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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » July 5th, 2012, 11:32 pm

Meanwhile, in the world of the Christians:

All-white conference to end with ‘sacred Christian cross lighting’
Alabama pastor, William J. Collier, has upset local residents by hosting a conference only open to “all white Christians.”

Comments (62)
By Christina Boyle / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Published: Thursday, July 5, 2012, 12:26 PM
Updated: Thursday, July 5, 2012, 12:26 PM

An Alabama pastor, William J. Collier, has upset local residents by hosting a conference only open to “all white Christians.”

Winfield locals woke up Monday to see fliers in their neighborhood advertising the three-day event which ends with a “Sacred Christian Cross Lighting Ceremony,” WECT-TV6 reported.

“It was put up throughout the town in the middle of the night. When everyone was asleep without the permission of the business owner,” said Tyler Cantrell, manager of Norris Music in downtown where one of the inflammatory posters was found.

The event, which runs from July 4 through Friday, is taking place is neighboring Lamar County but still incensed Winfield residents, Mayor Wayne Silas said.

ImagePastor William J. Collier, who organized the conference, says his fliers were not created to spark controversy and his Church of God’s Chosen, a Christian Identity Ministry, is not founded on hate but he does believe “the white race is God’s chosen people.”

“Business people are upset. The city is upset. The city of Winfield does not condone this,” Silas said.

The reverend who organized the conference said his fliers were not created to spark controversy and his Church of God’s Chosen, a Christian Identity Ministry, is not founded on hate but he does believe “the white race is God’s chosen people.”

“We don’t have the facilities to accommodate other people,” Collier told WECT-TV6.

“We haven’t got any invitations to black, Muslim events. Of course we are not invited to Jewish events and stuff.”

ImageThe flier for the "Annual Pastors Conference," where only white christians were invited, takes place in Lamar county. “Business people are upset. The city is upset. The city of Winfield (which borders Lamar) does not condone this,” Winfield Mayor Wayne Silas said.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... z1zoG48aYn

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby thermaltake » July 5th, 2012, 11:33 pm

AdamB wrote:[quote="Humes

Aisha hadn't even reached puberty. She was married off when she was 6. Even if she reached puberty at age 9, Mohammed rubbed his penis between her thighs before she was 9. Get the facts straight.

Where are you getting your facts from? The source of your evidence? We muslims verify information that comes to us, otherwise gossip and slander will reign supreme.

The Messenger of God saw ‘A’ishah twice- [first when] it was said to him that she was his wife (she was six years old at that time), and later [when] he consummated she was nine years old.

These are lies being fabricated. He had no contact with her until after she was of age 9. He had migrated from Mecca to Medina. Her father, Abu Bakr, accompanied him on the journey. She was not with them. She did not live with him between age 6 and 9.

So where this penis rubbing thing come from?[/quote]
lol i didn't even waste my time to tell him dat was fabricated... i just let him talk.. they just saying all kinda thing and have no proof..

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 5th, 2012, 11:38 pm

stickman wrote:http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha

Read this entire article.

Pal,

That's not evidence, that's heresay. Anyone can post / change information on that site.

The evidence comes from hadith books: Bukhari, muslim, tirmidhi, ibn majah, abu dawud, an-nasai.

Remember we talking about over 1400yrs ago, so please quote from these, check it out YOURSELVES.

FOR THOSE WHO HAVE JUDGED OR FORMED FIRM OPINIONS WITHOUT VERIFYING INFORMATION.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby stickman » July 5th, 2012, 11:42 pm

AdamB wrote:
stickman wrote:http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha

Read this entire article.

Pal,

That's not evidence, that's heresay. Anyone can post / change information on that site.

The evidence comes from hadith books: Bukhari, muslim, tirmidhi, ibn majah, abu dawud, an-nasai.

Remember we talking about over 1400yrs ago, so please quote from these, check it out YOURSELVES.

FOR THOSE WHO HAVE JUDGED OR FORMED FIRM OPINIONS WITHOUT VERIFYING INFORMATION.


