end of the pew just in front of the side entrance to St. Mary's church (before they redid the cieling in 1998) when I first felt that uneasy feeling that something didn't make sense. I was 5 years old at the time and I was 21 years old now. It hurt to admit to myself that I had been ignoring my rationality for the past 16 years. At that moment I made a vow to never lie to myself again.
So you see, my lack of faith is not from lack of trying. Faith is defined as belief without proof and cannot be considered proof. How can something be considered as the same, as that thing that it is defined as the absence of? I guess by suspending logic and lying to yourself about your deductive reasoning. Similar to how atheism is considered a type of religious belief.
Anyway. Hope you enjoy reading that as much as I enjoyed writing. I'm trying to practice my prose. Lol. Gonna get to the rest of replies tmorrow. Game of thrones start so I'm out for tonight.
Slartibartfast wrote: I wasn't born an atheist. I became very involved in the Church after graduating because I honestly wanted my knowledge of the faith to be on par with my knowledge of science as I believed that necessary to be a well rounded worshipper of God. I even toyed with the idea of going into the priesthood a couple times. My faith was unwavering even though something felt wrong to me since I was a child. (You were indoctrinated and that became part of your problem. When you started to question, you did not get the right answers. Church doctrine and what God wants us to understand are 2 very different thing.)
It all reached a tipping point one evening in while I was attending an all night mass and prayer vigil hosted by the pope (There you go! More indoctrination and propaganda)with 2,000,000 other people from around the world. I had been taking part in world youth day for the two weeks prior.
Mid-hymn I looked around to take in the sureal scene of being in the midst of 2,000,000 people being "moved" by the spirit and swaying in time with eachother and the pleasant tune. The twinkle of a million candle lights in the cool night breeze was a sight to behold. The Irish girl I had been chatting to for the past couple hours still stood next to me. It was at that moment I heard my voice die and felt my faith die with it.
I'll be honest. I felt instantly sick. Like I needed to emotionally throw up, if that makes sense. You see, I had honestly given my faith my best shot. I tried my best to give myself to God and the church. I was "blessed with opportunities to speak with bishops and arch bishops from Spain, England and Rome. I did everything that I was told and obeyed God's laws to the letter(That was the Church's law NOT God's law) and at what should have been the epitome of my spiritual experience I felt nothing.
Then I felt lied to. I felt betrayed. But, the worst part is, with no faith left I realised that there was no God to be the culprit. I betrayed and lied to myself. Since I could remember being concious I always knew that something felt off. I could still remember sitting at the end of the pew just in front of the side entrance to St. Mary's church (before they redid the cieling in 1998) when I first felt that uneasy feeling that something didn't make sense. I was 5 years old at the time and I was 21 years old now. It hurt to admit to myself that I had been ignoring my rationality for the past 16 years. At that moment I made a vow to never lie to myself again.
Faith is defined as belief without proof and cannot be considered proof. How can something be considered as the same, as that thing that it is defined as the absence of? I guess by suspending logic and lying to yourself about your deductive reasoning. Similar to how atheism is considered a type of religious belief.
Anyway. Hope you enjoy reading that as much as I enjoyed writing. I'm trying to practice my prose. Lol. Gonna get to the rest of replies tmorrow. Game of thrones start so I'm out for tonight.
Slartibartfast wrote:This is why I ask you guys to outline exactly what you believe that you think makes your arguments so convincing and your reasoning so sure. I have yet to find an argument that does not defy logic. Saying that I left the faith due to bad doctrine is a cheap cop out without know how I was indoctrinated. At least provide me with the "good doctrine" that everyone speaks of. I have yet to hear arguments that come close to what I was taught years ago. I known priests get a bad rep for the pedophelia and backwards thinking sometimes but there are priests out there that are highly qualified and skilled philosophers. In fact, it was a priest that lectured me in philosophy. The priests I have met have dedicated their life to studying the bible and philosophy. Why do you think that they would not be qualified to form an opinion on belief independent of the Church.
I am saying that despite the best arguments I've heard to date, I still see no more reason to believe in God than unicorns. I'm saying that seep in my heart I always knew that there was no reason for me to believe.
Also, I'm not saying I have to reason to believe in Jesus or the Christian God. I'm saying that I see no reason to believe in any God. I'm open to hearing about all religions and personal faith systems.
