Lady Young Touge...a discussion on skill set...

[MG Man]

Goodyear Eagle F1s
good stuff man
those tyres are incredible

[Monk BANzai]

yup...they hooked..little tyre squeal...at one point the back stepped out a bit and my "Ox" days of correcting kicked in...got a slight snap back but it settled well...i'll sing praises of the Legacy anyday now...very very balanced car.

[Alpha_2nr]

very very balanced car

Having both a Legacy (N/A) and had a WRX in my garage at one point.....I hope that "balance" refers to driving feel or something!

Because I'm not a fan of Subaru's handling STYLE in anyway....and I'd hever describe their handling as balanced either (Legacy has better rear suspension btw)! And no.....not the whole "understeer" bandwagon most folks jump on.

It's just that the cars are a bit too front heavy, and cornering technique has to be brutal (no finesse)......but it may be more "idiot proof" ( ) in the sense that sheer AWD grip helps keep the car in "check".

IMHO, the cars can handle great! But it takes alot more hand and footwork to get the results you need/pivot the car as you like.


My 2c.

[crazybalhead]

Question, before Dex, I usually increase tyre pressure to reduce sidewall flex on hard cornering. It's a waste to do this kinda performance driving on street pressures. So the question, yuh pump it up, pump it up before yuh skin she out???

[MG Man]

dex corners are waaay more brutal than anything on the LYR
I would not run dex pressures on the road because of that fact, plus, you looking at two minutes sustained hard driving compared to a minute / min and ten sec at dex, so increasd tyre pressure toward the end would be a factor on LYR
Not to mention (well in my RWD case anyway) those high pressures make the car more susceptible to break away if you make an error or are forced to make a correction etc

[crazybalhead]

Anybody else? Interesting. I think it would do well to increase the pressures MG.

[MG Man]

yeah but not up to dex pressures
the reason we run hard tyres at dex is to save the sidewall from damage / maximize contact patch under those hard tight corners.............there's nothing like that on LYR
I would run maybe 2-4 psi over normal on the mini but not more, ie 30psi max
I normally run 28, and 34 at dex.........

[Monk BANzai]

hmm i was running 32 right around last last night....a bit too hard you think?

[MG Man]

for the weight of the car, I doubt it

[crazybalhead]

32 is not bad at all. I run 33 fr and 31 back for the street. up by four PSI for Dex.

[MG Man]

wow
I run 34 front 32 rear for dex with the MINI
on the HSR I run 34 / 28

[Monk BANzai]

ok....hmm never thought of running less pressures in the rear for a 4WD car....

[crazybalhead]

The thing on the door recommends that you do that Banzai. 31 PSI front and 29 rear. The PSI rating has nothing to do with the drive system, it's more to do with the weight distribution. Once yuh engine in front, unless yuh have some mampees in the back, the front should be higher.

Same principle with a pickup. Higher pressures for higher loads.

[nismoid]

lets all meet one night and 'test' the tyre pressures nah!

[Monk BANzai]

The thing on the door recommends that you do that Banzai. 31 PSI front and 29 rear. The PSI rating has nothing to do with the drive system, it's more to do with the weight distribution. Once yuh engine in front, unless yuh have some mampees in the back, the front should be higher.

Same principle with a pickup. Higher pressures for higher loads.

wud explain teh tendency of the rear to want to step out......

[crazybalhead]

As martha stewart would say, "That's a good thing". BUT I think if yuh lower the rear pressure, that tendency would get worse, your sidewalls would flex and roll over more.

So if yuh want, you could increase the front a couple clicks and try that.

[Alpha_2nr]

wud explain teh tendency of the rear to want to step out......

The back stepping out? Not really it doesn't explain it IMHO>

That's due to centre diff bias plus the rear LSD vs. the front open diff AFAIK.....

....not necessarily tyre pressures. IMHO, 2 psi "extra" in the back (32F/30R vs 32F/32R) wouldn't affect rear oversteer tendencies THAT significantly for most of our purposes...considering that it's an auto in question and you can't shock the drive train thru rapid power application as with a manual.

Again....my noob-cents.

BUT I think if yuh lower the rear pressure, that tendency would get worse, your sidewalls would flex and roll over more.

I'm under the impression that the sidewall flex would cause "less" overall movement from teh rear of teh car (since the tyre itself is absorbing some of the lateral motion) which hence would counteract any tendency to oversteer.

Well.....I stand to be corrected anyway.

[crazybalhead]

Hmmmm.

[cinco]

sense
lower rear pressure on my FWD would give me tighter grip in the turns less tendency for oversteering
dynamics on a awd would be the same?

[Alpha_2nr]

^^They would be....to a point. They both exhibit understeer under light corner throttle application.

E.g.

My FWD car (SSS) used to understeer in sharp corners if the power was applied too early. Applying while steering angle was less, out of the corner, helped. Of course, no front LSD = not good power delivery out of the corner. Braking into the corner helped induce a slide if timed right.

My "turbo AWD" car would understeer in sharp corners with light throttle applied similar to above, or even under medium braking. Power application right at the apex of the corner would hellp exit faster, as the front of the car would literally "claw it's way" out of the corner as my steering angle decreased. A qucik heel toe downshift coupled with a stab of the gas pedal would induce a small rear slide (See LSD point above). I increased the rear negative camber and dropped pressures slightly in my rear tyres to make the aforementioned "slide" a little more controllable.