Like any wiki, there are references used to verify the material present.

You can also view the hadith on external websites.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 5th, 2012, 11:45 pm

thermaltake wrote:
AdamB wrote:[quote="Humes

Aisha hadn't even reached puberty. She was married off when she was 6. Even if she reached puberty at age 9, Mohammed rubbed his penis between her thighs before she was 9. Get the facts straight.

Where are you getting your facts from? The source of your evidence? We muslims verify information that comes to us, otherwise gossip and slander will reign supreme.

The Messenger of God saw ‘A’ishah twice- [first when] it was said to him that she was his wife (she was six years old at that time), and later [when] he consummated she was nine years old.

These are lies being fabricated. He had no contact with her until after she was of age 9. He had migrated from Mecca to Medina. Her father, Abu Bakr, accompanied him on the journey. She was not with them. She did not live with him between age 6 and 9.

So where this penis rubbing thing come from?

lol i didn't even waste my time to tell him dat was fabricated... i just let him talk.. they just saying all kinda thing and have no proof..[/quote]
Brother,
just cool it down a lil bit nah.

In a court of law, it's the evidence that's considered.

They don't know (are ignorant) that 4 of the 6 hadith books contain weak fabricated hadith which are lies that the enemies of Islam tried to cause confusion as we are seeing on this forum now.

They don't know that we have the system of classification of hadith in order to separate the weak / fabricated from the sound and good categories.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 5th, 2012, 11:49 pm

stickman wrote:
AdamB wrote:
stickman wrote:http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha

Read this entire article.

Pal,

That's not evidence, that's heresay. Anyone can post / change information on that site.

The evidence comes from hadith books: Bukhari, muslim, tirmidhi, ibn majah, abu dawud, an-nasai.

Remember we talking about over 1400yrs ago, so please quote from these, check it out YOURSELVES.

FOR THOSE WHO HAVE JUDGED OR FORMED FIRM OPINIONS WITHOUT VERIFYING INFORMATION.


Like any wiki, there are references used to verify the material present.

You can also view the hadith on external websites.

well then check it and tell meh nah!

Humes also invited to research. Evidence, bring it.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby stickman » July 5th, 2012, 11:49 pm

I know of the Hadith ranking. I mentioned it a couple pages earlier.

And I strongly disagree, that is used to filter out any negative hadith, hence why Aisha's narratives are looked down upon.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Humes » July 5th, 2012, 11:57 pm

Fatwa 23672, detailed here allows certain sexual practices between adult men and their child brides, including the aforementioned thighing.

Islamic scholar Dr Ahmad Al-Hajj Al-Kurdi, commenting on the fatwa, said the following:

It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed his [male] member between her thighs and massaged it softly, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers.


Not a Koranic verse, not a hadith, but a justification of the practice by Islamic scholars who seem sure that Mohammed engaged in it.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 5th, 2012, 11:58 pm

stickman wrote:I know of the Hadith ranking. I mentioned it a couple pages earlier.

And I strongly disagree, that is used to filter out any negative hadith, hence why Aisha's narratives are looked down upon.

What I am saying is that someone had to witness and report the incident. If it is Aisha, then she would have reported a recollection from when she was between 6 to 9 yrs old. How reliable generally is the memory of a child that age? Aisha was known later on for having an excellent memory. I am not disputing that but the fact is that a hadith is has a text and a chain of narrators. Analysis of these narrators leads to classification of the hadith. Also, if there are more than one chain then it lends supporting evidence.

So I say, bring the report first and then let's move forward.

Don't form opinion without evidence. I think you all would agree that's reasonable.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby stickman » July 6th, 2012, 12:07 am

AdamB wrote:
stickman wrote:I know of the Hadith ranking. I mentioned it a couple pages earlier.

And I strongly disagree, that is used to filter out any negative hadith, hence why Aisha's narratives are looked down upon.