The best arguments I've heard for religion to date are those of Jordan Peterson and he changed my mind to think that the "baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater" so to speak. So what interests me the most right now is sorting the baby from the bathwater when it comes to religions. I mean, after studying this for decades, it will always fascinate and interest me. That's why I always get sucked back into this thread.
eitech wrote:But above all, if you hold on to your reasoning of faith you would never get it. That’s the point you need to see for yourself to understand
Slartibartfast wrote:eitech wrote:But above all, if you hold on to your reasoning of faith you would never get it. That’s the point you need to see for yourself to understand
Of course not. Reasoning is how we make sense of the world. Is your argument basically telling me that it won't make sense if I think about it so what I need to do is not think about it and just accept that it makes sense (but not think about it making sense because it doesn't make sense if i think about it?
MG Man wrote:Ben_spanna wrote:Everyone has to believe that whatever they grew up knowing as their primary religion should be the true gateway to afterlife. Its just up to people to respect everyones individual upbringings and beliefs.
I have a serious problem with this. Why are we required / expected to respect other ppl religious beliefs? I have a deep love and passion for my old car....probably more than some have for jesus / allah / bramha....does that mean out of respect for my deep rooted belief and lifestyle that nobody should poke fun at me and my car? Of course not, that would be crazy
Yet, Bob believes in a man in the sky and it's cool to walk around a chunk of meteorite embedded in an old building, and it's criminal to point and laugh? Jane believes in a ghost who died but really didn't because he was immortal anyway, thereby absolving himself of any true sacrifice, and I can't kyak kyak when her procession ledd by a dude toting a heavy plank is walking up Sando hill?????
One of the most gross crimes against humanity is this thing about respecting religious beliefs....heck the same ones who demand it are the same ones who send out missionaries to convert those who believe in other stuff....
Everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want, but NOBODY should be denied the right to point and laugh at the beliefs of others
eitech wrote:Slartibartfast wrote:eitech wrote:But above all, if you hold on to your reasoning of faith you would never get it. That’s the point you need to see for yourself to understand
Of course not. Reasoning is how we make sense of the world. Is your argument basically telling me that it won't make sense if I think about it so what I need to do is not think about it and just accept that it makes sense (but not think about it making sense because it doesn't make sense if i think about it?
Ur right. Reasoning is how we make sense of the world. What i am speakin of is something not of this world. Remember, the evidence of things not seen. By way of natural reasoning it will never make sense.
Slartibartfast wrote:
I'm no longer interested in disproving religion, I'm interested in proving that worshipers and atheists can support and empower eachother in a way that is good.
FordeG wrote:I feel like either bouncing his vehicle or setting of the alarm constantly to irritate him.
DNA testing works,Zetski wrote:I can end this entire religious discussion in one line.... watch me
DNA disproves the evolution theory.. DNA doesn’t code new information.. only from existing.
maj. tom wrote:Really now Zetski? I see you don't know anything about DNA or reproduction.
So how mutations that randomly arise are passed onto the next generation?
I suggest that you do some more reading. I found one of the simplest websites that could explain this, with diagrams for you: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibra ... tations_04
Rovin wrote:not making offense about anybody religion eh but ...
https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... Dre5a6e4rc
Car stolen while priest blesses house
Roman Catholic Priest, Father Urban Hudlin’s car was stolen last Saturday while he was visiting a home in Diego Martin.
Hudlin, who is stationed at the Holy Cross Priory in Arima, was reportedly at the home to bless it.
While praying, his vehicle was stolen.
He is said to be traumatised by the experience.
Father Hudlin’s possessions, including an iPad and other important documents were still inside the vehicle.
The car is a blue Wingroad license plate PCL 4508.
Family members say that the vehicle was recovered with the license plate already swapped.
It is uncertain if Hudlin’s possessions were also recovered.
eitech wrote:Rovin wrote:not making offense about anybody religion eh but ...
https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... Dre5a6e4rc
Car stolen while priest blesses house
Roman Catholic Priest, Father Urban Hudlin’s car was stolen last Saturday while he was visiting a home in Diego Martin.
Hudlin, who is stationed at the Holy Cross Priory in Arima, was reportedly at the home to bless it.
While praying, his vehicle was stolen.
He is said to be traumatised by the experience.
Father Hudlin’s possessions, including an iPad and other important documents were still inside the vehicle.
The car is a blue Wingroad license plate PCL 4508.
Family members say that the vehicle was recovered with the license plate already swapped.
It is uncertain if Hudlin’s possessions were also recovered.
There is nothin to be offended about here. Some like to preach no weapon formed against them will prosper....believers get sick, robbed, die, all the same...
A couple years ago a RC priest was interviewed for xmas and he said he stopped blessing toys cuz its not scriptural but if others want to do it he has no problem. That shows you the level of ignorance. And they continue to bless inanimate objects and ppl who don’t know better will feel good. No value whatsoever.
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