Essentially, that would promote FURTHER understeer using "normal" hamfisted cornering technique....but, would help prevent the "slide" from coming on too suddenly as I jabbed the throttle on a heel 3-2 downshift.

[Conrad]

What about on a staggered RWD setup? Should one run a higher pressure in the rear or the same on all 4?

[MG Man]

higher pressure in the rear would make the rear end more skittish
I tend to run more air up front

[Monk BANzai]

^^They would be....to a point. They both exhibit understeer under light corner throttle application.

E.g.

My FWD car (SSS) used to understeer in sharp corners if the power was applied too early. Applying while steering angle was less, out of the corner, helped. Of course, no front LSD = not good power delivery out of the corner. Braking into the corner helped induce a slide if timed right.

My "turbo AWD" car would understeer in sharp corners with light throttle applied similar to above, or even under medium braking. Power application right at the apex of the corner would hellp exit faster, as the front of the car would literally "claw it's way" out of the corner as my steering angle decreased. A qucik heel toe downshift coupled with a stab of the gas pedal would induce a small rear slide (See LSD point above). I increased the rear negative camber and dropped pressures slightly in my rear tyres to make the aforementioned "slide" a little more controllable.


Essentially, that would promote FURTHER understeer using "normal" hamfisted cornering technique....but, would help prevent the "slide" from coming on too suddenly as I jabbed the throttle on a heel 3-2 downshift.

good points...i did th same with the VR4 but through trial and error...ppl often wondered why my rear tyres had a negative camber...thing is, you cant heel n toe a tiptronic...so you have to time the downshift b4 entering the corner....its not instant as in a manual car...

[MG Man]

it's pretty instant on the MINI, as long as you at the right speed, otherwise the car won;t downshift
upshifts are hit and miss sometimes...I've had it redline in 1st, then tap for 2nd, get nothing, tap again and it just jumps to 3rd...............but generally speaking, it does what it's told............downshifts are particularly rewarding

[wagonrunner]

it's pretty instant on the MINI, as long as you at the right speed, otherwise the car won;t downshift
upshifts are hit and miss sometimes...I've had it redline in 1st, then tap for 2nd, get nothing, tap again and it just jumps to 3rd...............but generally speaking, it does what it's told............downshifts are particularly rewarding

i eh see yuh mention "safe mode". what gives?

[Alpha_2nr]

What about on a staggered RWD setup? Should one run a higher pressure in the rear or the same on all 4?

If the car isn't setup by the man'fr with a staggered wheel setup, then adding one promotes understeer (rear traction biased). I would do either:

- less negative camber at the rear

- higher tyre pressures

Of course this has to be taken relative to a RWD's "tendency" to oversteer/slide if power is applied hard in a corner. Depending on how bad it is, you can adjust.

In my "RWD" car (yes...I *had* all the platforms at one point), I stuck with the same tyre profile and size all round for best turn in response.

it's pretty instant on the MINI, as long as you at the right speed, otherwise the car won;t downshift
upshifts are hit and miss sometimes...I've had it redline in 1st, then tap for 2nd, get nothing, tap again and it just jumps to 3rd...............but generally speaking, it does what it's told............downshifts are particularly rewarding

Even if it's instant, you're assuming the MINI"s tq converter would be in "full lockup" mode right after the shift (CVT or not!).

If it isn't (some converters don't even have a lockup mode) then you still can't upset the car's balance thru power application as well.

good points...i did th same with the VR4 but through trial and error...ppl often wondered why my rear tyres had a negative camber...thing is, you cant heel n toe a tiptronic...so you have to time the downshift b4 entering the corner....its not instant as in a manual car...

Indeed. Does your Legacy have the SI drive feature? If so, that'll help with the throttle response.

Other than that, a simple reflash and tweaking of the WG duties/turbo dynamics on that car would do wonders for your low to mid range....if this "touge" thing is your deal

[MG Man]

Alpha I'd have to say yes and no
You are right: I can't upset the rear with a downshift, only with a combination of downshift and braking.............the car responds better to the basic technique of using the brakes to slow and turn in, and only select a lower gear to match the intended speed
The right timed downshift along with the right prod of the brakes will get the back to step out a bit

Under acceleration, the only way I can tighten a line with throttle is by holding it in gear and giving it dabs of throttle..............this obviously works at higher speeds...........at lower speeds, there's just no kick..................
It's mildly entertaining but always leaves me longing for a proper shifter and an extra pedal

And yes Karl, it threw me into safe mode when it decided it was smarter than me
and yes, shouting at the car will not get it out of safe mode.............which sucks if u were tying to outrun a bandit

[Alpha_2nr]

You are right: I can't upset the rear with a downshift, only with a combination of downshift and braking.............the car responds better to the basic technique of using the brakes to slow and turn in, and only select a lower gear to match the intended speed

Actually come to think of it, that sounds about right! It's more of a "linear" response to braking and turn-in (for want of a better phrase)...yes? And according to some reviews, the MINI Cooper is pretty neutral (for a FWD) in handling right?

and yes, shouting at the car will not get it out of safe mode.............

[MG Man]

lol
the handling is remarkably neutral for front wheel drive
I mean, you can literally aim and the car holds the line you want
I would love to drive a Swift Sport and compare......

[Alpha_2nr]

^^Wham....yuh feelin' bad to go by Lifestyle orrrr????