What I am saying is that someone had to witness and report the incident. If it is Aisha, then she would have reported a recollection from when she was between 6 to 9 yrs old. How reliable generally is the memory of a child that age? Aisha was known later on for having an excellent memory. I am not disputing that but the fact is that a hadith is has a text and a chain of narrators. Analysis of these narrators leads to classification of the hadith. Also, if there are more than one chain then it lends supporting evidence.

So I say, bring the report first and then let's move forward.

Don't form opinion without evidence. I think you all would agree that's reasonable.


In a bath, it would be Aisha and Muhammad alone, who else is there to report the incident? It was probably the first time such a thing happened to her, she must have remembered it clearly (this is an assumption on my part).

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Humes » July 6th, 2012, 12:09 am

AdamB, you're free to contend and dismiss the thighing accusation if the evidence presented isn't enough for you.

But the sexual intercourse at age nine is incontrovertibly supported by hadiths. The questions I've asked before still stand.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 6th, 2012, 12:15 am

Humes wrote:Fatwa 23672, detailed here allows certain sexual practices between adult men and their child brides, including the aforementioned thighing.

Islamic scholar Dr Ahmad Al-Hajj Al-Kurdi, commenting on the fatwa, said the following:

It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed his [male] member between her thighs and massaged it softly, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers.


Not a Koranic verse, not a hadith, but a justification of the practice by Islamic scholars who seem sure that Mohammed engaged in it.

Sometimes ppl put their foot in their mouth. Any comments must be based on hadith.

This also from the WIKI article:
"It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his male member between her thighs, and to kiss her." Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's, "Tahrir Al wasila," p. 241, issue number 12.

These are Shia, as far as we (Ahlus-sunnah wal jamaah) are concerned they are not muslims or have deviated beyond the limits of Islam.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 6th, 2012, 12:18 am

stickman wrote:
AdamB wrote:
stickman wrote:I know of the Hadith ranking. I mentioned it a couple pages earlier.

And I strongly disagree, that is used to filter out any negative hadith, hence why Aisha's narratives are looked down upon.

What I am saying is that someone had to witness and report the incident. If it is Aisha, then she would have reported a recollection from when she was between 6 to 9 yrs old. How reliable generally is the memory of a child that age? Aisha was known later on for having an excellent memory. I am not disputing that but the fact is that a hadith is has a text and a chain of narrators. Analysis of these narrators leads to classification of the hadith. Also, if there are more than one chain then it lends supporting evidence.

So I say, bring the report first and then let's move forward.

Don't form opinion without evidence. I think you all would agree that's reasonable.


In a bath, it would be Aisha and Muhammad alone, who else is there to report the incident? It was probably the first time such a thing happened to her, she must have remembered it clearly (this is an assumption on my part).

they didn't have "baths" in the desert. barely had food and water.

please do all the internet searching you can and BRING SOME FORM OF EVIDENCE.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Humes » July 6th, 2012, 12:20 am

AdamB:

AdamB, you're free to contend and dismiss the thighing accusation if the evidence presented isn't enough for you.

But the sexual intercourse at age nine is incontrovertibly supported by hadiths.

Is sexual intercourse with a nine-year-old girl an action or attitude of the prophet that you would emulate?

Do you think it's something that should be practiced and allowed in modern society?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Humes » July 6th, 2012, 12:39 am

I was hoping that one of these fellas would respond like this guy on Trinimuslims.com:

Many brothers and sisters feel, dare I say, embarrassed, or even ashamed of this if asked or jeered about it by their non-Muslim friends and family, even many Muslims are in denial of this fact and choose to keep clear of it, concentrating on more “appropriate” parts of the Prophet (s.a.w.)’s life…

Astagfirallah! Do we truly feel shame to admit this? Do we hide and steer clear of this topic, ARE WE ASHAMED OF THE PROPHET (s.a.w.)? Ya Allah! Is this how weak our Islam has become in many of our hearts?

Well today, I’m here to tell you what an incredible milestone this event was, and how much it benefited me as a Muslim, and the lessons I learned from the engagement of the Prophet (s.a.w.) to Aishah at the age of 6 and the consummation of their marriage at the age of 9.


...And then he goes on to talk a pack of rubbish. But I at least respect the fact that he deals with the topic head on. He doesn't deny, deflect and distract like a politician, which is what we typically see going on in here.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby TonyM » July 6th, 2012, 12:53 am

take a read

http://www.islamic-fatwa.net

Question 1809

After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question forwarded by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/5/1453 and 7/5/1421 (Islamic calendar)

Question: ‘It has become widespread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children. (mufa’khathat - literally translated, it means “placing between the thighs” which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child).

What is the opinion of scholars, knowing full well that the prophet, the peace of Allah be upon him, also practiced the “thighing” of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be pleased with her ?

Answer: After studying the issue, the committee has answered as follows:

As for the prophet, his thighing his fiancée Aisha when she was six years of age and not able to consummate the relationship was due to her small age. That is why the Prophet used to place his male member between her thighs and massage it, as the prophet had control of his male member not like other men.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements:

"A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

“It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.”

Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's "Tahrir Al wasila" p. 241, issue number 12

"Young boys or girls in full sexual effervescence are kept from getting married before they reach the legal age of majority. This is against the intention of divine laws. Why should the marriage of pubescent girls and boys be forbidden because they are still minors, when they are allowed to listen to the radio and to sexually arousing music?"

"The Little Green Book" "Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini", Bantam Books

MUHAMMAD, THE PROPHET OF ISLAM

PART 1 MECCA

An Arab is regarded as an old man, a sheik, when he is fifty.

Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old in Mecca and she joined him in Medina three years later when he was 53. He began having sex with Aisha when she was nine years old and still playing with dolls.

This is the original story told by the ONLY valid biographers of Muhammad and Islam, Ibn Ishaq and Tabari, and the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim. Refer also to the works of the Qur’an commentators Ibn Kathir and Ibn Qayyim. (Ibn Kathir, The Life of the Prophet Muhammad (Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya), Volume II, translated by professor Trevor Le Gassick, Garnet Publishing Limited, UK. The Center for Muslim Contribution to Civilization, 2000. pp. 93-94)
(Ibn Qayyim Al-Juaziyyah, Zad-ul Ma’ad fi Hadyi Khairi-l ‘Ibad (Provisions for the Hereafter, From the Guidance of Allah’s Best Worshipper) translated by Jalal Abualrub, [Madinah Publishers & Distributors, December 2000] Volume I, pp. 157-158)

Muhammad said that he had dreamed of Aisha before demanding her from her father, and his own brother in Islam, Abu Bakr, claiming special ‘prophets rights’ when Abu Bakr was reluctant to give her to him.

Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235: Narrated 'Aisha: That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dreams. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said to me, 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother!"

The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Marriage to a female already offered to another was illegal in Arab law. Abu Bakr had already arranged for Aisha to marry Djubayr Mutim.

Muhammad married ‘A’isha in Mecca when she was a child of six and lived with her in Medina when she was nine or ten. She was the only virgin that he married. Her father, Abu Bakr, married her to him and the apostle gave her four hundred dirhams. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah (The Life of Muhammad) translated by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, p. 792)
Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”

Tabari IX:128 “When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.” [The History of Al-Tabari: The Foundation of the Community] translated by M.V. McDonald annotated by W. Montgomery Watt [State University of New York Press, Albany 1987], Volume VII, pp. 6-7) (The History of Al-Tabari: The Last Years of the Prophet, translated and annotated by Ismail K. Poonawala [State University of New York Press, Albany 1990], Volume IX, pp. 129-130)

Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 6th, 2012, 12:55 am

Humes wrote:AdamB:

AdamB, you're free to contend and dismiss the thighing accusation if the evidence presented isn't enough for you.

But the sexual intercourse at age nine is incontrovertibly supported by hadiths.

Is sexual intercourse with a nine-year-old girl an action or attitude of the prophet that you would emulate?

Do you think it's something that should be practiced and allowed in modern society?

I have no other choice but to dismiss it because I would then be partaking in slandering of my own prophet!!

Some of the actions that the prophets did, it was not their own choice but commands from GOD as the dream of the prophets are revelation. Like Abraham's dream to sacrifice his only son. Which sane-minded person would dream that and then consider it in reality?

Our prophet, Muhammad, some of his actions were to be the leader and show the way to do things. Also, as to set the law or presidence, in this case, as to the earliest age that a marriage consummation is allowed.
Marriage contracts were sometimes done in order to secure the interest of the child later on. Because the father may fear that he will die and then what will become of his girl child? Who would seek her interest of finding a good husband?

To answer your question, it's not an action that I would seek to emulate because we are not commanded by GOD or the prophet to do that. Their society was different from how ours are today. There are many mature women, virgin and divorced that are available. But if circumstances of war or natural disasters lead to minors needing protection, then it should be considered not as a norm but as a distant exception.

What is the basis of "modern society"? We are accustomed to certain norms in the west that some of the eastern concepts in comparison seem abnormal. Our society is such that people make the laws for themselves. In Islam we accept that GOD makes the laws for man. So, I won't and can't dismiss accepting it for myself if the conditions arise. Polygymy also.

Can we say the same of arranged Hindu marriages where the girl may not have a choice? We know that possibly the majority of these are good marriages once the girl is treated with respect. GOD then puts love and compassion(children also) in the marriage union.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby TonyM » July 6th, 2012, 1:01 am

^ well then adopt the children, don't consumate!

you are being apologetic and making illogical excuses.

AdamB wrote:Some of the actions that the prophets did, it was not their own choice but commands from GOD as the dream of the prophets are revelation. Like Abraham's dream to sacrifice his only son. Which sane-minded person would dream that and then consider it in reality?
yes but God stopped Abraham. The Prophet didnt stop in this case.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby thermaltake » July 6th, 2012, 1:22 am

Humes wrote:I was hoping that one of these fellas would respond like this guy on Trinimuslims.com:

Many brothers and sisters feel, dare I say, embarrassed, or even ashamed of this if asked or jeered about it by their non-Muslim friends and family, even many Muslims are in denial of this fact and choose to keep clear of it, concentrating on more “appropriate” parts of the Prophet (s.a.w.)’s life…

Astagfirallah! Do we truly feel shame to admit this? Do we hide and steer clear of this topic, ARE WE ASHAMED OF THE PROPHET (s.a.w.)? Ya Allah! Is this how weak our Islam has become in many of our hearts?

Well today, I’m here to tell you what an incredible milestone this event was, and how much it benefited me as a Muslim, and the lessons I learned from the engagement of the Prophet (s.a.w.) to Aishah at the age of 6 and the consummation of their marriage at the age of 9.


...And then he goes on to talk a pack of rubbish. But I at least respect the fact that he deals with the topic head on. He doesn't deny, deflect and distract like a politician, which is what we typically see going on in here.

ONLY YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASK QUESTIONS? I NOW UNDERSTAND YOU...

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 6th, 2012, 1:26 am

TonyM wrote:^ well then adopt the children, don't consumate!

you are being apologetic and making illogical excuses.

AdamB wrote:Some of the actions that the prophets did, it was not their own choice but commands from GOD as the dream of the prophets are revelation. Like Abraham's dream to sacrifice his only son. Which sane-minded person would dream that and then consider it in reality?
yes but God stopped Abraham. The Prophet didnt stop in this case.

Children between the age of puberty and 18 are considered adults in Islam. They didn't have play parks, video games, Xbox, PS, etc to keep them children until age 18. No, they grew up quickly as they did in Trinidad less than a century ago.

This practise is not perpetuated upon by Muslims in general.

The article quoted again by TonyM is Shia. Just take a look at the first part with "The Little Green Book Sayings" by Ayatollah Khomeini compared with the second part with Bukhari hadith and well known scholars of hadith and quran like Ibn Qayyim, Ibn Ishaq, Ibn kathir, Tabari. All the filth is in the first part with no supporting evidence from the second part.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby TonyM » July 6th, 2012, 1:55 am

^ I've heard of blind faith, but ignorant faith is new to me.

Bukhari wrote:Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.


9 is not puberty.

Read medical facts:
"The major landmark of puberty for males is the first ejaculation, which occurs on average at age 13. For females, it is menarche, the onset of menstruation, which occurs on average between ages 12 and 13. In the 21st century, the average age at which children reach puberty is lower compared to the 19th century, when it was 15 for girls and 16 for boys. This is possibly due to chemicals in food items or a better nutrition."

You yourself said back then in the desert hardly had food and water so chances are the age of puberty would have been way past 9 years old.

is Bukhari wrong now?

and what do you mean by "This act is not perpetuated by Muslims now"?
What is Sunnah? Not living as close to the way the Prophet did?
Do you choose to follow only what feels comfortable to you? It seems that is what Sunni beliefs are based on, only following the good parts. Yet you condemn Shia Muslims.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Humes » July 6th, 2012, 2:18 am

AdamB wrote:To answer your question, it's not an action that I would seek to emulate because we are not commanded by GOD or the prophet to do that. Their society was different from how ours are today. There are many mature women, virgin and divorced that are available. But if circumstances of war or natural disasters lead to minors needing protection, then it should be considered not as a norm but as a distant exception.

What is the basis of "modern society"? We are accustomed to certain norms in the west that some of the eastern concepts in comparison seem abnormal. Our society is such that people make the laws for themselves. In Islam we accept that GOD makes the laws for man. So, I won't and can't dismiss accepting it for myself if the conditions arise. Polygymy also.


I applaud you for finally answering a question (more or less) directly.

That said, I don't think your answer is well-reasoned at all. Firstly, you're applying moral relativism, which automatically invalidates the supposed infallibility of the Koran. You're saying that certain practices that you see as wrong now, can be acceptable depending on the time and culture. The implications of this reasoning...well I doh think I have to explain it.

And why do you have to marry and have sex with children to protect them? Why not just...protect them? Adopt them or something, as TonyM says.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Humes » July 6th, 2012, 2:22 am

AdamB wrote:This practise is not perpetuated upon by Muslims in general.


I kinda curious about this statement myself.

Why point that out? And why isn't it perpetuated by many Muslims? If it's just fine and acceptable and an action of Mohammed, shouldn't it be emulated?

Isn't the emulation of the Prophet's actions and attitude an obligation of all Muslims? If it's okay to dress and groom yourself like him, even though those styles are out of place in the modern world...why not marry a child like him?

Also, is there a verse of hadith that details the circumstances in which you can marry a child?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Daran » July 6th, 2012, 7:26 am

Humes wrote:
AdamB wrote:To answer your question, it's not an action that I would seek to emulate because we are not commanded by GOD or the prophet to do that. Their society was different from how ours are today. There are many mature women, virgin and divorced that are available. But if circumstances of war or natural disasters lead to minors needing protection, then it should be considered not as a norm but as a distant exception.

What is the basis of "modern society"? We are accustomed to certain norms in the west that some of the eastern concepts in comparison seem abnormal. Our society is such that people make the laws for themselves. In Islam we accept that GOD makes the laws for man. So, I won't and can't dismiss accepting it for myself if the conditions arise. Polygymy also.


I applaud you for finally answering a question (more or less) directly.

That said, I don't think your answer is well-reasoned at all. Firstly, you're applying moral relativism, which automatically invalidates the supposed infallibility of the Koran. You're saying that certain practices that you see as wrong now, can be acceptable depending on the time and culture. The implications of this reasoning...well I doh think I have to explain it.

And why do you have to marry and have sex with children to protect them? Why not just...protect them? Adopt them or something, as TonyM says.


You hit the nail on the head there man.

AdamB, are you saying that certain laws and customs that were relevant and perhaps appropriate 1400 years ago are no longer applicable in modern society?

So how does a young muslim go around picking and choosing which islamic laws to follow?

Should homosexuality, pre-marital sex, dressing in skimpy clothes, drinking alcohol be allowed?

1400 years has past, you all need to keep up.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 6th, 2012, 7:43 am

Daran,
You're being ridiculous.

I HAVE NOT SAID THAT IT IS WRONG THEN OR NOW!! PLEASE NOTE.

IT IS PERMISSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO PRACTISE IT (WHERE THE CONDITIONS APPLY).

I am allowed to marry up to 4 wives, maybe not legally in T'dad but in sight of GOD. If I choose to only have one, that's my prerogative.
What religion do you follow? If you don't understand mine, then by all means, stick to your own.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby AdamB » July 6th, 2012, 7:53 am

It is well known that in most societies there are much more women than men. When they reach "OF AGE", what do they do? Be exploited via prostitution, human trafficking? Indulge in illegal sexual intercourse AS IS THE NORM TODAY? Children out of wedlock, broken homes, single parentage, etc.
SOME OF THE CAUSES OF MAJOR PROBLEMS IN "MODERN SOCIETY"?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Dizzy28 » July 6th, 2012, 8:19 am

thermaltake wrote:i have a little advice for you guys.. try to educate your self.. learn somthing.. or to your question.. if a man wants to marry a girl of the age of nine i see nothing wrong in that once her parents agree.. also he must wait for her to be mature to consummate the marriage..

take look at the videos and learn ah lil sumtin..

do you guys like having your daughters, wives, mothers dressing half naked for the world to see?
do you guys like crime?
you guys like to see ppl get killed everyday?
you guys like to see young girls getting rape everyday?
like to see people car get thief and people house get rob?
like when alyuh wife horn yuh?
like to see gay ppl all ova the place..

Islam has the answer for all problems in society.. But just the people wont make use of it.. As i said b4 people wage war only against the truth..that is They wage war against Jesus, Moses and the last Muhammad s.a.w...


Then why are Islamic countries in such turmoil?? Islam cannot even solve the sectarian differences between Sunni and Shia.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby stickman » July 6th, 2012, 8:50 am

AdamB wrote:It is well known that in most societies there are much more women than men. When they reach "OF AGE", what do they do? Be exploited via prostitution, human trafficking? Indulge in illegal sexual intercourse AS IS THE NORM TODAY? Children out of wedlock, broken homes, single parentage, etc.
SOME OF THE CAUSES OF MAJOR PROBLEMS IN "MODERN SOCIETY"?


But in the Islamic world, there are more men than women:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _sex_ratio

So why can't women have four husbands? Why can't they have 72 virgin men in Paradise?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Daran » July 6th, 2012, 9:29 am

AdamB,

You are using your 'religion' to justify the unjustifiable. There are many things that Islam 'allows' that in mature civilized societies is illegal. Why do you think that is?

As for a man being allowed 4 wives, I see no problem with that except, why limit it to 4 and secondly why not allow women the same right?

For an outside perspective Islam appears to be a cult that's express purpose is to control followers and the women.

Many religions are guilty of this for as leaders in all societies realized religion was the easiest way to control the masses.

Fundamentalist like you are a big problem in my opinion. You seek the use your religion to justify all sorts of weird ideals. Your twisting and turning is reminiscent of a politician trying to explain why he hasn't performed.

I firmly disagree that Islam or any religion is good for society. If people want to seek refuge in it, fine. Who am I to tell you what to think. But the entire concept of religion and the vast numbers of religions that exist clearly show that is should NO part to play in the governance of a country and its laws.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby thermaltake » July 6th, 2012, 9:29 am

when the prophet pbuh went on the journey with angel Gabriel hes saw two men in hell sitting and eating.. there was a bowl with fresh good food and a bowl with rotten smelly food but they was eating from the bowl with the rotten smelly food.. he then asked the angel why these men eat from the spoil food and not from the good food.. the angel then replied that these men use to leave their wives at home and go out sleeping around with bad women so now their punishment is to eat rotten meat.... But what non-muslims do is condemn muslims for marrying more than one woman... which is better to marry more than one woman or to marry one woman and cant control yourself and then go to clubs and pubs for rotten meat?

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